LaoPo Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) That the Tiemessens traveled with the Chandlers on their way here and who were held hostage for over a year before paying a huge ransom for their release, are foolhardy for thinking of doing the same journey in reverse. Incorrect. The Chandlers were hijacked in an entirely different part of the Indian Ocean and sailing solo; they were sailing between the Seychelles and the African mainland towards Tanzania, just south of Kenya and Somalia but VERY dangerous as well and they KNEW it was dangerous...: Nick Davis, an expert from the Merchant Maritime Warfare Centre in the UK, told the Associated Press the Chandlers "sailed into the lion's den and they did it knowingly and they should be sternly told they have created an international scenario that was entirely avoidable". ITV has reported that the manager of a Seychelles yacht club claims he warned the couple not to make the journey. Rachel Chandler's brother, Stephen Collett, said the couple were "well aware of the risks they were taking", and on their own blog, the Chandlers wrote in 2008 of the "pirate problem" delaying other planned voyages Apart from that, the Chandlers were thaken hostage and the yacht was abandoned and found empty, floating in the ocean. Read more: http://www.thefirstp...e#ixzz1EV7THFaS I can only conclude that it is a mystery to me WHY the Americans sailed "into the lion's den" and did so "knowingly" also and therefore, yes indeed: dumb and stupid, more so than the flotilla, asking for help. An act by such an experienced captain? ...... incomprehensible. Note: for security reasons, the nationalities of the crew on the 30 flotilla yachts are not published, but I wonder WHICH nationalities, other than the Dutch are part of that flotilla... LaoPo Edited February 20, 2011 by LaoPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonrakers Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Google tells me that navies and NATO do send convoys from time to time to provide safe passage. Why could these people not just wait for one of these convoys and tag along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaoPo Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Google tells me that navies and NATO do send convoys from time to time to provide safe passage. Why could these people not just wait for one of these convoys and tag along? Why they didn't stick and/or wait for a convoy is a mystery. I think they thought they would be rather safe, sailing from way up north along the Indian coast and crossing from Mumbai, West towards Salalah, Oman and didn't think the pirates would come that far up north in the Indian Ocean. It appeared to be not safe enough and not North enough. If they would have sailed even more North towards Pakistan and even close to Iran and than cross over to Oman, the journey would have been more safe. It's much longer way but what does one do to be safe ? For better map: http://maps.google.c...2,62.666016&z=5 LaoPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonrakers Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Google tells me that navies and NATO do send convoys from time to time to provide safe passage. Why could these people not just wait for one of these convoys and tag along? Why they didn't stick and/or wait for a convoy is a mystery. I think they thought they would be rather safe, sailing from way up north along the Indian coast and crossing from Mumbai, West towards Salalah, Oman and didn't think the pirates would come that far up north in the Indian Ocean. It appeared to be not safe enough and not North enough. If they would have sailed even more North towards Pakistan and even close to Iran and than cross over to Oman, the journey would have been more safe. It's much longer way but what does one do to be safe ? For better map: http://maps.google.c...2,62.666016&z=5 LaoPo I wasn't talking about these American people, I don't know much about them. I was referring to these Dutch people and their group. If convoys are made available to provide safe passage, then why on earth are they requesting a personal escort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverdie Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Lol...so much sarcasm in this tread. At the end all comes down because guy owns 60 ft yacht and rest of you don't. How could you be so sure Cro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaoPo Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Google tells me that navies and NATO do send convoys from time to time to provide safe passage. Why could these people not just wait for one of these convoys and tag along? Why they didn't stick and/or wait for a convoy is a mystery. I think they thought they would be rather safe, sailing from way up north along the Indian coast and crossing from Mumbai, West towards Salalah, Oman and didn't think the pirates would come that far up north in the Indian Ocean. It appeared to be not safe enough and not North enough. If they would have sailed even more North towards Pakistan and even close to Iran and than cross over to Oman, the journey would have been more safe. It's much longer way but what does one do to be safe ? For better map: http://maps.google.c...2,62.666016&z=5 LaoPo I wasn't talking about these American people, I don't know much about them. I was referring to these Dutch people and their group. If convoys are made available to provide safe passage, then why on earth are they requesting a personal escort? So we misunderstood each other. Where did you find that convoys were/are available ? LaoPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonrakers Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Google tells me that navies and NATO do send convoys from time to time to provide safe passage. Why could these people not just wait for one of these convoys and tag along? Why they didn't stick and/or wait for a convoy is a mystery. I think they thought they would be rather safe, sailing from way up north along the Indian coast and crossing from Mumbai, West towards Salalah, Oman and didn't think the pirates would come that far up north in the Indian Ocean. It appeared to be not safe enough and not North enough. If they would have sailed even more North towards Pakistan and even close to Iran and than cross over to Oman, the journey would have been more safe. It's much longer way but what does one do to be safe ? For better map: http://maps.google.c...2,62.666016&z=5 LaoPo I wasn't talking about these American people, I don't know much about them. I was referring to these Dutch people and their group. If convoys are made available to provide safe passage, then why on earth are they requesting a personal escort? So we misunderstood each other. Where did you find that convoys were/are available ? LaoPo http://www.thecrewreport.com/superyacht_crew_news.asp?id=17242 Read the bottom paragraph. It won't let me copy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 This is lifted from the Nato Shipping Centre website (http://www.shipping.nato.int/): "The danger of piracy in the Gulf of Aden and Somali Basin is high and continues to increase. Naval forces strongly recommend that yachts do not transit this area. Merchant ships use Best Management Practices (BMP) to win time for the naval forces to assist them. With a low freeboard and slow speed, yachts are particularly vulnerable to pirate attack. Any direct response from naval assets will depend on the proximity to the incident and may not occur. BMP3 and the self protection measures described in them were not designed for cruising yachts nor will they be sufficient to prevent boardings by Somali pirates." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 A PDF copy of BMP3 is available to download here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) A PDF copy of Nato advice to yachts (advising them NOT to sail through the affected area) is here. Edited February 20, 2011 by endure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaoPo Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 http://www.thecrewre...ws.asp?id=17242 Read the bottom paragraph. It won't let me copy it. Thanks a lot; they indeed speak of convoys but the present other news sources contradict that message; I wonder if those convoys with guarding patrol boats/navy ships are still going on and/or that they are merely meant for commercial shipping. LaoPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaoPo Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 In the meantime there are now around 100 yachts, stranded. This article was published BEFORE the American yacht was captured: "Rene (Tiemessen - LP) says that, spread between the Maldives and ports in India, are at least 200-250 other cruising sailors, travelling on around 100 yachts, who are seeking protection from navy ships of a similar kind to that afforded to commercial shipping. However, Royal Navy commanders have condemned the flotilla, as there have been repeated warnings for yachties to avoid the area completely. Rene and his group of sailors insist that the situation has changed so radically in the last few months, due partly to the east monsoon being very late, that a new stretch of water - between the latitude of Mumbai and Salalah is the new danger area." <snip> The International Sailing Federation (ISAF) strongly recommends against travelling this route because of the pirate activity in the area, but it doesn't stop dozens of yachts from making the journey. Travelling by convoy has long been recognised as sensible for yachts travelling through the Gulf of Aden, with recent convoys staying strictly in the patrolled zone or hugging the coast of Yemen to remain under the control of the Yemeni Coastguard. Yemen has played a significant role in recent years in the war against piracy, with coordination centres in three Yemeni cities. Tiemessen said some of the yachts are getting desperate. 'Something bad is going to happen,' he said told Sail-World Cruising last week by satellite phone." This was before the hijacking of the American Yacht. From: http://www.sail-worl...vy-escort/80406 LaoPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) If you read the PDF BMP3 manual you'll see that it recommends that ships maintain a high freeboard, use speed and evasive manoeuvring to avoid being boarded by pirates. Yachts, by their very nature, are unable to use any of these tactics to defend themselves. Edited February 20, 2011 by endure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaoPo Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 If you read the PDF BMP3 manual you'll see that it recommends that ships maintain a high freeboard, use speed and evasive manoeuvring to avoid being boarded by pirates. Yachts, by their very nature, are unable to use any of these tactics to defend themselves. Yes, I noticed that Endure...but to be honest, I didn't read all 78 pages into great detail. ..did you? LaoPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckd Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 This might brighten some poster's day. _______________________________________________________ Warship Tracking Yacht Hijacked by Somali Pirates Seized Vessel Reported to be Headed for Somali Coast; Four Americans on Board BY KEVIN DOLAK, LUIS MARTINEZ AND JEREMY HUBBARD Feb. 20, 2011 The U.S. Navy is actively tracking the yacht with four Americans on board that was hijacked by pirates and was reported to be headed for the Somali coast. A Defense Department official told ABC News that the monitoring includes at least one Navy warship and some helicopters that have been trailing the yacht as it makes its way from Yemen to Somalia. A pirate who said he is in contact with the hijackers on the yacht Quest told The Associated Press that a warship and helicopters have been following the vessel. http://abcnews.go.com/International/us-navy-warship-tracking-yacht-hijacked-somali-pirates/story?id=12961526 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEREK-C Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 But now they have told us there is nothing they can do. It’s like asking for help from the police, and being told you are not eligible. Strange that. I always thought the armed forces were on call for private citizens same as the police. " Hello? Is that the 2nd Royal Tank Regiment? MCA here. Khon Kaen Thailand. My neighbour sings out of tune karaoke at all hours and refuses to stop when I politely ask him to. Plus he lets his dog crap right outside my gate. It's a poodle and I frigging hate poodles. I mean they're not real dogs are they? Don't suppose you could send a couple of Challengers round to his place and put the shits up him could you? Cheers. " Loved your comment. After they've finished at your house could you send them on to me. I have the same problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walkabout Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 <br />Google tells me that navies and NATO do send convoys from time to time to provide safe passage. <br /><br />Why could these people not just wait for one of these convoys and tag along?<br /><br /><br /><br /> ... because small boats cannot keep up with the speed of commercial ships. The speed of a displacement hull is function of the length of that hull ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 If you read the PDF BMP3 manual you'll see that it recommends that ships maintain a high freeboard, use speed and evasive manoeuvring to avoid being boarded by pirates. Yachts, by their very nature, are unable to use any of these tactics to defend themselves. Yes, I noticed that Endure...but to be honest, I didn't read all 78 pages into great detail. ..did you? LaoPo Yes I did. I thought it best to actually learn the practical difficulties that the yachts face before posting about it rather than just making assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Google tells me that navies and NATO do send convoys from time to time to provide safe passage. Why could these people not just wait for one of these convoys and tag along? because small boats cannot keep up with the speed of commercial ships. The speed of a displacement hull is function of the length of that hull ... And then there's this from the owners website FAQ on the convoy: Can I sail during the Convoy? No, you can not. That is, if the wind is from behind and you can strictly hold your position yes, but from Salalah to Bab el Mandeb motor/sailing is best. Given that the motor on the Alondra is only 130 HP... we return to the FAQ section to learn: What will be the speed of the Convoy? The speed will depend on the general speed within a group of yachts. Slower yachts start first in groups of 5 or 6 and faster groups will start a little later. Somewhere around 5 knots is likely to be realistic. At that speed, an extra good luck to you, Devi Hope you don't end up in the Somali desert with these bad men with the big guns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancelot Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just what obligation has the Thai Navy to escort a Dutch couple through international waters ? Maybe they should try DEMANDING an escort from the Dutch navy ? Like the English couple they have been warned so it is up to them if they choose to risk it. Sort of what I was thinking. Good luck with demanding any thing in Thaland. Saying pretty please is another matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaoPo Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 This might brighten some poster's day. _______________________________________________________ Warship Tracking Yacht Hijacked by Somali Pirates Seized Vessel Reported to be Headed for Somali Coast; Four Americans on Board http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=12961526 Thanks for that link! If the efforts of the US Navy, now used to try and save the lives of 4 Americans on a single yacht, only could have been used to protect a flotilla for up to 100 yachts, with 200-250 crew, the whole rescue operation would not have been necessary.... "The couple details their travels on a website, where an entry from last December listed their expected stops in 2011 as "Galle, Sri Lanka; Cochin, India; Salalah, Oman; Djibouti, Djibouti; The Suez Canal; and Crete. That gets us to April." That path would have taken them directly into the pirate-infested waters off the coast of Somalia. <snip> "They're right now staring down the barrels of loaded guns, held by children, or held by youths, with whom they cannot communicate, and they're just praying that the ransom is going to get paid, and they have no idea whether they're going to live or die," Burnet told ABC News. If the yacht reaches Somalia, the four hostages would likely be taken inland, which would make a fast resolution much less likely. Burnet added that though the Adams have several strikes against them, including their Western yacht and their Christian ministry, which is despised by Somali jihadists, the couple are far more valuable to them dead than alive. Djibouti.....expected stop in Djibouti ?? ------ Djibouti, which is controlled by Somali clans. Oh, Buchholz: thanks for the touching, almost heartbreaking, consideration for the Dutch baby Devi. I'm sure the parents feel touched, with tears in their eyes, hearing this from your mouth. But of course I didn't expect anything else from you; typical your style, sensitive as you are, always showing true considerate feelings for your fellow human beings. But, in case you didn't know; the flotilla of some 100 yachts didn't act irresponsible, since the flotilla is still in save areas in the Maldives and India. So the chance that baby Devi will end up in Somali Pirates' hands is small. But thanks anyway for your touching consideration. I hope the Americans will be freed whilst still on the ocean before they are forced to the mainland....and my feelings for them are sincere no matter that I think they acted irresponsible . LaoPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckd Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I think they (the Americans) acted STUPIDLY. However, the US government doesn't take kindly to somebody taking our citizens hostage, regardless of how STUPIDLY they have acted. Losing them would not look good on Obama's CV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewt Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 This dutch couple should be charged for putting a children at risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaoPo Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) ...hmmm..I wonder what happened to at least 8 posts, now disappeared. Must have been more, overly friendly posts, addressed at the Dutch spokesman for the 100+ yacht flotilla, waiting, hoping and praying for a solution. But I suggest to all posters to pay a little more attention to those 4 unfortunate sailors who are now hijacked by nasty and very dangerous Somali pirates and for Heaven's Sake, I really hope and pray the US navy is able to free them without any casualties. :jap: This topic is of little interest at this stage until something new happens. Topic about the 4 Americans and latest news: http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4234301 LaoPo Edited February 21, 2011 by LaoPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaoPo Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 NOTE: I keep on receiving messages like: "reply to a topic that you have subscribed to..........." in several different topics, including this one, but I don't see anything. Anybody else the same? LaoPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) If the efforts of the US Navy, now used to try and save the lives of 4 Americans on a single yacht, only could have been used to protect a flotilla for up to 100 yachts, with 200-250 crew, the whole rescue operation would not have been necessary.... If none of the yachtsmen were transiting the area... particularly at their projected 5 knots speed... no rescue operation for anyone would be necessary Oh, Buchholz: thanks for the touching, almost heartbreaking, consideration for the Dutch baby Devi. I'm sure the parents feel touched, with tears in their eyes, hearing this from your mouth. You and they are welcome. Hopefully, it might help them to reconsider their "stupid" (LaoPo's favorite word) idea. But, in case you didn't know; the flotilla of some 100 yachts didn't act irresponsible, since the flotilla is still in save areas in the Maldives and India. So the chance that baby Devi will end up in Somali Pirates' hands is small. My post was written with the presumption that the convoy won't wait in the Maldives until the whole Somali pirate issue is resolved (in whatever future year that occurs). It'd be great if they did or just scrapped the whole idea of transiting the area altogether, but until they do, the chances of Devi ending up with the Somali pirates is far from small. Edited February 21, 2011 by Buchholz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaoPo Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) If the efforts of the US Navy, now used to try and save the lives of 4 Americans on a single yacht, only could have been used to protect a flotilla for up to 100 yachts, with 200-250 crew, the whole rescue operation would not have been necessary.... If none of the yachtsmen were transiting the area... particularly at their projected 5 knots speed... no rescue operation for anyone would be necessary Oh, Buchholz: thanks for the touching, almost heartbreaking, consideration for the Dutch baby Devi. I'm sure the parents feel touched, with tears in their eyes, hearing this from your mouth. You and they are welcome. Hopefully, it might help them to reconsider their "stupid" (LaoPo's favorite word) idea. But, in case you didn't know; the flotilla of some 100 yachts didn't act irresponsible, since the flotilla is still in save areas in the Maldives and India. So the chance that baby Devi will end up in Somali Pirates' hands is small. My post was written with the presumption that the convoy won't wait in the Maldives until the whole Somali pirate issue is resolved (in whatever future year that occurs). It'd be great if they did or just scrapped the whole idea of transiting the area altogether, but until they do, the chances of Devi ending up with the Somali pirates is far from small. "stupid": I suggest you read back in your own topic and look WHO used the word "stupid" first (not me) and who and how many times bad and nasty words were used, addressed at the organisers of the flotilla. But, strange enough I don't see any of those bashing members, now bashing the same words at the Americans...isn't that weird? Now, since there's no news about the Flotilla I suggest you pay a little more attention to your own fellow Americans, with their lives in serious danger, instead blah blah even more in this topic, about a flotilla at ease. But, you and I know it's not about the flotilla or the Americans...is it? It's a personal thing....itching your back.... Don't bother to answer BH; there are more important things in life than bitching the flotilla leader or LaoPo; your fellow Americans for instance. Try to pray :jap: and pay more attention to the ones in REAL danger but I don't see you post there at all*....no interest in your own fellow Americans BH ? of course not, your own topic is more important...but I didn't expect anything else from you... * LaoPo Edited February 22, 2011 by LaoPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 "stupid": I suggest you read back in your own topic and look WHO used the word "stupid" first (not me) and who and how many times bad and nasty words were used, addressed at the organisers of the flotilla. I just did what you did. Rather than take the higher ground when "stupid" was used, you took it and began using the same word in nearly every sentence, even after it was brought to your attention in my post recommending foolhardy or any other less abrasive word. Still, I'll return to the high ground and return to less aggressive verbage. I just thought that maybe bringing it to your attention a second time might have done the job. Now, since there's no news about the Flotilla I suggest you pay a little more attention to your own fellow Americans, with their lives in serious danger, instead blah blah even more in this topic, about a flotilla at ease. But, you and I know it's not about the flotilla or the Americans...is it? It's a personal thing....itching your back.... Unlike you, the nationalities of any of the yachtsmen doesn't mean anything to me, let alone "itching my back." That's why you see me continually condemning all of them and their foolhardy endeavors. You seem to be the only one focusing now on which country they come from. Lastly, try and raise the bar as well in moving away from your childish posts as to which thread something is posted on and who started them. It matters not to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiagoBras Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Definite over the top arrogance! Many options for them, this is NOT one of them. Quite some Dutch people just think they truly are the centre of the world. Im Dutch.. and they are idiots. Let them pay for their own safety, why would others have to pay for their trip. Luckily you ve got some reasonable ones as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckd Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 "stupid": I suggest you read back in your own topic and look WHO used the word "stupid" first (not me) and who and how many times bad and nasty words were used, addressed at the organisers of the flotilla. But, strange enough I don't see any of those bashing members, now bashing the same words at the Americans...isn't that weird? Errr, you must have missed post number 172. Note: The original post was cropped as post number 172 is applicable to only this part of his original, quoted post. Forgive me if I have sinned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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