Electric Meter

[prefabs]

Doing alterations at a house, need to put in at least one air con unit. Maybe two, but never together. House is out in the sticks in a small village. Don't have an electrician involved yet, but the builder told gf that the meter is no good for air con unit. I assume he means that it can't handle the current. Looks like standard 16mm tails from the meter to the consumer unit. The air con unit(s) would be 9000btu, so not too big. Apart from that, all we have is an electric shower, some lights and an intermittent duty water pump, which I think is about 150w.

I am overseas till next week and wonder how many sizes of meter are available. What does a new one cost? Also wonder as to who can change the meter if required? In UK, that would mean the supplier, I assume same here in Thailand

[Crossy]

You probably have a 5/15 (15A) meter, suitable for a small shed, your electric water heater is likely pushing that meter to its limit.

Upgrade path is to a 15/45 (45A) which should be just what you need, a 30/100 (100A) is available in some areas and is the largest single-phase supply normally available.

All these meters will take a 100% overload so your 45A won't fry even at 90A+ although this meter is usually fused by an incoming breaker of 63A.

You need to check the tails, 5/15 supplies usually have 10mm tails which are really too small for a 15/45, the supply authority (PEA) will change your meter.

Not sure of the cost.

[prefabs]

Thanks for that, reckon I will get a bigger consumer unit fitted with either a couple of RCDs or a Master one

[kamalabob2]

Perhaps they have a 3 amp or 5 amp currently. The 15/45 single phase might be worth considering. In our small town at the PEA office on a huge sign inside the "customer service" area of that office (not the bill payment side of the office) the prices are posted in detail for all the PEA meters and electric service. There are several single phase meters offered at this typical PEA office with the prices all broken out to list the installation fee, the VAT charge, the REFUNDABLE deposit, actual METER price, and a total. In the O.P.'s case they may or may not have to pay any or perhaps a pro-rated DEPOSIT, if they have the original PEA receipt for the original deposit on the existing meter. They will gladly write down all the fees and point to where those fees are listed on the PEA sign. There is not a huge mystery to single phase electric service in Thailand if served by a PEA office and NEAR existing PEA lines. 3 phase service or a long distance from existing PEA lines is a different kettle of fish.

[prefabs]

Perhaps they have a 3 amp or 5 amp currently. The 15/45 single phase might be worth considering. In our small town at the PEA office on a huge sign inside the "customer service" area of that office (not the bill payment side of the office) the prices are posted in detail for all the PEA meters and electric service. There are several single phase meters offered at this typical PEA office with the prices all broken out to list the installation fee, the VAT charge, the REFUNDABLE deposit, actual METER price, and a total. In the O.P.'s case they may or may not have to pay any or perhaps a pro-rated DEPOSIT, if they have the original PEA receipt for the original deposit on the existing meter. They will gladly write down all the fees and point to where those fees are listed on the PEA sign. There is not a huge mystery to single phase electric service in Thailand if served by a PEA office and NEAR existing PEA lines. 3 phase service or a long distance from existing PEA lines is a different kettle of fish.

I am sorry, maybe I am reading this wrong. What do you mean by "Perhaps they have a 3 amp or 5 amp currently."?

[Crossy]

I am sorry, maybe I am reading this wrong. What do you mean by "Perhaps they have a 3 amp or 5 amp currently."?

It's an existing home is it not? Therefore it has an existing meter, I've not come across a 3 Amp but 5 Amp (5/15) is very common.

[prefabs]

I am sorry, maybe I am reading this wrong. What do you mean by "Perhaps they have a 3 amp or 5 amp currently."?

It's an existing home is it not? Therefore it has an existing meter, I've not come across a 3 Amp but 5 Amp (5/15) is very common.

Yes, it is already a house. No idea what a 3 A or 5A would mean unless the meter is downrated internally by a current transormer

[Crossy]

Yes, it is already a house. No idea what a 3 A or 5A would mean unless the meter is downrated internally by a current transormer

What Bob is calling a 5 Amp meter is a 5/15 (15A max) unit, direct reading, no CT in view.

The first number (5) is the calibration current at which the meter attains its specified accuracy, the second number (15) is the maximum rated load current. These meters are very robust, most won't even blink at a 100% overload (30A) and are usually fused at 50% over the rated current.

[harrry]

The problem with getting a large meter is that you lose the stepped rate for electricity supply. On a 5 amp meter you pay a low rate for the first few units a higher rate for the next and so on., WIth the large meters you pay the top rate for all current. This means you will pay up to 500 baht a month more.

[Crossy]

The problem with getting a large meter is that you lose the stepped rate for electricity supply. On a 5 amp meter you pay a low rate for the first few units a higher rate for the next and so on., WIth the large meters you pay the top rate for all current. This means you will pay up to 500 baht a month more.

Not quite Harrry look here http://www.pea.co.th...ame=Residential

On the <150kWH rate you pay more for units 65-150 than the >150kWH rate. I'll have to do the sums to work out if you save by keeping the small meter.

EDIT OK done the sums.

IF I've done it right you do not always save by keeping the smaller meter:-

On a 150kWH usage the small meter will bill you 302 Baht, the large meter will bill you 270 Baht. The change over point is about 100 kWH per month (both meters are about 180 Baht).

[sezze]

Yes, it is already a house. No idea what a 3 A or 5A would mean unless the meter is downrated internally by a current transormer

What Bob is calling a 5 Amp meter is a 5/15 (15A max) unit, direct reading, no CT in view.

The first number (5) is the calibration current at which the meter attains its specified accuracy, the second number (15) is the maximum rated load current. These meters are very robust, most won't even blink at a 100% overload (30A) and are usually fused at 50% over the rated current.

Mine has a 5/15 meter , hot water is gas / no aircon , so no problem ( not a small shed ) . A 3kw unit water heater is no problem with these meters but an aircon would be too much and would need a change to 15/45 . When building my house they where using a 10kw welding machine and at some points and did put it to the max ... it was spinning like crazy but it was not broken after . 100% overloads are no problem as long as is not a regular thing . That is why a water heater is no problem for smaller meter and aircons are ... they use the high current during prolonged times .

[kamalabob2]

I have personally seen an older Thai village house with a 3amp meter, while for several years 5amp. is the minimum service meter available from the PEA. I have personally seen the explosion and damage caused to an attached house in our small town where the 5amp meter that originally was installed by a Buriram builder of many two bedroom houses, was not suitable for the expat who had installed a an electric water shower heater, a water pump, and two small a/c split units. All the power on our soi was knocked out and the PEA would not re-connect that expats electric service until he bought a more suitable meter, perhaps it was the 15 amp meter. Post #10 is spot on and safety is a genuine issue, so the correct size meter does count in my observation. The cost is NOT huge for the larger single phase meters, as a large part of the fee is a refundable deposit, providing you keep the receipt for that deposit. The "devil is in the details" when you require 3 phase and/or extra poles of a specific mandated size and height, to a home plot that is not already very near an existing "Government Road" with existing suitable service on the PEA poles near that parcel.

[prefabs]

Thanks guys, I am now well up on what I need. However, gf had a better solution. She took a picture on her phone and went to the local electricity supply company where they told her "maybe can OK, maybe cannot, no good" So we are really confident of what we need now.

I"ll just ask for a 15/45 and shut up

Karmalabob. re your post #4, do they show prices for installation and would they have a man come out to fit a new meter and also a consumer unit with ELCB/RCD protection. Do they actually have a consumer unit available in their system?

[kamalabob2]

I had several moonlighting PEA employees pitch my wife to do our new home electric installation, but our builder had her own electricians. I have paid moonlighting PEA electricians to install a circuit breaker box and numerous items in a rental home, he charged on a "so many baht per point" system, sort of piece rate. In my wife's village a PEA staff person does cash jobs all the time in various village homes. However none of this was organized or negotiated at the PEA office, it was from personal previous relationships. So in my experience, officially the PEA only does the installation to the meter, but no shortage of that staff that will give you a written bid to do other electric installation work far beyond the scope of what the UTILITY has a mission to provide. Every small town has more than one actual electrical contractor, usually with a former PEA utility truck parked at his home. 15/45 might be a sensible size meter for what you have posted.

[Crossy]

Yes, I'm with Bob ^^^. PEAs official responsibility ends at the meter, anything after that is your responsibility, that includes any poles and cables needed to get from the meter to the house.

If you can find a real electrical contractor (or moonlighting PEA chap) he should at least have the proper tools, unlike many village sparks who get by with industrial scissors and two screwdrivers.

[prefabs]

Yes, I'm with Bob ^^^. PEAs official responsibility ends at the meter, anything after that is your responsibility, that includes any poles and cables needed to get from the meter to the house.

If you can find a real electrical contractor (or moonlighting PEA chap) he should at least have the proper tools, unlike many village sparks who get by with industrial scissors and two screwdrivers.

PEA moonlighting chaps might be hard to find, but I will gladly pay full rate to stay alive. Think that is probably the best way

[electau]

The PEA will decide what the metering size will be depending on your max demand in amps.

The max demand may be the rating of the main circuit breaker (60/63A). the standard meter now is 15/45A 220V 400 rev per kWh. Meters can sustain 100% overloads.

　

Edited February 5, 2012 by electau

[Crossy]

The PEA will decide what the metering size will be depending on your max demand in amps.

The max demand may be the rating of the main circuit breaker (60/63A). the standard meter now is 15/45A 220V 400 rev per kWh. Meters can sustain 100% overloads.

Hey electau, been a while since you posted, welcome back

On the subject of the 100% overloads, the instructions for the meters we're using on a project do indeed state that 100% overload is acceptable but with no indication of duration. Any practical experience of just how long one can pull 90A through a 15/45 before it becomes unhappy?

[electau]

Yes Crossy I have been in Thailand.

No, I have never had a meter with 100% overload except perhaps under test conditions.

With installation design that problem would be ruled out. Overload capability should be in the meter manufacturers specifications

[prefabs]

Well gents, thanks for all the information. Went into PEA in Kaempeng Phet this morning. Asked for a 15/45 meter to be installed. Gf was filling out a pile of forms when we asked about a Safe T cut out being installed. That was another deal entirely. We then had to go to an adjacent building and talk to someone (presumably an engineer) who said that before they could proceed that a site visit was required. OK, seems reasonable, but it is 50 kms to our abode, says I. No problems says the engineer, tomorrow at 12pm. Then I mentions the Safet T cut out again and he gets fidgety. Eventually told us where we could buy one and the guy would fit it when the meter was being changed AT LEAST 2 DAYS AFTER the survey. So I asked him why the guy could not come with a meter, a roll of cable if needed, but I am sure it is 16mm already. Then, just as we reached the shop which was selling Safe T cutouts, he called to say we shouldn't buy anything before the survey report was completed. In the shop, they only had 2 sizes, 32A and 63A. So now I am wondering what kind of business they are running. I explained the total loading of the house and the projected additional load of 6.2KW, should have been easy for an engineer to work it out. Of course, it might happen some day that both units will start at exactly the same time after a power cut, for example, but how hard can it be to wrk it out?Now we are faced with paying for a survey, the additional return for installation and am wondering if he has some old Safe T cutouts he wants to get rid of (sans guarantee etc.)

[harrry]

What may have happened is that the engineer must view the incoming cables. The PEA in Chiangrai would not install an upgraded meter on the single strand conductors that the house had. They had to be upgraded to multistrand of the correct rating. THis was not cheap for the actual cable cost. Installing a Safetycut is not a PEA function you should provide the electrician for it. They may have agreed to help you but advised you not to buy anything until they had seen if they can upgrade.

[prefabs]

What may have happened is that the engineer must view the incoming cables. The PEA in Chiangrai would not install an upgraded meter on the single strand conductors that the house had. They had to be upgraded to multistrand of the correct rating. THis was not cheap for the actual cable cost. Installing a Safetycut is not a PEA function you should provide the electrician for it. They may have agreed to help you but advised you not to buy anything until they had seen if they can upgrade.

Sorry, I may have confused the issue here. We enquired about the Safe T cut out and it's installation for which we were quite willing to pay the going rate. There was a list of "to dos" and their associated prices on the initial form, but I couldn't read Thai and gf didn't notice. As there is nobody we know out here in the sticks who can do it, we are kinda stuck until the man arrives tomorrow.

[prefabs]

Fast approaching the &lt;deleted&gt; stage here. The PEA guy didn't turn up, so we called. He asked what length of cable from the pole to the house and then said he wouldn't be coming as he was too busy and that we would have to go back to the office. Gf told him that we thought the cable was correctly sized, he asked her what colour it was. When she said blue, he said it had to be black . 50 kilometres each way is above my annoyance threshold, so I am buggered as to what to do next.

[harrry]

Fast approaching the &lt;deleted&gt; stage here. The PEA guy didn't turn up, so we called. He asked what length of cable from the pole to the house and then said he wouldn't be coming as he was too busy and that we would have to go back to the office. Gf told him that we thought the cable was correctly sized, he asked her what colour it was. When she said blue, he said it had to be black . 50 kilometres each way is above my annoyance threshold, so I am buggered as to what to do next.

That is what I thought.,..the cable4 is single core (blue) and will need to be replaced with multicore (black).

[prefabs]

Fast approaching the &lt;deleted&gt; stage here. The PEA guy didn't turn up, so we called. He asked what length of cable from the pole to the house and then said he wouldn't be coming as he was too busy and that we would have to go back to the office. Gf told him that we thought the cable was correctly sized, he asked her what colour it was. When she said blue, he said it had to be black . 50 kilometres each way is above my annoyance threshold, so I am buggered as to what to do next.

That is what I thought.,..the cable4 is single core (blue) and will need to be replaced with multicore (black).

Fast approaching the &lt;deleted&gt; stage here. The PEA guy didn't turn up, so we called. He asked what length of cable from the pole to the house and then said he wouldn't be coming as he was too busy and that we would have to go back to the office. Gf told him that we thought the cable was correctly sized, he asked her what colour it was. When she said blue, he said it had to be black . 50 kilometres each way is above my annoyance threshold, so I am buggered as to what to do next.

That is what I thought.,..the cable4 is single core (blue) and will need to be replaced with multicore (black).

Totally confused me with this one now. We drove into the office again, and the woman we spoke to about the meter yesterday says that the cables need changing, yesterday she only needed a survey. We then basically parked ourselves at the service engineer's office until a PEA guy agreed to do the job tomorrow as a homer. When I was in the engineers office, I pointed out to him a meter on a pole about 10 yards away with a black cable. It actually had a 2 core 10mm cable to and from the meter. He said that was for a 5/15 meter only. I reckon a 25mm 2 core would be pretty big for stringing over a 20 metre gap.

He gave us the address once more of the shop where we can buy a Safe T unit and the cable (yes, I know not in the PEA remit). But the cable he asked us to get is 25mm sq. SINGLE CORE. More surprising is that the shop did not have 25mm sq. copper cable only Aluminium. The guys said it would be OK.

So, why do we need a multi core cable? Is it the regs for Thailand, never seen it mentioned before on TVisa.

[Crossy]

I feel your pain.

25mm Al is the equivalent of 16mm Cu. If you are connecting it to your Consumer Unit you should ensure that the incomer is rated for use with Al or use Cu pigtails - in reality this never happens in Thailand and the man just bungs the Al cable in the regular connector.

I have never seen any requirement for the use of a multicore cable from the meter to the house, indeed it is outside PEA's remit, so as long as it's adequately sized they should have no issues. All the homes in our village have singles on poles.

I'm now confused, they are insisting on multicore cable, but sent you to buy singles?

To be honest, I'd just do as they ask, it's less painful.

[prefabs]

I feel your pain.

25mm Al is the equivalent of 16mm Cu. If you are connecting it to your Consumer Unit you should ensure that the incomer is rated for use with Al or use Cu pigtails - in reality this never happens in Thailand and the man just bungs the Al cable in the regular connector.

I have never seen any requirement for the use of a multicore cable from the meter to the house, indeed it is outside PEA's remit, so as long as it's adequately sized they should have no issues. All the homes in our village have singles on poles.

I'm now confused, they are insisting on multicore cable, but sent you to buy singles?

To be honest, I'd just do as they ask, it's less painful.

Again, I think I have confused the issue. It was Harry who mentioned multi cores. However, the saga continued tonight at 7.15.

Big Suprise 2 PEA guys rocked up and ran the new Aluminium cables, and will be back tomorrow to finsh the job. Of course, it was dark and the first thing they asked for was a flashlight!!!!!!!! Mind you, they did have a splendid bydraulic platform. Scared me half to death when the guy was up there in the dark amongst all the wires for another 2 houses.

One thing I did not mention was that inducements were offered and duly accepted before we left the office. Gf is now mad at me for succumbing to Thai corruption, blissfully unaware that she started me on the slippery slope

[Crossy]

Nah, has to be my addled brain (not had any beer for two days due to anti-biotics). Looks like you're on the way to a solution.

[bankruatsteve]

Get the 25mm2 AL. That's pretty much "standard" for 15/45 meter as far as PEA is concerned. And, it's totally adequate for the purpose. The "blue" is usually for 5/15.

Oh - I see I must have missed a post or more. Nevermind.....

Edited February 7, 2012 by bankruatsteve

[prefabs]

in my original post, I asked how much it would all cost. The meter inspector guy turned up today and said that the meter should be changed in a week. So, 2 visits from 2 PEA guys for the installation, one visit from the surveyor and another guy coming with the meter and a PEA bill of 4500 baht. As we live 50 kms from the PEA office, means a total of 400 kms. Cable was 1100 baht, we bought a 63A Safe T Cut, 3600 baht, means a bill of 9200 baht so far. Add a few bob to the moonlighting sparkies, still under 12000.