Do Shower Heaters Include A Safety Cut Off

[thaibeachlovers]

House I'm currently in does not have an RCD.

I'm hoping to install an electric shower heater ( 3.5 kw ). I'll be using an electrician to do the installation.

My question is whether the box comes with its own safety cut out, and how will I know if it does. Not going to trust the sales staff on this.

Thanks.

[ozzydom]

No ,not normally, and make sure the sparks fits an earth wire to the unit.

[lopburi3]

There will be a test button and a reset lever so should be easy to see. Be sure that they also run a ground wire. I would highly recommend getting an RCD for the home as it could save your life and they do not cost that much.

[thaibeachlovers]

Thanks for those replies, and if there is one thing I've learned on this forum it's to put an earth wire on a shower heater. I've even brought the earth rods with me, and some 4mm earth wire. Taking no chances!

[kokesaat]

As for not trusting the sale staff, I agree. As for trusting the electrician to do a proper job, I'd use caution. A lot of local electricians will cut corners or simply not follow the rules.

[falkan]

how do you say to the electrician that you want to install RCD in the house in Thai?

[sezze]

how do you say to the electrician that you want to install RCD in the house in Thai?

Buy the safety box yourself . It has all the fuses , RCD or RCBO fitted . Safety box completely fitted with all fuses and things like that included are from around 2000 baht up . That way you give it to them and say you want to change the one which is there ( guillotine safety ?? ) to this one . Make sure you put it on the lowest value ( meaning max safety ) .

[Crossy]

There will be a test button and a reset lever so should be easy to see. Be sure that they also run a ground wire. I would highly recommend getting an RCD for the home as it could save your life and they do not cost that much.

Agree 100%.

The built in RCDs whilst definitely a safety advantage don't protect from contact with the incoming supply to the heater.

A whole-house RCD installation will protect you and your family wherever they are within the home, a worthwhile investment.

[lopburi3]

Buy the safety box yourself . It has all the fuses , RCD or RCBO fitted . Safety box completely fitted with all fuses and things like that included are from around 2000 baht up...

The normal whole house unit it not in a box but stand alone Safe-t-cut or another such brand which replaces the main fuse/breaker before any breaker box. You can buy a large panel to include this and box or mount on surface or buy a box/breaker combination. But the cost will be a bit more that 2k (the main RCCD will likely cost more than that).

[thaibeachlovers]

Buy the safety box yourself . It has all the fuses , RCD or RCBO fitted . Safety box completely fitted with all fuses and things like that included are from around 2000 baht up...

The normal whole house unit it not in a box but stand alone Safe-t-cut or another such brand which replaces the main fuse/breaker before any breaker box. You can buy a large panel to include this and box or mount on surface or buy a box/breaker combination. But the cost will be a bit more that 2k (the main RCCD will likely cost more than that).

Yes. 5000 bht in Homepro!

Thanks for all the replies.

[sezze]

I do not remember paying 5k for my box from Homepro Sate-t-cut . They start from 2k with less breakers , mine is a 8 circuit breaker and RCCD ( well i do not now the english terms but 1 who goes of at different mA settings ). I think for 5 k you have a 16 breaker system or something like that . 8 breaker is enough for my house since i do not have aircon / elec hot water . I Think i paid around 3.5k . My total house elec was around 8000 baht to 9000 baht ( Bticino ) , no earth.

[lopburi3]

I highly suspect you did not obtain an RCCD device but just a normal breaker box and main breaker at such a price (Safe-t-cut does make normal units now). RCCD devices do cost more than that.

As mentioned does the master breaker have a test button on it which trips the breaker when pushed?

[elgato]

There will be a test button and a reset lever so should be easy to see. Be sure that they also run a ground wire. I would highly recommend getting an RCD for the home as it could save your life and they do not cost that much.

Agree 100%.

The built in RCDs whilst definitely a safety advantage don't protect from contact with the incoming supply to the heater.

A whole-house RCD installation will protect you and your family wherever they are within the home, a worthwhile investment.

Sage advice.

[sezze]

I highly suspect you did not obtain an RCCD device but just a normal breaker box and main breaker at such a price (Safe-t-cut does make normal units now). RCCD devices do cost more than that.

As mentioned does the master breaker have a test button on it which trips the breaker when pushed?

Yes , it does have a push test button and a setting from i think 5 mA up to 300 mA . I can check again when i'm in the house as i am in Europe at the moment .

Looking at the internet i found this one which i think is 100% the same like mine .

They are very common in all shops where you can find elec devices .

[electau]

With regard to post #14 by sezze.

RCDs are generally 10mA or 30mA and are of fixed setting (IEC). However adjustable units (TIS) are available in Thailand from 5mA to 30mA.

RCDs are available in 300mA but they are not used for the protection of persons.They are used for protection of equipment only.

[lopburi3]

I highly suspect you did not obtain an RCCD device but just a normal breaker box and main breaker at such a price (Safe-t-cut does make normal units now). RCCD devices do cost more than that.

As mentioned does the master breaker have a test button on it which trips the breaker when pushed?

Yes , it does have a push test button and a setting from i think 5 mA up to 300 mA . I can check again when i'm in the house as i am in Europe at the moment .

Looking at the internet i found this one which i think is 100% the same like mine .

They are very common in all shops where you can find elec devices .

You may be right at 3,500 baht for your model and seems to make for a nice installation at a very reasonable price - but lowest price I can find is (32A 4 Breaker) 2,500 baht at:http://www.thaionlinemarket.com/question.asp?QID=132398

[thaibeachlovers]

I do not remember paying 5k for my box from Homepro Sate-t-cut . They start from 2k with less breakers , mine is a 8 circuit breaker and RCCD ( well i do not now the english terms but 1 who goes of at different mA settings ). I think for 5 k you have a 16 breaker system or something like that . 8 breaker is enough for my house since i do not have aircon / elec hot water . I Think i paid around 3.5k . My total house elec was around 8000 baht to 9000 baht ( Bticino ) , no earth.

I was talking about the stand alone box- not the consumer unit, and when I was in Home Pro in Pattaya they were around 5,000 bht. I didn't get one there- went to a local electrical supply shop in Naklua, and they found one for me at 3,000 baht. Mind you it is an RCBO, not an RCD.

[sezze]

OK , I did not know the RCBO was different then a RCD . Like i said , i'm not familiar with the english terms of these devices . I think , changing the standard knife safety , or breaker to this kind of device , you are pretty safe allready even without ground ( put it on lowest settings possible ) .

Yeah 3500 or something like that is what i paid , certainly less then 5k .

Stand alone boxes , i've seen them , but i do not know prices . I thought this offered me the same protection in 1 box solution ...

[lopburi3]

Actually believe all the units we are talking about for consumer use are RCBO as they all have master breaker as part of the unit (which the RCD portion trips). The whole subject is a quagmire with GFI/GFCI/RCD/RCCB/RCBD/RCCD and probably a dozen others. What sezze shows in photo is a nice looking unit with a master breaker and subbreakers for circuits as well as an RCD all in one unit. I have several Clipsal units where the RCCB is smaller but believe they cost a bit more and in box I have only allow 7 circuits.

[thaibeachlovers]

Checked out a few places today, and ALL the shower units have a safety cut out, though they call theirs ELB, ELCB, or ESD. As far as I can tell on the internet, all the same thing.

Anyway, it looks like the Panasonic or Hitachi will be the deal, for around 3,500 bht plus electrician. Would have prefered a gas heater, but they're all way too expensive, plus the ventilation problem.

[mickba]

Checked out a few places today, and ALL the shower units have a safety cut out, though they call theirs ELB, ELCB, or ESD. As far as I can tell on the internet, all the same thing.

Anyway, it looks like the Panasonic or Hitachi will be the deal, for around 3,500 bht plus electrician. Would have prefered a gas heater, but they're all way too expensive, plus the ventilation problem.

Thanks for the thread, it's got me back up to speed on these things.

When I left the UK we were using ELCBs preset at 30 Ma for protection of people and animals. I was in farming and I believe lower than 30 Ma would have made for too much nuisance tripping and alarms, but in a domestic installation it might work OK down a lot lower than that.

Here in Thailand, following a problem with my water heater, I find my house does not have RCD protection, but it does have an earth.

I started reading this because I too am about to fit a Panasonic 3.5 Kw shower. It does have its own breaker, but I don't imagine they are as reliable as a stand alone RCD?

Therefore I was looking for an answer as to what Amperage RCD I needed to fit alongside the shower.

I was also considering fitting another one alongside my water heater.

Now that I realise I don't have whole house protection, I'm planning to buy a new Consumer Unit incorporating RCD, such as described above.

This is my existing Consumer Unit.

As you may notice, sometimes Grey is Live and Black is Neutral and sometimes it's reversed. Also there are Green Cables (most of which are Earth) in the Neutral bar. I hope to understand more later.

The Twin cable and the Green cable sticking out are the intended individual supply to the new shower.

....Click to Enlarge.

My main question now is whether, after fitting a new CU, I should I still fit individual RCDs next to the high risk items (showers, water heater and pump).

My preference would be that if there is a problem then the local trip would go first, rather than whole house going off = loss of lighting and damage/disruption to computers etc.

The stand alone RCDs are presumably pre-set, so, if I bought a CU with adjustable RCD and set that (say) 10 Ma higher than the other ones, would that work.

Finally, to avoid the darkness issue, can one still fit the lighting circuit MCB the 'wrong' side of the RCD?

Please feel free to shoot me down if I've got any of this wrong.

Thanks for any advice.

Edited October 27, 2011 by mickba

[bmwbloch]

I have chosen to have a solar heater installed and feed all bathrooms and kitchen.

Guys take advantage of sunny Thailand. Upfront cost is higher but but no ugly life threatening box in your bathroom either. Large upscale hotels use them, so can you.

[mickba]

..................................................................

My main question now is whether, after fitting a new CU, I should I still fit individual RCDs next to the high risk items (showers, water heater and pump).

My preference would be that if there is a problem then the local trip would go first,...............................................

Regarding the Panasonic shower, I just looked inside and it seems like a good quality RCD - 30A and 15 Ma - so I won't fit another RCD next to that one.

My other shower claims to have an ELCB, but the Test/Reset buttons do nothing so I need to check that one.

If I then fit a 30A 15Ma RCD to the socket supplying the Immersion Water Heater and a 30 Ma RCD in the main CU i think I'm sorted - yes or not?

@ bmwbloch - There are threads on Solar Heating I've read here before. It seems like a good idea but the capital cost is high so it takes too long to get your money back (if ever). It's different logic for a hotel business. The temperature of incoming water is already quite high from S/S tanks, so it doesn't cost much to get it up to shower temperature for a few minutes. The Steibel Eltron Hot Water tank is in sunlight much of the day and is very cost efficient for occasional jacuzzi use. When i built a new house I planned to make my own solar panels and system. It can be very cheap, but the imported systems are certainly not. Anyway, off topic for this thread.

[thaibeachlovers]

Checked out a few places today, and ALL the shower units have a safety cut out, though they call theirs ELB, ELCB, or ESD. As far as I can tell on the internet, all the same thing.

Anyway, it looks like the Panasonic or Hitachi will be the deal, for around 3,500 bht plus electrician. Would have prefered a gas heater, but they're all way too expensive, plus the ventilation problem.

Thanks for the thread, it's got me back up to speed on these things.

When I left the UK we were using ELCBs preset at 30 Ma for protection of people and animals. I was in farming and I believe lower than 30 Ma would have made for too much nuisance tripping and alarms, but in a domestic installation it might work OK down a lot lower than that.

Here in Thailand, following a problem with my water heater, I find my house does not have RCD protection, but it does have an earth.

I started reading this because I too am about to fit a Panasonic 3.5 Kw shower. It does have its own breaker, but I don't imagine they are as reliable as a stand alone RCD?

Therefore I was looking for an answer as to what Amperage RCD I needed to fit alongside the shower.

I was also considering fitting another one alongside my water heater.

Now that I realise I don't have whole house protection, I'm planning to buy a new Consumer Unit incorporating RCD, such as described above.

This is my existing Consumer Unit.

As you may notice, sometimes Grey is Live and Black is Neutral and sometimes it's reversed. Also there are Green Cables (most of which are Earth) in the Neutral bar. I hope to understand more later.

The Twin cable and the Green cable sticking out are the intended individual supply to the new shower.

....Click to Enlarge.

My main question now is whether, after fitting a new CU, I should I still fit individual RCDs next to the high risk items (showers, water heater and pump).

My preference would be that if there is a problem then the local trip would go first, rather than whole house going off = loss of lighting and damage/disruption to computers etc.

The stand alone RCDs are presumably pre-set, so, if I bought a CU with adjustable RCD and set that (say) 10 Ma higher than the other ones, would that work.

Finally, to avoid the darkness issue, can one still fit the lighting circuit MCB the 'wrong' side of the RCD?

Please feel free to shoot me down if I've got any of this wrong.

Thanks for any advice.

From Crossy elsewhere, the ELCB in the shower only serves the unit, but NOT the power supply to the unit.

[Kwasaki]

..................................................................

My main question now is whether, after fitting a new CU, I should I still fit individual RCDs next to the high risk items (showers, water heater and pump).

Regarding the Panasonic shower, I just looked inside and it seems like a good quality RCD - 30A and 15 Ma - so I won't fit another RCD next to that one.

My other shower claims to have an ELCB, but the Test/Reset buttons do nothing so I need to check that one.

If I then fit a 30A 15Ma RCD to the socket supplying the Immersion Water Heater and a 30 Ma RCD in the main CU i think I'm sorted - yes or not?

I think you should wait until Crossy or electau come on or look at this http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/ or start another thread.

You talk of earth going into neutral connections so you may have a ' MEN ' system installed.

It's seem to me anyhow your getting your RCD's mixed up with the ELB and the MCB and I'm not sure what you mean by Ma.

You only need to install one RCD positioned at the incoming supply to the house, you can have an isolator before that if you want.

The RCD is then connected The Dist box which has MCB's.

The MCB 's then supply the house wiring.

Before the shower units and heaters, air-con etc it's good to have safety breaker switches.

Shower units have there own ELB.

These appliances that should be earthed back to the Dist box.

The main earth wire is connected to the relative earth system you have.

Oh !! and the ELB

' s on showers only work if the power is on to them, no power no workey.

[bankruatsteve]

From Crossy elsewhere, the ELCB in the shower only serves the unit, but NOT the power supply to the unit.

Huh?

[mickba]

From Crossy elsewhere, the ELCB in the shower only serves the unit, but NOT the power supply to the unit.

Huh?

I took it to mean that the ELCB in the shower unit would break the supply from it to the boiler etc in the unit, thus preventing electric shock to the user.

However, the supply from the Consumer Unit to the ELCB in the shower unit would still be live. To cut that would require an ELCB/RCD in the Consumer Unit.

I don't want the whole house to trip out, so I'm thinking that with a 15 mA trip in the shower, a 30 mA in the Consumer Unit would give me the cover I want............I think.

[bankruatsteve]

From Crossy elsewhere, the ELCB in the shower only serves the unit, but NOT the power supply to the unit.

Huh?

I took it to mean that the ELCB in the shower unit would break the supply from it to the boiler etc in the unit, thus preventing electric shock to the user.

However, the supply from the Consumer Unit to the ELCB in the shower unit would still be live. To cut that would require an ELCB/RCD in the Consumer Unit.

I don't want the whole house to trip out, so I'm thinking that with a 15 mA trip in the shower, a 30 mA in the Consumer Unit would give me the cover I want............I think.

I don't think that's what Crossy was saying, but he can elaborate if so. Yes, the ELCB only protects the unit. I don't know why you are worried about the wires, but RCD at the CU is extra protection - which could be debated, I suppose.

[mickba]

From Crossy elsewhere, the ELCB in the shower only serves the unit, but NOT the power supply to the unit.

Huh?

I took it to mean that the ELCB in the shower unit would break the supply from it to the boiler etc in the unit, thus preventing electric shock to the user.

However, the supply from the Consumer Unit to the ELCB in the shower unit would still be live. To cut that would require an ELCB/RCD in the Consumer Unit.

I don't want the whole house to trip out, so I'm thinking that with a 15 mA trip in the shower, a 30 mA in the Consumer Unit would give me the cover I want............I think.

I don't think that's what Crossy was saying, but he can elaborate if so. Yes, the ELCB only protects the unit. I don't know why you are worried about the wires, but RCD at the CU is extra protection - which could be debated, I suppose.

Sorry, i haven't found Crossy's post yet, so i was just saying what I thought the OP meant in his post.

I'm not particularly worried about the cables from the shower 15 mA ELCB back to the CU, but I assume 30 mA protection on the whole house (possibly excluding fridge freezer and some lights if possible) would be a good idea?

[electau]

Shower heaters conforming to Thai Industrial Standards (TIS) are fitted with a 10mA RCD unit integral with the unit as an ON/OFF switch.

The heater should be earthed either to the existing earthing system or earthed to an individual electrode if the former is not possible.

The circuit to the heater should be protected by a 30mA RCD. The shower heater should be permanently connected in an approved manner.

Yes, it would be recommended that all final subcircuits be protected by one or more 30mA RCDs depending on the distribution of the circuits within the electrical installation.