Using Concrete Nails

[thaibeachlovers]

Every time I try to nail something into concrete the concrete breaks off, leaving an unsightly hole too big for the nail, yet I see many examples of them being used successfully eg the cable clips for electric wire in Thai houses.

Is there some sort of special technique that I don't know about?

[Daffy D]

The trick is you have to hit them HARD - No good trying to tap them in like you would with wood.

Problem with that is if you are off center with the hammer the nails are likely to fly out and kill you.

If you are nailing up for example wooden batons with the nail already in the baton you can confidently hit the nail HARD as the baton will hold the nail and keep it straight.

If you are just trying to get a nail in the wall you can if the nail is long enough put it through a piece of wood first then after it is securely in the wall chip off the wood.

If you are using those little nails hold them round the shank with a pair of pliers so you don't smash your fingers.

[glassdude007]

drill a pilot hole first with a small masonay bit..

works fine

[electau]

Those small nails for cable clips are all right for plaster, but not to drive into concrete. Concrete requires a hardened steel nail.

You could consider PVC duct with clip on lid, and drill holes using a masonary drill and a wall plug, a lot quicker for surface wiring. Use a battery hammer drill for the drilling of holes in the concrete.

[Pib]

The trick is you have to hit them HARD - No good trying to tap them in like you would with wood.

Problem with that is if you are off center with the hammer the nails are likely to fly out and kill you.

If you are nailing up for example wooden batons with the nail already in the baton you can confidently hit the nail HARD as the baton will hold the nail and keep it straight.

If you are just trying to get a nail in the wall you can if the nail is long enough put it through a piece of wood first then after it is securely in the wall chip off the wood.

If you are using those little nails hold them round the shank with a pair of pliers so you don't smash your fingers.

Ditto to above...especially using needle nose pliers to hold the nail. Hit the nail hard!!!

And the hammer striking surface needs to be "flat" as possible for better results; on many hammers the head striking surface is slightly rounded/curved which increases the changes of a glancing blow that increases the chances of the nail chipping-out the concrete.

[canuckamuck]

The trick is you have to hit them HARD - No good trying to tap them in like you would with wood.

Problem with that is if you are off center with the hammer the nails are likely to fly out and kill you.

If you are nailing up for example wooden batons with the nail already in the baton you can confidently hit the nail HARD as the baton will hold the nail and keep it straight.

If you are just trying to get a nail in the wall you can if the nail is long enough put it through a piece of wood first then after it is securely in the wall chip off the wood.

If you are using those little nails hold them round the shank with a pair of pliers so you don't smash your fingers.

I just learned those lessons this week, I agree with your advice.

[sirineou]

I work in the concrete industry and drive hundreds of concrete nails every week So....

The pilot hole idea suggested earlier is so far the best, especially when the concrete is old.

This is what we do....

we drill a 3/16 inch hole very easy and fast to do with an impact drill

,in the hole insert one or two pieces of tie wire about 3-4 inch long,sticking out of the hole by about 1/2 inch ,

bend the piece of the wire that sticks out of the hole against the wall so that the wire does not fall in the hole,

drive a 16 penny nail in the hole with the wire.

the nail mashes the wire against the wall of the hole and creates a very strong bond,

this technique works with any combination of drill and nail as long as the hole is not too big for the nail, the diameter of the hole must be smaller than the diameter of the nail

we use this combination because we work with heavy components, and always have 16 penny double head nails available.

Edited June 18, 2012 by sirineou

[canuckamuck]

16 penny? a 3.5 inch nail is a bit excessive for wiring. But the OP wasn't clear what he was trying to do with the nails.

[sirineou]

16 penny? a 3.5 inch nail is a bit excessive for wiring. But the OP wasn't clear what he was trying to do with the nails.

as I said in my reply,

we use this combination because we work with heavy components, and always have 16 penny double head nails available.

and also said:

this technique works with any combination of drill and nail as long as the hole is not too big for the nail, the diameter of the hole must be smaller than the diameter of the nail

As long as the ratio of hole to nail is maintain, most size nails will work, very small nails don't work because they will bend before they mush the wire,

Trust me when I say, this system works well, it is not theory it is something that I and others have done thousands of times.

[canuckamuck]

16 penny? a 3.5 inch nail is a bit excessive for wiring. But the OP wasn't clear what he was trying to do with the nails.

as I said in my reply,

we use this combination because we work with heavy components, and always have 16 penny double head nails available.

and also said:

this technique works with any combination of drill and nail as long as the hole is not too big for the nail, the diameter of the hole must be smaller than the diameter of the nail

As long as the ratio of hole to nail is maintain, most size nails will work, very small nails don't work because they will bend before they mush the wire,

Trust me when I say, this system works well, it is not theory it is something that I and others have done thousands of times.

Thanks for clarifying, it's a good tip.

[David48]

These sub-Forums are the strength of Thai Visa ...

Thanks for that tip sirineou ... I learnt something today.

I always pilot drill into the hard stuff and have used the ends of matchsticks in wooden screw holes when the tread has stripped but not thought about wire in the way you have used it.

For easy in for wood screws, if you have an old cake of soap and it's a bit damp, lightly drag the screw across and then into the timber and it goes in much easier. Oil works of course but it's messier and the soap sticks rather then drips like the oil can.

[lopburi3]

I have lived without nails for the last 40 years. Hammer drill/masonry bit/plug/screw works will for normal houshold photo hanging type applications. In most homes here you do not know from one point to another how hard you need to hit a nail or powder charge to use if using gun. Drilling/plug/screw works anywhere.

And a lot easier to remove when the boss has a new master plan.

[thaibeachlovers]

Thanks to all.

Yes, I should have said what I was wanting to nail. It's the small cable clip nails- too small to use a drill first. I see them all over the place done perfectly by Thais, but as I said, they always just make a mess when I do it.

I have been using a drill and inserting the smallest size plastic rawl plugs and a very small screw to replace the nail, but it's a lot of extra work and makes a lot of dust.

[Kwasaki]

Thanks to all.

Yes, I should have said what I was wanting to nail. It's the small cable clip nails- too small to use a drill first. I see them all over the place done perfectly by Thais, but as I said, they always just make a mess when I do it.

I have been using a drill and inserting the smallest size plastic rawl plugs and a very small screw to replace the nail, but it's a lot of extra work and makes a lot of dust.

When drilling have the vacuum cleaner small nozzle just under the masonry bit when drilling works a treat no mess.

[Daffy D]

As "electau" said those small cable clip nails are no good for concrete but they do work on that cement rendering they skim the walls with.

You have to get the right nails. There are ones for wood and ones for concrete, they look the same but you'll soon know if you have the right ones as the wood ones will just curl up when you try to hit them into the wall.

The trick to using those bend round cable clips is to prepare each one by placing a nail through the hole and bending over the shorter end, with the hole in it, over the nail head to hold it in place, you then use the longer end to hold the clip in place to tap it in the wall.

If you have a big job preparing the cable clips this way is a bit tedious and should be delegated to the wife or kids.

[thaibeachlovers]

Thanks guys.

[David48]

Maybe ask one of the sparkies here, Crossy for example.

Is this (or similar) what you mean ...

[electau]

Maybe ask one of the sparkies here, Crossy for example.

Is this (or similar) what you mean ...

Clipsal is one of the suppliers of these cable fastenings, they replaced the aluminium and brass cable clips about 30 years ago. Surface wiring is now in PVC duct or concealed in cavity walls.

[Crossy]

Maybe ask one of the sparkies here, Crossy for example.

Is this (or similar) what you mean ...

Clipsal is one of the suppliers of these cable fastenings, they replaced the aluminium and brass cable clips about 30 years ago. Surface wiring is now in PVC duct or concealed in cavity walls.

Except in sunny Thailand where buckle clips are still readily available, the plastic/nail clips are a rare beast indeed.

These:-

[regedit]

The only plastic clips I've seen here are white and curved, suitable for tv coax cable.

Thanks for the tips above re fitting the cable ties to cement/rendering - it's always puzzeled me how the Thai's managed to do a neat job of it when I'd just ended up with bent nails and chips missing off the wall like the OP.

[tutsiwarrior]

I'd say just watch when an electrician intalls the power cabling on an external wall with the associated clips...no special equipment is required just simply 'a technique'...I watched once when the wiring was done in our house 10 years ago and was amazed and the fixing remains solid to this day...

the electrician didn't have it so good as he had untreated diabetes and died last year...a young man with a family...

[transam]

Thanks to all.

Yes, I should have said what I was wanting to nail. It's the small cable clip nails- too small to use a drill first. I see them all over the place done perfectly by Thais, but as I said, they always just make a mess when I do it.

I have been using a drill and inserting the smallest size plastic rawl plugs and a very small screw to replace the nail, but it's a lot of extra work and makes a lot of dust.

When drilling have the vacuum cleaner small nozzle just under the masonry bit when drilling works a treat no mess.

I, get a Tescos plastic bag and tape it just under the drill point. Crap falls into the bag . NO NEED for wifey talking crap with the Hoover.

[lopburi3]

And you expect the dust to fall into the bag? It does in every direction without a vacuum pulling it in.

As said by Crossy aluminium straps are the normal surface holding system in Thailand and easily painted over making almost invisible. Have never seen those ugly plastic type holders used here and hope I never do. Perhaps more useful for wood construction or concealed areas. For coax have seen and used but found they do not last long (plastic becomes brittle and breaks - if you manage to set without hitting/breaking with hammer). PVC stick-on duct is widely used now but needs more than sticky tape to last.

[wayned]

I used PVC channels that are available in many sizes to wire my house 12 years ago. Attached to wall by drilling holes in wall, inserting plastic fillers and attaching with 8x1" flat head screws about every 18 inches. Painted same as wall and still is in place looks good 12 years later. I still occasionally try to use the clips like the Thai's use but only end up with smashed fingers and chipped walls

[David006]

I work in the concrete industry and drive hundreds of concrete nails every week So....

The pilot hole idea suggested earlier is so far the best, especially when the concrete is old.

This is what we do....

we drill a 3/16 inch hole very easy and fast to do with an impact drill

,in the hole insert one or two pieces of tie wire about 3-4 inch long,sticking out of the hole by about 1/2 inch ,

bend the piece of the wire that sticks out of the hole against the wall so that the wire does not fall in the hole,

drive a 16 penny nail in the hole with the wire.

the nail mashes the wire against the wall of the hole and creates a very strong bond,

this technique works with any combination of drill and nail as long as the hole is not too big for the nail, the diameter of the hole must be smaller than the diameter of the nail

we use this combination because we work with heavy components, and always have 16 penny double head nails available.

Excellent stuff mate...been doing the same for years when committing DIY. Sometimes use bamboo and screws or nails... like those old fiber Rawl plugs ...

The problem with concrete nails is exacerbated with old concrete for sure...nearly killed myself with a shotgun nailer in my old basement years ago..gave up and used construction glue for gyproc battens ....when I got back from ER....lol

[wayned]

Why go to all of the trouble to drill a pilot hole to permanently set a concrete nail. Drill the correct size hole and use a concrete anchor, either plastic, wood or metal. and use a screw or bolt to fasten what you want to the concrete. It's easy and can be removed in the future without a lot of trouble. Unless, of course, you don't have the correct hardware

[glassdude007]

Why go to all of the trouble to drill a pilot hole to permanently set a concrete nail. Drill the correct size hole and use a concrete anchor, either plastic, wood or metal. and use a screw or bolt to fasten what you want to the concrete. It's easy and can be removed in the future without a lot of trouble. Unless, of course, you don't have the correct hardware

Nails are cheaper maybe???

Mai Loo

[tutsiwarrior]

I used PVC channels that are available in many sizes to wire my house 12 years ago. Attached to wall by drilling holes in wall, inserting plastic fillers and attaching with 8x1" flat head screws about every 18 inches. Painted same as wall and still is in place looks good 12 years later. I still occasionally try to use the clips like the Thai's use but only end up with smashed fingers and chipped walls

the trick is to get the conduits to fix to the surface...we tried that once and the ceiling conduits kept falling off and we then went back to the clips...

[thaibeachlovers]

Maybe ask one of the sparkies here, Crossy for example.

Is this (or similar) what you mean ...

Yes indeed, but they're hard to find.

The local shops of course have all the metal strip cable clips, but the small nails they sell with them won't work in concrete for me, hence this thread.

[wayned]

I used PVC channels that are available in many sizes to wire my house 12 years ago. Attached to wall by drilling holes in wall, inserting plastic fillers and attaching with 8x1" flat head screws about every 18 inches. Painted same as wall and still is in place looks good 12 years later. I still occasionally try to use the clips like the Thai's use but only end up with smashed fingers and chipped walls

the trick is to get the conduits to fix to the surface...we tried that once and the ceiling conduits kept falling off and we then went back to the clips...

If they conduits are properly attached with screws as I suggested, I don't see how they could fall down. If you rely on the tape that id attached to some conduits I can see the problem, especially if the surface is not smooth. As far as cost, I buy the plastic hole fillers for 60 baht/100.