Jatuporn Says Abhisit, Suthep 'Collude To Kill People'

[Buchholz]

ABAC Poll shows Peau Thai in a slight lead this week.

ABAC Poll: People keep faith with PM Abhisit

BANGKOK, 18 March 2011 (NNT) – Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva has proved more popular in the current censure debate than the opposition’s team leader Mingkwan Saengsuwan, according to a recent survey by Assumption University Research Center (ABAC Poll).

ABAC Poll conducted the survey with 948 respondents in 17 provinces across the country regarding the Prime Minister’s popularity after three days of the no-confidence debate.

The poll showed that more than half of the respondents or 54% still kept faith with the incumbent prime minister preferring him to take helm of the kingdom while only 30.9% gave support to the opposition’s debate team leader Mingkwan from Pheu Thai Party.

In terms of overall performances in the debate of Prime Minister Abhisit and Mr Mingkwan, 53.5% of the respondents viewed that Prime Minister Abhisit could do better than Mr Mingkwan while 30.6% did not think so.

The prime minister also gained higher votes for his attention to people’s problems at 53.5%.

Moreover, the majority, or 52.2%, of the respondents deemed the information supplied by the prime minister more reliable than that of the opposition debater.

-- NNT 2011-03-18

[AZBill]

Blah blah blah blah! Do these guys ever shut up?

[jdinasia]

Blah blah blah blah! Do these guys ever shut up?

Jatuporn? Shut up? Not while he has parliamentary immunity!

[Buchholz]

Blah blah blah blah! Do these guys ever shut up?

Jatuporn? Shut up? Not while he has parliamentary immunity!

"...and another thing..."

[hanuman1]

Their only hope of successfully bringing down the government was through violence

Or an election. Which is what it was all about.

they could have had that before it turned as violent as it did

Abhisit offered an election, on TV in front of millions, Thaksin declined by phone through his proxy............

Going on about how the redshirts 'could have had an election' if only they had taken Abhisit's offer is simplistic and a bit naive, in my opinion.

Abhisit didn't offer an election. He offered the PROMISE of an election, and that is all the red shirt negotiators would have left with had they disbanded the demonstrators and gone home.

The whole problem was - and still is - that the red shirt movement didn't trust the government (whose fault is that?), so a promise wasn't a substantive enough result for them at the time.

In the intervening 6 months, all manner of events - planned or otherwise - could have derailed the government's promise of an election and the demonstrations would have been pointless, from the redshirt point of view.

As for your Thaksin proxy thing, I'll file that under 'supposition' unless you can attach any actual facts to it.

[rubl]

As for your Thaksin proxy thing, I'll file that under 'supposition' unless you can attach any actual facts to it.

Try wikileaks if you can access them

[Emptyset]

If only it was, then I think the Reds would have more support than they do. Unfortunately the UDD faction of the Red Shirts decided it wasn't - twice. If they had decided otherwise, then we probably wouldn't be having these discussions or having to deal with emotional protesters, some of whom have had friends and relatives taken from them, being fired up every fortnight by individuals whose track record of telling the truth is even worse than Suthep's.

Yeah, but in this case, most of what Jatuporn said is true as he was quoting directly from the DSI documents, who despite their alleged bias, seem to have investigated in an independent and fair manner based on the document I've seen. Where Jatuporn goes wrong is trying to blame Abhisit and Suthep for directly ordering the killing. Not only is there no proof of this, but why would they want to? Jatuporn would've been perfectly credible during the censure if he'd merely read from the DSI documents and not constantly mentioned Suthep's supposed role.

However, Suthep still seems to be denying soldiers were responsible for any of the deaths at all. He claimed that Jatuporn had ordered the deaths, including Seh Daeng. So surely Suthep is at least as mendacious as Jatuporn when we look at what was said in this debate alone? Suthep said troops were nowhere near Wat Pathumwan and that even though those who died were killed by military bullets, they were killed by weapons stolen by the red shirts from the military. He also said Romklao was killed by a bullet, when I thought he was killed by a grenade? Seems to me that both sides are liars and Suthep is at least as bad as Jatuporn.

One thing that Suthep said was interesting, though. He said there are four groups of men in black, Seh Daeng's group, a "secret group" for special operations, a group called the Saming Dam, who specialised in bomb making and a group called the Ser Dam, lead by Lt-Gen Thuanthong Suwannathat. That was interesting, because if you'd read my previous posts on this, I claimed that his relative, Lt-Gen Pruen Suwannathat, a class 10 general close to Thaksin, was one of the generals who planned the operation of the men in black at Kok Wua.

Mind you Tuanthong looks a bit too old to be leading the operation himself:

He's the one at the front, on the left. I believe he's a senator but he's going to run as a PT MP in the forthcoming election, in Lopburi. Anyway, if Suthep is sure it was him, there should be an arrest warrant issued for him, surely?

Edit: I suppose Rubl and jdinasia were pleased that Suthep accused the reds of being communists and using communist tactics! He must have read that Asia Times report too 555.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Emptyset

[Emptyset]

Incidentally, an ABAC poll released today of who people would like to see as PM, if not Abhisit:

Purachai: 41.2% (for) 58.8% (against)

Khunying Sudarat 38.4%

Chuan Leekpai 38.4%

Korn Chatikavanij 35.2%

Mingkwan Sangsuwan 34.7%

Somkid Jatusripitak 32.7%

And not forgetting:

Newin 20.8% (for) 79.2% (against)

Suthep 15.1 84.9

[Buchholz]

Their only hope of successfully bringing down the government was through violence

Or an election. Which is what it was all about.

they could have had that before it turned as violent as it did

Abhisit offered an election, on TV in front of millions, Thaksin declined by phone through his proxy............

Going on about how the redshirts 'could have had an election' if only they had taken Abhisit's offer is simplistic and a bit naive, in my opinion.

Abhisit didn't offer an election. He offered the PROMISE of an election, and that is all the red shirt negotiators would have left with had they disbanded the demonstrators and gone home.

They would have left with the high ground and been able to hold Ahbisit to his promise.

If he broke it, then he would be looking as pathetic as the Red Shirts are now.

No, instead, they took the low road, refused, and ended up committing the most violent upheaval in Thailand in decades.

[elshaheen]

He reminds to much of Fox News Glen Beck. Though many Thai find Jatuporn to be quite Entertaining and said they find him to be a rambling idiot.

[otherstuff1957]

Incidentally, an ABAC poll released today of who people would like to see as PM, if not Abhisit:

Purachai: 41.2% (for) 58.8% (against)

Khunying Sudarat 38.4%

Chuan Leekpai 38.4%

Korn Chatikavanij 35.2%

Mingkwan Sangsuwan 34.7%

Somkid Jatusripitak 32.7%

And not forgetting:

Newin 20.8% (for) 79.2% (against)

Suthep 15.1 84.9

Purachai! God help us. He may not be corrupt, but he's the most xenophobic Thai politician around. Things would start going badly for all resident Farangs if he became PM.

[hanuman1]

Or an election. Which is what it was all about.

they could have had that before it turned as violent as it did

Abhisit offered an election, on TV in front of millions, Thaksin declined by phone through his proxy............

Going on about how the redshirts 'could have had an election' if only they had taken Abhisit's offer is simplistic and a bit naive, in my opinion.

Abhisit didn't offer an election. He offered the PROMISE of an election, and that is all the red shirt negotiators would have left with had they disbanded the demonstrators and gone home.

They would have left with the high ground and been able to hold Ahbisit to his promise.

If he broke it, then he would be looking as pathetic as the Red Shirts are now.

No, instead, they took the low road, refused, and ended up committing the most violent upheaval in Thailand in decades.

Sweetheart, you really mustn't go over-simplifying things again.

If he broke his promise - either intentionally or otherwise - he would not necessarily have looked pathetic at all. Maybe he would in your shiny eyes, Snookums, but let's not forget that if there's one thing politicians the world over excel at, it is avoiding blame.

And please try to calm down a bit. I do so worry for your blood pressure.

P.S. Are we speaking again now? I think it's far too soon....

[brahmburgers]

The Reds did have a generous offer of dissolution of Parliament and subsequent early election - TWICE. The 2nd time, the process would have taken place in a few months hence. They stupidly turned it down for one or combination of the following:

1. their puppetmaster didn't want to be seen as agreeing with anything the gov't proposed

2. the Reds wanted confrontation, similar to 11 months prior. They knew confrontation would put them in the public eye and would likely turn the populace against the gov't.

The Abhisit gov't didn't play along with the Red's wishes for early confrontation, so the Reds were frustrated - resorting to taking pot shots at the railway landing (killed one woman there), raiding the hospital, and other such goading. After many weeks went by, the gov't belatedly acted, and did a rather good clean-up job - something they probably should have done a lot sooner.

Jatuporn is grasping at straws. He's a poser, a liar, and an all-around unattractive specimen - doing whatever he can to be a pain-in-the-you-know-what. By mentioning foreign passports and Wikileaks, he's treading on very thin ice - as the #1 family in Thailand could be besmirched by the same mud-slinging rhetoric.

[rubl]

Incidentally, an ABAC poll released today of who people would like to see as PM, if not Abhisit:

Purachai: 41.2% (for) 58.8% (against)

Khunying Sudarat 38.4%

Chuan Leekpai 38.4%

Korn Chatikavanij 35.2%

Mingkwan Sangsuwan 34.7%

Somkid Jatusripitak 32.7%

And not forgetting:

Newin 20.8% (for) 79.2% (against)

Suthep 15.1 84.9

Haven't seen the poll newsflash yet, but

"k. Purachai is known as "Mr. Clean". When Thaksin set up Purachai as Secretary General of the Thai Rak Thai party, hopes were high that maybe Thaksin's pledges of being "righteous" and anti-corruption might result in some good progress."

and

"However, a lot of frictions developed between Purachai and Thaksin's cronies, as regards corruption. Purachai was realistic in some ways, understanding the political realities, but he drew the lines much clearer than Thaksin did, and maintained a hard line. For the first couple of years, Purachai was also the voice Thaksin needed to hear, and kept Thaksin from straying too far with his power. Thaksin and Purachai remained on good terms for quite some time, but eventually Purachai was massively outgunned and marginalized.

Purachai drew heavy criticism from the male sex tourist and expat community for his curtailing of nightlife closing hours and entertainment zoning, though in contrast this was extremely popular with the Thai population who felt that Thailand's vice was getting way out of control. This was the so-called "social order" campaign.

Purachai eventually resigned from politics in 2005, but he had already been marginalized into oblivion long before that. (He was also a leading candidate to become the next Prime Minister, according to some opinion polls with Thai people, beating out even the leader of the opposition Democrat Party, but Prime Ministers are voted in by Parliament, not the general public.)"

http://www.thailandguru.com/thaksin-shinawatra-military-coup.html

[rubl]

He reminds to much of Fox News Glen Beck. Though many Thai find Jatuporn to be quite Entertaining and said they find him to be a rambling idiot.

Funny you'd say that.

From the current main page of www.borowitzreport.com

"Afraid to Watch the News, Millions Turn to Fox

Channel Offers Welcome Break from Reality, Psychologists Say"

[Buchholz]

they could have had that before it turned as violent as it did

Abhisit offered an election, on TV in front of millions, Thaksin declined by phone through his proxy............

Going on about how the redshirts 'could have had an election' if only they had taken Abhisit's offer is simplistic and a bit naive, in my opinion.

Abhisit didn't offer an election. He offered the PROMISE of an election, and that is all the red shirt negotiators would have left with had they disbanded the demonstrators and gone home.

They would have left with the high ground and been able to hold Ahbisit to his promise.

If he broke it, then he would be looking as pathetic as the Red Shirts are now.

No, instead, they took the low road, refused, and ended up committing the most violent upheaval in Thailand in decades.

you really mustn't go over-simplifying things again.

If he broke his promise - either intentionally or otherwise - he would not necessarily have looked pathetic at all. Maybe he would in your eyes, but let's not forget that if there's one thing politicians the world over excel at, it is avoiding blame.

He would have looked as pathetic as Thaksin's promises to quit politics.

The Red Shirt refusal to the elections put the spotlight instead on them, when a simple acceptance would have put the onus and light on Abhisit.

To refuse to agree to what they purportedly wanted (elections) and especially in the manner in which it occurred ended up with the Reds looking like the immovable object... the non-compromisers, thus throwing away the opportunity to gain the advantage.

Oh well, bad advice was given to the Reds.

Live and learn for them.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Buchholz

[Emptyset]

Purachai! God help us. He may not be corrupt, but he's the most xenophobic Thai politician around. Things would start going badly for all resident Farangs if he became PM.

Yeah, funny that he hates foreigners but spends most of his time in New Zealand where he bought land. But I doubt his new party will do well. Probably take some votes off NPP and Dems, but it seems unlikely they'll win more than a handful of seats, if any. They probably won't run in many seats anyway. Funny because my friend just told me ASTV is attacking Purachai now, saying he and Patcharawat are gay lovers. Obviously ASTV calls anyone they don't like gay, but it's especially amusing as I didn't think Purachai liked gays too much.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Emptyset

[Buchholz]

Haven't seen the poll newsflash yet, but

"k. Purachai is known as "Mr. Clean". When Thaksin set up Purachai as Secretary General of the Thai Rak Thai party, hopes were high that maybe Thaksin's pledges of being "righteous" and anti-corruption might result in some good progress."

and

"However, a lot of frictions developed between Purachai and Thaksin's cronies, as regards corruption. Purachai was realistic in some ways, understanding the political realities, but he drew the lines much clearer than Thaksin did, and maintained a hard line. For the first couple of years, Purachai was also the voice Thaksin needed to hear, and kept Thaksin from straying too far with his power. Thaksin and Purachai remained on good terms for quite some time, but eventually Purachai was massively outgunned and marginalized.

Purachai eventually resigned from politics in 2005, but he had already been marginalized into oblivion long before that. (He was also a leading candidate to become the next Prime Minister, according to some opinion polls with Thai people, beating out even the leader of the opposition Democrat Party, but Prime Ministers are voted in by Parliament, not the general public.)"

Creative math helped with his winning margin...

quote

Purachai is Bangkok's favourite for PM

BANGKOK: -- Purachai Piumsomboon, former deputy prime minister who resigned from Thai politics in January 2005, has emerged as the favourite choice for prime minister in a survey conducted by the Abac Poll.

The Assumption University survey – better known as the Abac Poll – interviewed 1,750 Thais and 558 foreigners in Bangkok and surrounding areas. It found that 41.7 per cent of the respondents wanted Mr. Purachai, dubbed "Mr. Clean" for his staunch anti-corruption line while served during the first term of prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, to become the new prime minister.

link

unquote

So you have 41.7% of the respondents wanting Purachai, 37.7% wanting Anand and 34.6% wanting Abhisit.

That totals 114% of the respondents on my calculator.

Two other worthwhile posts aspect from that same earlier thread:

If the poll suggests Bangkokians prefer Purachai to be PM then it doesn't say much for their intelligence.

1 If he's so moral why did he do nothing about Thaksin's purchase of Alpine golf course from Sanoh Thiantong? The land was plainly left to a temple by the lady benefactor. Could it have been because he was Thaksin's employee, both Shinawatra and TRT.

2. When the Deep south erupted his response was, "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". No attempt to understand or get to grips with the underlying causes, not a Buddhist response.

3 An aloof man, when Minister Of Interior it was very difficult to see him, surrounded by his clique. He has no political base and thus would be helpless as PM.

Historical footnote: While Purachai was minister of the interior, he refused to sign any of the hundreds of applications for permanent residency submitted during his entire term of office.

Purachai Is Bangkok's Favourite For PM

2007-06-17

Edited March 18, 2011 by Buchholz

[Emptyset]

He would have looked as pathetic as Thaksin's promises to quit politics.

The Red Shirt refusal to the elections put the spotlight instead on them, when a simple acceptance would have put the onus and light on Abhisit.

To refuse to agree to what they purportedly wanted (elections) and especially in the manner in which it occurred ended up with the Reds looking like the immovable object... the non-compromisers, thus throwing away the opportunity to gain the advantage.

Oh well, bad advice was given to the Reds.

Live and learn for them.

They should've accepted immediately for the simple reason that having elections a few months earlier isn't worth anyone dying for.

That said, they didn't actually reject the offer, did they? They made three counter-demands, as Abhisit didn't trust them to go home even if he accepted their demands (this is my assumption) he decided to call off the negotiations altogether. Reds didn't trust him, as noted, and that's why what happened happened.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Emptyset

[Emptyset]

Haven't seen the poll newsflash yet, but

Got it from here: http://www.ryt9.com/s/abcp/1111236

[hanuman1]

He would have looked as pathetic as Thaksin's promises to quit politics.

The Red Shirt refusal to the elections put the spotlight instead on them, when a simple acceptance would have put the onus and light on Abhisit.

To refuse to agree to what they purportedly wanted (elections) and especially in the manner in which it occurred ended up with the Reds looking like the immovable object... the non-compromisers, thus throwing away the opportunity to gain the advantage.

Oh well, bad advice was given to the Reds.

Live and learn for them.

They should've accepted immediately for the simple reason that having elections a few months earlier isn't worth anyone dying for.

That said, they didn't actually reject the offer, did they? They made three counter-demands, as Abhisit didn't trust them to go home even if he accepted their demands (this is my assumption) he decided to call off the negotiations altogether. Reds didn't trust him, as noted, and that's why what happened happened.

They should've accepted immediately for the simple reason that having elections a few months earlier isn't worth anyone dying for.

Presuming the early election could have been 100% guaranteed, they would still have needed the gift of hindsight in order to accept for the reason you suggested.

[rubl]

They should've accepted immediately for the simple reason that having elections a few months earlier isn't worth anyone dying for.

That said, they didn't actually reject the offer, did they? They made three counter-demands, as Abhisit didn't trust them to go home even if he accepted their demands (this is my assumption) he decided to call off the negotiations altogether. Reds didn't trust him, as noted, and that's why what happened happened.

Hindsight, hindsight. What if we were clairvoyant ?

From 2010-05-04 Election offer in Thailand may end Red Shirt deadlock

"Dr Weng said that he would trust Mr Abhisit to call the election as promised, and he was not concerned about either the forthcoming budget round or the planned reshuffle in the senior ranks of the military due before November. “That’s not my concern,” he said. “My concern is that we should have a collective resolution to this political crisis.”

Another UDD protest leader, Karkaew Pikulthong, said that he thought the November date too distant. “My point of view is that I’m not happy with this offer — it’s too long,” he said. “The Red Shirts’ feelings, since the deaths on April 10, they are still very angry with Mr Abhisit. They are ready to sacrifice themselves. They just want to win.”"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article7115198.ece

(edit: by the 18th of May things looked a wee bit different of course, with even k. Nattawut saying 'if we allow things to go on like this, we don't know how many more lives will be lost')

Edited March 18, 2011 by rubl

[jdinasia]

Since the reds started throwing petrol bombs on April 9th (this is discounting grenade attacks scattered around from even before things got started), it doesn't take any hindsight to see that they were going for a 'blood on the streets' crackdown, which in all previous cases in BKK had brought down the government in power almost immediately.

BANGKOK: Thailand's anti-government "Red Shirts" on Tuesday rejected the prime minister's offer of more talks and said negotiations had failed because he would not meet their 15-day deadline to call elections.

Leaders of the red-clad protest movement have held two rounds of televised talks with premier Abhisit Vejjajiva since Sunday, but they appeared to make little progress towards ending weeks of disruptive mass rallies in Bangkok.

"Negotiations have completely failed and have already ended. No more talks, everything is finished," a defiant Red Shirts leader Jatuporn Prompan told reporters, refusing Abhisit's offer to hold fresh discussions on Thursday.

http://www.channelne...1046795/1/.html

the news article is just to clear up some points from above about WHO called off negotiations and why.

edit --- Weng etc's remarks were after Abhisit's SECOND (and earlier on the calendar) offer for new elections in 2010.

Edited March 18, 2011 by jdinasia

[Buchholz]

The Reds did have a generous offer of dissolution of Parliament and subsequent early election - TWICE. The 2nd time, the process would have taken place in a few months hence. They stupidly turned it down for one or combination of the following:

1. their puppetmaster didn't want to be seen as agreeing with anything the gov't proposed

2. the Reds wanted confrontation, similar to 11 months prior. They knew confrontation would put them in the public eye and would likely turn the populace against the gov't.

It also was too late to suit their taste for some key government appointments.

[Buchholz]

They would have left with the high ground and been able to hold Ahbisit to his promise.

If he broke it, then he would be looking as pathetic as the Red Shirts are now.

No, instead, they took the low road, refused, and ended up committing the most violent upheaval in Thailand in decades.

you really mustn't go over-simplifying things again.

If he broke his promise - either intentionally or otherwise - he would not necessarily have looked pathetic at all. Maybe he would in your eyes, but let's not forget that if there's one thing politicians the world over excel at, it is avoiding blame.

He would have looked as pathetic as Thaksin's promises to quit politics.

The Red Shirt refusal to the elections put the spotlight instead on them, when a simple acceptance would have put the onus and light on Abhisit.

To refuse to agree to what they purportedly wanted (elections) and especially in the manner in which it occurred ended up with the Reds looking like the immovable object... the non-compromisers, thus throwing away the opportunity to gain the advantage.

Oh well, bad advice was given to the Reds.

Live and learn for them.

And anyway, they didn't turn down that which they purportedly wanted (elections), because they didn't purportedly want just elections, they wanted immediate elections.

Yes, an uncompromising and unrealistic demand for immediate elections... and a host of other demands.

[TAWP]

And anyway, they didn't turn down that which they purportedly wanted (elections), because they didn't purportedly want just elections, they wanted immediate elections.

They wanted to define all the conditions and set all the demands. They forgot what 'negotiations' mean and got upset when it would mean they would have to 'give some to gain some'.

But as it was ultimately a struggle to get 'their' guy into the high position, in waiting for the armed revolution their 'president to be' was going to bring, they could not compromise. They could not giver up that chess-move since to many of the following depended on it.

Edited March 18, 2011 by TAWP

[Buchholz]

* self-deleted reply due to hanuman's post being mod-deleted.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Buchholz

[Jai Dee]

Trolling/baiting posts have been deleted from this topic.

Further behaviour of this nature will result in suspension of posting rights.

[hanuman1]

Err....okay. How about this.

Thaksin is the devil incarnate. Redshirts are mindless idiots. PTP wants to destroy the nation. UDD are terrorists.

Is that more to everyone's liking?

Byeeeeee.....

[Emptyset]

Err....okay. How about this.

Thaksin is the devil incarnate. Redshirts are mindless idiots. PTP wants to destroy the nation. UDD are terrorists.

Spot on mate! Best post ever! If anyone wants to know the truth about the situation beyond the Amsterdam red terrorist propaganda, I'll simply refer them to this post! Well done for seeing through the Thaksin-sponsored lies.