Canadian Sisters Died In Thailand From Drinking Cocktail That Contained Insect Repellent

[jerrysteve]

I had no idea that any bar would make such a drink that could kill. There must be a way for the police to check which bars produce that

that kind of drink and shut them down. The resutls took a rather long time.

It is obvious that there must be 100s of bars that serve this concoction. I will stick with my favorite...gin n tonic (absolute of course)

with a lemon or lime twist.

Edited September 1, 2012 by jerrysteve

[NomadJoe]

I've seen people do some pretty strange things to get high, but drinking DEET was not one of them. That crap in banned in the US because it is so toxic. The girls probably never knew what they were drinking. So sad.

You're thinking of DDT (dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane). DDT has been banned in the states and many other places since the 70's. Entirely different than DEET (N,N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide) which is still commonly found in most spray and cream mosquito repellent both here, in the states, and elsewhere. I used to sell all natural mosquito repellents and used the potential negative effects of DEET as a selling point, but in reality if used properly it's a fairly innocuous chemical. The safety of everyday long term use is in question as DEET has shown to caused neurological problems in rats when used in high concentrations over time. I prefer DEET over citronella because of it's effectiveness. Mixing it in drinks is incredibly crazy and stupid. Exactly the kind of thing I would expect kids to do at a full moon party.

"Most experts agree that for adequate protection, adults need no more than 10% to 30% DEET, found in most OFF!, Cutter and Repel products. As a rule, the more DEET a repellent has, the longer it lasts, but one with 30% DEET can last up to six hours. Bug sprays such as Ben's 100 or Repel 100, with up to 100% DEET, are generally advisable only in such heavily infested areas as Alaska or the Florida Everglades"

http://www.time.com/...,267776,00.html

I had no idea that any bar would make such a drink that could kill. There must be a way for the police to check which bars produce that

that kind of drink and shut them down. The resutls took a rather long time.

It's not sold by a bar. Buckets are sold with unopened beverages which the buyer mixes themselves. The DEET is bought at 7 and mixed into the drinks by the drinkers.

Edited September 1, 2012 by NomadJoe

[Gone]

In my opinion most people who go to these full moon parties hear about it from back home. Most are young like these poor girls and go to Phi Phi knowing that just about anything goes. These "Bucket" concoction are well known for being swamp water (mixed with just about anything, mushrooms, ice etc)

Once people get high on hallucinogens, their "thinking" is way out there. I think that these girls met some boys who wanted to get lucky and thought if they ad a little DEET to the girls drinks that the girls would just pass out and they could do their dirty DEEDs.

It is either that or one of the booths that sell these buckets just went overboard and aded too much.

Either way if they could only find where or who they got these drinks from, those people should be charged with 1st degree murder.

[asiawatcher]

As correctly pointed out - some bar/worker mixed this so what is bring done to bring that/those person/s to justice? If TAT is worried about their image think about it... sex at every corner, for any taste, bike accidents, murders, airport and jet ski scams, and of course let's not forget the drug cocktails of the Full Moon Parties et al. Police able to be bought off, Jekyll n' Hide respectful Thai's behind the wheel and on it goes. Yep... er did I leave anything out? Land of Smiles - always only when you don't have answers, just smile and ignore the issues.

[Kerryd]

It is extremely unlikely they died from from using too much insect repellent (containing DEET). The stuff we used to get in the military was 40% DEET by volume. We used it ALL the time, as it was not only good for keeping the mosquitoes away, it was excellent for helping remove the thick, greasy camouflage paint we used back in those days (early 80's). I'm sure we would have had a number of deaths from DEET exposure if it was that deadly that slathering it on for a couple of days would be enough to kill you.

And from personal experience, having had the stuff get into my eyes and mouth far too often, it wasn't pleasant at all. I recall it was more of mild burning sensation and I seem to recall it would make my lips/tongue feel a bit numb as well. Nowhere near as much as Novocaine, and the taste was bad enough to make sure you didn't want to try ingesting it on purpose.

However, the taste could be diluted and probably wouldn't be anymore noticeable (or even less noticeable) that taking "Prairie Fire" shots (tequila and Tabasco sauce).

As for mosquito coils, the Thai brand I'm holding right now (Baygon, manufactured by Johnson "A Family Company") apparently contains .03% w/w of

D-Allethrin:

D-Allethrin is a Pyrethroid compound.

Report a Poisoning

Symptoms of Poisoning with Pyrethroid Compounds

Find Products Containing this Chemical

- Irritation of skin and eyes.

- Irritability to sound or touch, abnormal facial sensation, sensation of prickling, tingling or creeping on skin, numbness.

- Headache, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, excessive salivation, fatigue.

- In severe cases: fluid in the lungs and muscle twitching may develop. Seizures may occur and are more common with more toxic cyano-pyrethroids.

Note: there is a disclaimer that:

There may be other diseases and chemicals that have similar symptoms.

The (oral) LD50 for D-Allethrin is 1320 mg/kg in rats.Now, remember that the LD50 is based on 100% D-Allethrin, while my brand of coils contain .3%. So math whizzes, how many coils containing .3% D-Allethrin would be needed to equal 1,320 mgs and multiply that by the estimated weight of the girls (at least 50 kgs each though more like 60-65 'cause they appear larger than my 49kg sweetie standing next to me).

No idea if these results are accurate:

I don't know how much each coil weighs unfortunately, but the whole pack of 12 coils only weighs what, 8 ounces (225 grams) ? Make it 240 grams, so that each coil would equal (approx) 20 grams.(20,000 mgs). 20,000 x .3 = 6,000mg of D-Allethrin per coil (?) (I'm just estimating the weight.)

So, 1320mg times (estimated) 60 kg body weight = 79,200mg needed to hit the LD50. That would equal just over 13 coils if my unscientific calculations are even close.

Well. I guess if someone were to grind up a whole box of coils (and maybe throw in a couple extras), and feed it to someone straight, there is a 50% chance they'd die.

Of course, for 2 people they'd have to grind up 2 boxes to get enough D-Allethrin for an LD50. Not to mention it would have to be mixed (diluted) with other things to make it drinkable, so now we'd be talking what, 4-5 boxes (48-60 coils) ground up, mixed with booze and who knows what else, in order to get enough D-Allethrin to have a 50% chance of killing 2 people ?

Note regarding the LD50, some people are potentially more susceptible to being affected while others could in fact consume substantially more without effect. So it could be possible that many people were drinking a "coil cocktail" and the 2 girls just happened to be more susceptible to the contents, while others drinking the exact same thing may not even notice the effects.

I do wonder why it will take "months" for the Quebec coroner's office to get the toxicology reports back. Are they that seriously swamped/understaffed/under-equipped that it could take months to do the tests ? The case is probably a low priority for them. By the time they get any results, it may well be too late to do anything any ways. The way people move around here, the bar and hotel could have a number of different owners and changes in staff and no one will know/remember anything.

[LomSak27]

Chooka relax, it's not a problem

But VIJER

so you think they made it in their rooms or something ?? or had a clue what was in it .... Huh What ?

It is interesting that this suddenly comes out now - did their tests just come back or did they choose this moment to release it? interesting

[softgeorge]

The pyrethrins are a pair of natural organic compunds normally derived from Chrysanthemum cinerariaefolium that have potent insecticidal activity. Pyrethrins are neurotoxins.

So pyrethrins is deet? ground mozzie coils are DEET?

And Chooka before you bang your drum and the I Told You So Chorus joins in with what those misguided youth wont do, how do you know that they asked for anything more than a good cocktail.?

Right you don't

PS for those of us who avoid speculation of Leo dwellers, we never saw that post - about mozzie coils, nor saw the attacks on it. Get that chip off your shoulder

My deepest appologies, I never intended to offend you or even direct my coment to you or any person in particular. All I was saying was that some became insulting and suggested that those that mentioned that thier drinks may have been spiked in another thread were labled nutters with conspiricy theories by those that were more educated and informed. I never infered in anyway that they asked for anything nor did I point any blame towards any person/s.

Again my deepest appologies and if a moderator is available I would request that they remove my post at #3 as it appears offensive to some. To all that found it offensive my deepest and sincire appologies.

I see no malice in your post towards anyone or any reason to appologise. You just have to watch your words on here because some may truely believe that you are refering to them even if you are not. cheers

[NomadJoe]

It is extremely unlikely they died from from using too much insect repellent (containing DEET). The stuff we used to get in the military was 40% DEET by volume. We used it ALL the time, as it was not only good for keeping the mosquitoes away, it was excellent for helping remove the thick, greasy camouflage paint we used back in those days (early 80's). I'm sure we would have had a number of deaths from DEET exposure if it was that deadly that slathering it on for a couple of days would be enough to kill you.

Kerry you can not compare the subcutaneous absorption of an insecticide through the skin with ingestion (the swallowing) of an insecticide. Two completely different processes. Even getting a little in your mouth (sublingual) you will get very little effect of a drug when compared to ingesting large amounts as it appears these girls did.

[tragickingdom]

Which might accidentally also the cause of the earlier reported deaths? A big public "Sorry" to the tourists that they accused earlier on will probably never come.

[jomtienbob]

Symptoms

For pyrethrins:

• Breathing difficulty
  
• Coughing
  
• Loss of alertness due to imbalance in oxygen level
  
• Tremors (if a large amount is swallowed)
  
• Seizures (if a large amount is swallowed)
  
• Upset stomach
  
• Vomiting
  

http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/002763.htm

ok but what quantity ingested is lethal in a female adult

A bucket cocktail for 200thb could do it maybe

A quick google shows that around 2gm's/kg is lethal to rats, so if use this as a base number, both girls, if one assumes a 50kg body weight had to comsume 100gms each....that's a h*ll of a lot of DEET in a drink, even in a bucket

But remember there are a multitude of catalysts that can exponentially multiply the ramifications of the primary active (DEET) so the initial findings are only that. It certainly sounds like the locals need a shakeup serving these home made cocktails in bars, but don't expect western style response here. Mai Pben Rai rules.

[impulse]

First off, I doubt any of us know what Deet tastes like.

Any kid from the '60s in the USA that has had OFF sprayed on by parents knows exactly what DEET tastes like. (Probably the 70's, 80's and 90's, but by then I was spraying on my own OFF without Mommy's bad aim) I've also tasted it hundreds of times when fishing and sweaty and it runs into the corners of my mouth.

I can't describe it, but it's pretty unmistakable and very bitter. You have no doubt that you've just tasted it.

Being as DDT is banned, and that would be a little hard to come by. Unless there were residues in the soil or food and they ate tons of soil or unwashed vegetables.

DDT is banned in the USA. It may be banned in other places, but it’s apparently widely used- because it works. In some situations, getting rid of insects right now is more important than the long term effects of DDT in the environment. If I were in the middle of a yellow fever epidemic, I wouldn't really care if the eagle eggs would be a little thin in 5 or 10 years.

[spidermike007]

Symptoms

For pyrethrins:

• Breathing difficulty
  
• Coughing
  
• Loss of alertness due to imbalance in oxygen level
  
• Tremors (if a large amount is swallowed)
  
• Seizures (if a large amount is swallowed)
  
• Upset stomach
  
• Vomiting
  

http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/002763.htm

ok but what quantity ingested is lethal in a female adult

A bucket cocktail for 200thb could do it maybe

A quick google shows that around 2gm's/kg is lethal to rats, so if use this as a base number, both girls, if one assumes a 50kg body weight had to comsume 100gms each....that's a h*ll of a lot of DEET in a drink, even in a bucket

Yes, precisely. The Thai authorities certainly have ALOT of incentive, to figure out a way to not take fault for their deaths, on any level. The drug, cocktail angle allows them to do exactly that. I am not saying this was the case, but it does seem awful convenient, does it not? It was their fault. They were partying. Not the fault of the hotel, restaurant, or a local who may have poisoned them. Only the fault of the fareng. Where have we heard that one before? We all know that the Thai people are fabulously skillful at deflecting blame. Actually, it can be said to be one of their top assets.

[fareastguy]

1. 
   I stick to bottled beer but even that here in Thailand can get spiked with sleeping pills
   [/quote]
   So do I, but I take the extra precaution of watching them take the top off, & if I have to go for a pee I take the bottle with me!!
   better to be safe than dead!!!
   

[Arkady]

I hope that someone goes to prison for this. These girls were too young to die like this. Knowing that this is Thailand, I kind of doubt it though.

I hope so too but what is the correct age to die like this?

[smotherb]

It's so sad that teens are finding new ways to get high. It is happening all over the world kids experimenting

Yes, and kids will continue to experiment as long as there are kids. Seems to make legalizing drugs more defensible, if standards can be maintained and access regulated. Doing so would not only do away with much of the criminal profit associated with drugs, but would help ensure regulation of the purity of the substances. Of course, an overdose of just about anything can kill you.

So, education on drugs, alcohol, or any other substance du jour which is supposed to 'enlighten' you, and its potential effect on the ingestee is a primary consideration. The problem; however, is timeless. As is stated in the old adage, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink--or my favorite variation thereto: you can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think.

[smotherb]

who the hell is writing these reports,police hunt for 2 portuguese who where drinking with the sisters,now they say it was 2 brazilians.

Perhaps because both nationalities speak Portuguese

[webfact]

DEET in lethal 'party cocktail' killed Canadian sisters: Autopsy

Phuket Gazette

Autopsy results have revealed that Quebec sisters Audrey, 20, and Noemi, 25, died from ingesting DEET as part of a drug cocktail called '4 x 100'. Photo: Handout image

PHUKET: -- Krabi Provincial Police are now investigating where Canadian sisters Audrey and Noemi Belanger were possibly given a lethal cocktail containing kratom leaves and cough syrup, which may also have contained the insect repellent compound DEET.

The sisters, 20-year-old Audrey and Noemi, 25, from Quebec, were found dead in their hotel room on Phi Phi Island on June 15. Police initially suspected food poisoning.

The news today comes after CBC’s French-language news network reported that autopsies on the sisters’ bodies revealed that the women had ingested a “cocktail” known throughout Thailand as “4 x 100” (Four times one hundred).

Although 4 x 100 is not considered lethal when made using the usual ingredients of kratom leaf extract, cough syrup, cola and ice, the addition of DEET may have introduced tragic consequences.

Col Boontavee Tohraksa, Deputy Superintendent of Krabi Provincial Police and leading investigator in the Belanger case, told the Phuket Gazette this morning, “I have been informed of the autopsy results… We will continue our investigation and collect more evidence.”

He added that police have requested assistance from the relevant embassies involved, to gain access to the two male tourists who were seen drinking with the two sisters, and recorded on CCTV carrying them back to their hotel room on June 13.

It was the last time Audrey and Noemi were seen alive.

Col Boontavee declined to reveal any further details of the case, saying that the Canadian embassy in Bangkok had requested that police be “discrete” in their work and to report their findings directly to embassy officials.

Barbara Harvey, Spokesperson for the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, in Ottawa, told the Phuket Gazette, “Canadian consular officials in Bangkok and in Canada have provided consular assistance to the family, and our officials are in contact with authorities both in Thailand and Canada and will continue to liaise closely with them.

“Out of respect for the family and to protect the privacy of the individuals concerned, further details on this case cannot be released.”

Source: http://www.phuketgaz...opsy-16811.html

-- Phuket Gazette 2012-09-01

[jamstock]

The report says they had DEET in their body. That doesn't mean the DEET came from a drink, that is them theorizing, and conveniently that explanation absolves anyone of blame. If their guesthouse room been sprayed with toxic chemicals and they contained DEET then it would also be in their bodies. I would think if people were regularly pouring DEET in to drinks, and it were capable of doing what happeend to these two girls, that people would be dropping dead left and right

Totally agree. Why are people so quick to believe these "official" reports? These girls probably used DEET on their skins to repel mosquitoes, and this would be absorbed into the bloodstream, and be detectable in their bodies after death. I doubt it was DEET was the cause otherwise a lot more people would be dying.

[sysardman]

I've seen people do some pretty strange things to get high, but drinking DEET was not one of them. That crap in banned in the US because it is so toxic. The girls probably never knew what they were drinking. So sad.

Well I've been defending DEET on another thread and I will point out that is is safe when used as the manufacturers recommendations (not include drinking). It is not banned in the USA or any other place that I know of it is just subject to health risk warnings as is any other legal chemical substance.

RIP girls - very tragic.

[travelmann]

I had no idea that any bar would make such a drink that could kill. There must be a way for the police to check which bars produce that

that kind of drink and shut them down. The resutls took a rather long time.

It is obvious that there must be 100s of bars that serve this concoction. I will stick with my favorite...gin n tonic (absolute of course)

with a lemon or lime twist.

Drink enough alcohol it will kill you and thats perfectly legal......................I thank the day I tried some and found all alcohol disgusting.

[sysardman]

Symptoms

For pyrethrins:

• Breathing difficulty
  
• Coughing
  
• Loss of alertness due to imbalance in oxygen level
  
• Tremors (if a large amount is swallowed)
  
• Seizures (if a large amount is swallowed)
  
• Upset stomach
  
• Vomiting
  

http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/002763.htm

Again, as with DEET, fly killers (pyrethrins) it is recommended to spray in a well ventilated, unoccupied room and leave until dispersed. Petrol will kill you if you drink it but most people understand this and are not stupid enough to drink it (well most people). It's like this forum most people don't bother reading many posts and likewise don't read instructions on containers.

Edited September 1, 2012 by sysardman

[dannyman]

soutpeel your such a google genius !

[jomtienbob]

Yes the pathologists haven't considered Scopolamine ! it is the most logical connection and is often confused with DEET in tests.

It also makes the south american connection very plausible. just check it out, it makes sense....

[joboss]

Look I'm NOT saying that this is the case.....but consider the possibility.

Here we have two relatively young girls out on their first big-adventure thrill trip away from home.

They hear about this "new-thing"....totally harmless of course....thrill you can get from drinking this mixture of chemicals from some people they meet on the beach or at a bar.

So they decide to give it a try.

Remember....their hotel room doors were locked from the inside.

They were reportedly novices at this kind of thing....no expeience with any kinds of drugs.

I imagine that drinking anything with DEET in it must have tasted like crap,,,,but maybe they forced it down.

And just how much of such a cocktail from hell is the critical level?

Easy to misjudge...even if you knew what level became dangerous.

Footnote: DEET used to be used to spray areas we lived in for mosquitos and bugs in our "hooch" housing when I was in the U.S. Army in Vietnam.

And if you're allergic or have a lower tolerance...it can make you feel sick...even at reltively low levels.

I normally left the hooch for a while when they sprayed....it gave me headaches.

Why anyone would deliberately drink it in some kind of mixture....that would be a very sutpid thing to do.

Good post.

I think you are "on the money" with your scenario.

Good if this story and information can get to our young travellers before they leave home.

Education is the best prevention of tragedy.

[joboss]

I had no idea that any bar would make such a drink that could kill. There must be a way for the police to check which bars produce that

that kind of drink and shut them down. The resutls took a rather long time.

It is obvious that there must be 100s of bars that serve this concoction. I will stick with my favorite...gin n tonic (absolute of course)

with a lemon or lime twist.

Drink enough alcohol it will kill you and thats perfectly legal......................I thank the day I tried some and found all alcohol disgusting.

Haha!! R u assuming that there are no "Gin Mills" in Thailand??

The land of amazing improvisations?

[Nip]

Thanks for adding my video Webfact

DEET (N,N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide). Chemical Technical Summary for Public Health and Public Safety Professionals. Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry

http://www.atsdr.cdc...th-effects.html

Also i can understand the Thai media / Gov have tired to cover this up also Thai hotels have a habbit of spraying all rooms with this stuff and can make problems with breathing ..

What's the guy in the video wearing a white lab coat for? He's not doing anything that needs it - is it to make it look more scientific so that his word will be more respected?

Well one thinks it wouldnt have had the same impact, had he been wearing a Grateful dead, Ozzy Osbourne or Led Zepplin Tee shirt...

Ha Ha - Ozzy perhaps would know more about drugs than the man in the white coat... Indeed so would if they were alive Messr's Garcia & Bonham?

[pkspeaker]

be safe-smoke weed-at least it's natural

you did the right thing, one time when i was in losangeles my friend there got invited to an exclusive hollywood type party, it was being hosted by this guy who had just won the 'big brother' reality tv show--i didn't know what that was but thought it would be fun and maybe see the type of place celebrities party at.. we got there, many people and beutiful women and a band playing but no Paris Hilton or Lyndsey Lohan anyways the drinks were super expensive, at least $20 for 1 drink..what could i do, all this rockin scene and i have no business being here because i could only aford 1 drink..my friend found someone to buy him drinks, after a while i made it up to where the band was playing and he was really flyin-super high-the guy that bought him a drink took off when he saw me start talking to my friend.. when we eventually amde it back to his hotel room he got really sick and passed out near the toilet trying to vomit, I was checking his pulse every 10 minutes to make sure he was'nt dying..the next day he could not remember anything about the party or who the guy was who gave him a date-rape laced drug.. so obviously the gay guy had hoped to pull him into a back room in that club and rape him while he was wasted-but split when i showed up to ruin his plans..my friend stayed sick for an entire week from that overdose..and this was at some high class party--sexual preditors that messed up were prowling around it so a strange drink in thailand or philipines is gonna be that much more dangerous.

While in the Philippines in June nearly got in a fight with someidiots because I wouldn't drink with them. I told the guy sorry I do not drink with people I do not know or drink drinks from bottles that I have no clue where it came from. To get the guy to shut up I finally excepted the drink and dunmped it, did he get mad, you thru my drink away, I said no I thru my drink away as you gave it to me now **** off. Then latter his buddy got into the act I finally told him to **** off as well the wait staff knew me and calmed these idiots down.

You have to be carefull who you except drinks from especially if you are a good looking girl, you do not have a clue whats in the drink. Best wishes to the family of the 2 girls very sad.

[tigermonkey]

Thai Visa proclaimed yesterday that we should expect "flash floods" this weekend. Well, we have them - flash floods of wild unfounded speculation'

It starts with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) headline claiming "Quebec sisters died in Thailand from drinking DEET", increases with the TV announcement "Canadian Sisters Died In Thailand From Drinking Cocktail That Contained Insect Repellent" and continues unabated with the illogical ramblings of TV members.

Nowhere has any basis been brought forward for the headlines or the many other 'conclusions' proposed. Fine DEET was found in the autopsy - where was it found and in what quantity ? Was unaltered DEET found in stomach contents or in vomit samples? Was it DEET metabolites that were found ? -- if so in what tissues and what quantity ?

Where Does the conclusion of "ingestion" come from ? Was DEET found in stomach contents and vomit samples ?- 2 days after death ?

How is the conclusion of lethal dosage reached ? What was the level of DEET metabolites in the assays done on various tissue samples to reach this conclusion ?

As a medical professional, I can not accept any of the conclusions or speculations brought forward. We really have no more useful information than we had last week !

Perhaps the autopsy was intentionally leaked to the CBC ( known affectionately by some as the Canadian Broadcorping Castration)with the knowledge that the CBC would wildly speculate -- and that this speculation would bring some closure to the investigation.

[ozziebloke]

I'm not saying this is what happened. But teenagers and young adults experiment with drugs and alchohol all the time. Spiking their own drinks with ecstacy for example and it is known kids have died from this. Kids when they hear of some practices try and experiment. I remember kids sniffing glue/petrol, There are clear warnings but kids try because they will get high

[crazykopite]

I find this very disturbing these young girls would have had to have consumed a very large amount of Deet to kill themselves . will be interesting to see what a private autopsy comes up with would be amazed if it came to the same conclusion, yet anther two deaths brushed under the mat very very sad