Manchester United

[MrRed]

Also Madrids keepers late punch to Vidics head well after he had headed the ball was never mentioned, just as dangerous as nani's limp leg should have been a straight red for there keeper that.

It's OK to punch a player in the head that is not considered intentional because he went for the ball

that he missed and nearly knocked Vidic out is irrelevant .......sort of magnifies the Nani sending off even more doesn't it mate!

Edited March 6, 2013 by MrRed

[nev]

Also Madrids keepers late punch to Vidics head well after he had headed the ball was never mentioned, just as dangerous as nani's limp leg should have been a straight red for there keeper that.

It's OK to punch a player in the head that is not considered intentional because he went for the ball

that he missed and nearly knocked Vidic out is irrelevant .......sort of magnifies the Nani sending off even more doesn't it mate!

Yep it could have killed vidic and Roysten missed it too.

[nev]

Maybe this penalty could have been given

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=550165061682621&set=a.379247098774419.95259.379232632109199&type=1&theater

[StevieH]

"Nani was high and did catch Arbeloa but, as per the rulebook, it is hard to make any case that he was using" "excessive force or brutality against an opponent" when excessive force means "the player has far exceeded the necessary force and is in danger of injuring his opponent".

BBC.

redrus

i quoted fifa's laws on foul play earlier. nani's stud hit an opponent in the chest, intent not being mentioned in the laws. and he didn't "catch" him, he walloped him. how is that not in danger of injuring him let alone breaking his ribs? that bbc quote is very misleading. anyway.

[StevieH]

Serious question to the united fans, how good is Rooney now?

For such an important game it is the norm to play your superstars, but no Rodney. Does this mean he is on the decline?

he's still really, really good. i also really rate welbeck. madrid left 56m euro kaka on the bench last night, is that being given the same attention as ferguson not starting rooney?

[mrbojangles]

Maybe this penalty could have been given

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=550165061682621&set=a.379247098774419.95259.379232632109199&type=1&theater

Doubt it nev. If memory serves, that was the point where Wellbeck had already been flagged off-side.

[redrus]

Don't know if this has been posted yet, seen it a few times today, not sure whether on here or not.

redrus

Edited March 6, 2013 by redrus

[StevieH]

Maybe this penalty could have been given

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=550165061682621&set=a.379247098774419.95259.379232632109199&type=1&theater

yeah, clear foul that. i'd want that one given too. sad fact that shirt pulls never get given, probably because refs and linos have never played the game. plus it's at speed like but still.

[rijit]

Serious question to the united fans, how good is Rooney now?

For such an important game it is the norm to play your superstars, but no Rodney. Does this mean he is on the decline?

Here we go Rooney in decline thread

Ferguson and Phelan said t was a tactical decision which was working well until the sending off so i wouldn't read much into it also he has not played that much lately due to injuries so he needs more games also.Rooney is still a quality footballer.

I reckon he might be off Mr Red, whilst he still has enough quality that can command a decent transfer fee.

at exactly was that tactical decision?

In fact the tactics by Ferguson where spot on last night and the players did magnificent. Anything else i can help you with?

Red, it could be VV strongly argued that his tactics lost you the game ie the 15 mins after the 'red' where golden balls put kaka and modric on behind the strikers changed the shape, fergie left utd's the same and by the next change, rooney? you were losing and effectively lost it.

[mrbojangles]

Maybe this penalty could have been given

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=550165061682621&set=a.379247098774419.95259.379232632109199&type=1&theater

yeah, clear foul that. i'd want that one given too. sad fact that shirt pulls never get given, probably because refs and linos have never played the game. plus it's at speed like but still.

Stevie. Wellbeck had already been flagged off-side. These RAGS are trying all sorts now to try and dis-credit the ref.

[mrbojangles]

Don't know if this has been posted yet, seen it a few times today, not sure whether on here or not.

Russ, no matter how many times that pic is posted, it ain't gonna change the result mate. You need to get on a couch, think of nice things and let it go. It will eat at you from inside

[redrus]

Don't know if this has been posted yet, seen it a few times today, not sure whether on here or not.

Russ, no matter how many times that pic is posted, it ain't gonna change the result mate. You need to get on a couch, think of nice things and let it go. It will eat at you from inside

Haha, I'm not like that mate n you know it. I'm over it though, I do still like to discuss it, if thats ok with you my ol pal

redrus

Ps, Didi Hamman says it wasn't even a booking....

[redrus]

Ref justice?

Rob McNichol agrees that Manchester United's Nani should not have been sent off against Real Madrid, but also thinks Cuneyt Cakir was left with problems by the laws of the game...

I am not going to come before you and speculate on whether or not Manchester United deserve to be in the next round of the UEFA Champions League.

To suggest that Real Madrid would definitely not have scored in the 40 or so minutes that were played after what will surely be one of the most talked about moments of the season occurred, is frankly disrespectful to a wonderful football team. There is every chance Real could have won 2-1 anyway. There is also every chance United would have extended their lead by another goal or two. We shall never know.

There were also other matters in the game which I feel the referee didn't correctly identify. I thought Manchester United should have had a penalty for a trip on Danny Welbeck. I also thought Rafael handled the ball to block a shot which would have meant a spot kick to Madrid and maybe his own dismissal.

However, the dominant talking point is that Nani was sent off for a challenge on Alvaro Arbeloa, and this undoubtedly swung the game inexorably in Real Madrid's favour. So this is what we must tackle.

The Laws

A player is guilty of serious foul play if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when challenging for the ball when it is in play. Using excessive force means that the player has far exceeded the necessary use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent. Any player who lunges at an opponent when challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force and endangering the safety of an opponent, is guilty of serious foul play.

It is firstly very important to distinguish what Nani was sent off for. He was not dismissed for 'Violent Conduct'. Violent conduct is defined as an act when you are not challenging for the ball, which Nani clearly was.

He was sent off for 'Serious Foul Play', and to be dismissed for this you must "use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when challenging for the ball when it is in play."

Further to this, the law states: "A tackle that endangers the safety of an opponent must be sanctioned as serious foul play."

It is on this last point we must focus, and it is one of those annoyingly malleable phrases that exist in the Laws of the Game which you can massage to fit your point. I saw a challenge on Saturday where two people jumped for a header and clashed heads. They each could have had serious head injuries from that.

At Stoke, Peter Crouch swung a leg to scissor kick a ball and ended up kicking Matt Taylor in the face. Taylor was taken off after apparently losing consciousness temporarily: Crouch was not even booked. Did he endanger his opponent's safety? Sure he did. But he didn't mean it.

Did you hear an outcry from people demanding to know why Crouch wasn't punished? Did you even hear Sam Allardyce or anyone from West Ham asking why no action was taken? I didn't.

If you attempted to apply the exact sentence to the actual game of football you would barely get through a game without dismissing someone for it. Even this game, before Nani's exit, had the Madrid goalkeeper punching Vidic in the face. He came for a corner, missed, and punched Vidic right in the chops. So it's a penalty, right? And a red card! He could have knocked him out!

I'm of course being deliberately over the top. My point is that there is far more to a decision that the black and white text.

In many ways the wording of the Law is a nonsense. Take the phrase: "A tackle that endangers the safety of an opponent must be sanctioned as serious foul play" as noted above. Now compare it to:"Reckless" means that the player has acted with complete disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, his opponent. A player who plays in a reckless manner must be cautioned."

I can't see a lot of difference between the two items there and yet they emerge telling you two different things. Had the referee only cautioned Nani and then had to face people asking why he didn't send him off then he could still hide behind the law.

There are other things that referees are instructed to take note of - one of those being the matter of intent.

Above all, regarding Nani, I don't for a second believe that he meant to kick Arbeloa. What he did was reckless and dangerous and without doubt worthy of a caution, but he did not have any thought along the lines of 'I'm going to hurt someone here'. Not thinking about what you do and actually hurting someone is practically a definition of the word 'reckless.'

Even if referees - and refereeing bodies - feel that this sort of thing is worthy of dismissal, I honestly think they are missing a trick by not involving players in the discussion. You can tell by their body language that no Real Madrid players were expecting - nor demanding - a red card. Players think differently to referees - in fact they also think differently to fans - and they have an instinctive feel for fair play, for the most part. I feel certain that if 1,000 players were polled, from all corners of the earth, that at least 90 per cent would say this deserves a caution at most.

I'd turn the situation on its head. Had Nani not been sent off, I don't think I'd be typing this report defending the referee for not dismissing him under the weight of letters demanding to know why he wasn't sent off. You'd have forgotten it by now.

Phelan: We're distraught

Lastly, I have heard plenty of comments along the lines of 'Well, that's what you get for having a Turkish referee in charge.' I'm really not a fan of that borderline xenophobic type of comment, but I can amend it to create what I think is a realistic criticism and leads to a positive and creative solution.

I don't think the referee's nationality should make him inherently unable to do the job. It would be like saying that George Weah should never have played for a top club because Liberians aren't very good at football. Nonsense - if he's good enough, then sign him, pick him. His nationality in many ways is superfluous information.

What I will say is that, such as in this case, when two giants of world football meet, representing two of, if not the two strongest leagues in European football, it would be nice to have an official taking charge who is used to dealing with such games. The Turkish league is far from a mugs' league, but it is not among the top half a dozen in Europe in terms of quality.

To me the solution is not to only select referees from England or Spain or Italy or Germany or the like. I would instead like to see officials from all over Europe take part in exchange programmes where they can take charge of games in other country's domestic leagues.

This would not only allow elite referees from countries whose domestic football is not of the highest standard to improve their work, but also allow them to experience how different countries have their own footballing culture. It would widen their horizons and make them better at what they are clearly naturally good at.

I don't believe that, for the most part, referees will be able to take their game to the highest level - and there is no higher level than Manchester United v Real Madrid - without getting regular experience officiating at a high level.

There is no way either Jose Mourinho or Sir Alex Ferguson would have had a player on loan in the Austrian league all season then recalled them to play in this match. They may be a great player, but they wouldn't be up to speed under these conditions.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, on this night, neither was Cuneyt Cakir.

redrus

Edited March 6, 2013 by redrus

[StevieH]

Maybe this penalty could have been given

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=550165061682621&set=a.379247098774419.95259.379232632109199&type=1&theater

yeah, clear foul that. i'd want that one given too. sad fact that shirt pulls never get given, probably because refs and linos have never played the game. plus it's at speed like but still.

Stevie. Wellbeck had already been flagged off-side. These RAGS are trying all sorts now to try and dis-credit the ref.

boj if we're going to go that granular then van persie was offside in the build-up to united's OG. but hey, moot now.

[alfieconn]

what last nights game proved is we are not behind the two giants of Spain

And there's me thinking that Utd lost

You are f**cin embarrassing mate

Why's that red ?

[rijit]

what last nights game proved is we are not behind the two giants of Spain

And there's me thinking that Utd lost

You are f**cin embarrassing mate

Why's that red ?

Alfie, bad boy,u should know better, than winding the poor man up, specially when he's taking losing so badly.!!!!!!

[mjj]

Back in October I asked if the 2 offside goals against Chelsea last season at OT and the one at SB this season left the wins feeling hollow. And don't forget Torres being sent off for being fouled. The response I got was no. So, I'm happy that you guys are feeling hard done by.

But don't worry, I see you have drafted in Webb for the FA cup clash. Normal service will resume.....

The only reason Fergie is so miffed is that he knew this season with Barca faltering he had a great chance to win it. But he messed up from a winning position and United fell apart with 34 minutes remaining. His sulk by not talking to the press is childish and typical Fergie, just like after his loss to Bayern a couple of years ago.

Message to Fergie, 'Man up <deleted>.'

Edited March 7, 2013 by mjj

[JacknDanny]

Also Madrids keepers late punch to Vidics head well after he had headed the ball was never mentioned, just as dangerous as nani's limp leg should have been a straight red for there keeper that.

I agree, except for the fact the keeper didnt KICK Vidic in the head!!

You guys should read the rules of football. I know being a United fan, kind of exempts you from rules, as the ref normally just does as your players want him to. But the fould by Nani was dangerous play.

Personally I think the sending off was harsh, but understandable.

At that point, granted United were in control, but there was still a long way to go.

Credit to Mourinho for making the substitution when he did..... changed the game. I feel Ferguson could and should have made an immediate tactical change. But what I saw was United fall apart for about 15 minutes.

Anyway, swings and roundabouts.... its only a matter of time before Webb et al redress the balance and continue bailing you lot out

[MrRed]

Also Madrids keepers late punch to Vidics head well after he had headed the ball was never mentioned, just as dangerous as nani's limp leg should have been a straight red for there keeper that.

I agree, except for the fact the keeper didnt KICK Vidic in the head!!

You guys should read the rules of football. I know being a United fan, kind of exempts you from rules, as the ref normally just does as your players want him to. But the fould by Nani was dangerous play.

Personally I think the sending off was harsh, but understandable.

At that point, granted United were in control, but there was still a long way to go.

Credit to Mourinho for making the substitution when he did..... changed the game. I feel Ferguson could and should have made an immediate tactical change. But what I saw was United fall apart for about 15 minutes.

Anyway, swings and roundabouts.... its only a matter of time before Webb et al redress the balance and continue bailing you lot out

And it's only a matter of time for us to become Champions again!

[mjj]

Ha ha ha!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-21687292

[carmine]

Believe me, you have to be a Utd fan to look at him in any other way than a thoroughly unpleasant bullying prick of a man.

That simply isn't true. I'm no United fan but if people knew the half of what a decent bloke he can be off the pitch, they'd probably have a slightly less insulting (and vacuous) opinion.

That may be so but i wasn't talking about the man outside of football was i. I was describing his odious persona within the game.

And just because an opinion differs from yours doesn't necessarily make it insulting or vacuous just a different opinion. Mindyou seeing some of your opininions, if some of mine do differ and they are insulting and vacuous then so be it.

Your a bit a moody one these days arn't you. Anyone would think you lost again at the weekend! Or is it pent up frustrations about the forthcoming bitch slap handed out by Bayern?

Edited March 7, 2013 by carmine

[rixalex]

Really good game until the sending off,i thought the first half was engrossing and at moments end to end action and chances for both teams.

We had a game plan and defended very well you cannot do that at this level with a man down so the decision ruined the game and any chance United had.

Wellbeck has years ahead of him at the top for United and England and Rafeal gets better and stronger every game.

Good luck to Madrid.

Madrid would have equalized even with nani on the pitch, it may have gone to extra-time but I'm confident in saying Madrid would've won either way, they are the better team.

Madrid were the better team when they had one more man on the pitch than we did. Up until the sending off, a good 150 minutes into the tie, there was really nothing between the two teams, and Ronaldo had not ripped United apart, as you said he would. If you can't admit that and if you can't admit the sending off was a joke that heavily contributed to your win, you are obviously one of those sorts of fans with which anything remotely resembling an intelligent and respectful exchange of opinions is clearly impossible.

sorry who scored the winner?

Ronaldo used to play for us you'll recall. We know what it is for him to rip a team apart. Slotting home at the near post when the opposition is already down to ten men, winning goal or not, does not constitute "ripping a team apart". Thought he was generally kept pretty quiet throughout both legs.

[carmine]

Fergusons tactics were spot. i think Utd had Ronaldo contained as much as you can do. Raphael is such an improved player. He also did a decent job on Bale. I thought that Giggs was outstanding not only going forward but in his back tracking helping out the defense. Uts's best player on the night. That new contract was a no brainer i'd have thought

Edited March 7, 2013 by carmine

[rixalex]

oh shut up with the red card already, as a professional team (as I assume united are), they are trained to deal with 10 men, and even 9 men situations, if not then fergie is an idiot. they are professionals, so don't use this the card destroyed moral BS, pplluuueeaaseseeeee!!!

Hypothetically, supposing that Madrid was reduced to ten men at that point in the game that we were, do you seriously think that they would have gone on to win... and had they not, would you have seriously been on here today blaming Mourinho for the loss and for not being professional? Do me a favour...

Oh hell yes I would think they would've gone through had it been 10 vs 10, without a shadow of a doubt., I would blame the whole team and manager had they lost, not the ref, as Madrid should've won it at the bernabeu, they played rubbish and fell for fergie's ugly negative defensive football.

Who said anything about 10 vs 10? I was asking how Real Madrid would have coped 11 vs 10, had the ref made an absurd decision against one of their players at the same time in the game that he did it to us? Real Madrid would not have won and you wouldn't be on here blaming the manager or the team for the loss, you would be blaming it on United having had a massive helping hand by the ref, along with all the other ABUs.

[uptheos]

[Jayroo]

Serious question to the united fans, how good is Rooney now?

For such an important game it is the norm to play your superstars, but no Rodney. Does this mean he is on the decline?

Here we go Rooney in decline thread

Ferguson and Phelan said t was a tactical decision which was working well until the sending off so i wouldn't read much into it also he has not played that much lately due to injuries so he needs more games also.Rooney is still a quality footballer.

I reckon he might be off Mr Red, whilst he still has enough quality that can command a decent transfer fee.

What exactly was that tactical decision?

The tactical decision was he played Wellbeck behind Van Persie and to nullify Alonso which he did very well and used the pace of Wellbeck to counter when United attacked which he also did very well until the referee intervened.

In fact the tactics by Ferguson where spot on last night and the players did magnificent. Anything else i can help you with?

yeah, if they did so well then why didn't they score? are you sure you were watching the right game? just incase, Madrid were wearing their away strip all in black, and united were in red with white shorts...same game?

[Jayroo]

I think Ronaldo summed it up quite well when asked about the red card, he said, I don't want to comment too much, but this is football and these things do happen, so we have to get on with the game. He's absolutely right...Just get on with it....United only have themselves to blame, not the ref...

Edited March 7, 2013 by Jayroo

[alfieconn]

Its never over when Utd lose, especially if there's a decision that doesn't go there way, expect this to carry on for about another week .

Bit like songkran really, the first day ain't too bad then it just gets tedious

Edited March 7, 2013 by alfieconn

[JacknDanny]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2289282/This-terrible-trend-demonising-referees-like-Cuneyt-Cakir-stop-Graham-Poll.html

Here you go guys. An ex referees perspective.

I particularly like the bit that says........... " That prompted me to contact some current top international
referees, all of whom felt Cakir was correct."

So not so hard done by, according to the letter of the law.

Next

[rixalex]

Also Madrids keepers late punch to Vidics head well after he had headed the ball was never mentioned, just as dangerous as nani's limp leg should have been a straight red for there keeper that.

I agree, except for the fact the keeper didnt KICK Vidic in the head!!

You guys should read the rules of football. I know being a United fan, kind of exempts you from rules, as the ref normally just does as your players want him to. But the fould by Nani was dangerous play.

Personally I think the sending off was harsh, but understandable.

At that point, granted United were in control, but there was still a long way to go.

Credit to Mourinho for making the substitution when he did..... changed the game. I feel Ferguson could and should have made an immediate tactical change. But what I saw was United fall apart for about 15 minutes.

Anyway, swings and roundabouts.... its only a matter of time before Webb et al redress the balance and continue bailing you lot out

Kicking in the head not ok, punching in the head no problem?

The fact is, if raising your leg to take down a high ball, as Nani did, now constitutes a red card because it is deemed potentially dangerous, refs will be giving out red cards by the handful every game. Take for example all the times when the striker runs for a loose ball to hit it in the net at the same time as the keeper comes flying out to dive at the ball. Invariably that sort of incident either results in the striker just getting to the ball before the keeper and scoring, or it results in them arriving at the ball at the same time and the keeper getting a foot in the midriff. No malice perhaps, but potentially dangerous, sure it is. Red card then.

Going to get the stage when nobody will dare any sort of contact. Pretty much got that way already in terms of play in the box because of all the diving that goes on. Players may as well start wearing blouses.

Regarding what happened after the sending off, and the way we as a team coped with it, i think on reflection you are quite right Jack. I think everyone was in a state of shock to be honest, and was concentrating more on what the <deleted> just happened, rather than concentrating on defending for our lives. That said, Modric's goal wasn't really the result of our defense falling apart, it was the result of a great bit of skill that when you are a man down, is always going to be hard to prevent. Same with the second goal really. A great ball in. You can't expect to sit back and soak up the pressure against a team like Real, and not have a problem, well at least not for more than five minutes or so. We had a good half an hour to cope, and i just don't think it was going to happen, no matter what subs were made. Same goes for Madrid, had we had one more man on the pitch than them, and had they been trying to get their heads around a terrible injustice, they wouldn't have won. Anyone who says that they are a bunch of elite professionals that would have simply taken the decision on the chin and gone on to win is talking garbage. Don't buy it for a second. Any team would have been rocked as we were, by what suddenly unfolded. Human nature.