Thai Ex-PM Abhisit Grilled Over Deadly Rally Crackdown

[animatic]

If people recall the situation correctly, Abhisit refrained from using force as long as he could. He refrained for so long that the military was on the verge of taking matters into their own hands.

The soldiers were very passive and were the one's being attacked by the red shirts, they just stood there taking a beating, getting homemade bombs thrown at them and getting injured.

The reds threw the first punch and kept throwing and kept throwing, while the soldiers just stood still... until eventually there was no way the military was going to allow their men to get harmed any longer.

The men in black are indeed a real group, not made up and not a figment of imagination. Where i use to work by Pratunam there is a restaurant i use to go to for lunch every other day. A couple of times there were indeed a few people sitting there with black shirts and combat fatigues wearing berets, before the rallies they were never there before.

The reds are the scum of thailand all things bad in Thailand are a result of these type of people....sorry to say though that the majority are poverty stricken with no education, easily manipulated and willing to do almost anything to get ahead - except put down the whiskey and pride...because when you are poor that's all you have left, your pride...and that's what all this is about, pride no matter if its red or yellow.

I'd like to take issue with your first sentence. The above is your recollection of events I take it, your opinion. You're entitled to it by all means but please do not project your opinion on what other people should think.

It is an opinion based on sound observations of what happened then.

Sound to you maybe.

Sound to most.

[JohnAllan]

Naturally, Human Rights Watch can present concrete evidence to support its assertion?

[PaulBax]

Hundreds of PAD supporters, some wearing masks and armed with metal rods and baseball bats

Thanks for highlighting the huge difference between wearing masks and having rods with firing grenade launchers and machine guns.

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You obviously did not go and the PAD in action around parliament! I did and saw many armed (with guns and automatic weapons as well as the usual baseball bats etc) wandering around.

Let us get this straight PAD were backed by the army and others and were armed; that is 100% true. unarmed people do not blow themselves up!

As I continually say the majority of you have no clue about what really goes on in this country.:jap:

[Buchholz]

Hundreds of PAD supporters, some wearing masks and armed with metal rods and baseball bats

Thanks for highlighting the huge difference between wearing masks and having rods with firing grenade launchers and machine guns.

You obviously did not go and the PAD in action around parliament! I did and saw many armed (with guns and automatic weapons as well as the usual baseball bats etc) wandering around.

Would you happen to know of any corroboration on that sole observation of yours that PAD had many automatic weapons at Parliament?

To complete the comparison, did you ever observe PAD with grenade launchers at any time?

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Edited December 11, 2011 by Buchholz

[ajarnmark]

Why did he lie about using live ammunition?

When did he not lie? What else do you expect from him? Thailand's worst time in terms of economy was whenever democrats were in power. Dont believe in me, look at the stats and history... :jap:

[phiphidon]

Would you happen to know of any corroboration on that sole observation of yours that PAD had many automatic weapons at Parliament?

To complete the comparison, did you ever observe PAD with grenade launchers at any time?

.

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Not wishing to get into an off topic argument but really you leave me with no choice.

You and others have asserted in the past that the red shirts as a whole were not peaceful demonstrators as there were armed people (identities to be determined) around them and by extension it was OK for those red shirt demonstrators (armed or not) to be shot and killed by the security forces (in this case the army).

The Yellow shirts also had armed people (who actually were yellow shirts) around them so by yours and other peoples logic were also not peaceful demonstrators. As far as I am aware they were not shot and killed by the army. One woman was shot in the chest by a teargas canister and died. One man was blown up in his own car whilst transporting explosives. Two killed, one by the security forces (in this case the police).

Tell me why so many red shirts were killed compared to the yellow shirts using your strict logic i.e peaceful until having armed people around you and then you are considered OK to shoot dead?

[Buchholz]

You obviously did not go and the PAD in action around parliament! I did and saw many armed (with guns and automatic weapons as well as the usual baseball bats etc) wandering around.

Would you happen to know of any corroboration on that sole observation of yours that PAD had many automatic weapons at Parliament?

To complete the comparison, did you ever observe PAD with grenade launchers at any time?

Would you happen to know of any corroboration on that sole observation of yours that PAD had many automatic weapons at Parliament?

To complete the comparison, did you ever observe PAD with grenade launchers at any time?

Not wishing to get into an off topic argument but really you leave me with no choice.

You and others have asserted in the past that the red shirts as a whole were not peaceful demonstrators as there were armed people (identities to be determined) around them and by extension it was OK for those red shirt demonstrators (armed or not) to be shot and killed by the security forces (in this case the army).

The Yellow shirts also had armed people (who actually were yellow shirts) around them so by yours and other peoples logic were also not peaceful demonstrators. As far as I am aware they were not shot and killed by the army. One woman was shot in the chest by a teargas canister and died. One man was blown up in his own car whilst transporting explosives. Two killed, one by the security forces (in this case the police).

Tell me why so many red shirts were killed compared to the yellow shirts using your strict logic i.e peaceful until having armed people around you and then you are considered OK to shoot dead?

So then, that's a no on corroborating the sole observation by PaulBax who alleges he saw many automatic weapons by PAD at Parliament?

And a no on observing PAD with grenade launchers, as well?

.

[OzMick]

Would you happen to know of any corroboration on that sole observation of yours that PAD had many automatic weapons at Parliament?

To complete the comparison, did you ever observe PAD with grenade launchers at any time?

.

.

Not wishing to get into an off topic argument but really you leave me with no choice.

You and others have asserted in the past that the red shirts as a whole were not peaceful demonstrators as there were armed people (identities to be determined) around them and by extension it was OK for those red shirt demonstrators (armed or not) to be shot and killed by the security forces (in this case the army).

The Yellow shirts also had armed people (who actually were yellow shirts) around them so by yours and other peoples logic were also not peaceful demonstrators. As far as I am aware they were not shot and killed by the army. One woman was shot in the chest by a teargas canister and died. One man was blown up in his own car whilst transporting explosives. Two killed, one by the security forces (in this case the police).

Tell me why so many red shirts were killed compared to the yellow shirts using your strict logic i.e peaceful until having armed people around you and then you are considered OK to shoot dead?

The answer is quite simple - the yellow shirts never attacked the government forces. That leaves them as peaceful protesters. OTOH, when an attack which killed the military commander is planned and carried out, and soldiers armed with riot shields and batons are shot, it looks much more like an armed insurrection.

[Siam Simon]

Would you happen to know of any corroboration on that sole observation of yours that PAD had many automatic weapons at Parliament?

To complete the comparison, did you ever observe PAD with grenade launchers at any time?

.

.

Not wishing to get into an off topic argument but really you leave me with no choice.

You and others have asserted in the past that the red shirts as a whole were not peaceful demonstrators as there were armed people (identities to be determined) around them and by extension it was OK for those red shirt demonstrators (armed or not) to be shot and killed by the security forces (in this case the army).

The Yellow shirts also had armed people (who actually were yellow shirts) around them so by yours and other peoples logic were also not peaceful demonstrators. As far as I am aware they were not shot and killed by the army. One woman was shot in the chest by a teargas canister and died. One man was blown up in his own car whilst transporting explosives. Two killed, one by the security forces (in this case the police).

Tell me why so many red shirts were killed compared to the yellow shirts using your strict logic i.e peaceful until having armed people around you and then you are considered OK to shoot dead?

The answer is quite simple - the yellow shirts never attacked the government forces. That leaves them as peaceful protesters. OTOH, when an attack which killed the military commander is planned and carried out, and soldiers armed with riot shields and batons are shot, it looks much more like an armed insurrection.

Except that the answer is a blatant lie: Yellow shirts attacked the police all day long at the big demo outside parliament.

[473geo]

So then, that's a no on corroborating the sole observation by PaulBax who alleges he saw many automatic weapons by PAD at Parliament?

I seem to recall Nick Nostitz (Spelling) remarking a similar observation in a previous thread, so would that be two people who were there.........being doubted by one person who was not?

[Buchholz]

So then, that's a no on corroborating the sole observation by PaulBax who alleges he saw many automatic weapons by PAD at Parliament?

I seem to recall Nick Nostitz (Spelling) remarking a similar observation in a previous thread, so would that be two people who were there.........being doubted by one person who was not?

I'll await your quote of his statements before accepting that two out of thousands in attendance had a similar observation.

.

[473geo]

So then, that's a no on corroborating the sole observation by PaulBax who alleges he saw many automatic weapons by PAD at Parliament?

I seem to recall Nick Nostitz (Spelling) remarking a similar observation in a previous thread, so would that be two people who were there.........being doubted by one person who was not?

I'll await your quote of his statements before accepting that two out of thousands in attendance had a similar observation.

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You'll wait a long time I trust my memory......even if you choose not to

[Siam Simon]

I'll await your quote of his statements before accepting that two out of thousands in attendance had a similar observation.

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You'll wait a long time I trust my memory......even if you choose not to

And he keeps telling us how easy it is to find posts (sometimes from several years ago) by using the forum search facility. Selective ignorance and all that.

[Buchholz]

I'll await your quote of his statements before accepting that two out of thousands in attendance had a similar observation.

You'll wait a long time I trust my memory......even if you choose not to

And he keeps telling us how easy it is to find posts (sometimes from several years ago) by using the forum search facility. Selective ignorance and all that.

The selective ignorance is by the person making the claim.

It is easy, but if 473geo chooses not to bother and instead sticks to "seem to recall" as good enough, that's up to him.

Which leaves us then with one solitary uncorroborated claim at an event attended by thousands and not reported by any of them.

Suffice to say, I have my doubts as to the veracity of the unvalidated claim.

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Edited December 11, 2011 by Buchholz

[TAWP]

So then, that's a no on corroborating the sole observation by PaulBax who alleges he saw many automatic weapons by PAD at Parliament?

I seem to recall Nick Nostitz (Spelling) remarking a similar observation in a previous thread, so would that be two people who were there.........being doubted by one person who was not?

I wouldn't count on him corroborating that statement in blanco even if I wouldn't put much credit to his observations.

[TAWP]

Why did he lie about using live ammunition?

When did he not lie? What else do you expect from him? Thailand's worst time in terms of economy was whenever democrats were in power. Dont believe in me, look at the stats and history... :jap:

I can thereby presume you neither teach history nor economics here.

[Siam Simon]

I'll await your quote of his statements before accepting that two out of thousands in attendance had a similar observation.

You'll wait a long time I trust my memory......even if you choose not to

And he keeps telling us how easy it is to find posts (sometimes from several years ago) by using the forum search facility. Selective ignorance and all that.

The selective ignorance is by the person making the claim.

It is easy, but if 473geo chooses not to bother and instead sticks to "seem to recall" as good enough, that's up to him.

Which leaves us then with one solitary uncorroborated claim at an event attended by thousands and not reported by any of them.

Suffice to say, I have my doubts as to the veracity of the unvalidated claim.

.

If you wanted to find the personal witness evidence that Nick Nostitz presented to this forum, you would find it in seconds. But you don't, because it doesn't suit your agenda. So we get your default of endless, disingenuous prevarication.

[TAWP]

Why don't you find it yourself then? Why is it always everyone else's job to find quotes? The one that brought it up is the one that should lead it to proof, is the general way of things.

[Siam Simon]

So then, that's a no on corroborating the sole observation by PaulBax who alleges he saw many automatic weapons by PAD at Parliament?

I seem to recall Nick Nostitz (Spelling) remarking a similar observation in a previous thread, so would that be two people who were there.........being doubted by one person who was not?

I wouldn't count on him corroborating that statement in blanco even if I wouldn't put much credit to his observations.

I'm sure that an internationally acclaimed photojournalist who is hugely respected within Thailand will be deeply wounded by the condemnation of an anonymous serial twaddler on an internet message board

[AloisAmrein]

Abhisit is a Hero. His only mistake was not authorizing the use of deadly force sooner. The Army should have been able to neutralize the terrorist red shirts after they attacked and murdered the general with hand grenades.

Abhisit is the contrary of a hero. He was not able to manage the crisis in a human manner and so he is personally responsible for the death of the people killed in the confrontations. Democracy is other then did Abhisit. Even if the oppositional Red Shirts used at times illegal means, this not justifies the killing of more than 70 protesters. Killing is not an argument.

[Buchholz]

You'll wait a long time I trust my memory......even if you choose not to

And he keeps telling us how easy it is to find posts (sometimes from several years ago) by using the forum search facility. Selective ignorance and all that.

The selective ignorance is by the person making the claim.

It is easy, but if 473geo chooses not to bother and instead sticks to "seem to recall" as good enough, that's up to him.

Which leaves us then with one solitary uncorroborated claim at an event attended by thousands and not reported by any of them.

Suffice to say, I have my doubts as to the veracity of the unvalidated claim.

If you wanted to find the personal witness evidence that Nick Nostitz presented to this forum, you would find it in seconds. But you don't, because it doesn't suit your agenda. So we get your default of endless, disingenuous prevarication.

Why on Earth would I want to track down what someone else is claiming to recall with their memory and is too lazy to validate their claim?

Ask him to look it up. If he doesn't, don't attempt to deride me over it.

Amazing Thaivisa.

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Edited December 11, 2011 by Buchholz

[Siam Simon]

Why on Earth would I want to track down what someone else is claiming to recall with their memory and is too lazy to validate their claim?

Ask him to look it up. If it doesn't, don't attempt to deride me over it.

Amazing Thaivisa.

.

You regularly track down posts and news articles that fit your propaganda when they support claims by other posters. Why on earth would you want to do that when those posters are too lazy to do it themselves?

[Buchholz]

Why on Earth would I want to track down what someone else is claiming to recall with their memory and is too lazy to validate their claim?

Ask him to look it up. If it doesn't, don't attempt to deride me over it.

Amazing Thaivisa.

You regularly track down posts

I've never done so for any one that responded to a routine request to do so with a dismissive

"You'll wait a long time"

Now then, have we expended enough time wasting to this nonsense of non-conformance with normal forum protocol to support one's opinion or is there more?

.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Buchholz

[Siam Simon]

Why on Earth would I want to track down what someone else is claiming to recall with their memory and is too lazy to validate their claim?

Ask him to look it up. If it doesn't, don't attempt to deride me over it.

Amazing Thaivisa.

You regularly track down posts

I've never done so for any one that responded to a routine request to do so with a dismissive

"You'll wait a long time"

Now then, have we expended enough time wasting to this nonsense of non-conformance with normal forum protocol to support one's opinion or is there more?

.

Weren't you one of the posters debating with Nick Nostitz in the series of posts that 473geo referred to?

[OzMick]

Would you happen to know of any corroboration on that sole observation of yours that PAD had many automatic weapons at Parliament?

To complete the comparison, did you ever observe PAD with grenade launchers at any time?

.

.

Not wishing to get into an off topic argument but really you leave me with no choice.

You and others have asserted in the past that the red shirts as a whole were not peaceful demonstrators as there were armed people (identities to be determined) around them and by extension it was OK for those red shirt demonstrators (armed or not) to be shot and killed by the security forces (in this case the army).

The Yellow shirts also had armed people (who actually were yellow shirts) around them so by yours and other peoples logic were also not peaceful demonstrators. As far as I am aware they were not shot and killed by the army. One woman was shot in the chest by a teargas canister and died. One man was blown up in his own car whilst transporting explosives. Two killed, one by the security forces (in this case the police).

Tell me why so many red shirts were killed compared to the yellow shirts using your strict logic i.e peaceful until having armed people around you and then you are considered OK to shoot dead?

The answer is quite simple - the yellow shirts never attacked the government forces. That leaves them as peaceful protesters. OTOH, when an attack which killed the military commander is planned and carried out, and soldiers armed with riot shields and batons are shot, it looks much more like an armed insurrection.

Except that the answer is a blatant lie: Yellow shirts attacked the police all day long at the big demo outside parliament.

All day - automatic rifle fire, grenades exploding - the death toll must have been horrendous!

The difference in the two situation is obvious to all but the most ardent red sycophants or deliberately obtuse.

PPD suggests that the presence of armed men makes you a fair target. He doesn't mention that overwhelmingly the red shirts killed were men, and not at all representative of the protesters as a group. They may have been unarmed when their body was recovered, but that is no proof that that was the situation at the time they were shot - in fact, with a limited number of weapons and a restricted supply line, it is only logical that their weapons would have been recovered by their "comrades in arms."

[OzMick]

Why on Earth would I want to track down what someone else is claiming to recall with their memory and is too lazy to validate their claim?

Ask him to look it up. If it doesn't, don't attempt to deride me over it.

Amazing Thaivisa.

You regularly track down posts

I've never done so for any one that responded to a routine request to do so with a dismissive

"You'll wait a long time"

Now then, have we expended enough time wasting to this nonsense of non-conformance with normal forum protocol to support one's opinion or is there more?

.

Weren't you one of the posters debating with Nick Nostitz in the series of posts that 473geo referred to?

If you asked nicely, he might instruct you on the procedure to look up old threads. Assuming your problem is incompetence rather than laziness...............of course, there is the 3rd possibility that the post doesn't exist.

[PaulBax]

Hundreds of PAD supporters, some wearing masks and armed with metal rods and baseball bats

Thanks for highlighting the huge difference between wearing masks and having rods with firing grenade launchers and machine guns.

You obviously did not go and the PAD in action around parliament! I did and saw many armed (with guns and automatic weapons as well as the usual baseball bats etc) wandering around.

Would you happen to know of any corroboration on that sole observation of yours that PAD had many automatic weapons at Parliament?

To complete the comparison, did you ever observe PAD with grenade launchers at any time?

when you see something with your own eyes you do not look for someone to agree with you!

perhaps the policeman there miraculously shot himself for example

[Buchholz]

Thanks for highlighting the huge difference between wearing masks and having rods with firing grenade launchers and machine guns.

You obviously did not go and the PAD in action around parliament! I did and saw many armed (with guns and automatic weapons as well as the usual baseball bats etc) wandering around.

Would you happen to know of any corroboration on that sole observation of yours that PAD had many automatic weapons at Parliament?

To complete the comparison, did you ever observe PAD with grenade launchers at any time?

when you see something with your own eyes you do not look for someone to agree with you!

perhaps the policeman there miraculously shot himself for example

Thank you for confirming there is no confirmation to your allegation.

.

[phiphidon]

All day - automatic rifle fire, grenades exploding - the death toll must have been horrendous!

The difference in the two situation is obvious to all but the most ardent red sycophants or deliberately obtuse.

PPD suggests that the presence of armed men makes you a fair target. He doesn't mention that overwhelmingly the red shirts killed were men, and not at all representative of the protesters as a group. They may have been unarmed when their body was recovered, but that is no proof that that was the situation at the time they were shot - in fact, with a limited number of weapons and a restricted supply line, it is only logical that their weapons would have been recovered by their "comrades in arms."

I do not suggest that the prescence of armed men makes you a fair target and you know that, you are using the usual twisting of words/prhrases MO. I was in fact stating that it was the military and democrat apologists use that argument and I was asking whether they would accept that argument for the yellow shirts as well.

I also did not mention that "overwhelmingly the red shirts killed were men, and not at all representative of the protesters as a group" because I don't believe that to be the case - I already indicated the majority of the victims were over the age of 30 in another thread, hardly young rebels, and of those who were not passers by or medical people or journalists that were killed, quite representative of the demonstrators, albeit not female.

So next time you make a post use your own comments and don't try and twist mine.

[billd766]

Why did he lie about using live ammunition?

When did he not lie? What else do you expect from him? Thailand's worst time in terms of economy was whenever democrats were in power. Dont believe in me, look at the stats and history... :jap:

Which government was in power during the 1997 financial crash?

I do believe it was Chavalit Yongchaiyudh (spelling?) and a member of that particular government later went on to become prime minister and was also convicted under a party led by his brother in law and friendly to him.

The Democrats under Chuan Leekpai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuan_Leekpai) who brought bitter medicine to try to solve the financial crisis that left the Thai economy in tatters.

They managed to pay off most of the debt to the IMF and Thaksin Shinawat with the Thai Rak Thai paid the balance though in some places it was believed though untrue that Thaksin had paid it from his own personal fortue.