Pheu Thai And Red Shirts Do Nothing To Help Their Own

[Lite Beer]

This photo needs an explanation from Phue Thai MP Wanchai #ThaiFloodEng TR @boomy_NT/via@veen_NT

[Crushdepth]

Funny how all the Thaksin haters, after 6 pages of replies, have been unable to provide proof that the aid that was labeled as coming from Thaksin was not paid for by Thaksin, but "stolen" from aid donated by tax payers. Where's the proof for your ridiculous accusations? If you don't have proof, please stop stirring up rumors and trying to divide the nation. Thailand needs to be united in this time of crisis and your ridiculous claims and attempts to divide the nation are nothing short of disgusting.

I see dozens of aid trucks passing every hour and none of them has anything written on the sides that suggest it's coming from Thaksin or any other politician. If Thaksin donated one truck full of aid, then that's a good thing.

So, again, unless you have proof that Thaksin "stole" any of the relief aid, drop it already. It's not helping. And no, posting pictures with airport workers (wearing yellow airport cargo staff uniform) unloading aid boxes and putting a label on it with Photoshop saying "UDD stealing aid" doesn't count as proof. Maybe you can fool a 3 year old with that.

You are deliberately misrepresenting what has been said. Why bother posting at all if you can't be honest.

The issue, as I'm sure you understand perfectly well, is that goods donated by the *public* have been labelled with political affiliations, giving a false indication of their origin. Nobody said 'stolen', that is just crap made up by you to misdirect the debate. Asking for "proof" in an internet forum where you aren't prepared to accept digital resources as evidence is further misdirection.

You aren't protecting your ideology by posting this kind of stuff, you are damaging it and making the movement - which has plenty of honest proponents - look BAD. When I see this sort of deliberate misdirection I can't help but wonder: Why is it that a red neck is usually found just above a red shirt?

[whybother]

This photo needs an explanation from Phue Thai MP Wanchai #ThaiFloodEng TR @boomy_NT/via@veen_NT

http://th-th.facebook.com/Wanchai.ptp

[rametindallas]

Funny how all the Thaksin haters, after 6 pages of replies, have been unable to provide proof that the aid that was labeled as coming from Thaksin was not paid for by Thaksin, but "stolen" from aid donated by tax payers. Where's the proof for your ridiculous accusations? If you don't have proof, please stop stirring up rumors and trying to divide the nation. Thailand needs to be united in this time of crisis and your ridiculous claims and attempts to divide the nation are nothing short of disgusting.

I see dozens of aid trucks passing every hour and none of them has anything written on the sides that suggest it's coming from Thaksin or any other politician. If Thaksin donated one truck full of aid, then that's a good thing.

So, again, unless you have proof that Thaksin "stole" any of the relief aid, drop it already. It's not helping. And no, posting pictures with airport workers (wearing yellow airport cargo staff uniform) unloading aid boxes and putting a label on it with Photoshop saying "UDD stealing aid" doesn't count as proof. Maybe you can fool a 3 year old with that.

Certainly, no one can fool you, you've been 'pre-fooled' by the Reds,

[hyundai10]

Not sure what Khao San Farang translated that for you, but that's not what it says on the boat.

By the way, still waiting for the proof that the aid that was packed onto the truck with the Thaksin label did indeed come from FROC. I saw it come out of the Don Muang airport terminal with tourists walking by in the background. I doubt that FROC uses the main terminal door for aid distribution. But please, prove me wrong, if you can.

The people you see on the video are not tourists, but helpers that build a chain to load donations from the Don Muang building into the truck (which is labelled with the taksin banner).

If they were tourists, as you imply, they would not load a truck. That's not what you usually do, if you come as a tourist to an airport.

They would just each grab their own bag & leave the airport.

[Scott]

One poster has been suspended. Please keep it civil.

[siampolee]

mrfarang,

By the way, still waiting for the proof that the aid that was packed onto the truck with the Thaksin label did indeed come from FROC. I saw it come out of the Don Muang airport terminal with tourists walking by in the background. I doubt that FROC uses the main terminal door for aid distribution. But please, prove me wrong, if you can.

I might be wrong, but isn't Suvarnabhumi the main airport in Thailand and in fact isn't Don Muang currently closed due to excessive water on the runways and elsewhere at Don Muang.,thus tourists would indeed be as rare as hens teeth sir ?

One is inclined to ask, " Are you taking medication you shouldn't take or are you not taking the medication you should take ? ''

Edited October 29, 2011 by metisdead
Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes.

[serenitynow]

I'd say that willingly denying people access to assistance according to their political persuasion is not exactly what one could call an act of humanity.

I'd like to see the people responsible for putting that sticker on that boat explain why they did it.

Of course we can all make guesses according to our approach to the subject but it would be interesting to hear it from the horses mouth.

While we're waiting for them to get back to us on that, maybe someone here could speculate what possible positive meaning it might have. I'm placing a bet with myself here. I'll tell you later if I win or not.

A possibly plausible reason for having a sticker that says only a certain type may board is that accountants are running the boats. And so as to be able to know exactly how many people they rescue and can easily categorise them, they are using a lot of boats and each one has a sticker saying '.......shirts only'. Meaning that they can count how many people who wear each kind of shirt they rescue.

Either the 'no top' boat or the 'hawaiian' boat are probably being provided in multiple numbers.

Or, but this might be a stretch. The boat is part of a flotilla of news boats and all reporters are part of the group - including journalists from the red media. And some nasty sarccy person has just labeled each boat with a brief description of who will get on the boat.

In that guess I think it might be the 'media-star' journos that would require all the extra boats.

Let me know what you think of these two ideas?

dam_n, lost that bet. I had geriatrickid on the nose because the odds were so short.

As for your hypotheses I don't find the first one compelling at all and the second one seems very unlikely, especially as these stickers were printed I would thinkl a flotilla of reporters might be assembled rather hastily and such designations wouldn't be made. Thanks for playing.

[nicknostitz]

No need to bring the nature of your relationship with you wife into this. I just wanted to see some Thai script that says 'this is for Red Shirts only'. I have seen Thai script on the page you refer to, but couldn't find any that said 'for Red Shirts only'. Not wanting to overlook the possibility of having missed something, I asked you to produce said script. If you had, I would agree that it is contemptible. Sorry for asking for evidence.

Maybe not asking for evidence would make be a better poster in your eyes.

Why would you ask for evidence and then completely ignore the link I posted?

Anyway, here it is:

It's the thin white sticker towards the front of the boat.

Thank you. That's what I was after. It is idiotic and clearly divisive. Thanks again.

Yes indeed, it is idiotic.

One thing though - i am not 100% sure, but the sign looks to me like one of the Red Shirt community radio station signs, and not the UDD sign. Whatever it is - this clearly goes against stated UDD policy - which is helping anybody regardless of politics.

[piete121]

While we're waiting for them to get back to us on that, maybe someone here could speculate what possible positive meaning it might have. I'm placing a bet with myself here. I'll tell you later if I win or not.

A possibly plausible reason for having a sticker that says only a certain type may board is that accountants are running the boats. And so as to be able to know exactly how many people they rescue and can easily categorise them, they are using a lot of boats and each one has a sticker saying '.......shirts only'. Meaning that they can count how many people who wear each kind of shirt they rescue.

Either the 'no top' boat or the 'hawaiian' boat are probably being provided in multiple numbers.

Or, but this might be a stretch. The boat is part of a flotilla of news boats and all reporters are part of the group - including journalists from the red media. And some nasty sarccy person has just labeled each boat with a brief description of who will get on the boat.

In that guess I think it might be the 'media-star' journos that would require all the extra boats.

Let me know what you think of these two ideas?

dam_n, lost that bet. I had geriatrickid on the nose because the odds were so short.

As for your hypotheses I don't find the first one compelling at all and the second one seems very unlikely, especially as these stickers were printed I would thinkl a flotilla of reporters might be assembled rather hastily and such designations wouldn't be made. Thanks for playing.

Don't worry, I got them both from the same place Jatuporn and Nattawut (sic) get their 'facts and figures'!

[nicknostitz]

Hi Nick, I have the same observation on the ground here in Pathum Thani as you do, although more limited as I have not gone too far from our flooded house. Everyone here is pitching in to help, good spirits, I don't see any of the kind of thing that certifiable nutcase Thanong writes about.

I am afraid your plea will fall on deaf ears here. For reasons I cannot fathom TVF is a farang yellow shirt redoubt, slightly to the right of Attila the Hun politically. I know you are busy, but when you have time I would like to hear your theories of just why that is so? I know a few Thai red shirts opponents who would be ashamed by some of the crap washing up here. A lot of it is from people who could not understand directions in Thai to their corner 7/11, but somehow they are past masters of Thai current events. Mind boggling.

Mind boggling indeed.

In order to be accepted and qualified as unbiased here, one has to hate and despise the Red Shirts.

I have a few theories...

I can remember one elderly farang in the pink shirt protests (before they changed into the multi-colored's) who was screaming repeatedly into our cameras in horrible Thai that he loves Thailand, and is Thai ("phom rak prathet Thai - phom pen khon Thai"), which was rather embarrassing (i won't put the photo here, or publish it anywhere, i do not want to further embarrass him, but it was shown on Thai TV). To be fair - there was a similar incident in 2009, where in the middle of a speach by Somchai Wongsawat during the Red Shirt protests a farang interrupted the speech by screaming the same, that he loved Thailand, and hat he was Thai. I was on the stage taking pics, and really wished i wasn't there.

Another farang in one of the multi-colored protests, the one where they went to the 11th infantry regiment, shouted at me, as soon as he saw me with my camera (also in very bad Thai) if i want to interview him. I said no, and he told me to go away (which i anyhow was, as speaking with obviously mentally unstable farang is not really my thing).

On a nastier note, i had in 2008 several arguments with one or the other farang who worked as spies for the PAD, and followed me and other foreign journalists around PAD occupied Government House, and photographed us.

Edited October 28, 2011 by nicknostitz

[hanuman1]

Why would you ask for evidence and then completely ignore the link I posted?

Anyway, here it is:

It's the thin white sticker towards the front of the boat.

Thank you. That's what I was after. It is idiotic and clearly divisive. Thanks again.

Yes indeed, it is idiotic.

One thing though - i am not 100% sure, but the sign looks to me like one of the Red Shirt community radio station signs, and not the UDD sign. Whatever it is - this clearly goes against stated UDD policy - which is helping anybody regardless of politics.

Yes, I was wondering whether or not this sticker was from the UDD or a different, smaller faction. To people who hate the red shirts of course it makes no difference. This is a problem for the red shirt movement as friction between its factions - which there undoubtedly is - will lead to observers criticizing the entire movement for the actions of one faction.

One thing I'd like to know is how much better the average Thai voter of whichever political persuasion understands the makeup of the red shirt movement than, say, the average anti-red shirt poster on TVF. After all, it's the Thais who count when determining the extent of public support for whatever political group.

In the OP articles that fuel these threads, little attention is drawn to the factional makeup of the red shirt movement and I'm just wondering if the same can be said for articles in the Thai media in general, as my knowledge of Thai isn't good enough to understand the more formal language used in these publications.

Edited October 28, 2011 by hanuman1

[Siam Simon]

cut/// Also, there are some posters whose political fervor is so great, they post here just to 'recruit' people to think like them and don't limit their political activism just to this site, but have facebook pages etc etc used to promote the same political viewpoints.

Each to their own, though, eh?

Wow! That's seriously weird. And a little bit sinister.

Btw, who are these activist posters?

[nicknostitz]

Yes, I was wondering whether or not this sticker was from the UDD or a different, smaller faction. To people who hate the red shirts of course it makes no difference. This is a problem for the red shirt movement as friction between its factions - which there undoubtedly is - will lead to observers criticizing the entire movement for the actions of one faction.

One thing I'd like to know is how much better the average Thai voter of whichever political persuasion understands the makeup of the red shirt movement than, say, the average anti-red shirt poster on TVF. After all, it's the Thais who count when determining the extent of public support for whatever political group.

In the OP articles that fuel these threads, little attention is drawn to the factional makeup of the red shirt movement and I'm just wondering if the same can be said for articles in the Thai media in general, as my knowledge of Thai isn't good enough to understand the more formal language used in these publications.

There are several Thai journalists who work for Thai newspapers, such as Thai Rath, Khao Sot and Matichon, who are very competent in this subject, and whose articles are much more differentiated than what you read here in the English language papers (I can't read Thai, but i have seen translations, and i know these journalists well). Generally saying, it really depends on which average Thai voter. People that dislike the Red Shirts would not care anyhow. PAD activists though know the make-up of the Red shirts very well.

But generally speaking, Thais knowing the factional make up of Thai society understand the factional make up of the Red Shirts (which in the end is just a reflection of Thai society) instinctively much better than the average Thaivisa poster. Also the issue of violence in the Red Shirts (and any other side), is generally much better understood under average Thais, as this is also nothing but a reflection of the very high level of violence in Thai society.

I have usually much better and easier conversations with PAD protesters about the Red Shirts than i have here on Thaivisa (most regular PAD protesters and guards know me well, and also know my views on all this as i do not hide my views). Here on Thaivisa i regularly feel as if i am in a parallel universe, and not in the Thailand i see every day.

[koosdeboer]

Why would you ask for evidence and then completely ignore the link I posted?

Anyway, here it is:

It's the thin white sticker towards the front of the boat.

Thank you. That's what I was after. It is idiotic and clearly divisive. Thanks again.

Yes indeed, it is idiotic.

One thing though - i am not 100% sure, but the sign looks to me like one of the Red Shirt community radio station signs, and not the UDD sign. Whatever it is - this clearly goes against stated UDD policy - which is helping anybody regardless of politics.

Yes, I was wondering whether or not this sticker was from the UDD or a different, smaller faction. To people who hate the red shirts of course it makes no difference. This is a problem for the red shirt movement as friction between its factions - which there undoubtedly is - will lead to observers criticizing the entire movement for the actions of one faction.

One thing I'd like to know is how much better the average Thai voter of whichever political persuasion understands the makeup of the red shirt movement than, say, the average anti-red shirt poster on TVF. After all, it's the Thais who count when determining the extent of public support for whatever political group.

In the OP articles that fuel these threads, little attention is drawn to the factional makeup of the red shirt movement and I'm just wondering if the same can be said for articles in the Thai media in general, as my knowledge of Thai isn't good enough to understand the more formal language used in these publications.

They wear the same uniform, (red shirt) so for me they are all the same. If they are different, different uniforms please. If they don't support actions of other factions they have to say in public.

I don't have any problem with most of the redshirts and I understand their wishes but I think they follow the wrong leaders.

[mca]

I have usually much better and easier conversations with PAD protesters about the Red Shirts than i have here on Thaivisa

In some cases I have much better and easier conversations with my fridge than I have here on TVF.

[nicknostitz]

[

They wear the same uniform, (red shirt) so for me they are all the same. If they are different, different uniforms please. If they don't support actions of other factions they have to say in public.

I don't have any problem with most of the redshirts and I understand their wishes but I think they follow the wrong leaders.

Actually, yes, different Red Shirt factions wear different T-shirts, have different insignia, use different slogans. There is also much inner debate under Red Shirts on the different leaders, and not all leaders are accepted by all.

[Buchholz]

Thank you. That's what I was after. It is idiotic and clearly divisive. Thanks again.

Yes indeed, it is idiotic.

One thing though - i am not 100% sure, but the sign looks to me like one of the Red Shirt community radio station signs

Yes, I was wondering whether or not this sticker was from the UDD or a different, smaller faction. To people who hate the red shirts of course it makes no difference. This is a problem for the red shirt movement as friction between its factions - which there undoubtedly is - will lead to observers criticizing the entire movement for the actions of one faction.

It would be a positive step if all of these so-called factions, or even one, let alone the known Red Shirt Leaders, or even the "Red Shirt community radio station", condemned the faction responsible for the Boats Are For Red Shirt Use Only signs with as equally strong comments as you two have.

It would be a move in the right direction if criticizing the entire movement for the actions of one faction was something that really bothered them.

.

[koosdeboer]

FROC's new rule - all trucks carry donations will bear FROC name only. A political party sign allowed as a small sticker.

Says it all.

[hammered]

Having spent a bit of time in the last few days with refugees, I find that the level of vitriol and hatred among those on here is not reflected among the refugees. It is quite a sad situation and there is lots of confusion and uncertainty that people have about their futures. Yes there is some anger but surprisingly muted and in different directions to what people may think. I heard more criticism of the media for causing panic, division and failure to report what is happening than of either Yinglick or Sukhumband although I do have to say Banharn was getting a few snide mentions as people seem to think the protection of Suphan Buri at first links to some agricultural business deals he has, which I know nothing about. On the whole though people seem to be helping each other and in reasonably good spirits considering what they have gone through.

In short though to go to the refugees and go on about Yingluck or Sukhumband or politics in general is not something I would advise anyone to actually try

[mca]

In the same vein as the "paid to post" accusations on here flung around by some. Did any evidence of thst ever turn up?

[Thaddeus]

There is a huge difference though between criticism and libel.

Yes there is, and most people, yourself included, can tell the difference.

Khun T either can't or refuses to.

[whybother]

Nick is a genuine, accredited and legally working photographer and journo in Thailand. I think even his detractors would usually admit this. He has also published several books. If you care to read anything he has written you will find it is better sourced, evidenced and more balanced than a lot of mainstream stuff.

For the record, I do not agree with everything Nick writes but it is mostly at the level of interpretation of events or motivations of players which is obviously more open to different opinions and our own biases.

Also for the record, you will find if you follow his work at NM, he has been serially attacked by certain red shirt supporters at times

+1

I haven't got around to reading any of Nick's books, but, from his posts here, I think they would give a lot of good background information on many events ... even if there might be some bias in them.

[nicknostitz]

Nick is a genuine, accredited and legally working photographer and journo in Thailand. I think even his detractors would usually admit this. He has also published several books. If you care to read anything he has written you will find it is better sourced, evidenced and more balanced than a lot of mainstream stuff.

For the record, I do not agree with everything Nick writes but it is mostly at the level of interpretation of events or motivations of players which is obviously more open to different opinions and our own biases.

Also for the record, you will find if you follow his work at NM, he has been serially attacked by certain red shirt supporters at times

+1

I haven't got around to reading any of Nick's books, but, from his posts here, I think they would give a lot of good background information on many events ... even if there might be some bias in them.

Well, nobody is free of sympathies, and i have never hidden mine.

What for me though is most important is accuracy and objectivity in factual reporting, and not to let sympathies get into the way of facts, either by misrepresentation of facts, or more a more subtle form of bias - by omission of inconvenient facts.

The original article here by Thanong contains both breaches against our ethics. Even opinion pieces are bound by facts.

[whybother]

Well, nobody is free of sympathies, and i have never hidden mine.

What for me though is most important is accuracy and objectivity in factual reporting, and not to let sympathies get into the way of facts, either by misrepresentation of facts, or more a more subtle form of bias - by omission of inconvenient facts.

The original article here by Thanong contains both breaches against our ethics. Even opinion pieces are bound by facts.

Oh, that's right. I forgot about the OP. It's hardly been mentioned since about the 20th post. I'm surprised it got that far.

[animatic]

Some call it 'Public Relations Office'.

Some call it 'Bureau Of Propaganda'.

This relationships typically invert depending on who is in government at the time.

[metisdead]

A series of off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[hammered]

Nick is a genuine, accredited and legally working photographer and journo in Thailand. I think even his detractors would usually admit this. He has also published several books. If you care to read anything he has written you will find it is better sourced, evidenced and more balanced than a lot of mainstream stuff.

For the record, I do not agree with everything Nick writes but it is mostly at the level of interpretation of events or motivations of players which is obviously more open to different opinions and our own biases.

Also for the record, you will find if you follow his work at NM, he has been serially attacked by certain red shirt supporters at times

+1

I haven't got around to reading any of Nick's books, but, from his posts here, I think they would give a lot of good background information on many events ... even if there might be some bias in them.

Well, nobody is free of sympathies, and i have never hidden mine.

What for me though is most important is accuracy and objectivity in factual reporting, and not to let sympathies get into the way of facts, either by misrepresentation of facts, or more a more subtle form of bias - by omission of inconvenient facts.

The original article here by Thanong contains both breaches against our ethics. Even opinion pieces are bound by facts.

Even in his non-Thai poltics stuff Thanong seems to be way way out there.

[jackdawson]

Personally, I believe you earlier posters may have the translation a little wrong.

I believe it says:

Yellow and blue shirts pay double.

[rogerdee123]

Nick is a genuine, accredited and legally working photographer and journo in Thailand. I think even his detractors would usually admit this. He has also published several books. If you care to read anything he has written you will find it is better sourced, evidenced and more balanced than a lot of mainstream stuff.

For the record, I do not agree with everything Nick writes but it is mostly at the level of interpretation of events or motivations of players which is obviously more open to different opinions and our own biases.

Also for the record, you will find if you follow his work at NM, he has been serially attacked by certain red shirt supporters at times

+1

I haven't got around to reading any of Nick's books, but, from his posts here, I think they would give a lot of good background information on many events ... even if there might be some bias in them.

I know a few legally working journalists (and photographers) in THailand. One of them quoted me in a supposedly "off the record" interview a couple of years ago. These guys are human and have their bias' and make mistakes like the rest of us.

There's only a couple of them I've known for 20+ years that I really trust.