Thai Army Colonel Faces Attempted Murder Charges

[klikster]

(Ranger School for example might graduate 60% of a class of very fit young soldiers who have already been through the arduous and demanding Jump School. SF training is in many respects even harder).

Actually, my SF training was very mentally demanding .. physically, not so much. Our start-to-finish dropout rate was higher than 60%, IIRC. SF guys had to be pretty smart. Group had a GED testing requirement of 115 for EM. At the time, OCS was 110.

My experience is from the early 60's. I spent more than 1 year in training. Basic, AIT (light weapons infantry) .. then on to jump school (certainly no picnic) .. then SF training. In SF everyone had "Methods of Instruction" and "Branch Training". In between MOI and branch we did our specialty training .. mine was medical, about 8 or 9 months worth.

In only one phase of training did we have hand-to-hand combat training .. in Basic!

I'm sure things have changed .. but most of the "kill with your bare hands" was BS, hype, or Hollywood.

I served and / or trained with the South Vietnamese and the ROK SF. Those ROK's were tough dudes .. don't EVER pick a fight with one.

[SteeleJoe]

(Ranger School for example might graduate 60% of a class of very fit young soldiers who have already been through the arduous and demanding Jump School. SF training is in many respects even harder).

Actually, my SF training was very mentally demanding .. physically, not so much. Our start-to-finish dropout rate was higher than 60%, IIRC. SF guys had to be pretty smart. Group had a GED testing requirement of 115 for EM. At the time, OCS was 110.

My experience is from the early 60's. I spent more than 1 year in training. Basic, AIT (light weapons infantry) .. then on to jump school (certainly no picnic) .. then SF training. In SF everyone had "Methods of Instruction" and "Branch Training". In between MOI and branch we did our specialty training .. mine was medical, about 8 or 9 months worth.

In only one phase of training did we have hand-to-hand combat training .. in Basic!

I'm sure things have changed .. but most of the "kill with your bare hands" was BS, hype, or Hollywood.

I served and / or trained with the South Vietnamese and the ROK SF. Those ROK's were tough dudes .. don't EVER pick a fight with one.

Every SF operator I know agrees that while obviously there were physical demands it was more the mental that was really taxing. Of course, those are people who; like yourself, were already very well conditioned. I know about the ASVAB requirements that existed in the 80s (I met them) and while I didn't know or don't recall if they were higher than required fro OCS, I'd not be surprised (compare your average SF NCO and a 2LT!).

As I said earlier this 'all soldiers are killing specialists' is indeed stuff that civilians come up with...guys like me spent thousand of hours using an M16, or M203 and on my own initiative a 9mm Beretta (as you know, the army doesn't even typically teach enlisted how to use a sidearm) and I had FAR more combat arms training than a typical soldier. We're not talking 1st SFOD-D -- but how many troops in the world get that level of training? Very few indeed. The guys in Hereford?

Oh, and everyone (in my circles/era anyway) knows about the ROKS.

EDITED to remove too much personal info and a bit of chest-beating

Edited July 29, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[SteeleJoe]

Inadvertently removed my kudos to you Klikster: an 18 Delta is, I know, in many respects equal to that of a 1st year resident when it comes to trauma -- and in some ways superior given the ability to do the job without the facilities or support that a doctor has (and of course you were cross-trained in another MOS as well as at Monterey etc)...all medics have my utmost respect but none more than those of the SF.

[TAWP]

He is in fact the fall guy for some idiot kid of a high ranking soldier who was actually driving the car.

Doubtful, as his rank is hardly low enough to be a decent fall-guy. IMHO.

[geriatrickid]

Judged by his facial characteristics? Lucky for him that he's not black - he'd already be hanging from a tree!

As a black man, I am deeply offended by your stupid remark, I have not received a less courteous treatment from anybody, be it Thai or an Aussie.

You should stop all the bar girl nonsense that you ve picked up. Thai treat everyone equally, if you are an arse, they treat you like an arse, whether you are pink, white or green.

I am sorry if I offended you. I was trying to point out that a previous post judging a person's guilt or innocence by the look on, and of, his face was ridiculous, especially in the case of a person of different race to the poster. As he is an American, I presumed to use his own country's history of racial discrimination to make my point.

Wrong again. I am not a US citizen, nor have ever held US citizenship. I do have ease of access into the US compared to other non US nationals. It happens when one has job skills and an endearing disposition. And the facial expressions and behaviour of an accused do offer insight into the guilt of the accused.. That too has been proven by a large number of peer reviewed academic studies. However in thiscase I did not claim that the man's facial expressions mad ehim guilty. I just wrote that he ought to get rid of the smirk. If he stands before a judge with that look on hs mug he's not going reassure anyone.

[OzMick]

Judged by his facial characteristics? Lucky for him that he's not black - he'd already be hanging from a tree!

As a black man, I am deeply offended by your stupid remark, I have not received a less courteous treatment from anybody, be it Thai or an Aussie.

You should stop all the bar girl nonsense that you ve picked up. Thai treat everyone equally, if you are an arse, they treat you like an arse, whether you are pink, white or green.

I am sorry if I offended you. I was trying to point out that a previous post judging a person's guilt or innocence by the look on, and of, his face was ridiculous, especially in the case of a person of different race to the poster. As he is an American, I presumed to use his own country's history of racial discrimination to make my point.

Wrong again. I am not a US citizen, nor have ever held US citizenship. I do have ease of access into the US compared to other non US nationals. It happens when one has job skills and an endearing disposition. And the facial expressions and behaviour of an accused do offer insight into the guilt of the accused.. That too has been proven by a large number of peer reviewed academic studies. However in thiscase I did not claim that the man's facial expressions mad ehim guilty. I just wrote that he ought to get rid of the smirk. If he stands before a judge with that look on hs mug he's not going reassure anyone.

" And the facial expressions and behaviour of an accused do offer insight into the guilt of the accused." REALLY! What if his "smirk" is his normal facial expression, or caused by a facial nerve damage? A scar causing him to "sneer" would have him in deep doo-doo. If they threw in charges of jaywalking, or pedophilia, would he be guilty of that as well? Perhaps he should wear a white hat to confuse the issue a little?

Also consider that he is from a different culture - one where people laugh when embarassed, and at other times which seem inappropriate to a westerner. This shouldn't be a problem with a Thai judge - but he might consider your behaviour bizarre if your selective compliance ever catches you out.

Justice has a sword, scales and a BLINDFOLD, and judges are supposedly erudite enough to overcome prejudices; your academic studies might well be showing that they fail. Prisons are full of ugly, stupid and mentally ill people, and more than a few are there because they failed to live up to pre-conceived stereotypes of their accusers, judges, and their so-called peers.

[BuckarooBanzai]

On topic but along a separate train of thought is a question regarding the Thai medical communities ability to properly treat head trauma. My bother-in-law was struck in the head by a drunk with a piece of timber and was severely injured. I would guess the injury would be similar to that suffered by the young lady in this thread as he entered a coma for several weeks and never did recover mentally. In the west a very common course of action would be to remove a portion of the skull to allow the brain to swell while minimizing permanent damage. I have never heard of that being done in Thailand. I realize there are other methods to reduce swelling but none are as effective in severe head trauma cases as removal of a portion of the skull. Perhaps someone with a medical background (Sheryl?) can tell us why the differences in treatment, or lack thereof, if indeed my perception is correct. Personally, from my observations to date, Thailand is one of the last places I would want to suffer a head trauma. By the way, although my bother-in-law eventually died from his injuries the young drunk got off scott free and his father paid off the family with 100,000 baht. Who said life in Thailand is cheap?

[Heng]

He is in fact the fall guy for some idiot kid of a high ranking soldier who was actually driving the car.

Doubtful, as his rank is hardly low enough to be a decent fall-guy. IMHO.

The lower ranked fall guys tend to be morons. A colonel has the experience to visualize, plan, and act through on his deception. And there are plenty of Thai army colonels who have the experience but are still piss poor. A great combination when you're hiring for a job (just ask those who hire from the large pool of Russians in the same circumstances).

[Colin Yai]

Rumor among the Thais is that this is NOT the guy who was driving. This is also what the mother of the doctor believes as well. He is in fact the fall guy for some idiot kid of a high ranking soldier who was actually driving the car. I think the Thai way is to save face is to come up with a fall guy, have a trial, justice is served, he spends a few months in jail, then he quietly walks out the back. Spend some time in a temple, change your name, and get right back into the swing of things.

He has to be found guilty first before doing his "bird", my money is he will "walk" on a "technicality".

[SteeleJoe]

He is in fact the fall guy for some idiot kid of a high ranking soldier who was actually driving the car.

Doubtful, as his rank is hardly low enough to be a decent fall-guy. IMHO.

The lower ranked fall guys tend to be morons. A colonel has the experience to visualize, plan, and act through on his deception. And there are plenty of Thai army colonels who have the experience but are still piss poor. A great combination when you're hiring for a job (just ask those who hire from the large pool of Russians in the same circumstances).

Since when does a fall guy typically visualize and plan the deception? By definition a "fall guy" isn't in on it and is an unwitting victim. What has been suggested is that this guy is a compliant (for whatever reason) proxy -- and such guys don't have to visualize and plan anything -- they goes along with their orders.

BTW I reckon any Colonel in the RTA who is piss poor can't be very bright -- or is extraordinarily honest and law-abiding (to a degree that quitye likely would impede his rise to that rank and perhaps not be warmly accepted by his peers). You'd actually have to put in some effort to avoid getting to some degree enriched by virtue of your job. (Russia, I suspect, doesn't have as many of the same sort of opportunities or as easily accessible wealth as Thailand does.)

[TAWP]

A poor and honest colonel wouldn't accept being a fall-guy.

[SteeleJoe]

A poor and honest colonel wouldn't accept being a fall-guy.

Exactly. (That was meant to be implicit in my post -- but it probably wasn't.)

[Heng]

He is in fact the fall guy for some idiot kid of a high ranking soldier who was actually driving the car.

Doubtful, as his rank is hardly low enough to be a decent fall-guy. IMHO.

The lower ranked fall guys tend to be morons. A colonel has the experience to visualize, plan, and act through on his deception. And there are plenty of Thai army colonels who have the experience but are still piss poor. A great combination when you're hiring for a job (just ask those who hire from the large pool of Russians in the same circumstances).

Since when does a fall guy typically visualize and plan the deception? By definition a "fall guy" isn't in on it and is an unwitting victim. What has been suggested is that this guy is a compliant (for whatever reason) proxy -- and such guys don't have to visualize and plan anything -- they goes along with their orders.

BTW I reckon any Colonel in the RTA who is piss poor can't be very bright -- or is extraordinarily honest and law-abiding (to a degree that quitye likely would impede his rise to that rank and perhaps not be warmly accepted by his peers). You'd actually have to put in some effort to avoid getting to some degree enriched by virtue of your job. (Russia, I suspect, doesn't have as many of the same sort of opportunities or as easily accessible wealth as Thailand does.)

Just semantics then. A fall guy can most certainly be willing and capable of taking the 'fall' for someone else. Being poor is relative. I don't think being honest even plays into the equation in this case. He can need the cash for any of a number of reasons, the most common of which in the RTA and RTP: is mismanagement of one's wealth, lack of a system to acquire more, and the inherent time limit to everyone's turn at the trough. He likely owes a number of favors (like... Colonel Fallguy, I know it's 3am, but you do owe me for that thing with the camcorders and scotch miniskirt school girls, no, I mean the 2nd time...), which may also be a factor when it comes time to take the fall for someone.

[SteeleJoe]

Just semantics then. A fall guy can most certainly be willing and capable of taking the 'fall' for someone else. Being poor is relative. I don't think being honest even plays into the equation in this case. He can need the cash for any of a number of reasons, the most common of which in the RTA and RTP: is mismanagement of one's wealth, lack of a system to acquire more, and the inherent time limit to everyone's turn at the trough. He likely owes a number of favors (like... Colonel Fallguy, I know it's 3am, but you do owe me for that thing with the camcorders and scotch miniskirt school girls, no, I mean the 2nd time...), which may also be a factor when it comes time to take the fall for someone.

Excellent post.

It is semantics if you were merely using the phrase wrong or differently than what I have found it to mean, rather than being illogical, which is what I thought.

Being poor is relative. But "piss poor" is pretty specific. And if he's piss poor -- which I doubt (wasn't it his SUV?) -- then he may be bad at managing money but I don't think he'd have much trouble coming up with some as a Colonel. And corruption in the RTA and RTP is systematic and systemic -- there are ways to acquire more and steadily -- especially for those of senior rank. (And also don't forget, he's got people who owe him too)

But this is obviously all speculation and while I would venture that we both make a reasonable argument here, it's hardly as if we can settle it, is it? Nor does it matter (to either of us, I'm sure).

[Colin Yai]

Judged by his facial characteristics? Lucky for him that he's not black - he'd already be hanging from a tree!

As a black man, I am deeply offended by your stupid remark, I have not received a less courteous treatment from anybody, be it Thai or an Aussie.

You should stop all the bar girl nonsense that you ve picked up. Thai treat everyone equally, if you are an arse, they treat you like an arse, whether you are pink, white or green.

Yes I agree it is a silly remark , meant I would think as a joke rather than anything personal , however in truth Thai's do not treat all people alike ,even fellow Thai's, as dark skin is considered inferior to white ,one only has to look at the TV adds to see this with the masses of skin whitening agents ,soaps etc , which is a billion baht business, look at all the TV"stars" nearly all milk bottle white ,many I would add as "mixed race", of course this is in no way a slur of any kind on yourself ,its just a simple fact of Thai life , that to A Thai skin colour means quite a lot ,I think its total non sense but I am not Thai, and I still remember the late and great MLK saying "you do not judge a man by the colour of his skin ,but by the content of his character . Edited July 31, 2011 by Colin Yai

[Heng]

Excellent post.

It is semantics if you were merely using the phrase wrong or differently than what I have found it to mean, rather than being illogical, which is what I thought.

Being poor is relative. But "piss poor" is pretty specific. And if he's piss poor -- which I doubt (wasn't it his SUV?) -- then he may be bad at managing money but I don't think he'd have much trouble coming up with some as a Colonel. And corruption in the RTA and RTP is systematic and systemic -- there are ways to acquire more and steadily -- especially for those of senior rank. (And also don't forget, he's got people who owe him too)

But this is obviously all speculation and while I would venture that we both make a reasonable argument here, it's hardly as if we can settle it, is it? Nor does it matter (to either of us, I'm sure).

Yeah, no worries.

Really poor, piss poor, too poor to buy a pot to piss in, all relative IMO. Piss poor as not having enough cash flow to meet one's requirements. You can be piss poor with several homes and and SUV if you can't afford them. I've seen more than a few former CEO's of finance companies (used to own neighborhoods, yacht and small aircraft) who are now piss poor (driving a Vios to their professor job that some former client called in a favor for). It's relative.

There really is a time limit, even for those of senior rank. Tribute doesn't continually get 'kicked up' to you forever. Once your power wanes, so does the tribute. For a good majority (just IMO, IME), most still have their boatload of expenses (toys, SUVs, mia nois, etc. etc.... you'd be surprised how many don't buy real estate, and for those that do, are still making payments on said property when their cash flow runs out) when their power wanes. It makes for a lot of people who once had significant revenue to become, again IMO... piss poor. This people flop around like fish out of water trying to make ends meet, just like the folks at the very bottom of the food chain living hand to mouth.

[rgs2001uk]

Excellent post.

It is semantics if you were merely using the phrase wrong or differently than what I have found it to mean, rather than being illogical, which is what I thought.

Being poor is relative. But "piss poor" is pretty specific. And if he's piss poor -- which I doubt (wasn't it his SUV?) -- then he may be bad at managing money but I don't think he'd have much trouble coming up with some as a Colonel. And corruption in the RTA and RTP is systematic and systemic -- there are ways to acquire more and steadily -- especially for those of senior rank. (And also don't forget, he's got people who owe him too)

But this is obviously all speculation and while I would venture that we both make a reasonable argument here, it's hardly as if we can settle it, is it? Nor does it matter (to either of us, I'm sure).

Yeah, no worries.

Really poor, piss poor, too poor to buy a pot to piss in, all relative IMO. Piss poor as not having enough cash flow to meet one's requirements. You can be piss poor with several homes and and SUV if you can't afford them. I've seen more than a few former CEO's of finance companies (used to own neighborhoods, yacht and small aircraft) who are now piss poor (driving a Vios to their professor job that some former client called in a favor for). It's relative.

There really is a time limit, even for those of senior rank. Tribute doesn't continually get 'kicked up' to you forever. Once your power wanes, so does the tribute. For a good majority (just IMO, IME), most still have their boatload of expenses (toys, SUVs, mia nois, etc. etc.... you'd be surprised how many don't buy real estate, and for those that do, are still making payments on said property when their cash flow runs out) when their power wanes. It makes for a lot of people who once had significant revenue to become, again IMO... piss poor. This people flop around like fish out of water trying to make ends meet, just like the folks at the very bottom of the food chain living hand to mouth.

We have had similair conversations before Heng, regarding the, "phone a friend" option.

Trouble with that is, the phone line works both ways, one day some one will call in the marker, so playing the "dont you know who I am" or "get out of jail free card" aint free.

Have had friends tell me not to bother phoning, not because they dont want to help, they just dont want to be beholden to someone else because of my stupidty.

All part of the parlour games acted out everyday.

[Heng]

Yeah, I recall that conversation. And yeah, it does go both ways, that's the nature and physics of most things anyway. Nothing wrong with letting those Venetian and Sands chips accrue into large towers in front of you without calling them in though. It's the same peace of mind that comes from having cash reserves or redundant insurance policies. Sometimes there is plenty of 'value added' to just being able to cash them in without actually doing so. Sure, they eventually lose their value, but you also get to keep from getting too tangled up in 'things.' And if you really need them, they're still there just in case.