Thai Immigration Tightens Requirements For Retirement Visa Extensions

[SurfRider]

.

"I talked to the head officer today and he mentioned that I DO need to show a bank letter"

Who knows for sure? - Believing an off-the-cuff comment from an Immigration agent might be a bit like believing a bar-girl when she says she's a virgin . . .

What I can tell you is that PCEC has input from many Expats on a regular weekly basis and keeps their website up to date on the various anomalies and vagaries of Thai Immigration-- and the prevailing wisdom is that the bank letter is no longer required. Like everything else with Thai Immigration, that could change with the wind.

.

[moe666]

In Feb. no bank letter or bank books asked for and letter was sufficient in Bangkok. But thats old news. Just take your stuff and if you live off atms keep reciepts.

Thats what so great about Thailand never a dull moment and nothing is written in stone.

[moe666]

During times of policy change, quite commonly immigration doesn't speak with ONE voice. There is also the reality that different offices sometimes have very different enforcement policies, and sometimes that goes on for years.

Regarding the issue in the OP, it wasn't news that Americans (etc.) were being asked for Thai bank accounts and "proof" of their embassy letter claims. It was bigger news to say that actual IMPORT of claimed funds was ALSO required.

Well folks, check out this thread from March 2011. Fairly strong evidence that Bangkok was already then moving towards requiring proof of IMPORTS. How this is all going to shake out over time? I feel nobody knows and if you think talking to random immigration officers is going to give you the final answer, you're too optimistic. However, I do get that targeted nationalities whose extensions are approaching soon need good information ASAP. My advice for those, if you have time to do two months transfers of claimed income before you need to go in and it is possible for you to do that, it couldn't hurt to do that. Otherwise, well, you are taking your chances, aren't you?

BTW, this thread from March details actual reports from expats showing that this news isn't really news. The import part, still murky.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4309370

Then if you donot talk to a immigration officer who do you talk to. On Thaivisa we only have random reports of people getting their extensions and those vary from poster to poster day to day. It may not be correct but I will go with the immigration officer they could be wrong but it is their job and they should have thier finger on the pulse of the office they work in , but good luck on that.

[Jingthing]

During times of policy change, quite commonly immigration doesn't speak with ONE voice. There is also the reality that different offices sometimes have very different enforcement policies, and sometimes that goes on for years.

Regarding the issue in the OP, it wasn't news that Americans (etc.) were being asked for Thai bank accounts and "proof" of their embassy letter claims. It was bigger news to say that actual IMPORT of claimed funds was ALSO required.

Well folks, check out this thread from March 2011. Fairly strong evidence that Bangkok was already then moving towards requiring proof of IMPORTS. How this is all going to shake out over time? I feel nobody knows and if you think talking to random immigration officers is going to give you the final answer, you're too optimistic. However, I do get that targeted nationalities whose extensions are approaching soon need good information ASAP. My advice for those, if you have time to do two months transfers of claimed income before you need to go in and it is possible for you to do that, it couldn't hurt to do that. Otherwise, well, you are taking your chances, aren't you?

BTW, this thread from March details actual reports from expats showing that this news isn't really news. The import part, still murky.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4309370

Then if you donot talk to a immigration officer who do you talk to. On Thaivisa we only have random reports of people getting their extensions and those vary from poster to poster day to day. It may not be correct but I will go with the immigration officer they could be wrong but it is their job and they should have thier finger on the pulse of the office they work in , but good luck on that.

Since you're asking and it is a legit question, I strongly favor the sum of the PERSONAL REPORTS here way over anything immigration officers say to me personally at one point in time. Also, to mention, talking to a British official isn't so relevant to an issue impacting mostly Americans. I have in the past asked that Pattaya British official a very important question, he gave me an officious answer, and then by the time my appointment came around, turned out he was 100 percent wrong. Note I am not blaming him. I contend the best information is almost always to be found on this forum. But that's only as good as people being willing to supply current reports. Based on current reports, I would be quite confident at this time Pattaya is generally NOT bothering Americans with demands for extra proof of embassy letters/importation proof, etc. Based on Bangkok reports that go back months now, I reckon Americans applying in Bangkok would now be foolish not to be prepared to at least prove pensions, and quite possibly prove transfers into Thailand somewhat matching the stated pensions (or have a good explanation for why they don't). You can value info differently than me. Fine. My hard won experience says reports on this forum, in totally, are best. Cheers.

(Note that I ended up NOT FOLLOWING the bad info I got from the British officer at Pattaya. Instead I kept reading this forum and the info here convinced me not to follow it. Thus I avoided what would have been a major problem for me if I had taken his word as gospel. In a previous post I mentioned an incident where a quick immigration change created a huge problem for me as I was caught in a time window making it literally impossible for me to comply, or for that matter any human being. That was very annoying, but it occurred about five years ago, and I don't want to recount such dated details now as the specifics of the case are off topic except the larger issue that immigration policy changes can indeed sometimes mess with us in really unfair ways.)

Edited June 10, 2011 by Jingthing

[moe666]

During times of policy change, quite commonly immigration doesn't speak with ONE voice. There is also the reality that different offices sometimes have very different enforcement policies, and sometimes that goes on for years.

Regarding the issue in the OP, it wasn't news that Americans (etc.) were being asked for Thai bank accounts and "proof" of their embassy letter claims. It was bigger news to say that actual IMPORT of claimed funds was ALSO required.

Well folks, check out this thread from March 2011. Fairly strong evidence that Bangkok was already then moving towards requiring proof of IMPORTS. How this is all going to shake out over time? I feel nobody knows and if you think talking to random immigration officers is going to give you the final answer, you're too optimistic. However, I do get that targeted nationalities whose extensions are approaching soon need good information ASAP. My advice for those, if you have time to do two months transfers of claimed income before you need to go in and it is possible for you to do that, it couldn't hurt to do that. Otherwise, well, you are taking your chances, aren't you?

BTW, this thread from March details actual reports from expats showing that this news isn't really news. The import part, still murky.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4309370

Then if you donot talk to a immigration officer who do you talk to. On Thaivisa we only have random reports of people getting their extensions and those vary from poster to poster day to day. It may not be correct but I will go with the immigration officer they could be wrong but it is their job and they should have thier finger on the pulse of the office they work in , but good luck on that.

Since you're asking and it is a legit question, I strongly favor the sum of the PERSONAL REPORTS here way over anything immigration officers say to me personally at one point in time. Also, to mention, talking to a British official isn't so relevant to an issue impacting mostly Americans. I have in the past asked that Pattaya British official a very important question, he gave me an officious answer, and then by the time my appointment came around, turned out he was 100 percent wrong. Note I am not blaming him. I contend the best information is almost always to be found on this forum. But that's only as good as people being willing to supply current reports. Based on current reports, I would be quite confident at this time Pattaya is generally NOT bothering Americans with demands for extra proof of embassy letters/importation proof, etc. Based on Bangkok reports that go back months now, I reckon Americans applying in Bangkok would now be foolish not to be prepared to at least prove pensions, and quite possibly prove transfers into Thailand somewhat matching the stated pensions (or have a good explanation for why they don't). You can value info differently than me. Fine. My hard won experience says reports on this forum, in totally, are best. Cheers.

(Note that I ended up NOT FOLLOWING the bad info I got from the British officer at Pattaya. Instead I kept reading this forum and the info here convinced me not to follow it. Thus I avoided what would have been a major problem for me if I had taken his word as gospel. In a previous post I mentioned an incident where a quick immigration change created a huge problem for me as I was caught in a time window making it literally impossible for me to comply, or for that matter any human being. That was very annoying, but it occurred about five years ago, and I don't want to recount such dated details now as the specifics of the case are off topic except the larger issue that immigration policy changes can indeed sometimes mess with us in really unfair ways.)

In the end it all boils down to personal experience and all you can do is prepare for the worst. Info on here I have found varies from being very good to useless. It still all boils down to the luck of the draw. When I went in Feb. we had a lot of line jumpers, when they finally got to those of use with q-numbers they where just whipping us out of there before closing time. No request for extras.

[tropo]

Since you're asking and it is a legit question, I strongly favor the sum of the PERSONAL REPORTS here way over anything immigration officers say to me personally at one point in time. Also, to mention, talking to a British official isn't so relevant to an issue impacting mostly Americans. I have in the past asked that Pattaya British official a very important question, he gave me an officious answer, and then by the time my appointment came around, turned out he was 100 percent wrong. Note I am not blaming him. I contend the best information is almost always to be found on this forum. But that's only as good as people being willing to supply current reports. Based on current reports, I would be quite confident at this time Pattaya is generally NOT bothering Americans with demands for extra proof of embassy letters/importation proof, etc. Based on Bangkok reports that go back months now, I reckon Americans applying in Bangkok would now be foolish not to be prepared to at least prove pensions, and quite possibly prove transfers into Thailand somewhat matching the stated pensions (or have a good explanation for why they don't). You can value info differently than me. Fine. My hard won experience says reports on this forum, in totally, are best. Cheers.

(Note that I ended up NOT FOLLOWING the bad info I got from the British officer at Pattaya. Instead I kept reading this forum and the info here convinced me not to follow it. Thus I avoided what would have been a major problem for me if I had taken his word as gospel. In a previous post I mentioned an incident where a quick immigration change created a huge problem for me as I was caught in a time window making it literally impossible for me to comply, or for that matter any human being. That was very annoying, but it occurred about five years ago, and I don't want to recount such dated details now as the specifics of the case are off topic except the larger issue that immigration policy changes can indeed sometimes mess with us in really unfair ways.)

Any chance of you expanding on the problem you had with Barry's (British liaison officer) directions? He's always helped me out with the correct info, even for an Australian. I'm sure if there is some sh*t hitting the fan for Americans and Australians he would be well aware of it by now. I'd rather talk to him than anyone else in there. You can't expect him to know everything but he's as close as you're going to get.

[tropo]

As I said, I talked to the head officer today and he mentioned that I DO need to show a bank letter when using the 65K income method. Perhaps they're more confused than we are.

I'd like to have a talk with Barry about this. I think my bank letter only cost 100 baht last year, but if I don't need it I'd rather save the visit.

You mean the Honorary Consul Barry?

Didnt he retire last year and was replaced by Howard Miller?

Yes he did retire. He is now a "regular person" who works as a liaison officer and by all accounts he is making the place far more foreigner friendly than it used to be.

[tropo]

.

"I talked to the head officer today and he mentioned that I DO need to show a bank letter"

Who knows for sure? - Believing an off-the-cuff comment from an Immigration agent might be a bit like believing a bar-girl when she says she's a virgin . . .

What I can tell you is that PCEC has input from many Expats on a regular weekly basis and keeps their website up to date on the various anomalies and vagaries of Thai Immigration-- and the prevailing wisdom is that the bank letter is no longer required. Like everything else with Thai Immigration, that could change with the wind.

It was not an "off-the-cuff" comment from an Immigration agent. It was a direct answer to my question from the top Immigration official.

[cdnvic]

One flame deleted, next one gets a time-out.US immigration is not the topic here.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Why is it that a simple informational post becomes a forum for panic and suppositions going way beyond what the post is trying to tell us. It simply states that the immigration office might require proof which substantiates the embassy letter. I doubt that Thai immigration gives a sh*t whether it is pension income, interest income, investment income, etc. You either have the funds/income to qualify or you don't. If you don't the post is warning you that you MAY have a problem as there seems to be a toughening of the attitude of the Immigration Office. There has probably been some incidents which brought to light that some individuals do NOT have the required income as shown on the embassy letter. What's the big deal here? 65,000/month or 800,000 in the bank is the requirement. Nothing was said in the post about the requirement to bring into Thailand all 65,000 per month just as there is no requirement that you cannot sent money back out of the country from the 800,000 Thai bank account. The Thai government is only trying to set some standards to prohibit farangs coming to Thailand and trying to live on the 8,000 baht per month someone suggested was general income for the Thai populace. Seems like the Thai government is actually quite reasonable with regard to income requirements.

Because for the past ten years the bar has been moving in the wrong direction. No, the govt. is not trying to stop farangs from living on 8000 baht per month. They are trying to stop farangs from living on 64,999 bhat per month or who only have 799,999 bhat in the bank. Both of those figures are set way too high. Guess what they were ten years ago? Next they will come for farangs with Thai wives. Eventually they will come for you and you will not be so complacent.

[peebee]

Because for the past ten years the bar has been moving in the wrong direction. No, the govt. is not trying to stop farangs from living on 8000 baht per month. They are trying to stop farangs from living on 64,999 bhat per month or who only have 799,999 bhat in the bank. Both of those figures are set way too high. Guess what they were ten years ago? Next they will come for farangs with Thai wives. Eventually they will come for you and you will not be so complacent.

Well that provides us with some certainty

[JimGant]

How many U.S. citizens do you think become a burden on Thai national resources in any given year? My guess would be probably zero!

Dunno. After that article a few months back, about farangs unable to pay their hospital bills, I would imagine some were Americans. And, if they were here on retirement extensions, I would also imagine Immigration got an earful over 'how can they be indigent when they have to show annual financial resources.'

With hospitals getting stiffed by foreigners, I would think, down the road, we'll all be required to have 800k (or more) in a Thai bank -- as a surety bond. Meanwhile, until then, those going the income route are going to have to prove their income is free and clear for use in Thailand -- and not going as alimony to the ex. So, showing wire receipts -- or ATM receipts and the related farang bank statement -- seems prudent, from a Thai perspective.

Actually, seems prudent from any country trying to counter foreign freeloaders.

I'm sorry for those who can't show cash flow equivalent of $2200 monthly into Thailand. But, I'm also sorry for the Thai hospitals (and Thai taxpayers) getting stiffed by foreigners who misrepresented their means.

[FOODLOVER]

Why is it that a simple informational post becomes a forum for panic and suppositions going way beyond what the post is trying to tell us. It simply states that the immigration office might require proof which substantiates the embassy letter. I doubt that Thai immigration gives a sh*t whether it is pension income, interest income, investment income, etc. You either have the funds/income to qualify or you don't. If you don't the post is warning you that you MAY have a problem as there seems to be a toughening of the attitude of the Immigration Office. There has probably been some incidents which brought to light that some individuals do NOT have the required income as shown on the embassy letter. What's the big deal here? 65,000/month or 800,000 in the bank is the requirement. Nothing was said in the post about the requirement to bring into Thailand all 65,000 per month just as there is no requirement that you cannot sent money back out of the country from the 800,000 Thai bank account. The Thai government is only trying to set some standards to prohibit farangs coming to Thailand and trying to live on the 8,000 baht per month someone suggested was general income for the Thai populace. Seems like the Thai government is actually quite reasonable with regard to income requirements.

Because for the past ten years the bar has been moving in the wrong direction. No, the govt. is not trying to stop farangs from living on 8000 baht per month. They are trying to stop farangs from living on 64,999 bhat per month or who only have 799,999 bhat in the bank. Both of those figures are set way too high. Guess what they were ten years ago? Next they will come for farangs with Thai wives. Eventually they will come for you and you will not be so complacent.

I knew it! It was the bar that was moving, and in the wrong direction !. I just thought it was the tequila. THEY WILL COME FOR YOU AND YOUR THAI WIVES! muahahahahha. You guys are freaking me out and i have over 20 years till retirement.

[Pib]

I expect since Immigration has always had the authority to ask for additional proof of income that when they do ask there is something in the applicant's current/past application file or maybe even appearance/demeanor that raises some suspicion of income validity; thus, the request for additional (but reasonable) proof. Like if you are using the Embassy letter you should have the income documents you used to show the Embassy, or were ready to show even if the Embassy didn't ask and relied on your sworn income statement.

Or, maybe immigration has started an internal policy to randomly require XX percentage of applications (i.e., 1%, 10%, etc) to be selected for additional income verification.

I expect Immigration has been asking for additional income proof from a few applicants for many years, but now maybe they may have increased the percentage. And then seeing a post from this well known OP raises the anxiety level for many expats...but keep in mind the post was purely a statement of the OP's experience in helping clients.

In my case, I've always used the American Embassy letter for my retirement extension of stays application (never been asked for additional income proof yet), but fortunately this year, and by chance, I'm also prepared to punt to the 800,000 baht method in a Thai bank (due to a pending large buy and assuming I don't do the buy before extension renewal time) if Immigration asks me for Embassy letter income verification proof which will be U.S. govt yearly pension statements and they don't accept these pension statements (which I expect is highly unlikely). But normally, I keep no more money in a Thai bank than I have to for short term emergencies/living expenses. I pretty much live off ATM withdrawals using my no foreign fee debit cards which give me a slightly better exchange rate than the TT Buying Rate used for wire transfers and associated transfer fees.

Personally, I think Immigration needs to stick to the policy/guidance they openly publish in English to ensure they have requirements that are transparent and easily understandable to the expat community/public. IMHO, Thai Immigration could do much, much better job in this area. Yes, it might reduce the number of views/posts in the Visa's topic area of ThaiVisa website, but it sure would help to reduce the pain/headaches/uncertainties of the visa application/extension process.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Pib

[tartempion]

As usual, all the scammers wroughting the system and are as verbal as ever - they only want our money, they don't want us here, they are ripping us off etc etc add nauseum. I like many others play by the rules and don't have even the smallest problem with immigration.

It's all ridiculous.

I have plenty of dough to comply to more stringent rules but hate the fuzz authorities makes and Thai authorities clearly excel in this game.

I do have a social security card with a chip embedded. Suffice to swipe the card at any pharmacy or hospital and they know my status.

I hold a European passport and usually pass immigration in less than few minutes at any European airport, only bothered by the number of people in line.

We live in the 21st century yes? No.

Suffice to add a chip into our passport, have a world wide data base accessible at airport/border/immigration/embassies.

Say you want to travel to Thailand as a tourist, add your visa status at the Thai embassy.

Some information could be stored in the chip to satisfy Thai requirements, valid for the duration of your passport: no more crap with extensions, re-entry permits, 90 days reporting.

We now have (well Thailand might get there soon...) wifi/internet access on the move via mobile G3/G4 hardware and have much of the public services in the stone age

[Pattaya46]

After that article a few months back, about farangs unable to pay their hospital bills, I would imagine some were Americans. And, if they were here on retirement extensions, I would also imagine Immigration got an earful over 'how can they be indigent when they have to show annual financial resources.'

Hi JimGant,

Sad but true, and not only an "article a few months back" but at quiet regular occurrences in Thai newspapers... In some case the patients flee to avoid to pay! It gives very bad image of falangs living in Thailand...

Phuket main hospital stated in January : (Source: BangkokPost, 24th Jan 2011, "Hospitals count cost of foreigners' bills, Elderly patients often can't pay for treatment ")

The hospital last year spent 1.3 million baht treating 17 penniless foreigners. It was the third consecutive year that the hospital had logged unpaid bills.

//

"These patients are mostly European men," the source said. "They didn't take out health insurance. They renew their visas every year and have no savings." // "Some of them produced fake financial statements to have their visas renewed."

Thai press related a more than 500,000 baht debit case for 1 guy alone at Bangkok Pattaya Hospital following a important heart relative operation...

I'm also sorry for the Thai hospitals (and Thai taxpayers) getting stiffed by foreigners who misrepresented their means

I agree. With more and more "old falangs" coming live in Thailand, a logical solution (better that the 800k/65k only) would be to ask for a proof of a 1 year health insurance when one renew his yearly authorization of stay.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

I knew it! It was the bar that was moving, and in the wrong direction !. I just thought it was the tequila. THEY WILL COME FOR YOU AND YOUR THAI WIVES! muahahahahha. You guys are freaking me out and i have over 20 years till retirement.

You are a good example of a person who should take this long-term trend seriously. In 20 years, when you retire, I think you will not be able to see the bar without taking a plane ride to the outer stratosphere. And if you are an American, forget getting social security, so no govt. pension will likely be there. The "system" is not "stable" and that is causing frustration. It constantly changes. Most of us deal with it even though we would prefer that they create some rules and stick to them for a decade or so. The instability of the system, I think, makes expats look for other retirement destinations. Put differently, they look for other places to spend their money! About a few expats not being able to pay medical bills in Thailand (and I have no information about whether it is true or not). Assuming it is true, please allow me to put that in perspective: the entire population of Thailand pays 30 baht! Which segment is causing more financial harm to the medical system in Thailand, a handful of expats or the entire population of Thailand? Finally, it amazes me that so many expats (not you Foodlover) bend over and say "give it to me" each time the rules are changed in a way that makes it harder for some other expats to live in the Kingdom. What is the matter with you? That is odd behavior. Usually expats stick together and support each other. As I said, eventually they will come for you too!

[FOODLOVER]

I knew it! It was the bar that was moving, and in the wrong direction !. I just thought it was the tequila. THEY WILL COME FOR YOU AND YOUR THAI WIVES! muahahahahha. You guys are freaking me out and i have over 20 years till retirement.

You are a good example of a person who should take this long-term trend seriously. In 20 years, when you retire, I think you will not be able to see the bar without taking a plane ride to the outer stratosphere. And if you are an American, forget getting social security, so no govt. pension will likely be there. The "system" is not "stable" and that is causing frustration. It constantly changes. Most of us deal with it even though we would prefer that they. The instability of the system, I think, makes expats look for other retirement destinations. Put differently, they look for other places to spend their money! About a few expats not being able to pay medical bills in Thailand (and I have no information about whether it is true or not). Assuming it is true, please allow me to put that in perspective: the entire population of Thailand pays 30 baht! Which segment is causing more financial harm to the medical system in Thailand, a handful of expats or the entire population of Thailand? Finally, it amazes me that so many expats (not you Foodlover) bend over and say "give it to me" each time the rules are changed in a way that makes it harder for some other expats to live in the Kingdom. What is the matter with you? That is odd behavior. Usually expats stick together and support each other. As I said, eventually they will come for you too!

But when you retire in a country such as Lao, Cambodia, Costa Rica, any exotic 3rd world destination those governments are developing as well and will change the policies accordingly and one must bend with the wind. "Create some rules and stick to them for a decade or so" we cant do that in America how are they going to do it here? If you meet the criteria there is not an issue. Foreigners getting 30 baht medical? Not paying their medical? Hospitals here will not admit a patient without proof of proper means of payment. I was refused a CAT scan with my Thai bought insurance card until my money arrived. Don't know who's getting free stuff but i want in. I too have to agree with you about the expats bending over and saying "Give it to me". I have not seen this but feel that if this is really going on they must be given a stiff penalty as the Thai immigration law states a foreigner can not do a job that a Thai can do! "And there's nothing wrong with that" but really we are guests!

[Artisi]

Sunbelt Asia explained... // Our experience over the past month has been

that the Immigration officer requires proof of income in addition to the certified letter

Thanks, but did you ever explain to ThaiVisa

that in case of pension it must now be transfer into Thailand?

It's the main subject of this long thread...

Hmmmm how else are you going to live if you don't have access to your money? If it means you are drawing your income directly from your home country's bank account via ATM and home country issued ATM card. Then you are ripping yourself off big time! Apart from the fact that you are missing out on getting the perfect record of transactions required for your visa.

By law my Oz Pensions must be paid into an Oz Bank Account. No problem, all I do is a 2 minute Netbank Transfer, in Australian Dollars, to my Bangkok Bank Account in 5000 Dollar lots at periodic intervals as I need it. Costs me a one off fee of $22. My OZ Dollars are then exchanged by the Bangkok Bank at their rate and not the rip off rate given by Oz Banks, and then deposited in my account. I stick my bankbook in one of the Auto Passbook Update Machines every now and then and voila! Instant financial transaction record (good for self too, not just a visa). I also keep my Australian ATM Cards locked away for safekeeping and just carry my Bangkok Bank ATM Card with me. its win, win all round,

Your Oz pension does not have to be paid into an Oz bank account - there is no law stating this, you can request it to be paid into a Thai bank at no cost to yourself. But like yourself, I have it paid into an Oz account and transfer it in Oz $ when I need it at the better rate.

[trisailer]

There is one thing about life that I can be sure of; Change is inevitable.

I consider myself extremely lucky to have grown up with my generation (I'm 59) I had opportunities and some success and some failures, but here I am still navigating my life and trying to avoid ending up on the rocks. Future generations will not have it so good I think.

Whatever Thailand does or doesn't do offers me a challenge to continue to manage my life with the expectation that things will change and that I will meet that change.

Thailand does have a significant issue with vagabond farangs. I see them from time to time all around Pattaya. Why should Thailand be strapped with helping these people? If I were Thailand I would increase the fees we pay to come here to cover that added cost.

If you think things are terrible today, wait until after the elections. Things could go sour very quickly. If you are expecting things to stay the same as when you got here than perhaps the problem is with you having incorrect expectations.

Like I said, I haven't had a problem at immigration and none of my friends who are here to retire have had problems. It is a easy thing to prove your income to satisfy immigration if in fact you do have sufficient income.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

There is one thing about life that I can be sure of; Change is inevitable.

I consider myself extremely lucky to have grown up with my generation (I'm 59) I had opportunities and some success and some failures, but here I am still navigating my life and trying to avoid ending up on the rocks. Future generations will not have it so good I think.

Whatever Thailand does or doesn't do offers me a challenge to continue to manage my life with the expectation that things will change and that I will meet that change.

Thailand does have a significant issue with vagabond farangs. I see them from time to time all around Pattaya. Why should Thailand be strapped with helping these people? If I were Thailand I would increase the fees we pay to come here to cover that added cost.

If you think things are terrible today, wait until after the elections. Things could go sour very quickly. If you are expecting things to stay the same as when you got here than perhaps the problem is with you having incorrect expectations.

Like I said, I haven't had a problem at immigration and none of my friends who are here to retire have had problems. It is a easy thing to prove your income to satisfy immigration if in fact you do have sufficient income.

I agree with some of what you said and disagree with some of what you said. I too am lucky in that I have never had a "problem" with immigration, but certainly it is a headache dealing with immigration and the constant and irritating rule changes. One poster said other countries in the region also change their rules. Cambodia does not change the rules like Thailand (but recently did come up with a crazy rule). Malaysia, Vietnam, Philippines and Cambodia all have rules that are far more predictable than Thailand's rules. Yes, future generations are screwed! That is a long-term problem for Thailand but at some point the number of expats will start declining along with the monies they spend. How do you spot a vagabond farang? Short and t-shirt and sandals? I know what you mean, and I think you know what I mean as well. The bar changes have not had their intended effect which was to shift from low-to middle income expats to high-income expats. Why? High-income expats do not retire here. Why should they? Maybe they buy a penthouse condo on the beachfront and live there for one week out of the year, but that is not the same. Yes, after the elections we should all be concerned. If the certain square head party wins, we are in for a rough time as "revenge" against, I think, everyone, including farangs, will be the order of the day. Finally, I know farangs who have money to retire in Thailand but are concerned about the rule changes. Some have already left and others are seriously thinking about it. As soon as my employment situation changes, I will be out of here too. No, please, no applause!

[Pattaya46]

Finally, I know farangs who have money to retire in Thailand but are concerned about the rule changes.

Some have already left and others are seriously thinking about it.

Don't you think that your post (and many before) are of big exaggeration?

From all what read in this thread there is no change of rules.

People who retire here still have to follow Rules of 2008.

In the case of pension the rule was and still is "Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month". Letter from USA or Australia Embassy clearly are not "evidence" as you can indicate any value without control. So Immigration ask for a real proof, as required by 2008 rules. Seems fair to me.

And about "People are seriously thinking about quiting Thailand", I don't know how many times I heard/read that in recent years, but I witness more and more people retiring in Thailand every day!

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Don't you think that your post (and many before) are of big exaggeration?

From all what read in this thread there is no change of rules.

People who retire here still have to follow Rules of 2008.

In the case of pension the rule was and still is "Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month". Letter from USA or Australia Embassy clearly are not "evidence" as you can indicate any value without control. So Immigration ask for a real proof, as required by 2008 rules. Seems fair to me.

And about "People are seriously thinking about quiting Thailand", I don't know how many times I heard/read that in recent years, but I witness more and more people retiring in Thailand every day!

Only if you think I am only talking about the new rule, which I am not. I am talking about a ten-year immigration rule trend that has not been good for expats. Yes, people do retire here. But others have left and still others made the decision not to retire here for many reasons, one being the constantly moving immigration bar. Had Thailand not implemented the immigration rule changes that have taken place over the past ten years, there would be more expat retirees here spending more money and creating more jobs for Thais (you need to think about what could have happened). From a purely economic perspective, Thais would be better off. And, no doubt, there would be far fewer vacancy signs for condos and houses

[granuaile]

Because for the past ten years the bar has been moving in the wrong direction. No, the govt. is not trying to stop farangs from living on 8000 baht per month. They are trying to stop farangs from living on 64,999 bhat per month or who only have 799,999 bhat in the bank. Both of those figures are set way too high. Guess what they were ten years ago? Next they will come for farangs with Thai wives. Eventually they will come for you and you will not be so complacent.

I don't think it is aimed at farang especially, just enforcing existing policies. We all know those policies, and I have known people to be required to show such before. I think much depends on the officer and also on the applicant. Everything other than requiring proof of income seems to have been in place for a while. The only thing in February I had to do was to sign a statement that my income was at least 65,000 baht a month. I am still unclear on just what is going on in reality but time will tell.

What does puzzle me is why a single retired person would need twice the income of a person married to a Thai and possibly with a family. That just doesn't make sense. And it is about twice the requirement for a retirement visa in Indonesia (it happens though that it is Thailand I love). But will have to see, maybe my ex will be extra generous to me, to keep me 10,000 miles away

[granuaile]

How many U.S. citizens do you think become a burden on Thai national resources in any given year? My guess would be probably zero!

Dunno. After that article a few months back, about farangs unable to pay their hospital bills, I would imagine some were Americans. And, if they were here on retirement extensions, I would also imagine Immigration got an earful over 'how can they be indigent when they have to show annual financial resources.'

With hospitals getting stiffed by foreigners, I would think, down the road, we'll all be required to have 800k (or more) in a Thai bank -- as a surety bond. Meanwhile, until then, those going the income route are going to have to prove their income is free and clear for use in Thailand -- and not going as alimony to the ex. So, showing wire receipts -- or ATM receipts and the related farang bank statement -- seems prudent, from a Thai perspective.

Actually, seems prudent from any country trying to counter foreign freeloaders.

I'm sorry for those who can't show cash flow equivalent of $2200 monthly into Thailand. But, I'm also sorry for the Thai hospitals (and Thai taxpayers) getting stiffed by foreigners who misrepresented their means.

I agree, and actually when I went in February (having seen that article) one of the things I included was a photocopy of my health insurance card and a summary of benefits in network and out. Not sure it helped but I thought it could not hurt...

[Pattaya46]

What does puzzle me is why a single retired person would need twice the income of a person married to a Thai and possibly with a family. That just doesn't make sense.

Let's think about that:

- because when married you get 2 salaries to pay about the same home rent

- because when single you need to pay an expensive health insurance; when married you use your wife's one

- because single falangs usually rent a 50m2 place for them alone but live more "thai style" when married : 4 person in 30 m2...

- because when married you buy nearly everything at Thai price, not the falang price in many double-pricing places...

- because singles like to live in the heart of the action/city (expensive) and when married prefer quieter suburb or campaign (cheaper)

- because when single many falangs spends a fortune in bars and ladies...

- because most singles pay at least one plane travel to their home country yearly but stay there when married...

... (add yours...)

[Genericnic]

In reviewing the prior posts, I have come to the conclusion that most of the posters are confusing the legal requirements for an extension of stay (e.g., 800,000 THB in a Thai bank or 65,000 THB per month in income, or some combination equal to 800,000 THB) and the evidence necessary to prove compliance with the legal requirements (such as the embassy letter). As far as I can tell, the legal requirements themselves have not changed. See, e.g. Order of the Royal Thai Police 777/2552. For an extension based on retirement, you are still required to be 50 or over and have a monthly income of at least 65,000 THB, 800,000 THB in a Thai bank for at least 90 days, or some combination of income and money on deposit in a Thai bank equal to 800,000.

What seems to have changed, at least in some locations or with some people attempting to secure an extension of stay, is that Thai Immigration has started requiring more substantial proof than has been required in the past. As we all know (hopefully), Thai Immigration has the authority to require additional documentation at any time. Speaking as an U.S. citizen only since I have no experience with what is required from other countries, I can see where Thai Immigration might want to see additional proof to go with the embassy letter confirming income. In essence, the letter that the embassy provides is based on nothing more than the applicant swearing under oath that he or she has a certain amount of income per month. The embassy apparently makes no inquiry into the truthfulness or accuracy of the statements and I have found no information, anecdotal or otherwise, to indicate that any individual has ever been punished for "fudging the numbers" and swearing to a false amount of income. While I fully believe that most people making the declarations do so honestly, I am also sure that there is some small number of folks that are less than forthright in their declarations. That small number may well have been the impetus for the changes in the proof required by Thai Immigration.

As for the money required to come into the Kingdom, that only seems to be required for the 800,000 THB or the portion used to top up income to 800,000 THB which is required to be on deposit in a Thai bank in Thailand. None of the information I have found, including the Order linked above, show any requirement that the 65,000 THB income per month be brought into the Kingdom. If there is something that does specifically require the 65,000 THB per month be brought into the Kingdom, I would appreciate a reference to that material.

Just my $0.02 worth.

David

[moe666]

Don't you think that your post (and many before) are of big exaggeration?

From all what read in this thread there is no change of rules.

People who retire here still have to follow Rules of 2008.

In the case of pension the rule was and still is "Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month". Letter from USA or Australia Embassy clearly are not "evidence" as you can indicate any value without control. So Immigration ask for a real proof, as required by 2008 rules. Seems fair to me.

And about "People are seriously thinking about quiting Thailand", I don't know how many times I heard/read that in recent years, but I witness more and more people retiring in Thailand every day!

Only if you think I am only talking about the new rule, which I am not. I am talking about a ten-year immigration rule trend that has not been good for expats. Yes, people do retire here. But others have left and still others made the decision not to retire here for many reasons, one being the constantly moving immigration bar. Had Thailand not implemented the immigration rule changes that have taken place over the past ten years, there would be more expat retirees here spending more money and creating more jobs for Thais (you need to think about what could have happened). From a purely economic perspective, Thais would be better off. And, no doubt, there would be far fewer vacancy signs for condos and houses

Haha I thought you where leaving because you where fed up with Thailand. I see you are still around. Changes in the retirement rules lets see changed the age from 55 to 50 thats a hard one, and they did raise the amt of money one needs only fair since the cost of living is going up.

Edited June 11, 2011 by moe666

[CRUNCHER]

In reviewing the prior posts, I have come to the conclusion that most of the posters are confusing the legal requirements for an extension of stay (e.g., 800,000 THB in a Thai bank or 65,000 THB per month in income, or some combination equal to 800,000 THB) and the evidence necessary to prove compliance with the legal requirements (such as the embassy letter). As far as I can tell, the legal requirements themselves have not changed. See, e.g. Order of the Royal Thai Police 777/2552. For an extension based on retirement, you are still required to be 50 or over and have a monthly income of at least 65,000 THB, 800,000 THB in a Thai bank for at least 90 days, or some combination of income and money on deposit in a Thai bank equal to 800,000.

What seems to have changed, at least in some locations or with some people attempting to secure an extension of stay, is that Thai Immigration has started requiring more substantial proof than has been required in the past. As we all know (hopefully), Thai Immigration has the authority to require additional documentation at any time. Speaking as an U.S. citizen only since I have no experience with what is required from other countries, I can see where Thai Immigration might want to see additional proof to go with the embassy letter confirming income. In essence, the letter that the embassy provides is based on nothing more than the applicant swearing under oath that he or she has a certain amount of income per month. The embassy apparently makes no inquiry into the truthfulness or accuracy of the statements and I have found no information, anecdotal or otherwise, to indicate that any individual has ever been punished for "fudging the numbers" and swearing to a false amount of income. While I fully believe that most people making the declarations do so honestly, I am also sure that there is some small number of folks that are less than forthright in their declarations. That small number may well have been the impetus for the changes in the proof required by Thai Immigration.

As for the money required to come into the Kingdom, that only seems to be required for the 800,000 THB or the portion used to top up income to 800,000 THB which is required to be on deposit in a Thai bank in Thailand. None of the information I have found, including the Order linked above, show any requirement that the 65,000 THB income per month be brought into the Kingdom. If there is something that does specifically require the 65,000 THB per month be brought into the Kingdom, I would appreciate a reference to that material.

Just my $0.02 worth.

David

At last. A balanced and level headed assessment of the situation.

[moe666]

As usual, all the scammers wroughting the system and are as verbal as ever - they only want our money, they don't want us here, they are ripping us off etc etc add nauseum. I like many others play by the rules and don't have even the smallest problem with immigration.

It's all ridiculous.

I have plenty of dough to comply to more stringent rules but hate the fuzz authorities makes and Thai authorities clearly excel in this game.

I do have a social security card with a chip embedded. Suffice to swipe the card at any pharmacy or hospital and they know my status.

I hold a European passport and usually pass immigration in less than few minutes at any European airport, only bothered by the number of people in line.

We live in the 21st century yes? No.

Suffice to add a chip into our passport, have a world wide data base accessible at airport/border/immigration/embassies.

Say you want to travel to Thailand as a tourist, add your visa status at the Thai embassy.

Some information could be stored in the chip to satisfy Thai requirements, valid for the duration of your passport: no more crap with extensions, re-entry permits, 90 days reporting.

We now have (well Thailand might get there soon...) wifi/internet access on the move via mobile G3/G4 hardware and have much of the public services in the stone age

So what is your point, governments world wide still require people to fill out paper work for visa, believe it are not not just Thailand. It could take up to 2 years to get a visa for ones wife to immigrate to the states. Being from the states I need a visa to visit Australia, probably take longer than getting one for Thailand and I know longer than a 1 year extension of stay.