De Facto Visa

[awarrumbungle]

My gf and I are in the process of applying for a spouse de facto visa for Australia(we were supposed to have applied last week - but don't get me started on the misinformation given to us by the VFS - helpline)

My question is, has anyone heard of or been granted a spouse DE FACTO visa to Aus before?

The reason I ask is that Thailand doesn't understand de facto (the word or the principle). It's not a normal thing in their culture (as far as I know). I am concerned that if it's processed by Thai nationals they are going to ask a lot of questions as to why we aren't married.

Maybe a backgorund story will illustrate my point better. When applying at the visa application centre in Bangkok the counter lady asked us why we weren't applying for marriage. I told her we were applying for de facto as could clearly be seen on the application form. She then for the next 10 minutes asked around for the meaning of de facto!!!!

I have a feeling the word 'ongoing' in the 'relationship must be proved genuine and to be ongoing' is going to be key. Marriage is proof of 'ongoing' but to a Thai person de facto is a bit confusing and possibly gives them an excuse to say the relationship in their opinion is not ongoing.

What do you think?

[snoophound]

Jeez I wish our useless embassy would employ expat staff.

I am sure plenty would love a secondment to Thailand ,instead of these underpaid undereducated bimbos.

I am sure the fee base could sustain some Aussie staff.

Pref Straight males who would be a bit more empathatic rather than Pathetic.

My gf and I are in the process of applying for a spouse de facto visa for Australia(we were supposed to have applied last week - but don't get me started on the misinformation given to us by the VFS - helpline)

My question is, has anyone heard of or been granted a spouse DE FACTO visa to Aus before?

The reason I ask is that Thailand doesn't understand de facto (the word or the principle). It's not a normal thing in their culture (as far as I know).  I am concerned that if it's processed by Thai nationals they are going to ask a lot of questions as to why we aren't married.

Maybe a backgorund story will illustrate my point better.  When applying at the visa application centre in Bangkok the counter lady asked us why we weren't applying for marriage.  I told her we were applying for de facto as could clearly be seen on the application form.  She then for the next 10 minutes asked around for the meaning of de facto!!!!

I have a feeling the word 'ongoing' in the 'relationship must be proved genuine and to be ongoing' is going to be key.  Marriage is proof of 'ongoing' but to a Thai person de facto is a bit confusing and possibly gives them an excuse to say the relationship in their opinion is not ongoing.

What do you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Mighty Mouse]

The "de-facto" category is on the application form.

My g/f applied for this category as it was clear to her that I wouldn't be getting married.

At the interview, I was told that we had chosen the most difficult category and that we may have trouble in convincing Immigration to approve the application.

It was in my favour that I had never married before and I had no children. I then had to show cause as to why marriage was not for me. This was a lengthy written submission about the number of messy divorces in my family and how my parents divorce had adversely affected my views on marriage. I also provided statistics on marriage/divorce and included a newspaper article on how society is moving towards and accepting co-habitation rather than marriage.

I had friends submit statutory declarations about my fears of marriage.

The application was approved and she now is a permanent Australian resident. We are still living as a de-facto couple.

Make sure you have a strong case for choosing de facto and don't let some brainless public servant persuade you to select another category.

[Pink Mist]

A defacto relationship is recognised by DIMA and is subject to the same visa application rules as any spouse visa 309.

go to the links at the top of page.

[BkkPundit]

I initially went to apply for a de facto spousal visa with my wife, but after thinking long and hard about it we decided to get married just after making the application (and then provided evidence to the Embassy of this) and so when a decision was made about our application it was made on the married spousal visa.

I see 2 potential problems with a de facto spousal visa in comparision with the married spousal visa (or whatever it is called).

1. Unlike the married spousal visa, a de facto spousal visa (or at least it did 2 years ago) requires you to prove you have been living together for 12 months. I understand unless you meet this requirement that they will reject your visa even if they believe that your relationship is genuine. For us, this was crucial.

While, we had been living together for more than 12 months (almost 2 years) and had a tenancy agreement in both our names, we had little other documentation to prove we had been living together. We didn't have a joint bank account, most of my mail was sent to work, all of the utilities were in the appartment owner's name etc. Now, I can comment on your situation, but when I tried to look at my situation objectively I thought to myself there was a chance it might be rejected because of the lack of evidence of living together for 12 months so getting married would solve this problem instantly.

2. It is easier to prove your relationship is ongoing and genuine if you are married. It is certainly not impossible to do so if you are not married, but it just simply makes it easier. Marriage is certainly a committment and it has just surprised me, how people's (both Thai and western) perception of our relationship has changed because we are maried. It is difficult to explain in words but a European friend's comment to me at the time, after I told him we were getting married, sums it up "So your relationship is getting serious, now?".

Like or not, people perceive a married couple as different from a de facto couple.

[DavieA]

2. It is easier to prove your relationship is ongoing and genuine if you are married. It is certainly not impossible to do so if you are not married, but it just simply makes it easier. Marriage is certainly a committment and it has just surprised me, how people's (both Thai and western) perception of our relationship has changed because we are maried. It is difficult to explain in words but a European friend's comment to me at the time, after I told him we were getting married, sums it up "So your relationship is getting serious, now?".

Like or not, people perceive a married couple as different from a de facto couple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair comments Pundit, good post. The fact that Thai's either dont recognise, understand or look down upon the "de facto' thing is a critical factor. Mighty mouse had some interesting points too. For Bungle, a rock and a hard place as to which visa to go for.

I am in a similar position with my GF. I really don't want to hang around Thailand for much longer. If not for my GF I would certainly be home again now, so now I am just passing the time to gather the evidence and fullfill the needs of the visa application.

I really don't want to marry either for many reasons. But considering the expense of the whole application process and the consequenses and inconvienience of getting knocked back, I am beginning to think that silly little certificate that says your married may in fact, in the eyes of the visa processors, not be such a silly idea. Like it or not, like you say.

After all, other than serving the purpose of making your relationship SEEM more viable, it doesn't make a lot of difference to anything else.

Edited October 20, 2005 by DavieA

[Mighty Mouse]

The Immigration Dept. regard your first tourist visa as "living together."

Most tourist visas are for six months so this time counts towards the duration of your relationship. If you lived together in Thailand or another country prior to applying for your first Oz toursit visa and you can prove it, the Embassy will regard this time period as their starting point.

Most couples get at least two tourist visas before applying for a spouse visa.

Two six month tourist visa periods in Oz, plus the time in between, and you can easily cover two years.

There is not a lot of difference between marriage and living as de-facto. In the eyes of the law you are married either way. There is a difference should you divorce as far as which court handles the splitting of the property.

[awarrumbungle]

Thanks for your advice guys, really handy.

Mighty Mouse it's a load of to know someone did it your way and it worked.

My gf and I are now trying to decide between to options.

1) mighty mouse' I don't believe in marriage. It's truthful for myself and my girlfriend understands my opinions and a family history of unsuccessful marriages and successful de facto relationships

2) argue that we will get married but at our own pace. which is also a real life probability. We don't want to be hurried and a prospective marriage within 9 months is too hurried. We want to get married at our own pace. Plan a nice wedding with all family involved. 9 mths is too rushed considering time to get adapted to a new life and culture etc. The only issue with this one is possibly with the word 'de facto' itself. Does de facto MEAN we are against marriage altogether? This argument also seems to be a little more wishy washy as far as picky Thai national processing the visa would go.

3) do the marriage thing for the sake of the visa. De-facto and marriage may be seen as the same in australian law, it is not the same for Thais

What are your opinions guys?

[awarrumbungle]

Bronco do you work for the embassy or vfs? I am aware of the rules on paper. But as my experience with vfs staff goes and what other people have said there is a difference in people's eyes and opinions. I am in no doubt about our relationship. I am only in doubt as to how best get us both into Australia with as little as risk of failing as possible.

[brubo1]

Well, I have to say there is a difference between de facto and married. I have been there before(living in a de facto relationship) and was amazed how even the two of us regarded that "little piece of paper" once the deed was done. Our attituce towards each other changed for the better with that final piece of commitment in place. I do not believe that anyone can be as committed to a relationship in a de facto situation as opposed to being married.

As far as Thailand is concerned there are plenty of de facto relationships about. Have you never heared of the "married with paper"(married in our language) and "married without paper"(de facto) saying? I have come across many de facto relationships in Thailand and some of them very longterm ones.

Finally, which visa has a better chance of success? I believe spouse or prospective spouse will be a much easier road to travel then de facto. A mate of mine applied for (and got) a de facto visa last year. He was then 62 and his GF 38. He stayed in Thailand during the application process for that purpose. It took 4 months and about 6 trips to the embassy. They threw all sorts of spanners in the works (police and health checks for her adult daughters etc.) but he did get it in the end. He already had electricity, gas and telephone accounts in joint names, as well as bank accounts and rental agreement and also his Will with her as beneficiary.

[Cossi]

From what I can gather the decision on whether your partner is granted a visa or not has absolutaly nothing to do with Thai nationals. Your visa application is lodged at the VFS and then forwarded directly to the OZ embassy where the decision is made. Therefore it makes no difference if Thais understand the concept of a Defacto relationship.

Cossi

[Mighty Mouse]

1) mighty mouse' I don't believe in marriage.  It's truthful for myself and my girlfriend understands my opinions  and a family history of unsuccessful marriages and successful de facto relationships

If your belief is totally against marriage then you should gather as much evidence as you can to support this belief.

If you have family history of unsuccessful marriages, and if violence was part of some of those marriages, you should put in writing how these marriages adversely affected you.

If you do marry your g/f just for the sake of obtaining a permanent visa, you will go against your belief and this could affect your relationship some time down the track.

The Embassy will accept the de-facto category but it does require an involved submission.

[awarrumbungle]

correct me if I'm wrong cossi, but I was under the impression that Thai nationals processed the visas at the embassy as well. ??

[Pink Mist]

correct me if I'm wrong cossi, but I was under the impression that Thai nationals processed the visas at the embassy as well. ??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

exactly right, they do the interviews and make the decisions and the results are normally signed per Gemma Jackson .

[BkkPundit]

correct me if I'm wrong cossi, but I was under the impression that Thai nationals processed the visas at the embassy as well. ??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thai Nationals do process visas at the Embassy. However, the rules are set by DIMIA Australia and the DIMIA rules specifically allow for de facto spousal visa applications. As others have pointed out it is possible to obtain a de facto spousal visa at the Embassy in Bangkok so I wouldn't worry about this. If you are going to worry, worry about gathering all the evidence to support the actual visa application!

I wouldn't worry about the lack of knowledge of de facto status by the person at the Visa Application Centre/VFS as she will have nothing to do with your visa. For all we know it could have been her first day on the job. Her only task is to collect the application and the money.

[Cossi]

correct me if I'm wrong cossi, but I was under the impression that Thai nationals processed the visas at the embassy as well. ??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

exactly right, they do the interviews and make the decisions and the results are normally signed per Gemma Jackson .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

are you guys serious! Decisions on who can enter Australia being made by Thais. Im not saing this is a bad thing but it does seem a bit backwards.

[Mighty Mouse]

are you guys serious! Decisions on who can enter Australia being made by Thais. Im not saing this is a bad thing but it does seem a bit backwards.

Thai nationals do the interviewing and make the recommendation. The papers then go to a higher authority for rubber stamping.

The supervisors at the lower level are all Thai nationals but Aussies are the king pins and all papers are processed through them.

If you strike a problem with the Thais you can request the assistance of an Aussie however, you will find that the Thais do a good job. The ones that processed our application did. They were very knowledgable, fair and efficient.

Keep in mind that it is Thai people applying for the visa, so it stands to reason that they are better interviewed by Thai nationals who can speak the language and can better identify those who are talking a heap of BS.

[awarrumbungle]

Thanks for all the clarification on this guys!!

My worry just stems from the chance that we may not get this visa. It's not just the money, it's the time, and the fact that this is our future.

I am in no doubt about our relationship , I'm just stressed that some other 'fair' person gets to decide for us.

I'll let you know how it all pans out.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

How long has the de facto relationship been in effect ?

To clarify the Thai thoughts in the matter, it must be said that at Thai law de facto relationships do not exist and are not recognised at all.

[Mighty Mouse]

How long has the de facto relationship been in effect ?

To clarify the Thai thoughts in the matter, it must be said that at Thai law de facto relationships do not exist and are not recognised at all.

The Australian visa application has three categories: Spouse, Fiance and Interdependent.

The Interdependent category normally provides a visa application for same sex couples, but there is also a section for de-facto couples.

Aussie law recognises de-facto relationships and the taxation laws allow you to claim your de-facto just the same as you can claim for your spouse.

There are two types of Thai marriage. The full marriage involving a ceromony with monks and legal marriage papers etc., and the "Thai marriage" that provides few rights to either couple should the relationship fail. (as in divorce rights)

I assume that the latter is similar to the western worlds de-facto marriage, but I'm only assuming.

[Pink Mist]

are you guys serious! Decisions on who can enter Australia being made by Thais. Im not saing this is a bad thing but it does seem a bit backwards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thai nationals do the interviewing and make the recommendation. The papers then go to a higher authority for rubber stamping.

The supervisors at the lower level are all Thai nationals but Aussies are the king pins and all papers are processed through them.

If you strike a problem with the Thais you can request the assistance of an Aussie however, you will find that the Thais do a good job. The ones that processed our application did. They were very knowledgable, fair and efficient.

Keep in mind that it is Thai people applying for the visa, so it stands to reason that they are better interviewed by Thai nationals who can speak the language and can better identify those who are talking a heap of BS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you were lucky MM, there were some real hard cases there and we had a politician intervene for us and one CW was disciplined for her behaviour.

[Mighty Mouse]

you were lucky MM, there were some real hard cases there and we had a politician intervene for us and one CW was disciplined for her behaviour.

I have a mate in Sydney who needed the intervention of his local politician to have his g/f's tourist visa application approved.

She had been busted some time ago for gambling in Bangkok, and so had a police record. The embassy initially rejected her application because of her police record.

My g/f's application was processed smoothly. I was grilled by the Thai supervisor regarding my choice of the defacto category and I stated 'personal reasons' as to why I had chosen it. She asked me to elaborate, I refused. She then said, "Up to you, but it may not be enough information for us to approve the application."

I went home and typed out a fairly detailed account of my beliefs/fears about marriage.

It was all accepted.

The rest, as they say, is history.