Israeli forces kill two Palestinians in Gaza

[coma]

Bashing Israel ?? How do you come to that conclusion ?? I am not bashing Israel. I love the place. I just simply cut and pasted UN Resolutions, as above, to be objective and even up the arguement. So you are saying all the UN resolutions are null and void, and that these incidents did not occue at all because the report is flawed?? Is that correct ??

One should not jump to conclusions so eagerly. As the Thais would say. Jai Yen Yen Kuffki.

Is it a case of split personality disorder? or have you forgotten which name you used to post other posts?, since you have 2 at least.

What i am saying for the 3rd time is that those resolutions are based on the wrong facts and must be revisited with new evidence coming to light.

The report is flawed and incidents which took place were different to what has been reported.

Now the actual author admitted the truth, which he has been denying for a while.

He also went further and made a comment and Israel itself did an investigations while Hamas did nothing and continues in the same fashion.

To be fair, resolutions should be put on hold and new evidence must be considered and verified-thats just common sense and normal legal procedure.

HOWEVER as you sated you posted resolutions to be objective and you are up for an argument so why would you bring up resolutions against ONLY Israel and since you are a "lover " now why have you not posted resolutions against Hamas, even though i have asked you.

Why have you not replied to what resolutions Hamas has complied with ever? as a matter of interest not only Hamas but Palestine as whole, what resolution or agreements have they honored and did not breach?

Oslo agreement-breached

Truce agreement-breached

Anti-Israel propaganda -breached

All UN resolutions-ignored and breached

so please be objective and respond to the actual questions with answers not another set of questions

Hamas ha been deemed a criminal / terrorist organisation. Therefore they do not need to comply with any law. Otherwise they would not be called criminals. They would be law abiding citizens to the contrary. You don;t see any UN resolUtions put out to Al qaeda now ,do you?

Secondly. Being objective means showing another side to the debate. The post I referred to was saying that Hamas never listens to the UN. To be objective to that I would need to show that the opposite side of that arguement , that Israel also snubs its nose at the UN. Correct?

And I will state again that just because the report is flawed it doesn't automatically mean the incidents ,or similar incidents, that forced the need for the resolutions I refer to did not happen at all. But I agree that they need to be re evaluated also.

Lastley. The sentence you wrote that I highlighted, I don't not know what you are on about. Good night Kuff Kuff.

Hold on right there on the first sentence.

But Hamas is the current government, and hence they are criminals and do not need to comply, why should Israel accomodate criminal state?or state run by the criminals?

Why should Israel treat it any other way but ONLY as criminals as this is what they are according to your post?

Plain and simple. At the moment the Palestinians, particulary in Gaza, see Hamas as the lesser of two evils between them and the Israeli government. Israel has tried suppressing Hamas by force but it simply hasn't worked. If Israel got smart and worked on a 'hearts and minds' campaign with the Palestinian people then they may find that it will be them that will oust Hamas for them. That is what is required in Palestine more than any other country going through the process. A popular uprising. Never going to happen by Israel continually using excessive force in a pride saving tit for tat bitch fight. . NEVER . It is time for Israel to grow up and show itself to be the more mature out of the two. Not continue on this road that shows them to be an lowly equal to Hamas.

[kuffki]

Coma, number 1 we are not talking about what Palestinians see or do not see, nor are we talking about what they feel or do not feel. We are talking about UN and compliance.

So please do not change the subject!!!

Furthermore, why do you think it's ok for Palestinians to be killed by their own, yet not ok for Israel to do the same in self defense.

[Wallaby]

Have you missed Jings underlined word? it said Hamas, it did not say Israel Mr Neutral

Secondly, have you failed to read Jings post 47?

so why would Israel cooperate with UN, when even the report's author now admits being wrong?

So let me underline another key point which you possibly missed which was

"While Israel has shown to probe itself "to a significant dgree" over Gaza war actions, Goldstone writes, Hamas, who has been in control of the coastal enclave since 2007, "has done nothing."

once again you ARE missing a point or a few. Resolutions were mainly based on the report which is now admittedly incorrect.

That means resolutions are not based on the actual facts, which in turn means need to be re-examined.

However since you are to busy again bashing Israel, could you please provide UN resolutions for Hamas and which ones they have cooperated on.?EVER

Comprehension wasn't a strong point for you was it?

[flying]

once again you ARE missing a point or a few. Resolutions were mainly based on the report which is now admittedly incorrect.

May I ask which report you folks are discussing?

Thanks

[kuffki]

The goldstone report

[flying]

The goldstone report

Then I dont understand the references to previous resolutions mentioned being based on any facts from the Goldstone Report.

I have been reading the Goldstone report today out of curiosity

A-HRC-12-48_ADVANCE1.pdf

The report seems very specific in time period... & is long after the resolutions mentioned.

So those resolutions could not have based on the Goldstone report.

I am not saying the resolutions were right or wrong just that they could not have been based on the report.

To implement its mandate, the Mission determined that it was required to consider any

actions by all parties that might have constituted violations of international human rights law or

international humanitarian law. The mandate also required it to review related actions in the

entire Occupied Palestinian Territory and Israel.

With regard to temporal scope, the Mission decided to focus primarily on events, actions or

circumstances occurring since 19 June 2008, when a ceasefire was agreed between the

Government of Israel and Hamas. The Mission has also taken into consideration matters

occurring after the end of military operations that constitute continuing human rights and

international humanitarian law violations related to or as a consequence of the military

operations, up to 31 July 2009.

The Mission also analysed the historical context of the events that led to the military

operations in Gaza between 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009 and the links between these

operations and overarching Israeli policies vis-à-vis the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

[Steely Dan]

Plain and simple. At the moment the Palestinians, particulary in Gaza, see Hamas as the lesser of two evils between them and the Israeli government. Israel has tried suppressing Hamas by force but it simply hasn't worked. If Israel got smart and worked on a 'hearts and minds' campaign with the Palestinian people then they may find that it will be them that will oust Hamas for them. That is what is required in Palestine more than any other country going through the process. A popular uprising. Never going to happen by Israel continually using excessive force in a pride saving tit for tat bitch fight. . NEVER . It is time for Israel to grow up and show itself to be the more mature out of the two. Not continue on this road that shows them to be an lowly equal to Hamas.

No it's neither plain nor simple. Hamas may have initially come to power by the ballot box, but Islamic radicals don't actually believe in democracy so participating in an election was a tactical decision and does not mean they will ever be prepared to risk losing power through the ballot box - look at the charade which was the last Iranian election for another example.

The current flare up in hostilities is entirely down to Hamas trying to deflect attention onto Israel in view of they themselves being deeply unpopular, the same tactics used by middle eastern despots. I actually agree with you that Israel would do well to keep a low profile, but things don't happen in a vacuum and every terrorist attack on Israeli citizens boosts the right wing at the expense of the left. Israel also has proportional representation, which gives a disproportionate say to some of the fringe parties, who will be demanding action along the lines of the Cast lead reprisals.

Hamas of course will be actively seeking escalation as they are essentially an extention of the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt.

[coma]

Have you missed Jings underlined word? it said Hamas, it did not say Israel Mr Neutral

Secondly, have you failed to read Jings post 47?

so why would Israel cooperate with UN, when even the report's author now admits being wrong?

So let me underline another key point which you possibly missed which was

"While Israel has shown to probe itself "to a significant dgree" over Gaza war actions, Goldstone writes, Hamas, who has been in control of the coastal enclave since 2007, "has done nothing."

once again you ARE missing a point or a few. Resolutions were mainly based on the report which is now admittedly incorrect.

That means resolutions are not based on the actual facts, which in turn means need to be re-examined.

However since you are to busy again bashing Israel, could you please provide UN resolutions for Hamas and which ones they have cooperated on.?EVER

Comprehension wasn't a strong point for you was it?

That. And one just cannot negotiate with this one. A waste of space and time.

[geriatrickid]

The goldstone report

Then I dont understand the references to previous resolutions mentioned being based on any facts from the Goldstone Report.

I have been reading the Goldstone report today out of curiosity

A-HRC-12-48_ADVANCE1.pdf

The report seems very specific in time period... & is long after the resolutions mentioned.

So those resolutions could not have based on the Goldstone report.

I am not saying the resolutions were right or wrong just that they could not have been based on the report.

To implement its mandate, the Mission determined that it was required to consider any

actions by all parties that might have constituted violations of international human rights law or

international humanitarian law. The mandate also required it to review related actions in the

entire Occupied Palestinian Territory and Israel.

With regard to temporal scope, the Mission decided to focus primarily on events, actions or

circumstances occurring since 19 June 2008, when a ceasefire was agreed between the

Government of Israel and Hamas. The Mission has also taken into consideration matters

occurring after the end of military operations that constitute continuing human rights and

international humanitarian law violations related to or as a consequence of the military

operations, up to 31 July 2009.

The Mission also analysed the historical context of the events that led to the military

operations in Gaza between 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009 and the links between these

operations and overarching Israeli policies vis-à-vis the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

The author of the report now says his findings were not correct.

(CNN) -- The chairman of a U.N. mission whose report accused Israel of "actions amounting to war crimes" during its fight against Hamas says he would have reached different conclusions if the Israeli military had been more forthcoming and if he had known the results of subsequent investigations.

"If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document," wrote Richard Goldstone, a former South African jurist, in a Washington Post op-ed column Friday.

[coma]

The goldstone report

Then I dont understand the references to previous resolutions mentioned being based on any facts from the Goldstone Report.

I have been reading the Goldstone report today out of curiosity

A-HRC-12-48_ADVANCE1.pdf

The report seems very specific in time period... & is long after the resolutions mentioned.

So those resolutions could not have based on the Goldstone report.

I am not saying the resolutions were right or wrong just that they could not have been based on the report.

To implement its mandate, the Mission determined that it was required to consider any

actions by all parties that might have constituted violations of international human rights law or

international humanitarian law. The mandate also required it to review related actions in the

entire Occupied Palestinian Territory and Israel.

With regard to temporal scope, the Mission decided to focus primarily on events, actions or

circumstances occurring since 19 June 2008, when a ceasefire was agreed between the

Government of Israel and Hamas. The Mission has also taken into consideration matters

occurring after the end of military operations that constitute continuing human rights and

international humanitarian law violations related to or as a consequence of the military

operations, up to 31 July 2009.

The Mission also analysed the historical context of the events that led to the military

operations in Gaza between 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009 and the links between these

operations and overarching Israeli policies vis-à-vis the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

The author of the report now says his findings were not correct.

(CNN) -- The chairman of a U.N. mission whose report accused Israel of "actions amounting to war crimes" during its fight against Hamas says he would have reached different conclusions if the Israeli military had been more forthcoming and if he had known the results of subsequent investigations.

"If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document," wrote Richard Goldstone, a former South African jurist, in a Washington Post op-ed column Friday.

Why weren't they more forth coming if it was going to exonerate them ???

[Steely Dan]

Why weren't they more forth coming if it was going to exonerate them ???

Simple, Previous experience of the U.N and it's agencies probably led Israel to believe they would be wasting their breath to try.

[flying]

The author of the report now says his findings were not correct.

(CNN) -- The chairman of a U.N. mission whose report accused Israel of "actions amounting to war crimes" during its fight against Hamas says he would have reached different conclusions if the Israeli military had been more forthcoming and if he had known the results of subsequent investigations.

"If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document," wrote Richard Goldstone, a former South African jurist, in a Washington Post op-ed column Friday.

Yes I understand & have read both the report & this report you pointed out.

I also detect that many would like the report cast aside on the author saying the report would have been different if the Israeli Military has been more forthcoming. So yes things would have been added surely

Yet the report itself states

The Mission conducted 188 individual interviews. It reviewed more than 300 reports,

submissions and other documentation either researched of its own motion, received in reply to its

call for submissions and notes verbales or provided during meetings or otherwise, amounting to

more than 10,000 pages, over 30 videos and 1,200 photographs.

So to that end I do not think these things would all be invalid in hindsight or even if the military was more forthright in giving their side of the story.

It may have included the Israelis reasoning but it would not negate the things that occurred...on both sides....for what ever reason

Edited April 3, 2011 by flying

[coma]

Why weren't they more forth coming if it was going to exonerate them ???

Simple , Previous experience of the U.N and it's agencies probably led Israel to believe they would be wasting their breath to try.

Your reply # 67 to mine post was this "No it's neither plain nor simple."

That said this quote a very ordinary excuse. Even you can do better that trp out a 'cop out line' like this one.

[kuffki]

Have you missed Jings underlined word? it said Hamas, it did not say Israel Mr Neutral

Secondly, have you failed to read Jings post 47?

so why would Israel cooperate with UN, when even the report's author now admits being wrong?

So let me underline another key point which you possibly missed which was

"While Israel has shown to probe itself "to a significant dgree" over Gaza war actions, Goldstone writes, Hamas, who has been in control of the coastal enclave since 2007, "has done nothing."

once again you ARE missing a point or a few. Resolutions were mainly based on the report which is now admittedly incorrect.

That means resolutions are not based on the actual facts, which in turn means need to be re-examined.

However since you are to busy again bashing Israel, could you please provide UN resolutions for Hamas and which ones they have cooperated on.?EVER

Comprehension wasn't a strong point for you was it?

That. And one just cannot negotiate with this one. A waste of space and time.

i was not aware we were in negotiations, so please enlighten me what were we negotiating?

Also i know its easier to jump onto a troll train post when you dig yourself into a hole, but please if you do not mind respond to questions put to you instead of changing subject or trolling

[kuffki]

Have you missed Jings underlined word? it said Hamas, it did not say Israel Mr Neutral

Secondly, have you failed to read Jings post 47?

so why would Israel cooperate with UN, when even the report's author now admits being wrong?

So let me underline another key point which you possibly missed which was

"While Israel has shown to probe itself "to a significant dgree" over Gaza war actions, Goldstone writes, Hamas, who has been in control of the coastal enclave since 2007, "has done nothing."

once again you ARE missing a point or a few. Resolutions were mainly based on the report which is now admittedly incorrect.

That means resolutions are not based on the actual facts, which in turn means need to be re-examined.

However since you are to busy again bashing Israel, could you please provide UN resolutions for Hamas and which ones they have cooperated on.?EVER

Comprehension wasn't a strong point for you was it?

Sorry did not know troll train was arriving today

[kuffki]

Why weren't they more forth coming if it was going to exonerate them ???

WERE forthcoming, but were not listen to, because Goldstone was too busy interviewing victims and witnesses who also happened to be Hamas.

Read the report and all the evidence across at least 10 different threads provided by a number of posters, Sorry they did not make it into a romantic comedy for you to make it easier to comprehend.

Actually need to read

Here are some of the highlights for you

• The report violates international standards for inquries, including UN rules on fact-finding, replicating earlier UNHRC biased statements.
• The Commission systematically favored witnesses and evidence put forward by anti-Israel advocates, and dismissed evidence and testimony that would undermine its case.
• The commission relied extensively on mediating agencies, especially UN and NGOs, which have a documented hostility to Israel; the report reproduces earlier reports and claims from these agencies.
• At the same time, the Commission inexplicably downplayed or ignored substantial evidence of Hamas' commission of war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes of terror, including specifically its victimization of the Palestinian population by its use of human shields, civilian dress for combatants, and combat use of protected objects like ambulances, hospitals and mosques.
• The Commission openly denies a presumption of innocence to the Israelis accused of crimes (while honoring Hamas' presumed innocence) and acknowledges that it made accusations of crimes without proof that would stand up in court.
• The report contains numerous gratuitous digressions into issues beyond the purview of a fact-finding commission that are inaccurate and profoundly hostile to Israel and Jews.
• The Commission distorted legal standards, imposing on Israel standards that reverse their generally understood and applied meaning, while ignoring important rules of international law that put the onus of responsibility on an organization as base, by Goldstone's own standards, as Ha

[coma]

Have you missed Jings underlined word? it said Hamas, it did not say Israel Mr Neutral

Secondly, have you failed to read Jings post 47?

so why would Israel cooperate with UN, when even the report's author now admits being wrong?

So let me underline another key point which you possibly missed which was

"While Israel has shown to probe itself "to a significant dgree" over Gaza war actions, Goldstone writes, Hamas, who has been in control of the coastal enclave since 2007, "has done nothing."

once again you ARE missing a point or a few. Resolutions were mainly based on the report which is now admittedly incorrect.

That means resolutions are not based on the actual facts, which in turn means need to be re-examined.

However since you are to busy again bashing Israel, could you please provide UN resolutions for Hamas and which ones they have cooperated on.?EVER

Comprehension wasn't a strong point for you was it?

That. And one just cannot negotiate with this one. A waste of space and time.

i was not aware we were in negotiations, so please enlighten me what were we negotiating?

Also i know its easier to jump onto a troll train post when you dig yourself into a hole, but please if you do not mind respond to questions put to you instead of changing subject or trolling

I will change the wording for you Kuff Kuff cuz it seems you are having trouble comprehending what I am getting at again.

There is no reasoning with the likes of yourself. I put forward a new idea and a new way of looking at things going forward and you want to have no of it. You are non negotiable when it comes to the subject. The Palestinians and those who advocate for them and for them to have a free homeland are at fault,wrong,the enemy without exception in your eyes. This attitude unfortuately is not only carried by you but by the entire Israeli government and a large portion of thier population. There for there is NO end in sight to this conbflict. Simply because the likes of yourself will NOT negotiate a truce, peace or the outline for a 2 state solution. Cuz everybody EXCEPT your like are WRONG in your eyes. Your llke are like a race horse with the blinkers on. All you see is one way traffic. I admire your passion. I am sure you would be of good use in alot of other fields because of it. But in this area your passion is over kill and indeed nothing short of ignorance.

[kuffki]

I will change the wording for you Kuff Kuff cuz it seems you are having trouble comprehending what I am getting at again.

There is no reasoning with the likes of yourself. I put forward a new idea and a new way of looking at things going forward and you want to have no of it. You are non negotiable when it comes to the subject. The Palestinians and those who advocate for them and for them to have a free homeland are at fault,wrong,the enemy without exception in your eyes. This attitude unfortuately is not only carried by you but by the entire Israeli government and a large portion of thier population. There for there is NO end in sight to this conbflict. Simply because the likes of yourself will NOT negotiate a truce, peace or the outline for a 2 state solution. Cuz everybody EXCEPT your like are WRONG in your eyes. Your llke are like a race horse with the blinkers on. All you see is one way traffic. I admire your passion. I am sure you would be of good use in alot of other fields because of it. But in this area your passion is over kill and indeed nothing short of ignorance.

This is the longest troll post i have seen!

i see you have picked up some tricks along the way of scapegoating, blaming others for your inadequacy and inability to express yourself.

If you can not express yourself or do not know the difference between negotiating and debating, please do not blame me. It is solely your fault and responsibility.

Secondly, i am in NO position to NEGOTIATE what Palestinians should or should not have, neither are you.

However i could be wrong and you may well be in the position, in which case looking at your inability to express yourself or even provide simple coherent response to a question would explain the reason for the problem in the region.

Last but not least, there was no discussion at any time about Palestinians having homeland.

The discussion was about UN resolutions and Goldstone report. If you unable to follow simple thread or provide coherent response to the ACTUAL question in debate, again do not blame anyone else but yourself.

I have asked you simple question 3 times now and yet to see coherent, clear, relevant response.

i have asked you other questions and again(as always) instead of responding, i got rather irrelevant response.

and finally, please provide a link to where i expressed my opinion on Palestinians NOT having their own state or that i was against it.

I really doubt i would get a relevant response addressing anything raised, but i am sure it will be again my fault for not accepting change of subject, made up theory's and whatever else no doubt you will come up with.

Edited April 3, 2011 by kuffki

[coma]

I will change the wording for you Kuff Kuff cuz it seems you are having trouble comprehending what I am getting at again.

There is no reasoning with the likes of yourself. I put forward a new idea and a new way of looking at things going forward and you want to have no of it. You are non negotiable when it comes to the subject. The Palestinians and those who advocate for them and for them to have a free homeland are at fault,wrong,the enemy without exception in your eyes. This attitude unfortuately is not only carried by you but by the entire Israeli government and a large portion of thier population. There for there is NO end in sight to this conbflict. Simply because the likes of yourself will NOT negotiate a truce, peace or the outline for a 2 state solution. Cuz everybody EXCEPT your like are WRONG in your eyes. Your llke are like a race horse with the blinkers on. All you see is one way traffic. I admire your passion. I am sure you would be of good use in alot of other fields because of it. But in this area your passion is over kill and indeed nothing short of ignorance.

This is the longest troll post i have seen!

i see you have picked up some tricks along the way of scapegoating, blaming others for your inadequacy and inability to express yourself.

If you can not express yourself or do not know the difference between negotiating and debating, please do not blame me. It is solely your fault and responsibility.

Secondly, i am in NO position to NEGOTIATE what Palestinians should or should not have, neither are you.

However i could be wrong and you may well be in the position, in which case looking at your inability to express yourself or even provide simple coherent response to a question would explain the reason for the problem in the region.

Last but not least, there was no discussion at any time about Palestinians having homeland.

The discussion was about UN resolutions and Goldstone report. If you unable to follow simple thread or provide coherent response to the ACTUAL question in debate, again do not blame anyone else but yourself.

I have asked you simple question 3 times now and yet to see coherent, clear, relevant response.

i have asked you other questions and again(as always) instead of responding, i got rather irrelevant response.

and finally, please provide a link to where i expressed my opinion on Palestinians NOT having their own state or that i was against it.

I really doubt i would get a relevant response addressing anything raised, but i am sure it will be again my fault for not accepting change of subject, made up theory's and whatever else no doubt you will come up with.

You are joking.

[kuffki]

101% predictable response and yet again no coherent, relevant answers or ability to even suport the claims.

[coma]

101% predictable response and yet again no coherent, relevant answers or ability to even suport the claims.

You are not worth one. You are feral when it comes to this topic and as I stated MANY times already.You cannot be reasoned with.

In closing I would like to remind you that this topic is about Israeli forces kill two Palestinians in Gaza. Not the Goldstone report.

I will let you have the final word as you always do. As far as I am concerned. We are done.

[cdnvic]

Three people lost their posting rights so far. Stop the personal attacks.

[Pakboong]

The goldstone report

Then I dont understand the references to previous resolutions mentioned being based on any facts from the Goldstone Report.

I have been reading the Goldstone report today out of curiosity

A-HRC-12-48_ADVANCE1.pdf

The report seems very specific in time period... & is long after the resolutions mentioned.

So those resolutions could not have based on the Goldstone report.

I am not saying the resolutions were right or wrong just that they could not have been based on the report.

To implement its mandate, the Mission determined that it was required to consider any

actions by all parties that might have constituted violations of international human rights law or

international humanitarian law. The mandate also required it to review related actions in the

entire Occupied Palestinian Territory and Israel.

With regard to temporal scope, the Mission decided to focus primarily on events, actions or

circumstances occurring since 19 June 2008, when a ceasefire was agreed between the

Government of Israel and Hamas. The Mission has also taken into consideration matters

occurring after the end of military operations that constitute continuing human rights and

international humanitarian law violations related to or as a consequence of the military

operations, up to 31 July 2009.

The Mission also analysed the historical context of the events that led to the military

operations in Gaza between 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009 and the links between these

operations and overarching Israeli policies vis-à-vis the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

The author of the report now says his findings were not correct.

(CNN) -- The chairman of a U.N. mission whose report accused Israel of "actions amounting to war crimes" during its fight against Hamas says he would have reached different conclusions if the Israeli military had been more forthcoming and if he had known the results of subsequent investigations.

"If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document," wrote Richard Goldstone, a former South African jurist, in a Washington Post op-ed column Friday.

The difficulty with his change of mind is that the new information was provided by Isreal based upon an internal Israeli investigation. Of course, the UN team should have a provision to reopen the case based upon new evidence and the evidence would logically be provided by the convicted/accused party. To make a comment on the new evidence without reopening the case would normally be considered irresponsible.

I totally agree that substantial new evidence should cause a new review into the initial findings. If the new evidence changes the conclusions of the panel, Israel should be exonerated.

Goldstone claims that Israel refused to participate in the first investigation. Who knows why? He also admits to a long standing anti-Israeli bias.