IAEA board adopts resolution voicing 'increasing concern' about Iran's nuclear work

[Pedzie]

Do you have contacts within the Iranian military services that tell you what will or will not happen in their camp?

chukd

Agreed +1

Pedzie

You write some interesting arguments but you don't really have to have contacts in the Chinese military to know if they are expanding due to fear of the US or not. The same could then be said of you in order to support your stance/opinion. Military analysts all over the world have opinions on this and write up those opinions on the net amongst other places. The problem is of course they are a bit like economists, get 10 military analysts and you will get 10 different opinions.

Yeah I understand that Jim, I think China is expanding simply due to the US, who else is a threat to them in their territorial/military quests? No-one that I can think of.

Except perhaps Japan and South Korea.

Japan and South Korea pose no threat at all to China, major Chinese military expansion is to counter US influence in the region, also Russia and China are co-operating with each other on military issues, doing joint ventures etc. Why? To counter the US. Also there is a lot of interest in central Asia's natural resources, Russia, China, US are all involved in the region.

[GentlemanJim]

Since when do the voters in the US have a say on when and whom the US goes to war with ? But anyway I sincerely hope you are right in that no-one has the stomach for a war.

The voters are always the determining factor. If it isn't popular with the voters, the politicians won't chance it. Prior to the Iraq and Afghan wars, public opinion was highly in favor. Getting in is much easier than getting in. Once involved in the war, one big event can sway public opinion but by that time it is too late as forces have already been committed. However smaller operations like in Somolia 20 years ago or Lebanon 30 years ago can be ended quickly when the voters (public opinion) want out.

Pedzie is right koheesti.

The only reason the 'voters' were onside prior to Iraq and Afghanistan is that they had been subject to such utter bulls**t lies and terrorized by a media frenzy swamping them with the administrations every message that most normal US citizens thought there was no other option but war at the time. (everyone seems to forget the mass population panic and fear caused by the 'anthrax' in letters. What complete bulls**t that was.) In short the voters had no say in the matter and they were made to be convinced that the governments actions were legitimate and necessary. You raise a sound point about the difficulty of getting out of the war though. The US population are the most magnificent supporters of a nations armed forces in the world. No other nation on the planet can touch them in this respect. Things have moved on a lot since Vietnam and these days, once US soldiers start dying, woe betide the administration that backs out of a war and makes the deaths of these young heroes seem a waste.

A war in Iran is already being justified in the US to the 'population', by yet again more lies and exaggerations, just to prepare the way in case things kick off.

[koheesti]

...also Russia and China are co-operating with each other on military issues, doing joint ventures etc. Why? To counter the US.

"etc" meaning Russia and China's support of Iran and North Korea. Being basically dictatorships, the Russians don't care if the aid they give Iran makes it way to Chechnya and is used against Moscow, or the Chinese don't care that they border North Korea so if nukes starts flying about they are in for a little fallout. For two countries famous for their chess-like long-term foreign policy, they are willing to make risky decisions in the short term just to counter the US.

BTW - The Philippines and Vietnam want closer ties with the USA (not the other way around) to counter China's claims to the oil in the South China Sea.

[koheesti]

When it comes to full scale invasions like Iraq and Afgan then yes the voters need to accept such action.

Yes, wars involving boots on the ground is taken more seriously by the general publci. "video game wars" using smart bombs, tomahawks, drones, etc most people at home don't get too worked up over.

[Pedzie]

When it comes to full scale invasions like Iraq and Afgan then yes the voters need to accept such action.

Yes, wars involving boots on the ground is taken more seriously by the general publci. "video game wars" using smart bombs, tomahawks, drones, etc most people at home don't get too worked up over.

Any future war in the middle east involving Iran would be a ' video game war' The Muslim world would be enraged if the US put boots on the ground on yet another Muslim country! War is war and I'm sure the US public would get worked up even if it was 'just a video game war' .

[Pedzie]

...also Russia and China are co-operating with each other on military issues, doing joint ventures etc. Why? To counter the US.

"etc" meaning Russia and China's support of Iran and North Korea. Being basically dictatorships, the Russians don't care if the aid they give Iran makes it way to Chechnya and is used against Moscow, or the Chinese don't care that they border North Korea so if nukes starts flying about they are in for a little fallout. For two countries famous for their chess-like long-term foreign policy, they are willing to make risky decisions in the short term just to counter the US.

BTW - The Philippines and Vietnam want closer ties with the USA (not the other way around) to counter China's claims to the oil in the South China Sea.

Russia-China have much in common, both countries are being encircled by NATO/US.

I'm sure Moscow would be very concerned if weapons it supplied to Iran ended up being used to attack Russia!! Anyway I doubt very much this is the case, Iranian weapons are being used fighting NATO forces in Afganistan!

[Ulysses G.]

A war in Iran is already being justified in the US to the 'population

A bunch of Islamic lunatics - who constantly threaten other countries - developing nuclear weapons is a pretty good "justification".

[GentlemanJim]

A war in Iran is already being justified in the US to the 'population

A bunch of Islamic lunatics - who constantly threaten other countries - developing nuclear weapons is a pretty good "justification".

I rest my case!

Can you explain or link to where they have threatened 'our countries'?

Edited December 9, 2011 by GentlemanJim

[Scott]

I believe the poster said "other" countries, but probably meant 'another country'. But no link is necessary, since it is off-topic and further off-topic discussions will be deleted.

[Orac]

A war in Iran is already being justified in the US to the 'population

A bunch of Islamic lunatics - who constantly threaten other countries - developing nuclear weapons is a pretty good "justification".

The problem here is the threat works both ways.

An analogy would be the Cuban missile crisis where the USA saw the positioning of soviet missiles in Cuba as a threat and took the world to the brink of nuclear war - without their huge nuclear arsenal they would have been vunerable. In the current situation Iran see themselves in a far worse position than the US was then with the equivalent of nuclear weapons in place in Cuba and also Canada and Mexico already invaded and puppet regimes in place.

As much as I disagree with any country having nuclear weapons, the genie is already out of the bottle and it is only a matter of time before Iran and many other countries get their hands on them. The issue of nuclear proliferation should have been dealt with years ago with firm action against ANY country that tried to get their hands on them and didn't submit to inspections, unfortunately the opportunity has been missed and we now need to get used to the idea that many countries will have access to their own nuclear buttons and delivery systems.

[Steely Dan]

A war in Iran is already being justified in the US to the 'population

A bunch of Islamic lunatics - who constantly threaten other countries - developing nuclear weapons is a pretty good "justification".

I rest my case!

Can you explain or link to where they have threatened 'our countries'?

They have been caught repeatedly arming terrorists and smuggling arms into Afghanistan directly threatening our interests through NATO. This is one of many examples and frankly I'm amazed you can believe Iran has done nothing to threaten the west. I therefore conclude those who refuse to be convinced never will be, so imho let the regime change commence a.s.a.p.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Steely Dan

[GentlemanJim]

A war in Iran is already being justified in the US to the 'population

A bunch of Islamic lunatics - who constantly threaten other countries - developing nuclear weapons is a pretty good "justification".

I rest my case!

Can you explain or link to where they have threatened 'our countries'?

They have been caught repeatedly arming terrorists and smuggling arms into Afghanistan directly threatening our interests through NATO. This is one of many examples and frankly I'm amazed you can believe Iran has done nothing to threaten the west. I therefore conclude those who refuse to be convinced never will be, so imho let the regime change commence a.s.a.p.

You seem unable to differentiate between political willy waving and threats!

What terrorist organizations are they repeatedly arming? Will that be similar to the terrorists that are repeatedly armed by the CIA. The US spent 10 years smuggling arms into Afghanistan, and the sad irony is that it is likely that a lot more US troops have been killed in Afghanistan by US supplied arms and munitions than Iranian ones.

Supplying arms is a very dirty business and no nation involved with it has any kind of moral compass and as the US is the worlds number 1 provider of arms and munitions I will let you draw your own conclusions, how they have the cheek to jail the Russian arms dealer is quite breathtaking, he was obviously stealing valuable opportunities for the US dealers.

I do not apologize for asking for information to convince me of the 'guilt' of Iran in this area. It seems to me that some people are only to willing to sanction a war (you quaintly say Regime change, how Bushish!) that would result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians and also military personnel from the US and whatever coilition would be stupid enough to join. I therefore conclude that those who place such a low value on human life never will be convinced of the need for due dilligence before starting a mass slaughter. It is clear that all the deaths in WW1 and WW2 of our forefathers have taught some of todays generation absolutely nothing.in terms of the futility of war. If you knew your history you would also realise that the US have already been involved in "regime change" in Iran and that is why the whole area is in this mess in the first place, now you want more Regime change!!! Don't you think the US have already meddled enough?

The only thing that will work will be dialogue, lots of it.

[Steely Dan]

You seem unable to differentiate between political willy waving and threats!

What terrorist organizations are they repeatedly arming?

Stop right there..

http://www.cfr.org/iran/state-sponsors-iran/p9362

And they don't even make any secret of it themselves, but still you don't believe them.

[koheesti]

What terrorist organizations are they repeatedly arming? Will that be similar to the terrorists that are repeatedly armed by the CIA. The US spent 10 years smuggling arms into Afghanistan, and the sad irony is that it is likely that a lot more US troops have been killed in Afghanistan by US supplied arms and munitions than Iranian ones.

US troops in Afghanistan are being routinely killed by 25 yr old stinger missiles?

[GentlemanJim]

You seem unable to differentiate between political willy waving and threats!

What terrorist organizations are they repeatedly arming?

Stop right there..

http://www.cfr.org/i...sors-iran/p9362

And they don't even make any secret of it themselves, but still you don't believe them.

My how you seem quick to come out with the ROFL emoticon.

You provide a link that is regurgitating US government documents which says absolutely nothing new. As I said earlier they are not behaving in anyway different to the CIA. Mmmm lets see the US get in and out of bed with who they choose, one day a friend the next day an enemy, lets not forget the Iran Contra Affair. As said earlier, nations involved in arms sales have no moral compass. Angelina Jolie is on your CFR, hey we are all safe Lara Croft is involved.

Give us a break.

The issue is do Iran have nukes, the answer is no.

Are Iran building Nukes, the answer is no.

Has Iran made a strategic decision to build Nukes, the answer is no.

Should we go to War over more made up bullsh*t, the answer is no.

The issue is if the current US administration feel that on the run up to an election a war would galvanize another wise disheartened electorate and conceal all the issues of US debt and medicare and unemployment woes. If the US decides on action, in 12-24 months the nation will be beyond bankrupt.

The US provided much more armament than stinger missiles koheesti. Stingers were used for firing at aircraft

[Jingthing]

Has Iran made a strategic decision to build Nukes, the answer is no.

Enjoy your illusion. Rational people don't believe that. They clearly want to build them. However, they might be stopped short of building them if the price is high enough. That hopefully doesn't have to mean war, but yes, it might. Edited December 9, 2011 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

You seem unable to differentiate between political willy waving and threats!

What terrorist organizations are they repeatedly arming?

Stop right there..

http://www.cfr.org/i...sors-iran/p9362

And they don't even make any secret of it themselves, but still you don't believe them.

My how you seem quick to come out with the ROFL emoticon.

You provide a link that is regurgitating US government documents which says absolutely nothing new. As I said earlier they are not behaving in anyway different to the CIA. Mmmm lets see the US get in and out of bed with who they choose, one day a friend the next day an enemy, lets not forget the Iran Contra Affair. As said earlier, nations involved in arms sales have no moral compass. Angelina Jolie is on your CFR, hey we are all safe Lara Croft is involved.

Give us a break.

The issue is do Iran have nukes, the answer is no.

Are Iran building Nukes, the answer is no.

Has Iran made a strategic decision to build Nukes, the answer is no.

Should we go to War over more made up bullsh*t, the answer is no.

The issue is if the current US administration feel that on the run up to an election a war would galvanize another wise disheartened electorate and conceal all the issues of US debt and medicare and unemployment woes. If the US decides on action, in 12-24 months the nation will be beyond bankrupt.

The US provided much more armament than stinger missiles koheesti. Stingers were used for firing at aircraft

I see, that's why they refuse to let the IAEA inspectors in in spite of facing severe sanctions. Furthermore they have an abundance of oil, which is actually cheaper than nuclear power. In other words pull the other one it's got bells on.

[GentlemanJim]

Has Iran made a strategic decision to build Nukes, the answer is no.

Enjoy your illusion. Rational people don't believe that. They clearly want to build them. However, they might be stopped short of building them if the price is high enough. That hopefully doesn't have to mean war, but yes, it might.

So irrational people must have written the latest report by the IAEA.

Why do they clearly want to build them? I think you are a member of the IAEA, the International Armchair Expert Association.

Steely

Oil generates revcenue. oil runs out. The people consuming all the oil from everyone else yet doing little to tap in to their own reserves are the USA. When the world runs out of oil, the US will be left with its own vast deposits and will be very picky who it lets have any. For a country to develop an energy resource such as nuclear energy to prolong its supply of fossil fuels is very wise. Now you can warmonger all you like but China has already publicly stated it will protect Iran, so warmonger all you wish, the next game will be in a whole different league to Iraq and will be an excellent business opportunity for companies who make body bags.

[MrMuddle]

You seem unable to differentiate between political willy waving and threats!

What terrorist organizations are they repeatedly arming?

Stop right there..

http://www.cfr.org/i...sors-iran/p9362

And they don't even make any secret of it themselves, but still you don't believe them.

My how you seem quick to come out with the ROFL emoticon.

You provide a link that is regurgitating US government documents which says absolutely nothing new. As I said earlier they are not behaving in anyway different to the CIA. Mmmm lets see the US get in and out of bed with who they choose, one day a friend the next day an enemy, lets not forget the Iran Contra Affair. As said earlier, nations involved in arms sales have no moral compass. Angelina Jolie is on your CFR, hey we are all safe Lara Croft is involved.

Give us a break.

The issue is do Iran have nukes, the answer is no.

Are Iran building Nukes, the answer is no.

Has Iran made a strategic decision to build Nukes, the answer is no.

Should we go to War over more made up bullsh*t, the answer is no.

The issue is if the current US administration feel that on the run up to an election a war would galvanize another wise disheartened electorate and conceal all the issues of US debt and medicare and unemployment woes. If the US decides on action, in 12-24 months the nation will be beyond bankrupt.

The US provided much more armament than stinger missiles koheesti. Stingers were used for firing at aircraft

I see, that's why they refuse to let the IAEA inspectors in in spite of facing severe sanctions. Furthermore they have an abundance of oil, which is actually cheaper than nuclear power. In other words pull the other one it's got bells on.

Iran is no different to Israel in that context, how many times have IAEA inspectors been allowed to assess Israels nuclear arsenal ?

It is entirely possible that Iran is preparing for the future, when oil becomes scarce, in which case nuclear power is one of several options they could use. While I don't believe that Iran is building nuclear weapons, (anything the American controlled IAEA must be taken with a large pinch of salt), it may not be a bad thing if Iran did have such weapons, it would certainly balance out the power in the middle east, and may force Israel to reign in some of it's heinous acts of repression of the Palestinian people.

As for regime change, the reason Iran is controlled by Islamic fundamentalists, is because the US-installed Shah of Iran, was a despot to his own people, and the US conveniently looked the other way, until it was too late.

[Ulysses G.]

It is entirely possible that Iran is preparing for the future, when oil becomes scarce

No. they are trying to develop an offensive nuclear weapon and anyone who is honest will admit it.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Steely Dan]

Iran is no different to Israel in that context, how many times have IAEA inspectors been allowed to assess Israels nuclear arsenal ?

It is entirely possible that Iran is preparing for the future, when oil becomes scarce, in which case nuclear power is one of several options they could use. While I don't believe that Iran is building nuclear weapons, (anything the American controlled IAEA must be taken with a large pinch of salt), it may not be a bad thing if Iran did have such weapons, it would certainly balance out the power in the middle east, and may force Israel to reign in some of it's heinous acts of repression of the Palestinian people.

As for regime change, the reason Iran is controlled by Islamic fundamentalists, is because the US-installed Shah of Iran, was a despot to his own people, and the US conveniently looked the other way, until it was too late.

Surely with the insanity that constantly vents from the mouths of it's leaders wind power would be a better option for Iran. As for repression I strongly suspect that it is far worse in Iran than Israel but this is off topic, more so so called Israeli 'repression'. As for the future, if you are a religious nut job waiting for your messiah forward planning for oil running out is hardly a credible rationale.

[Jingthing]

Israel's ("secret") nuclear program is a fact of life. Once a country has them, they never give them up. Israel in any case has proved a responsible power with nukes (in the sense of not using them offensively, and no rational country is really worried about them using them offensively, not in the sense of inspection). Ideally, no country would have nukes, but welcome to realpolitik. Anyway, there is still time and a chance to stop Iran from becoming a nuclear power. Either you're for stopping them or you're not. I want to see them stopped. That is not the same thing as wanting a war. The question of whether it is worth a war to stop them if that is the only way is beyond my bandwidth.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Jingthing

[GentlemanJim]

It is entirely possible that Iran is preparing for the future, when oil becomes scarce

No. they are trying to develop an offensive nuclear weapon and anyone who is honest will admit it.

Well I am honest, and I can't admit it.

They have bought nuclear technology from Russia, China and North Korea, if they wanted some warheads they would just bloody buy them. Why build facilities that will take decades to research and produce weapons that you know can be taken out by Israel or the US, it doesn't make any sense. Even if they had them they could fire 100 at Israel all at the same time and none would get through the anti missile/air defence system. They want Nuclear energy.

Steely

Surely with the insanity that constantly vents from the mouths of it's leaders

What examples have you got. Quote some of the examples of insanity venting from their mouths that is troubling you.

[Steely Dan]

Steely

Surely with the insanity that constantly vents from the mouths of it's leaders

What examples have you got. Quote some of the examples of insanity venting from their mouths that is troubling you.

I can only think you are playing the straight man feeding lines to the funny guy.

http://gemsofislamism.tripod.com/khomeini_works.html

But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world ... Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless.

Witless indeed.

[Exsexyman]

It is entirely possible that Iran is preparing for the future, when oil becomes scarce

No. they are trying to develop an offensive nuclear weapon and anyone who is honest will admit it.

So now they are trying to develop an OFFENSIVE nuclear weapon? As opposed to Israel's, America's etc which i assume are cuddly nuclear weapons which release flowers when they are detonated! The IAEA,(Which has been allowed in to Iran Steely Dan) say there is no evidence of Iran developing nuclear weapons. The fact of the matter is that Iran is on America's list of countries they want to attack and facilitate a regime change. Iran's non existent nuclear weapons program is just an excuse. Iran owes no debt to the west and does not have a western central bank. Neither did Libya or Iraq, but they do now. Check out American 5 star general Wesley Clark on youtube giving a lecture in California in 2007, and all will become clear.

[GentlemanJim]

Steely

Surely with the insanity that constantly vents from the mouths of it's leaders

What examples have you got. Quote some of the examples of insanity venting from their mouths that is troubling you.

I can only think you are playing the straight man feeding lines to the funny guy.

http://gemsofislamis...eini_works.html

But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world ... Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless.

Witless indeed.

Sorry are you personally attacking me Steely??

You are linking a site as credible as any 9/11 conspiracy site. Furthermore you are quoting a guy that died in 1989 are you saying these words from a man who died 20 years ago are the "the insanity that constantly vents from the mouths of it's leaders", these words from a 20 year since deadman are what convince you that Iran are building Nukes? Are you serious??

Try quoting some examples from mainstream media, say in the last 5-10 years, 5 years even. Quote us what words are causing you to blow the war trumpet steely.

By the way the guy you link to is the one that had to lead the revolution to get rid of the despot leader that the US put in place in Iran during their last 'regime change'. Is Iran a self grown home grown problem, you betcha!

[Ulysses G.]

It is entirely possible that Iran is preparing for the future, when oil becomes scarce

No. they are trying to develop an offensive nuclear weapon and anyone who is honest will admit it.

So now they are trying to develop an OFFENSIVE nuclear weapon?

Yep, exactly right and after all the threats they have made about destroying other countries, the world takes then seriously.

[GentlemanJim]

It is entirely possible that Iran is preparing for the future, when oil becomes scarce

No. they are trying to develop an offensive nuclear weapon and anyone who is honest will admit it.

So now they are trying to develop an OFFENSIVE nuclear weapon?

Yep, exactly right and after all the threats they have made about destroying other countries, the world takes then seriously.

Ok Ulysees, you have walked straight in to it before Steely got there. Please quote which countries Iran has said it will destroy, quote us some threats about destroying other countries , i'll give you a clue (before you embarrass yourself), make sure you google ffor the correct translation of the Persian that was spoken. You will even find some translations by American academics in US universities, written up in leading US newspapers.. go ahead, and as Clint Eastwood said, 'make my day'.

To even help shorten your reply, you can cut and paste the following text which I have taken the time to prepare for you

"Well, i'll be, sorry lads, there isn't any, <deleted> have we been told by the merican and Israeli governments and medja for the last decade"?

Happy googling

Edited December 9, 2011 by GentlemanJim

[Steely Dan]

Sorry are you personally attacking me Steely??

You are linking a site as credible as any 9/11 conspiracy site. Furthermore you are quoting a guy that died in 1989 are you saying these words from a man who died 20 years ago are the "the insanity that constantly vents from the mouths of it's leaders", these words from a 20 year since deadman are what convince you that Iran are building Nukes? Are you serious??

Try quoting some examples from mainstream media, say in the last 5-10 years, 5 years even. Quote us what words are causing you to blow the war trumpet steely.

By the way the guy you link to is the one that had to lead the revolution to get rid of the despot leader that the US put in place in Iran during their last 'regime change'. Is Iran a self grown home grown problem, you betcha!

Sorry to let reality intrude but the theocratic operations manual has not changed since the 7th century, so presuming 1989 makes statements based on this doctrine obselete is not credible, and lets face it we have hardly experienced a post-Khomeinei spring have we? Perhaps of course he mis-interpreted it, but with the literal word of a deity there is not much room for nuance.

[GentlemanJim]

Sorry are you personally attacking me Steely??

You are linking a site as credible as any 9/11 conspiracy site. Furthermore you are quoting a guy that died in 1989 are you saying these words from a man who died 20 years ago are the "the insanity that constantly vents from the mouths of it's leaders", these words from a 20 year since deadman are what convince you that Iran are building Nukes? Are you serious??

Try quoting some examples from mainstream media, say in the last 5-10 years, 5 years even. Quote us what words are causing you to blow the war trumpet steely.

By the way the guy you link to is the one that had to lead the revolution to get rid of the despot leader that the US put in place in Iran during their last 'regime change'. Is Iran a self grown home grown problem, you betcha!

Sorry to let reality intrude but the theocratic operations manual has not changed since the 7th century, so presuming 1989 makes statements based on this doctrine obselete is not credible, and lets face it we have hardly experienced a post-Khomeinei spring have we? Perhaps of course he mis-interpreted it, but with the literal word of a deity there is not much room for nuance.

oh so thats it! Well I am sorry to give you the reality check. Why not just quote the texts from the 7th century and say 'see, Iran is definitely building a Nuke, look they said so in the 7th Century', if the theocratic operations manual hasn't changed. I assume from your pearl of wisdom that Indonesia, Malaysia, and 1/4 of the worlds population are all up for building nukes in every muslim country then. are there ANY intelligent arguments out there? Is that what you are saying is the "insanity that constantly vents from the mouths of it's leaders" that justifies WW3?

I offer you the chance again Steely

Try quoting some examples from mainstream media, say in the last 5-10 years, 5 years even. Quote us what words are causing you to blow the war trumpet steely.

Come on just a few, I guess even one will do.

Edited December 9, 2011 by GentlemanJim