Many Injured As Train Hits 9 Cars At Bangkok's Asoke Rail Crossing

[richard_smith237]

If the police simply fined each and every driver 3-500B that entered the crossing improperly including motorbikes; it would soon cause a behavior change IF they did it constantly.

With constant and consistent enforcement of the regulations / laws in Thailand an awful lot could be achieved in a very short period of time.

However, many of us live in Thailand for its 'flexibility'. I cherry pick which regulations and laws I follow. I don't drink and drive but I do driver faster than 120 kph on the expressway.

When issues like this surface many of us complain about how it shouldn't happen, it does happen everywhere (as I pointed out in a criticized earlier post). Now we want more law enforcement, but only certain aspects I suspect. So, we DO want the Nanny State, we DO want to be protected from idiots (even if its by idiots). However, realistically we each want to be nannied to our own standards and I'm sure my standards in some cases are much more wreck-less and in other cases safer than the next persons....

Onward with the debate !!!.

[pauljones]

The engineer let me drive a train from Hua Hin to Bangkok.

There are lots of close calls.

People crossing at the last second, etc.

There must be accidents all the time. We just don't hear about them often.

[Bagwan]

Maybe there should be a guy with a red flag walking in front of every train?

Au contraire. There should be a guy with a red flag walking in front of every motor vehicle.

[Humphrey Bear]

This is a mean-spirited response to this tragedy. There are many unsafe rail crossings throughout Bangkok, and in peak hours drivers do sometimes get stuck half way across the rail tracks, through no particular fault of their own. The issue is perhaps more about the appropriateness of level crossings in the middle of a huge metropolis, where heavy road traffic is continually disrupted by sporadic rail traffic. It is very very dangerous and should be addressed as an urgent infrastructure issue by the Thai authorities. If the rail lines cannot be diverted to safer routes, then elevated roadways must be built to take road traffic safely above/below/around them. Level crossings are always a hazard, but in many developed countries, they are relegated to the distant countryside, and never downtown.

There are several level crossings in Saigon (Ho Chi Minh City).

When the lights flash and the barriers start to come down, the traffic STOPS - even the majority of scooters.

This is a Thailand thing.

In Dhaka, where driving is really crazy, there is a level crossing in the city, along the main road, which leads to the airport. When the lights flash and the barriers come down, the traffic STOPS, even some of the scooters.

This is an arrogant Thailand thing.

[diehard60]

"Police said due to heavy traffic congestion in the area, cars are often stuck on the rail crossing during the red light."

Tells you something - admit: we knew for long - about the police....

Cars DON'T get stuck on the rail crossing during "due to heavy traffic congestion" .but due to a total lack of brains and/or manners.

Call it unrivalled selfishness, if you will.

Somnamna indeed.

agreed -

its not the fault of the train driver who is probably distressed - its the car drivers and the Police

I am sorry, but i have to say you are wrong. It is only the cops fault. They re not doing their job enforcing international driving laws that Thailand uses.

[MaxYakov]

I don't know why anyone bothers to comment on a situation that we all know is not going to change. Just don't drive in thailand (and many other places in the world) if you like living. They are not going to change so either accept it, or get out of the way.

Agreed. I decided this early-on and saved a lot of money and aggravation, if not my life. I use public transport or a bicycle everywhere in Thailand. I feel sorry for fellow farangs that are somehow compelled to operate a motor vehicle of any type in Thailand. I find the roadway situation, as with some other things, a little too barbaric for my tastes.

Edited December 15, 2011 by MaxYakov

[Reasonableman]

1323987530[/url]' post='4915022']

1323942246[/url]' post='4914109']

I don't know why anyone bothers to comment on a situation that we all know is not going to change. Just don't drive in thailand (and many other places in the world) if you like living. They are not going to change so either accept it, or get out of the way.

Agreed. I decided this early-on and saved a lot of money and aggravation, if not my life. I use public transport or a bicycle everywhere in Thailand. I feel sorry for fellow farangs that are somehow compelled to operate a motor vehicle of any type in Thailand. I find the roadway situation, as with some other things, a little too barbaric for my tastes.

When in Rome... Or when in Bangkok, do as the locals do. Ive been driving in Thailand for almost 15 years with only one major prang. A few near misses and scrapes, but nothing else major. Yes, it may seem chaotic, but you can acclimatise over time. Learn the unwritten rules of the Thai driving style and you can join the crowd. Its different from many other countries for sure. Either adapt or don't drive. No amount of moaning to other expats on TV is going to change it.

[Estrada]

I thought that trains had 'right of way' at crossings.

If I were to be stuck on a track in a car with red lights flahing I would need some toilet paper. Not my Buddha.

It seem that a more serious incident could have occurred here.

I used to travel every day on this train when I was first working in Thailand, only 20 minutes from Hua Mark to Makkasan. I learnt at the time that trains in Thailand do not have the right of way at crossings. They are carrying the lower classes and therefore must give way to the mercedes driving elite who made the laws, and the upper and middle classes that can afford cars. I also learnt that even the upper classes have to give way to the Government Poo Yais when they travel around Bangkok and that BIB can stop all traffic in Bangkok in order to let a few Poo Yais pass freely. Therefore the Thais consider that the low class train driver carrying the lower classes must give way to them when they stop their Mercs on a crossing.

[thaihome]

I'm guessing that at least 75% of the speculators on this thread have never driven across this crossing, most probably don't even know where it is. Pretty obvious to anyone who has that the blame lies with the train driver, signals and flag man.

Wasting your time, people are having much too much fun and having to aknowledge the truth of the stituation would get in the way of that.

TH

[whybother]

There are several level crossings in Saigon (Ho Chi Minh City).

When the lights flash and the barriers start to come down, the traffic STOPS - even the majority of scooters.

This is a Thailand thing.

In Dhaka, where driving is really crazy, there is a level crossing in the city, along the main road, which leads to the airport. When the lights flash and the barriers come down, the traffic STOPS, even some of the scooters.

This is an arrogant Thailand thing.

The traffic was stopped. This wasn't a case of traffic trying to beat the train. The traffic was stopped on the tracks before the train arrived.

[Thaddeus]

There are several level crossings in Saigon (Ho Chi Minh City).

When the lights flash and the barriers start to come down, the traffic STOPS - even the majority of scooters.

This is a Thailand thing.

In Dhaka, where driving is really crazy, there is a level crossing in the city, along the main road, which leads to the airport. When the lights flash and the barriers come down, the traffic STOPS, even some of the scooters.

This is an arrogant Thailand thing.

The traffic was stopped. This wasn't a case of traffic trying to beat the train. The traffic was stopped on the tracks before the train arrived.

I'm sure Humph means that they stop outside of the barriers.

And I agree with him, it is a me first selfish Thai thing.

[bobbysan124]

Faulty judgment aside, condolences to the families of the deceased and speedy recoveries to the injured.

[Acharn]

We need to stop assuming that things here are the same as they are in the West. In the UK if you hear the sirens/bells telling you a train is coming, you get the HELL away from the tracks, as the trains usually go past at over 60mph (used to be 90mph, and at smaller crossings in the middle of nowhere they would not slow down at all and go past at 125mph), and they ain't stopping! Also, the trains tend not to have crossings at busy traffic junctions, for safety reasons.

I'm a little confused here. Is this supposed to be talking about Bangkok? First of all I don't believe trains in Thailand have ever run anywhere at 90mph, much less 125mph. One year when I had to do visa runs I took the "express" train to the Southern border and don't believe it ever exceeded 60mph (=100kph). I saw a news story about the train crossings in Bangkok, and how they affect traffic congestion, several years ago, and I believe there are more than 100 railway crossings in the Bangkok municipal area. Many of the trains are carrying petroleum products from the port to upcountry. The trains generally move at about 25mph (if I recall correctly) and take an average of three minutes to pass the crossing. Clost to the port they move slower, as they are preparing to stop.

However, returning to Thailand, it is very common at a busy junction with a railway crossing over it, for traffic to get stuck on the tracks - and they don't get much busier than the junction at Asok/Phetchaburi, where there are cars stopped on the tracks almost constantly during busy hours.

The train is supposed to stop and wait as the cars get out of the way (it can hardly go around the cars - the only control its driver has, is over its speed). That's what the guy with the torch and red flag does at the junction - tells the driver of the train to stop or go.

I don't know where you get this idea from. I have certainly never seen a train stop to let cars get out of the way. Not in the United States, not in England, not in Germany, and certainly not in Thailand. The reason for marking railway crossings so prominently is because the trains are not going to stop -- in fact they practically can't

In this case the guy with the flag was waving frantically telling the train to stop - and people here are blaming the cars?

I was at the junction as they were still clearing the line last night, about an hour after the incident. More telling to me was that the song-taew driver I spoke to said that the train driver was probably drunk. If that were the case, would people here still blame the cars' drivers?

We don't know what the train consisted of or which direction it was going. I think that if the driver (in the States we call them the engineer) was drunk it wouldn't make much difference. The coefficient of friction between the wheels and the rails is quite low and the train has a mass of many tens of tons, even if it's made up of empty cars. Even if the driver applies the brakes immediately the train takes more than a mile to come to a full stop. A guy with a red flag at the crossing can't do much more that warn the engineer to brace himself for a crash, because the engineer can't see him from even a quarter of a mile away.

I've passed that crossing many times and the fault lies with the placement of the traffic light and the impatience of Thai drivers. I remember thinking many times that it was just a matter of time until they had a disaster there.

[Reasonableman]

We don't know what the train consisted of or which direction it was going. I think that if the driver (in the States we call them the engineer) was drunk it wouldn't make much difference. The coefficient of friction between the wheels and the rails is quite low and the train has a mass of many tens of tons, even if it's made up of empty cars. Even if the driver applies the brakes immediately the train takes more than a mile to come to a full stop. A guy with a red flag at the crossing can't do much more that warn the engineer to brace himself for a crash, because the engineer can't see him from even a quarter of a mile away.

Trains moving very slowly (not 60-125 miles per hour), as they normally do in downtown Bangkok, especially near level crossings because of the well-known hazard, do not take a mile to stop. The "engineer" , e.g. at Makkasan crossing, seems to be able to communicate just fine with the signalmen, and the trains move at a speed that allows them to stop in a short distance. The boomgates normally control all but motorcycle and pedestrian traffic effectively. Its still a bit of a free-for-all, but the intersection is cleared of cars, trucks, buses, etc., before the train is allowed to cross.

[Credo]

The other major daily newspaper had reported that the train braking system had failed.

Trains simply cannot stop easily under the best of conditions. In the city there is a great deal of effort to get the cars off the tracks before a train is allowed to proceed.

At times, it's almost impossible not to get stuck on the tracks.

[madjbs]

Even if the driver applies the brakes immediately the train takes more than a mile to come to a full stop. A guy with a red flag at the crossing can't do much more that warn the engineer to brace himself for a crash, because the engineer can't see him from even a quarter of a mile away.

I've passed that crossing many times and the fault lies with the placement of the traffic light and the impatience of Thai drivers. I remember thinking many times that it was just a matter of time until they had a disaster there.

Every time I have ever seen a train passing through the crossings on this line they have never been moving more than 10mph and at least half of those times the train has stopped to wait for the crossing to be cleared. The crossings in Bangkok are regularly completely chocked with traffic and the trains move at a speed which reflects this. They can and do stop to wait for the signal man to give the green light once the crossing is clear and regularly do so.....

In this case it must either be communication breakdown or perhaps mechanical failure.

Edited December 16, 2011 by madjbs

[smedly]

<deleted> me it aint rocket science is it, you dont enter the rail area until your exit is clear, unfortunately with the childish I must be first/in front/cant wait selfish attitude here they get what they deserve. Tomorrow it will all happen again, in fact theyll even sit in the crossing eyeing the burnt out wreckage because of course "it weill never happen again".

Many Thais dont know what or how to use a roundabout/island/junction/traffic light so they will have zero ability to undertsand the yellow diagonals which I assume were painted on the road here? That said they dont know in the UK half the time and when you wind down your widnow as you try to cross the blocked road pointing it out you get every name under the sun, thats why im such a "people" person.

Yellow diagonals DO NOT ENTER unless your exit is clear ( in the Uk unless you wish to turn right then its ok)

Unfortunately observing yellow "do not enter unless exit clear signs" and the like are simply ignored by both drivers and police to enforce along with a multitude of other moving traffic offecnces, sometimes I get the impression they think some invisable object is going to fill the gap if they leave it there, I hate to say it but nobody to blame but themselves for being so short sighted - and the police are more interested in lining their pockets than road safety, in pattaya they erect these daft center road barriers at junctions instead of enforcing traffic law - they cause more accidents than anything else as drivers try to manover round them and do u-turns etc. it is quite alarming

[Oberkommando]

When the motorists in Bangkok don't stop for children crossing the road at a zebra crossing with a red light as I see on a daily basis then I'm surprised this kind of thing doesn't happen more often.

[thailand49]

The police would not provide a citation because they themselves have no idea as to the concept of basic driver education. Rules are made and might sound silly but they are there for the chance it might happen regardless of how small.

In Pattaya I don't know how many times I have stopped short of the railroad tracks only to be told by the police to move up! Each time I refuse and I explain to them why! They just don't understand the basic and the basic is this...

This isn't provided in any driver handbook but a former truck driver with a teaching certification the rule is this..

1. Never stop on the track... the reason is obvious

2. Never shift gears while crossing the track.. this is so in case you kill the vehicle while shifting!

Both of these rules are a automatic failure in a driver test for commercial vehicles!!!

Not surprising since Thais have no idea what to do if a emergency vehicle needs to get by?

[thailand49]

<br />

Even if the driver applies the brakes immediately the train takes more than a mile to come to a full stop. A guy with a red flag at the crossing can't do much more that warn the engineer to brace himself for a crash, because the engineer can't see him from even a quarter of a mile away.<br /><br />I've passed that crossing many times and the fault lies with the placement of the traffic light and the impatience of Thai drivers. I remember thinking many times that it was just a matter of time until they had a disaster there.

<br /><br />Every time I have ever seen a train passing through the crossings on this line they have never been moving more than 10mph and at least half of those times the train has stopped to wait for the crossing to be cleared. The crossings in Bangkok are regularly completely chocked with traffic and the trains move at a speed which reflects this. They can and do stop to wait for the signal man to give the green light once the crossing is clear and regularly do so.....  <img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br /><br />In this case it must either be communication breakdown or perhaps mechanical failure.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Do the math, take a train and its weight, even at a slow speed a train hitting a car is like crushing a can. Take the weight of a car and up against a motorkike. I have seen a car tap a motorbike at less that 2mph and sent the bike in the air!

[bigbamboo]

&lt;deleted&gt; me it aint rocket science is it, you dont enter the rail area until your exit is clear, unfortunately with the childish I must be first/in front/cant wait selfish attitude here they get what they deserve. Tomorrow it will all happen again, in fact theyll even sit in the crossing eyeing the burnt out wreckage because of course "it weill never happen again".

Many Thais dont know what or how to use a roundabout/island/junction/traffic light so they will have zero ability to undertsand the yellow diagonals which I assume were painted on the road here? That said they dont know in the UK half the time and when you wind down your widnow as you try to cross the blocked road pointing it out you get every name under the sun, thats why im such a "people" person.

Yellow diagonals DO NOT ENTER unless your exit is clear ( in the Uk unless you wish to turn right then its ok)

Surely even in Thailand trains have right of way over cars on rail crossings!

[whybother]

Surely even in Thailand trains have right of way over cars on rail crossings!

I'm sure they do. But the reality is, this particular crossing is always blocked, so trains would most likely be prepared to stop if it is not clear.

[madjbs]

nooo.... they have right of way, sureley they just plough through at full speed regardless of whats on the crossing...

(at least that's what most on here seem to think should or does happen)

[AlanL1275]

We need to stop assuming that things here are the same as they are in the West. In the UK if you hear the sirens/bells telling you a train is coming, you get the HELL away from the tracks, as the trains usually go past at over 60mph (used to be 90mph, and at smaller crossings in the middle of nowhere they would not slow down at all and go past at 125mph), and they ain't stopping! Also, the trains tend not to have crossings at busy traffic junctions, for safety reasons.

However, returning to Thailand, it is very common at a busy junction with a railway crossing over it, for traffic to get stuck on the tracks - and they don't get much busier than the junction at Asok/Phetchaburi, where there are cars stopped on the tracks almost constantly during busy hours.

The train is supposed to stop and wait as the cars get out of the way (it can hardly go around the cars - the only control its driver has, is over its speed). That's what the guy with the torch and red flag does at the junction - tells the driver of the train to stop or go.

In this case the guy with the flag was waving frantically telling the train to stop - and people here are blaming the cars?

I was at the junction as they were still clearing the line last night, about an hour after the incident. More telling to me was that the song-taew driver I spoke to said that the train driver was probably drunk. If that were the case, would people here still blame the cars' drivers?

The only way I am going to die at a train intersection in BKK will be if I am in a Thai Taxi, or Bus and can't escape it in time. Or maybe on back of a greedy Motorbike Taxi trying to beat it, but maybe I would jump off in time.

Never in my own car!

The land of no respect for life! Especially for pedestrians.

GEEEEZ

[wxyz]

right of way or not, there is no future in being 'dead right' emphasis on the dead

[Fookhaht]

&lt;deleted&gt; me it aint rocket science is it, you dont enter the rail area until your exit is clear, unfortunately with the childish I must be first/in front/cant wait selfish attitude here they get what they deserve. Tomorrow it will all happen again, in fact theyll even sit in the crossing eyeing the burnt out wreckage because of course "it weill never happen again".

Many Thais dont know what or how to use a roundabout/island/junction/traffic light so they will have zero ability to undertsand the yellow diagonals which I assume were painted on the road here? That said they dont know in the UK half the time and when you wind down your widnow as you try to cross the blocked road pointing it out you get every name under the sun, thats why im such a "people" person.

Yellow diagonals DO NOT ENTER unless your exit is clear ( in the Uk unless you wish to turn right then its ok)

Surely even in Thailand trains have right of way over cars on rail crossings!

Strange as it may seem, the laws of physics makes this a worldwide phenomenon...