for the record: the €UR worked... nicely and for a whole decade...

more for the record: the €UR will not cease to exist. perhaps with less countries using it as currency. time will tell.

True but you must admit a decade is a very short lifespan for even a Fiat currency

Yes time will tell.

i'm a pragmatic and realist Flying. for me the lifespan of a currency is of no relevance if... the bottom line of my portfolio is not affected in a negative way.

moreover, i am convinced that the €URo's lifespan is longer than my statistically remaining lifespan.

Surely anyone can 'use' the Euro.

Sorry, HB, in the interests of brevity, my post was obscure. When I said 'use', I meant 'have as its main, or official, currency '(as the dong is in Vietnam, the rial (I think) in Cambodia, and the kip in Laos, in spite of the fact that dollars, euros, and even Thai baht may be freely in use).

For Andorra, I believe, official approval by the EZ is still pending, but if you've ever been there, you'll realise that it couldn't be other than the currency in normal use. Geography dictates that!

for the record: the €UR worked... nicely and for a whole decade... especially for the German export dominated industry which raked in many more billions profit than the good old Deutsche Mark would have allowed. quite some of these billions seeped down to those who will pay in future for the damage done, namely to those German taxpayers who enjoyed safe employment and good salaries.

more for the record: the €UR will not cease to exist. perhaps with less countries using it as currency. time will tell.

You make the point yourself, Naam... it worked very well for the Germans (or perhaps just the Germans worked very well).

The real underlying problem is that not all countries in the group will manage their finances equally well. Somehow the Southern European countries in particular seem to have lost control a bit.

But there is no doubt to my mind that the Euro will continue to exist for a long time yet... again largely because the Germans will ensure that it does.

Don’t split Europe; make it stronger

I don’t know whether to weep or laugh. Eurozone leaders have turned a €50bn Greek solvency problem into a €1,000bn existential crisis for the European Union. Barack Obama cannot remember “whether it was Merkel, Sarkozy or Barroso” – no first names or titles – who told him, as grand hopes for the Cannes summit turned to dust, “welcome to European politics”. And David Cameron calls on the European Commission – the embodiment of “Brussels” bureaucracy and elitism that his government loves to hate – to prevent the 17 countries of the eurozone running the EU show in their own interests.

The only people satisfied are eurosceptics and federalists. Both say ‘I told you so’. Both make valid points about weaknesses of Europe’s hybrid structure – part intergovernmental and part supranational. Both feed off each other to tell their own supporters that now is the moment to break with the compromises of the past.

Every political system is a balance of efficiency and legitimacy. The sceptics sacrifice efficiency for legitimacy. Their arguments about sovereignty ignore the reality of an interdependent world – in which regional co-ordination and collaboration is going to become increasingly important. The federalists substitute efficiency for legitimacy. They ignore the reality that national particularities, far from disappearing, are on the rise.

The Lisbon treaty tried to square the circle. The post of president of the European Council, a former head of government to chair the meetings of heads of government, was created expressly to “drive forward its work on a continuous and consistent basis” and “make the EU’s actions more visible and consistent”. In other words, bang heads together and reach out to the people.

But the truth is that European politics and politicians have been unable to cope with the triple blow of slow (and slowing) economic growth, rising sovereign debts and unstable financial institutions. Chancellor Angela Merkel and her senior colleagues have prime responsibility, but ‘President’ van Rompuy has been invisible.

The danger of the current situation is that both sceptics and federalists get their way as the EU splits between core and periphery. The eurozone does need a stronger centre. That will enlarge the gap between ins and outs, ‘vanguard’ and ‘rearguard’. And the eurozone countries will seek to get their way in the wider EU, or go it alone.

For Britain, it is a fateful development. Governments have sought to prevent a two-speed Europe for 40 years. Edward Heath celebrated our entry into “the framework of a single community”. Margaret Thatcher embraced the deepest of single markets. John Major played with ‘variable geometry’. Tony Blair put it into practice by supporting stronger European foreign, energy and environmental policy from outside the euro.

In every case the UK feared a two-speed Europe would leave us in the second division. And we have made the argument that the rest of the EU would be much worse off without us. British politicians need to make the case that Europe is better off with Britain on the inside as passionately as we argue that Britain needs a strong Europe.

The government’s decision to make the repatriation of powers from Brussels its top priority for European negotiations is deluded and dangerous. Deluded because the last thing other countries, including the other ‘outs’ from the eurozone, want is to ally themselves with a quixotic British campaign. Dangerous because the failure to negotiate these repatriations will only intensify the fury of the sceptics.

Second, every country needs an alliance with Germany. That is especially the case for a UK determined to avoid a slide to the European exit door. German fears of a transfer union provide the opening. We should be supporting the Berlin-inspired treaty change that enforces shared responsibility for the eurozone’s economic future across its members. The quid pro quo would be buffers against a two-speed Europe – safeguarding the rights of non-euro members and preserving enhanced co-operation in areas beyond macroeconomic policy.

Third, Britain needs to play to its comparative advantages in defence and foreign policy, and its interests in energy, to help move the EU forward. This is not about being “good Europeans”. It is about national interest in an outward-looking Europe.

Fourth, although Europe is now a danger to the rest of the world’s economic prospects, the rest of the world is not standing still. In the next two years, the EU negotiates a new budget for the seven years until 2020. The shock of the eurozone crisis needs to be a spur to budgetary reform (and not just budget limits). In universities, infrastructure and innovation Europe (beyond Germany) needs to chart a new growth path.

Fifth, we should be making the Lisbon treaty work. In spite of opposition to its passage, the government said they would make its innovations work. President van Rompuy is up for re-election in June. He needs to up his game in a big way – above all its vision and projection.

Sixth, Britain must build coalitions across the in/out divide. It is no good confining ourselves to dinner with the outs. We need a positive vision for an open, prosperous Europe to sell across the 27 countries.

These are issues for politicians of all parties. But they are a matter for business too. It is no good complaining about the short term posturing of politicians if business and trade unions don’t speak up. Reform will be arduous. But the alternative, opting out by design or mistake, would be disastrous.

The writer is the MP for South Shields, and former British foreign secretary.

http://blogs.ft.com/the-a-list/2011/11/14/dont-split-europe-make-it-stronger/?#axzz1dhAmjXoe

for the record: the €UR worked... nicely and for a whole decade... especially for the German export dominated industry which raked in many more billions profit than the good old Deutsche Mark would have allowed. quite some of these billions seeped down to those who will pay in future for the damage done, namely to those German taxpayers who enjoyed safe employment and good salaries.

more for the record: the €UR will not cease to exist. perhaps with less countries using it as currency. time will tell.

You make the point yourself, Naam... it worked very well for the Germans (or perhaps just the Germans worked very well).

The real underlying problem is that not all countries in the group will manage their finances equally well. Somehow the Southern European countries in particular seem to have lost control a bit.

But there is no doubt to my mind that the Euro will continue to exist for a long time yet... again largely because the Germans will ensure that it does.

it worked for all well IB. unfortunately it worked too well for the ClubMed who's governments and citizens suddenly enjoyed financing existing and new debt at 3 and 4% €UR interest rates instead of 12, 13, 14 and 15% for Lira, Peseta, Escudo and Drachma. add to that tax evasion, generous social benefits, "siesta" mentality combined with an unwillingness to work hard and you reach the result we are looking at today.

most disgusting is the fact that some of the culprits as well as outsiders turn around and play the game "thief blames party from which he has stolen."

for the record: the €UR worked... nicely and for a whole decade... especially for the German export dominated industry which raked in many more billions profit than the good old Deutsche Mark would have allowed. quite some of these billions seeped down to those who will pay in future for the damage done, namely to those German taxpayers who enjoyed safe employment and good salaries.

more for the record: the €UR will not cease to exist. perhaps with less countries using it as currency. time will tell.

You make the point yourself, Naam... it worked very well for the Germans (or perhaps just the Germans worked very well).

The real underlying problem is that not all countries in the group will manage their finances equally well. Somehow the Southern European countries in particular seem to have lost control a bit.

But there is no doubt to my mind that the Euro will continue to exist for a long time yet... again largely because the Germans will ensure that it does.

it worked for all well IB. unfortunately it worked too well for the ClubMed who's governments and citizens suddenly enjoyed financing existing and new debt at 3 and 4% €UR interest rates instead of 12, 13, 14 and 15% for Lira, Peseta, Escudo and Drachma. add to that tax evasion, generous social benefits, "siesta" mentality combined with an unwillingness to work hard and you reach the result we are looking at today.

most disgusting is the fact that some of the culprits as well as outsiders turn around and play the game "thief blames party from which he has stolen."

Agreed, Naam, if you call 'taking advantage without contributing' working well.

My reservation about Europe as a community from the beginning has been that the larger and stronger countries would dominate, as Germany and France have done. I've never thought Britain was a very good team player; it hasn't recovered mentally from being an imperial power, and then losing its empire.

Surely anyone can 'use' the Euro.

Sorry, HB, in the interests of brevity, my post was obscure. When I said 'use', I meant 'have as its main, or official, currency '(as the dong is in Vietnam, the rial (I think) in Cambodia, and the kip in Laos, in spite of the fact that dollars, euros, and even Thai baht may be freely in use).

When I was in Cambodia the main currency used was USD. They used the rial as small change.

I was surprised to have to go back six months to find this one. Today, with the defeat of Sarkozy and the Greek Government, the whole patched-up Eurozone 'solution' has gone arse over tip. Stock markets are crashing and.... watch this space!

The only real solution is to boost economic productivity. To achieve this, I would do the following:

1. Stop state pensions for guys/girls who are currently 30-years old or younger (they have 30-40 years to get their 5hit together)

2. From 2050 onwards, restrict the national health service to A&E services only; allow the private sector to prosper and tell people to get themselves some private insurance before 2050

3. Restrict unemployment benefits to the severely disabled (those who are able to work should be told to move to find work or sweep the streets until they find something)

4. Sell half the prisons to property developers (the remaining prisons would become cramped and less enjoyable, hence more of a deterrent)

5. Introduce more fines for lower level crimes (and introduce 100% asset expropriation from serious criminals)

6. Use the savings and income earned from 1-5 to invest in education, skills-based training, R&D, infrastructure and other policies to boost productivity

The only real solution is to boost economic productivity. To achieve this, I would do the following:

1. Stop state pensions for guys/girls who are currently 30-years old or younger (they have 30-40 years to get their 5hit together)

2. From 2050 onwards, restrict the national health service to A&E services only; allow the private sector to prosper and tell people to get themselves some private insurance before 2050

3. Restrict unemployment benefits to the severely disabled (those who are able to work should be told to move to find work or sweep the streets until they find something)

4. Sell half the prisons to property developers (the remaining prisons would become cramped and less enjoyable, hence more of a deterrent)

5. Introduce more fines for lower level crimes (and introduce 100% asset expropriation from serious criminals)

6. Use the savings and income earned from 1-5 to invest in education, skills-based training, R&D, infrastructure and other policies to boost productivity

I'm forwarding this to Nigel Farage. He already has the other necessary point (stop immigration / get out of the EU except for trade). Then we might get a proper British government, instead of the posh-boy idiots who cause the current (and previous) chaos.

The only real solution is to boost economic productivity. To achieve this, I would do the following:

1. Stop state pensions for guys/girls who are currently 30-years old or younger (they have 30-40 years to get their 5hit together)

2. From 2050 onwards, restrict the national health service to A&E services only; allow the private sector to prosper and tell people to get themselves some private insurance before 2050

3. Restrict unemployment benefits to the severely disabled (those who are able to work should be told to move to find work or sweep the streets until they find something)

4. Sell half the prisons to property developers (the remaining prisons would become cramped and less enjoyable, hence more of a deterrent)

5. Introduce more fines for lower level crimes (and introduce 100% asset expropriation from serious criminals)

6. Use the savings and income earned from 1-5 to invest in education, skills-based training, R&D, infrastructure and other policies to boost productivity

I'm forwarding this to Nigel Farage. He already has the other necessary point (stop immigration / get out of the EU except for trade). Then we might get a proper British government, instead of the posh-boy idiots who cause the current (and previous) chaos.

Thanks... but I would just like to be clear that there is one "posh-boy idiot" politician who deserves nothing but respect (leaving his private life and comical appearance aside of course)... all hail Boris Johnson, the cleverest idiot alive (and a bloody funny old-boy)

I agree with most of this... but it affects Britain only. Unless the Eurozone gets its act together, Britain will suffer whatever we do in our own country. I believe Europe is our largest trading partner.

Hollande wants to go for growth; so apparently do the Greeks, though I don't see how they're going to form a government of any sort. There are rumblings against austerity in Italy too.

I was surprised to have to go back six months to find this one. Today, with the defeat of Sarkozy and the Greek Government, the whole patched-up Eurozone 'solution' has gone arse over tip. Stock markets are crashing and.... watch this space!

please define "whole patched-up Eurozone" and tell me which stock markets were "crashing" (besides the FTSE in London and the Athex in Athens).

I agree with most of this... but it affects Britain only. Unless the Eurozone gets its act together, Britain will suffer whatever we do in our own country. I believe Europe is our largest trading partner.

Hollande wants to go for growth; so apparently do the Greeks, though I don't see how they're going to form a government of any sort. There are rumblings against austerity in Italy too.

The only real solution to the problems is the same in every country... it is all about productivity.

Every Eurozone government needs to take drastic measures to clean up the liability side of public finances (as per my suggestions) and use the savings to invest in policies to boost productivity.

Any other strategy will fail to address the underlying problems and will lead to a never ending spiral of government debt, regular economic crises followed by (stealth) printing money and unabated inflation.

I was surprised to have to go back six months to find this one. Today, with the defeat of Sarkozy and the Greek Government, the whole patched-up Eurozone 'solution' has gone arse over tip. Stock markets are crashing and.... watch this space!

please define "whole patched-up Eurozone" and tell me which stock markets were "crashing" (besides the FTSE in London and the Athex in Athens).

OK, I give way on the stock markets; the FTSE crashed on election worries. By the whole patched-up Eurozone, I mean the agreement brokered by Sarkozy and Merkel six months ago, which forced austerity budgetting on the PIIGS.

People will only stand for so much austerity; Greece has already had its say, and there are anti-austerity moves in Italy. Hollande wants growth, not austerity. As we said before, if the Greek economy crumbles, others will follow.... and this latest election makes that a very real possibility again.

OK, I give way on the stock markets; the FTSE crashed on election worries. By the whole patched-up Eurozone, I mean the agreement brokered by Sarkozy and Merkel six months ago, which forced austerity budgetting on the PIIGS.

People will only stand for so much austerity; Greece has already had its say, and there are anti-austerity moves in Italy. Hollande wants growth, not austerity. As we said before, if the Greek economy crumbles, others will follow.... and this latest election makes that a very real possibility again.

actually you were right IB, but one day too early. marketmakers read your posting and acted

I'd shoot all the bankers and politicians. It probably wouldn't solve the problem (although you never know) but it would make me feel much happier.

why waste bullets?

Yes abolish the EU and its currency. Then we can all argue properly just like before without having to pretend we are all friends.

I'd shoot all the bankers and politicians. It probably wouldn't solve the problem (although you never know) but it would make me feel much happier.

I agree but............

I thought you didn't like guns in general?

PS: no this is not me.....I'm not that fat

I've just been watching Michael Portillo on the Beeb.

Very good review of the Greek and German thoughts on the subject.

He's not a person I have much time for usually, but he seems to have ytied hard to present a balanced view of the current situation.

If you can view on BBC i-player, then I recommend it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01hllyd/This_World_Michael_Portillos_Great_Euro_Crisis/

Is Euro going to drop more to thai baht over the next few months ?