@bookman, you are right about abstention from certain foods. Many of us can do it for a while then fall off the wagon. Addiction is a terrible thing.

This partly the reason why most people yo yo diet, they lose 3 stone and put on 4. The most critical mistakes people make are.....

They effectively starve their metabolism but extreme dieting, and once they start eating normally it's a calorie overload.

They don't hydrate enough, hydration is the most critical part of dieting, the human body needs water more than food.

Then during the diet phase they lose a high percentage of their lean muscle, they celebrate losing 3 stone, but half a stone of that is muscle. Muscle number one, it is a nightmare to rebuild, and muscle loss causes the rapid increase in weight when dieting stops, as muscle is your furnace.

It's another complex issue that I will address later, I'm on my blackberry and it's taking me ages to post.

I do agree that people cannot abstain from all food for a long length of time: People can however limit what they eat and the types of things they eat. By giving up certain foods, that in itself is a type of abstinence. I don't know if anyone on here says that the abstinence of certain food types is easy, just that it can be done by some and that doing it leads to results.

Back in the 80's I believed that eating fatty food was the cause of fat. So I ate non-fatty foods like bread, pasta, rice, potatoes. I'd eat 500g of pasta for a meal or a monster pot of rice (with corn and canned chicken mixed in). I never got rid of my gut! I was a carb-eating machine! In the 90's my meager lunch "diet" consisted of nothing more than a Coke and a Snickers bar. When I started Atkins for the first time, I had to change my diet 180 degrees. How the hell could I give up carbs? That was all I practically ate! However, I found after going cold turkey on carbs for a while, I lost all cravings for it. Maybe that doesn't work for everyone, but it worked for me.

I have found similar myself. I no longer crave hot chips, or a hamburger, or potato chips (well, okay, Lorenz brand salt n vinegar thin ones -- i am so glad they don't have them in OZ).

@bookman, you are right about abstention from certain foods. Many of us can do it for a while then fall off the wagon. Addiction is a terrible thing.

This partly the reason why most people yo yo diet, they lose 3 stone and put on 4. The most critical mistakes people make are.....

They effectively starve their metabolism but extreme dieting, and once they start eating normally it's a calorie overload.

They don't hydrate enough, hydration is the most critical part of dieting, the human body needs water more than food.

Then during the diet phase they lose a high percentage of their lean muscle, they celebrate losing 3 stone, but half a stone of that is muscle. Muscle number one, it is a nightmare to rebuild, and muscle loss causes the rapid increase in weight when dieting stops, as muscle is your furnace.

It's another complex issue that I will address later, I'm on my blackberry and it's taking me ages to post.

I hardly bother on my smartphone..just too painful for the long answers. Okay for quick replies.

The gastric band brings a whole new set of complications, I've seen times when it's blocked for 24 hours, that's a long time without liquid.

It often blocks through the night, causing fitful sleep due to choking, sleep is essential for weight loss. You can be perfect all day, and disturbed sleep can undo all your good work.

Truthfully, the amount of factors involved in weight loss are nightmarish. My salvation is Thailand, I love the healthy Thai foods, the spices, the fish, the salads, and I love the way they are prepared. Natural foods, I eat steamed fish and tuna salads every day cos I love them, not because they are healthy, I love them!!

On my next winter trip I'll be back into the Muay Thai, and I will take up golfing again. Bookman I saw you post in Feb is there a age limit to MT training, no there isn't, you train to your fitness level. MT is superb training. I'll start playing golf again too, participative sports are far better than the boredom of the gym.

Participative sports are also far more fun in the sun, another reason why I love Thailand. There's a lot for me to consider. However at the root of it all I know it's my battle, and I will never give up.

I bet maccaroni man recognizes that statement.

The gastric band brings a whole new set of complications, I've seen times when it's blocked for 24 hours, that's a long time without liquid.

It often blocks through the night, causing fitful sleep due to choking, sleep is essential for weight loss. You can be perfect all day, and disturbed sleep can undo all your good work.

Truthfully, the amount of factors involved in weight loss are nightmarish. My salvation is Thailand, I love the healthy Thai foods, the spices, the fish, the salads, and I love the way they are prepared. Natural foods, I eat steamed fish and tuna salads every day cos I love them, not because they are healthy, I love them!!

On my next winter trip I'll be back into the Muay Thai, and I will take up golfing again. Bookman I saw you post in Feb is there a age limit to MT training, no there isn't, you train to your fitness level. MT is superb training. I'll start playing golf again too, participative sports are far better than the boredom of the gym.

Participative sports are also far more fun in the sun, another reason why I love Thailand. There's a lot for me to consider. However at the root of it all I know it's my battle, and I will never give up.

I bet maccaroni man recognizes that statement.

The Gastric banding sounds awful mate.

Thailand has some great foods that are every healthy, those steamed fish varieties with lemongrass and ginger and garlic and chilli can be awesome. (Sure they like some deep fried stuff, and they have those processed meatballs everywhere...and they like to sweeten their sugar with more sugar) but there is plenty of fresh stuff is you can prepare yourself or eat in the right places.

You have a good memory Blether, i did indeed post that about Muay Thai. A friend, much younger than me, is always trying to get me into martial arts. I should give it a go one day.

When I started this thread, I expected 10-20 posts grumbling about PC. But Jingthing hijacked it, largely due to my first post, and it's beginning to throw up some good posts now that we're getting both sides of the question. I appreciate theblether's posts; it doesn't concern me directly, but thank you. I admit that at first I wondered whether you were trolling, but your cri de coeur was so heartfelt that I decided not! I'm glad I took you seriously.

There are various levels to this problem of obesity. Most (I still think most) are self-induced, simply because people eat too many junk foods, and don't start doing anything about it until it is too late. Others, like you and a few people I've mentioned in earlier posts, have a helluva problem, and all kudos to you for trying to tackle it. Obviously your problem was initiated by something which happened when you had your accident, and that is the sort of place where the medical researchers should be concentrating. We can still laugh, unkindly, at the poor lady who got stuck in the bath, presumably au naturel, but I've never denied that there are people whose problem is very real, and not self-induced.

There's been much too much emotion on this thread. Emotion will solve nothing, though it may jog people into realising a problem exists. We have to think about what the solutions are. I don't have much faith in pills, except for specific illnesses; in this case, I think we have to see how well the lifelong dietary control works. Of course it won't work for people who don't try it, though. I, with a very minor problem, have been carefully controlling my diet for seven or eight years now, and it's not always fun.... oh, how I miss those rich foods! (Of course I backslide occasionally)

It's an interesting topic though Isanbirder, I think we've all learnt something. I'll be having a chat to Smokie about his paper when we are in Thailand next month no doubt.

Very interesting.

No faith in pills?!?

Depends on what disease mate.

For some ailments, there are GREAT pills with predictable effects, working on most everyone, and reasonable side effects.

For obesity ... NOT YET.

Obviously, stomach tying is an EXTREME measure though I think the side effects/problems vary. I know some people who have them without any serious problems.

For obesity, there exists no predictably effective non-invasive treatment that enough people can actually achieve good long results from. Yes, in theory diet and exercise can work, but as explained as nauseum here, for various reasons (not only self control) a huge percentage of people can't get the hoped for LONG TERM results. That is the harsh fact; you can't poo poo that unless you simply don't care if nations get fatter and fatter which no relief in sight.

Just because that is the situation today, doesn't mean there won't be future breakthroughs in medicine that compare favorably with other chronic disease. Personally, I expect there will be but not sure exactly when.

In the meantime of course, societies SHOULD (but don't) work hard on reducing the obesogenic environment (especially for the poorer masses who don't have the choices of the elites), companies should be pressured to offer healthier food, education about preventing obesity SHOULD be (but won't) be a top priority for children and parents, and of course individuals who are educated SHOULD get great support from their medical care system to do what it is possible for them to do in the areas of diet and exercise. But don't kid yourself, simply telling the masses go home and diet and exercise has failed miserably and will continue to do so. MUCH more action is needed.

I think I'm getting involuntary cross-eyeism

I think I'm getting involuntary cross-eyeism

You're welcome.

No faith in pills?!?

Depends on what disease mate.

For some ailments, there are GREAT pills with predictable effects, working on most everyone, and reasonable side effects.

For obesity ... NOT YET.

Obviously, stomach tying is an EXTREME measure though I think the side effects/problems vary. I know some people who have them without any serious problems.

For obesity, there exists no predictably effective non-invasive treatment that enough people can actually achieve good long results from. Yes, in theory diet and exercise can work, but as explained as nauseum here, for various reasons (not only self control) a huge percentage of people can't get the hoped for LONG TERM results. That is the harsh fact; you can't poo poo that unless you simply don't care if nations get fatter and fatter which no relief in sight.

Just because that is the situation today, doesn't mean there won't be future breakthroughs in medicine that compare favorably with other chronic disease. Personally, I expect there will be but not sure exactly when.

In the meantime of course, societies SHOULD (but don't) work hard on reducing the obesogenic environment (especially for the poorer masses who don't have the choices of the elites), companies should be pressured to offer healthier food, education about preventing obesity SHOULD be (but won't) be a top priority for children and parents, and of course individuals who are educated SHOULD get great support from their medical care system to do what it is possible for them to do in the areas of diet and exercise. But don't kid yourself, simply telling the masses go home and diet and exercise has failed miserably and will continue to do so. MUCH more action is needed.

Pills to cure obesity. Don't take things out of context, mate.

I agree with most of the rest of your post, except that I don't think obesity is a single disease; as explained before, I think it is a complex of diseases, some of which may be curable with drugs.

But more action, YES, certainly.

Well, it's Jubilee day (Vivat Regina!) and I'm off down to the local to have a big plate of roast beef, Yorkshire pud, roast spuds and multiple veggies. The carbs can look after themselves for today

In the meantime of course, societies SHOULD (but don't) work hard on reducing the obesogenic environment (especially for the poorer masses who don't have the choices of the elites), companies should be pressured to offer healthier food, education about preventing obesity SHOULD be (but won't) be a top priority for children and parents, and of course individuals who are educated SHOULD get great support from their medical care system to do what it is possible for them to do in the areas of diet and exercise. But don't kid yourself, simply telling the masses go home and diet and exercise has failed miserably and will continue to do so. MUCH more action is needed.

Finally i agree with you JT. While shopping today I spotted a sign pointing to "Get your snacks here! Two for the price of one!"

Its the food equivalent of a 24 hour happy hour in a bar.

You've heard of beer goggles. Now there are food goggles:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/05/japan_fat_busting_goggles_augmented_reality/

The article mentions that Japan has one of the lowest rates of adult obesity in the world. Couldn't be because they eat the right kind of food rather than processed crap could it?

You've heard of beer goggles. Now there are food goggles:

http://www.theregist...mented_reality/

The article mentions that Japan has one of the lowest rates of adult obesity in the world. Couldn't be because they eat the right kind of food rather than processed crap could it?

Heh no...I'm sure there is scientific evidence that they are not human....or some such....particularly emanating from the US!

You've heard of beer goggles. Now there are food goggles:

http://www.theregist...mented_reality/

The article mentions that Japan has one of the lowest rates of adult obesity in the world. Couldn't be because they eat the right kind of food rather than processed crap could it?

If the poorer people there are living in less of an obesogenic environment, then yes that could indeed be a contributing factor to their lower obesity rates.

You've heard of beer goggles. Now there are food goggles:

http://www.theregist...mented_reality/

The article mentions that Japan has one of the lowest rates of adult obesity in the world. Couldn't be because they eat the right kind of food rather than processed crap could it?

If the poorer people there are living in less of an obesogenic environment, then yes that could indeed be a contributing factor to their lower obesity rates.

That made me laugh that comment JT...it reminds me of the Upstairs Downstairs TV programme in the UK.

The fat folks are all upstairs of course!

You've heard of beer goggles. Now there are food goggles:

http://www.theregist...mented_reality/

The article mentions that Japan has one of the lowest rates of adult obesity in the world. Couldn't be because they eat the right kind of food rather than processed crap could it?

If the poorer people there are living in less of an obesogenic environment, then yes that could indeed be a contributing factor to their lower obesity rates.

That made me laugh that comment JT...it reminds me of the Upstairs Downstairs TV programme in the UK.

The fat folks are all upstairs of course!

In advanced modern countries obesity rates are much higher among the poorer people, and much lower among the elites. Another clear evidence this is more than a personal choice issue -- it is a real SOCIAL issue.

You've heard of beer goggles. Now there are food goggles:

http://www.theregist...mented_reality/

The article mentions that Japan has one of the lowest rates of adult obesity in the world. Couldn't be because they eat the right kind of food rather than processed crap could it?

If the poorer people there are living in less of an obesogenic environment, then yes that could indeed be a contributing factor to their lower obesity rates.

That made me laugh that comment JT...it reminds me of the Upstairs Downstairs TV programme in the UK.

The fat folks are all upstairs of course!

In advanced modern countries obesity rates are much higher among the poorer people, and much lower among the elites. Another clear evidence this is more than a personal choice issue -- it is a real SOCIAL issue.

It's a financial issue. Crap food is cheap - good food is more expensive. Protein is more expensive than carbs.

It's a financial issue. Crap food is cheap - good food is more expensive. Protein is more expensive than carbs.

Financial issue/social issue, what's the difference? Most people can't afford to spend twice their daily earnings on organic vegetables.

It's a financial issue. Crap food is cheap - good food is more expensive. Protein is more expensive than carbs.

Financial issue/social issue, what's the difference? Most people can't afford to spend twice their daily earnings on organic vegetables.

Its an interesting thing this. I see more obesity in urban areas than rural. Availability and ease of fast food I suppose.

Plenty of poverty rurally here in the UK too.

It's a financial issue. Crap food is cheap - good food is more expensive. Protein is more expensive than carbs.

Financial issue/social issue, what's the difference? Most people can't afford to spend twice their daily earnings on organic vegetables.

Did you know that most if not all the gladiators that fought for the Roman Empire were vegetarian.

It's a financial issue. Crap food is cheap - good food is more expensive. Protein is more expensive than carbs.

Financial issue/social issue, what's the difference? Most people can't afford to spend twice their daily earnings on organic vegetables.

Did you know that most if not all the gladiators that fought for the Roman Empire were vegetarian.

No. I did not know that.

(especially for the poorer masses who don't have the choices of the elites),

I agree that very poor people may have less healthy choices due to financial limitations but you don't have to be one of the "elite" to be able to afford to eat healthy.

(especially for the poorer masses who don't have the choices of the elites),

I agree that very poor people may have less healthy choices due to financial limitations but you don't have to be one of the "elite" to be able to afford to eat healthy.

Yup....how much is a bunch of bananas or a few apples? Less than a takeaway pizza for sure!

Apples or bananas are OK for a snack, but most people are not going to live on them. It is a lot more work and more expensive to prepare healthy meals and especially for a family.

Apples or bananas are OK for a snack, but most people are not going to live on them. It is a lot more work and more expensive to prepare healthy meals and especially for a family.

I really don't think it is more expensive to prepare healthy meals.

Fresh fruit and veggies are nearly always cheaper per kilo than processed foods. You can buy seasonally. Dishes can be made that last more than one meal, or one pot dishes that last one meal.

Lower socio economic groups can afford fresh foods in western countries. They don't have to be organic vegetables as JT says, just veggies or fruit..

Meats like chicken and pork are very cheap, and you only need a little bit to enhance the taste and flavour of a dish. You really don't need a whopping great 500gram steak.

There is a time factor involved with preparation, but that can be managed.

I think a lot of the crap eating from lower socio economic groups comes from a lack of education about correct eating habits, and possibly a lack of motivation from many also.

An interesting article from the Sydney Morning Herald today

'The need to drink two litres of water on a regular basis is a complete myth'

Drinking eight glasses of water a day to lose weight and stay healthy is a myth, a Melbourne academic says.

Australian recommendations suggest an adequate daily fluid intake is about 2.8 litres for women and 3.4 litres for men.

However, this includes fluid found in food and beverages.

La Trobe University lecturer Spero Tsindos said people could get their daily fluid intake from fruit, vegetables, juices and even tea and coffee.

http://www.smh.com.a...0606-1zux3.html

It's a financial issue. Crap food is cheap - good food is more expensive. Protein is more expensive than carbs.

Financial issue/social issue, what's the difference? Most people can't afford to spend twice their daily earnings on organic vegetables.

Did you know that most if not all the gladiators that fought for the Roman Empire were vegetarian.

No. I did not know that.

And do you not want to know why?

Judging by emoticon used, probably not, but why do you not want to know?

And do you not want to know why?

Judging by emoticon used, probably not, but why do you not want to know?

Yes i would like to know why