URGENT -- Gunman kills 'at least' 80 at youth camp near Oslo

[Jingthing]

I think any country's immigration policy and culture of encouraging assimilation (or not caring) are legitimate political issues. No need for violence, just debate and vote ... Not every country has a great interest in being a multicultural society. Thailand for example. The USA and Canada are both successful countries (current news notwithstanding) that are very multicultural but that have different dominant cultural attitudes about assimilation.

[koheesti]

Different cultures do different things. I am pretty sure not all of you have become buddhists, speak thai and do everything the thai way (for those of you that live in thailand). The same way as in my opinion people should be able to do and believe what they want as long as it's within the legal framework in the country and that they integrate and interact with the rest of the community.

Some western expats probably fail miserably themselves at the same thing they complain about "happening to the west". I for one welcome a smaller world where one can have ones opinions, religious believes and whatever sexual preference no matter what country one might be in.

I can't speak for the others but I don't live in Thailand full-time. When I am there, the main language used is English (on Koh Samui, most Thais speak it well enough for that's what their customers speak). I don't force my language, religion (if I had one) or culture on the local population or anyone else. When in Thailand I am not taking money from Thais or their government either. So my situation isn't the type of multiculturalism that set this ABB nutjob off. He might never have done what he did if the immigrants and their supporters in the Labour Party with whom he took exception to weren't (in his mind) trying to wipe out Norwegian/European culture.

I don't think I shall say much more except that all of us needs to show more acceptance and understanding of other people.

It is amazingly ironic that many people who preach this rarely practice it in their own lives. Not saying you specifically don't because I don't know you at all. I could give examples but that would be taking this way off topic.Suffice to say that if you disagree with some self-proclaimed progressive people then you must be an evil bigot or racist. NOT a very tolerant view to hold of someone who simply doesn't see the world your way.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying. Are you calling me and evil bigot and/or racist? If so I strongly take offense to that. And if you do I think you should explain yourself.

My point is that what he and some other right wing extremists want is for other people to get out or integrate completely. That doesn't quite form well with the "I'm in thailand and not going to learn thai" theory (not saying that you have those opinions, but it is what I understand from your somewhat unclear post, please correct me).

And as far as I have heard ABBs hatred has had nothing to do with money, but islam and muslims.

Please try to clarify what you are saying, I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me that we should accept other cultures or that you mean muslims should stay out of europe.. If it's the latter I am actually quite appalled.

Please read what I wrote. I said NOT YOU because I don't know you at all. So I am not calling you a bigot or anything.

I'm very accepting of other cultures. I've been living in several different ones on different continents for the past 17 years. I think other cultures are interesting and pretty cool. As far as Muslims in Europe, I don't think they should stay out of Europe - unless they have no interest in assimilating. If they hate Western culture and want to live in an Islamic society so badly, why not just go back home? Honestly, I like European culture. I like that France is French, Holland is Dutch, England is English and so on. Does that make me a bigot? Why should their cultures be wiped out or diluted by people who screwed up their own countries in the first place?

[remiss]

Please read what I wrote. I said NOT YOU because I don't know you at all. So I am not calling you a bigot or anything.

I'm very accepting of other cultures. I've been living in several different ones on different continents for the past 17 years. I think other cultures are interesting and pretty cool. As far as Muslims in Europe, I don't think they should stay out of Europe - unless they have no interest in assimilating. If they hate Western culture and want to live in an Islamic society so badly, why not just go back home? Honestly, I like European culture. I like that France is French, Holland is Dutch, England is English and so on. Does that make me a bigot? Why should their cultures be wiped out or diluted by people who screwed up their own countries in the first place?

That is good to hear. I read your first post several times and like I said it was somewhat unclear what your stance was. I never called you a bigot and you brought the word up. I agree with what you say except the assimilation, I don't need everybody to think, act, have the same religion and believe the same thing even if they are in France. However what you say does also expand to what I mentioned earlier about expecting all immigrants to learn the language of the country they live in -- plenty of people living in Thailand that understand no more than sabai dee mai etc. or giving their expression of their annoyance of the culture and the country they live in (ref. other posts on this forum).

I think it's exactly what you and me are discussing right now that will become the discussion in Norway now. On the main points most of us agree and don't think that some people don't belong here or there and there. ABB thought we should not have any muslims here at all, Al-Qaida I'm not sure what is thinking, at any rate their thoughts are clouded by hatred and misconception.

The big question is of course what to do. We don't need either extreme right wing terrorists or extreme muslim terrorists. And of course very few people are. It doesn't matter about religion, maybe a small subset of human population is always going to be terrorists or full of hate, that is a scary thought. But what do we do? I see no other option than being including and accepting of other people, their religions and culture. LIke one of the police chiefs have said, we don't want a society full of restrictions, those who live without risk don't live at all.

[koheesti]

The big question is of course what to do. We don't need either extreme right wing terrorists or extreme muslim terrorists.

In all fairness I'd like to point out that when the extreme leftists/socialists have taken over a country they end up killing tens of millions of people.

Edited July 27, 2011 by koheesti

[Ulysses G.]

Rupert Murdoch's FOX NEWS is making a big deal about how the mass murderer's politics are NOT right wing as pretty much all objective media are reporting

"Objective media".

The New York Times wasted no time in jumping to conclusions about Anders Behring Breivik, the Norwegian who staged two deadly attacks in Oslo last weekend, claiming in the first two paragraphs of one story that he was a "gun-loving," "right-wing," "fundamentalist Christian," opposed to "multiculturalism."

It may as well have thrown in "Fox News-watching" and "global warming skeptic."

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=45145

[Steely Dan]

"Objective media"

It would appear after hundreds of incidents where the defenders of the intolerant have systematically covered up every 'Allahu Akbar' uttered or used moral relativism to try and defend the indefensible they finally have something which they can pin on their tormentors and out spews a volley of slander based on no coherent logical basis whatsoever.

This case was tragic and indescribably abhorrent, but it in no way undermines the argument summed up so well in this extracted from the above link from humanevents.

As explained in the smash best-seller "Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America," the liberal rule is: Any criminal act committed by a white man with a gun is a right-wing, Christian conspiracy, whereas any criminal act committed by a nonwhite is the government violating someone's civil liberties.

As goes the U.S so goes Europe.

[Ulysses G.]

Rupert Murdoch's FOX NEWS is making a big deal about how the mass murderer's politics are NOT right wing...

Actually they are saying that he is not a Christian.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1078836718001/media-brand-norwegian-maniac-a-christian-extremist/

Edited July 31, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Steely Dan]

Rupert Murdoch's FOX NEWS is making a big deal about how the mass murderer's politics are NOT right wing...

Actually they are saying that he is not a Christian.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1078836718001/media-brand-norwegian-maniac-a-christian-extremist/

Here's some blow by blow analysis dismantling the left wing media's lie that Breveik was a Christian fundamentalist, a lie made in order to peddle the myth that all religions are equally responsible for violence.

[Pakboong]

Because of serious logistical sophistication, regardless of MSM opinion, real investigators would not rule out state sponsorship of this attack. Even if you look at pictures of this guy they are just too professionally done. His video looks like it was done by Warner Bros studios. The bomb did a great deal of damage more than an investigator would expect from one man acting alone and there were an unusually large number of persons killed for a single crazed individual.

It is not that he couldn't possibly act alone but we would be remiss if we did not look to other possibilities before we jump to the lone nut conclusion.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Scott

[Ulysses G.]

He says that he does not have a "relationship" with God or Jesus, but is a "cultural Christian" because he was brought up in predominantly Christian country. It is pretty obvious that the "Christian fundamentalist" angle was dreamed up by the left-leaning media in order to denigrate Christians and Christianity and let radical Islam off the hook. He is a hateful loon and that is pretty much the end of it.

[Jingthing]

That's ridiculous! It's not a matter of putting radical Islam off the hook! It's about putting radical right wing Christianity ON THE HOOK! Don't forget the crusades. Those violent marauders were as Xian as you can get. Fox News (propaganda) has stated he can't be a Xian because Xian's don't do violence. That's simply stupid.

Also, cultural Christians vs. religious Christians ... you're splitting hairs. Of course this isn't about demonizing ALL Christians anymore than rational people are demonizing ALL Muslims. It's about recognizing that there are radical terrorist factions in both religions (and other religions as well).

Edited July 31, 2011 by Jingthing

[transam]

That's ridiculous! It's not a matter of putting radical Islam off the hook! It's about putting radical right wing Christianity ON THE HOOK! Don't forget the crusades. Those violent marauders were as Xian as you can get. Fox News (propaganda) has stated he can't be a Xian because Xian's don't do violence. That's simply stupid.

Also, cultural Christians vs. religious Christians ... you're splitting hairs. Of course this isn't about demonizing ALL Christians anymore than rational people are demonizing ALL Muslims. It's about recognizing that there are radical terrorist factions in both religions (and other religions as well).

For sure. Amazing how people want to kill people cos they haven't got a life, just hatred. Sad really.

[Ulysses G.]

Don't forget the crusades.

I'm pretty sure that the crusades are ancient history. "Radical terrorist Christians" are in rather short supply these days despite the insistence of the leftwing media.

As reported in the preceding video, Timothy Mcveigh was not a Christian either - even though he is often referred to as one.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

Also, cultural Christians vs. religious Christians ... you're splitting hairs.

I'm not splitting hairs. He is. He does not believe that Jesus is the son of God, so he is not a Christian.

[Jingthing]

Quote from McVeigh --

I know in my heart that I am right in my struggle, Steve. I have come to peace with myself, my God and my cause. Blood will flow in the streets, Steve. Good vs. Evil. Free Men vs. Socialist Wannabe Slaves. Pray it is not your blood, my friend.

His God? Allah perhaps?

Also note

There is no doubt that Timothy McVeigh was deeply influenced by the Christian Identity movement. Christian Identity is a profoundly racist and theocratic form of faith that developed in the late 1970s and spread like wildfire through rural communities throughout the U.S. in the 1980s.

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=15532

If you believe the line that McVeigh wasn't Christian, you are basically mouthing a radical right wing falsehood.

[TAWP]

That's ridiculous! It's not a matter of putting radical Islam off the hook! It's about putting radical right wing Christianity ON THE HOOK! Don't forget the crusades. Those violent marauders were as Xian as you can get. Fox News (propaganda) has stated he can't be a Xian because Xian's don't do violence. That's simply stupid.

Also, cultural Christians vs. religious Christians ... you're splitting hairs. Of course this isn't about demonizing ALL Christians anymore than rational people are demonizing ALL Muslims. It's about recognizing that there are radical terrorist factions in both religions (and other religions as well).

Again, the opposition is that the label 'radial christian' that was initially used was incorrect.

[Ulysses G.]

If you believe the line that McVeigh wasn't Christian, you are basically mouthing a radical right wing falsehood.

Who is mouthing the falsehood? He was just another hateful, confused madman and no Christian.

McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[85] During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly.[86] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[87] In a March, 1996, interview with Time magazine, McVeigh professed his belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."[85] In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.[88][89] In June, 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News claiming to be an agnostic.[90] Before his execution, McVeigh took the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.[91]

Edited July 31, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[DP25]

If you believe the line that McVeigh wasn't Christian, you are basically mouthing a radical right wing falsehood.

McVeigh himself claimed to be an agnostic who didn't belief in an afterlife, and that if he was wrong he'd adapt and would have company in hell (if it existed, which he didn't think it did). It was explained why he blew up the building in his authorized biography, and it wasn't because God told him to.

[koheesti]

That's ridiculous! It's not a matter of putting radical Islam off the hook! It's about putting radical right wing Christianity ON THE HOOK! Don't forget the crusades. Those violent marauders were as Xian as you can get. Fox News (propaganda) has stated he can't be a Xian because Xian's don't do violence. That's simply stupid.

Oddly enough, you agree with ABB. In his video he states that his group (Knights of Templar Europe) is against "Genocidal Ideologies" (Islam, Marxism, Nazism and Pre-Enlightenment Christiandom)

[Jingthing]

If you believe the line that McVeigh wasn't Christian, you are basically mouthing a radical right wing falsehood.

McVeigh himself claimed to be an agnostic who didn't belief in an afterlife, and that if he was wrong he'd adapt and would have company in hell (if it existed, which he didn't think it did). It was explained why he blew up the building in his authorized biography, and it wasn't because God told him to.

Splitting hairs again. If a Muslim born man named Hussein gunned down a bunch of Americans in his Muslim country and stated he wasn't a believer in Allah but he did it because he was against mixing of westerners in his Muslim country, the entire world would label him an Islamic terrorist.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

Even if McVeigh and Brevik were (and I think they're not) raving new earthers, believing in creative design and an imminent rapture they would be but two Christian fundamentalist atrocities compared to 17,000 carried out by Islamists in the same time. It is in light of attempts by the left to argue moral equivalence which makes it so important not to mislabel Brevik a Christian fundamentalist.

[koheesti]

There are two ways someone can be a "Christian or Muslim terrorist".

1) They commit terrorist acts and just so happen to go to Church/Mosque.

2) They commit terrorist acts BECAUSE their religion says so. Because they are supposed to kill infidels, etc. Because they want their religion to take over.

Neither McVeigh or ABB were the second type.

[Jingthing]

Even if McVeigh and Brevik were (and I think they're not) raving new earthers, believing in creative design and an imminent rapture they would be but two Christian fundamentalist atrocities compared to 17,000 carried out by Islamists in the same time. It is in light of attempts by the left to argue moral equivalence which makes it so important not to mislabel Brevik a Christian fundamentalist.

I can't really agree with you on this. DEAD IS DEAD. Murder is murder. Surely that IS a moral equivalence.

I take this stuff personally as there are a lot of people in the world who would be happy to see me murdered for religious and/or ideological reasons. Some of them are radical Muslims (call them Islamo-fascists if you like) and some of them are radical right wing Christian fundamentalists. In my home country, most of the people who would justify murdering me happen to be the Christian kind. Maybe if your own ass was targeted by the Christian kind you would be more aware that there IS moral equivalence to that kind of murderous hate.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

If you believe the line that McVeigh wasn't Christian, you are basically mouthing a radical right wing falsehood.

McVeigh himself claimed to be an agnostic who didn't belief in an afterlife, and that if he was wrong he'd adapt and would have company in hell (if it existed, which he didn't think it did). It was explained why he blew up the building in his authorized biography, and it wasn't because God told him to.

Splitting hairs again. If a Muslim born man named Hussein gunned down a bunch of Americans in his Muslim country and stated he wasn't a believer in Allah but he did it because he was against mixing of westerners in his Muslim country, the entire world would label him an Islamic terrorist.

If he publicly admitted that he did not believe in Allah he would likely be put to death by his own countrymen.

[Jingthing]

If he publicly admitted that he did not believe in Allah he would likely be put to death by his own countrymen.

Yes, quite possibly.

[Steely Dan]

Even if McVeigh and Brevik were (and I think they're not) raving new earthers, believing in creative design and an imminent rapture they would be but two Christian fundamentalist atrocities compared to 17,000 carried out by Islamists in the same time. It is in light of attempts by the left to argue moral equivalence which makes it so important not to mislabel Brevik a Christian fundamentalist.

I can't really agree with you on this. DEAD IS DEAD. Murder is murder. Surely that IS a moral equivalence.

I take this stuff personally as there are a lot of people in the world who would be happy to see me murdered for religious and/or ideological reasons. Some of them are radical Muslims (call them Islamo-fascists if you like) and some of them are radical right wing Christian fundamentalists. In my home country, most of the people who would justify murdering me happen to be the Christian kind. Maybe if your own ass was targeted by the Christian kind you would be more aware that there IS moral equivalence to that kind of murderous hate.

I see what you mean. I was in my remarks thinking of the relative size of the problems caused by religions. Of course on an individual level murder is murder and equally horrific whoever carries it out and for whatever reasons. Incidentally I detest the right wing Christian bigots with a passion, but I just don't happen to believe on a world scale they are as big a problem as Islamic extremists.

P.S I would myself be murdered at least twice based on the yardstick of some extremists.

[Ulysses G.]

I have no use for right wing Christian bigots either and they certainly have no use for me. However, at this point in time, they do not seem to be a threat to the whole planet as radical Islam currently is.

[transam]

I have no use for right wing Christian bigots either and they certainly have no use for me. However, at this point in time, they do not seem to be a threat to the whole planet as radical Islam currently is.

Absolutely correct.

[Pakboong]

If you believe the line that McVeigh wasn't Christian, you are basically mouthing a radical right wing falsehood.

McVeigh himself claimed to be an agnostic who didn't belief in an afterlife, and that if he was wrong he'd adapt and would have company in hell (if it existed, which he didn't think it did). It was explained why he blew up the building in his authorized biography, and it wasn't because God told him to.

McVeigh's scripture was "The Turner Diaries" clearly right wing extreme without a religious connection.

[Steely Dan]

Wondered what the summer camp activities were? Here is Pam Geller.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/07/summer-camp-indoctrination-training-center.html