Thai Charter Change Is The Real Battle

[OzMick]

Martyrdom becomes him.

[smutcakes]

All the coup supporter, support it for 2 reasons:

1) They don't see any other way to restore democracy and get rid of the worst corruption (I think no one would complain at the usual 10 % corruption)

2) They don't believe that any military government could be worse than this Thaksin government.

And actually the last coup supports this ideas. It was the cleanest and best government since 10 years. Just their reforms were too weak to make an impact. A complete reorganization of the police, courts and structur of laws. But it was still the right way.

Whatever benefits there are to a coup, they are outweighed by the credibility and legitimacy that Thaksin inherits because of one. This is what most recently has given him traction. Fighting against anti-democratic people like Thaksin, is not done by using more anti-democratic methods, it's done by someone taking the democratic high ground, and the masses waking up and seeing that.

I see your argument, it is valid. But it may need decades, see how long it needed in the Soviet block and all the countries around. Look at North Korea....sure at some point the regime will fall apart. And it might be in the long term better if it goes the normal way. But impatience people like me, just don't want to wait 3-5 generations with 10.000s or Millions of deads (I don't mean violence, I mean underfunding of hospitals, healthcare, work safety, food, because of a corrupt or stupid government). (No I am not sarcastic). I prefer the quick fix. Thailand had many coups, real democracy never developed but still the country developed better than many similar countries, for a long time it was ahead of all neighbors.

Surely if there was a 'quick fix' which could fast track development to a more developed form of democracy than currently, then all countries in the world in similar positions would do it. Whilst i agree that the current Government is not doing a very good job and a coup could put a stop to it- it is very difficult to see how and where you go forward from the coup. How do you then go back to elections, without PTP or their affliates getting in again, as they no doubt would should there be a coup.

[Nickymaster]

The elected democratic government will amend the charter in stages

When's the referendum on whether or not the populace want constitutional amendments in the first place?

.

Referendum? This country belongs to the Shins. They won the election. They can/will do whatever they want. You didn't know that?..

[rixalex]

what happening it has also some big downsides.....

I'm afraid the downsides haven't gone away, no matter how compelling i find your argument.

[MunterHunter]

Maybe Democracy isn't the right model for this country anyway?

[smutcakes]

Maybe Democracy isn't the right model for this country anyway?

Potentially, but what is? corruption seems so ingrained into the society, that until some honest people step up to the plate and start taking a stand, then it doesn't matter who is governing the country be it a party or the army, nothing much will change.

[MunterHunter]

Potentially, but what is? corruption seems so ingrained into the society, that until some honest people step up to the plate and start taking a stand, then it doesn't matter who is governing the country be it a party or the army, nothing much will change.

I dont really have answers, just thought i'd throw that comment out there and see what happens. All options seem as bad as each other.

Sooner or Later Thaksin will turn this country into the Republic of Thakland, unless someone steps up and does something about it.

[OzMick]

Then we'd all be up Shin creek without a paddle

[smutcakes]

Potentially, but what is? corruption seems so ingrained into the society, that until some honest people step up to the plate and start taking a stand, then it doesn't matter who is governing the country be it a party or the army, nothing much will change.

I dont really have answers, just thought i'd throw that comment out there and see what happens. All options seem as bad as each other.

Sooner or Later Thaksin will turn this country into the Republic of Thakland, unless someone steps up and does something about it.

Actually you have to wonder whether the people at the top of the chain actually want to change the system. Whether they are PTP, DEMS, police, army, other Government bodies- they are all on the take. Okay when the party in power changes some people get cut out, but others in the army, police etc benefit. i think most of them are happy to let things carry on as is- so at least they have the chance of benefiting whether it be now or in the future.

[rixalex]

Then we'd all be up Shin creek without a paddle

Thanks for the visual!

I think there are enough people as it is with their heads right up "Shin creek".... not sure how the rest of us will squeeze in... with or without paddles.

[h90]

All the coup supporter, support it for 2 reasons:

1) They don't see any other way to restore democracy and get rid of the worst corruption (I think no one would complain at the usual 10 % corruption)

2) They don't believe that any military government could be worse than this Thaksin government.

And actually the last coup supports this ideas. It was the cleanest and best government since 10 years. Just their reforms were too weak to make an impact. A complete reorganization of the police, courts and structur of laws. But it was still the right way.

Whatever benefits there are to a coup, they are outweighed by the credibility and legitimacy that Thaksin inherits because of one. This is what most recently has given him traction. Fighting against anti-democratic people like Thaksin, is not done by using more anti-democratic methods, it's done by someone taking the democratic high ground, and the masses waking up and seeing that.

I see your argument, it is valid. But it may need decades, see how long it needed in the Soviet block and all the countries around. Look at North Korea....sure at some point the regime will fall apart. And it might be in the long term better if it goes the normal way. But impatience people like me, just don't want to wait 3-5 generations with 10.000s or Millions of deads (I don't mean violence, I mean underfunding of hospitals, healthcare, work safety, food, because of a corrupt or stupid government). (No I am not sarcastic). I prefer the quick fix. Thailand had many coups, real democracy never developed but still the country developed better than many similar countries, for a long time it was ahead of all neighbors.

Surely if there was a 'quick fix' which could fast track development to a more developed form of democracy than currently, then all countries in the world in similar positions would do it. Whilst i agree that the current Government is not doing a very good job and a coup could put a stop to it- it is very difficult to see how and where you go forward from the coup. How do you then go back to elections, without PTP or their affliates getting in again, as they no doubt would should there be a coup.

Well if you put all the criminal PTP members in jail and take all the corruption money, take all the properties and money of the Thaksin clan, monitor incoming money. Make hard corruption laws. Hard I mean that all the money is taken, also that money that is in the name of your wife, kids, gardener and driver+long jail terms.

complete rebuild the police. Changing the law system to some straight laws, kick out all judges that are known as corrupt. Parties that are dissolved can not be founded again under a similar name. Change to a proportional vote system. Nationalize Oil and gas resources that rights were sold at a lower than usual value.

etc etc

than go over 5-10 years step by step back to democracy.

Not an easy thing but I don't any better solution.

[rixalex]

Potentially, but what is? corruption seems so ingrained into the society, that until some honest people step up to the plate and start taking a stand, then it doesn't matter who is governing the country be it a party or the army, nothing much will change.

I dont really have answers, just thought i'd throw that comment out there and see what happens. All options seem as bad as each other.

Sooner or Later Thaksin will turn this country into the Republic of Thakland, unless someone steps up and does something about it.

Actually you have to wonder whether the people at the top of the chain actually want to change the system. Whether they are PTP, DEMS, police, army, other Government bodies- they are all on the take. Okay when the party in power changes some people get cut out, but others in the army, police etc benefit. i think most of them are happy to let things carry on as is- so at least they have the chance of benefiting whether it be now or in the future.

The band is as crap as the situation in Thailand.

[rixalex]

Well if you put all the criminal PTP members in jail and take all the corruption money, take all the properties and money of the Thaksin clan, monitor incoming money. Make hard corruption laws. Hard I mean that all the money is taken, also that money that is in the name of your wife, kids, gardener and driver+long jail terms.

complete rebuild the police. Changing the law system to some straight laws, kick out all judges that are known as corrupt. Parties that are dissolved can not be founded again under a similar name. Change to a proportional vote system. Nationalize Oil and gas resources that rights were sold at a lower than usual value.

etc etc

than go over 5-10 years step by step back to democracy.

Not an easy thing but I don't any better solution.

Back on planet Earth...

[h90]

Well if you put all the criminal PTP members in jail and take all the corruption money, take all the properties and money of the Thaksin clan, monitor incoming money. Make hard corruption laws. Hard I mean that all the money is taken, also that money that is in the name of your wife, kids, gardener and driver+long jail terms.

complete rebuild the police. Changing the law system to some straight laws, kick out all judges that are known as corrupt. Parties that are dissolved can not be founded again under a similar name. Change to a proportional vote system. Nationalize Oil and gas resources that rights were sold at a lower than usual value.

etc etc

than go over 5-10 years step by step back to democracy.

Not an easy thing but I don't any better solution.

Back on planet Earth...

transporting them to the moon would be good but expensive.

[smutcakes]

Well if you put all the criminal PTP members in jail and take all the corruption money, take all the properties and money of the Thaksin clan, monitor incoming money. Make hard corruption laws. Hard I mean that all the money is taken, also that money that is in the name of your wife, kids, gardener and driver+long jail terms.

complete rebuild the police. Changing the law system to some straight laws, kick out all judges that are known as corrupt. Parties that are dissolved can not be founded again under a similar name. Change to a proportional vote system. Nationalize Oil and gas resources that rights were sold at a lower than usual value.

etc etc

than go over 5-10 years step by step back to democracy.

Not an easy thing but I don't any better solution.

And who is the squeaky clean person he will oversee this? the judges? the army? the police? You are living in cloud cuckoo land. If somebody went to those lengths you would probably have to deport half of Thailand!

[scorecard]

Potentially, but what is? corruption seems so ingrained into the society, that until some honest people step up to the plate and start taking a stand, then it doesn't matter who is governing the country be it a party or the army, nothing much will change.

I dont really have answers, just thought i'd throw that comment out there and see what happens. All options seem as bad as each other.

Sooner or Later Thaksin will turn this country into the Republic of Thakland, unless someone steps up and does something about it.

Actually you have to wonder whether the people at the top of the chain actually want to change the system. Whether they are PTP, DEMS, police, army, other Government bodies- they are all on the take. Okay when the party in power changes some people get cut out, but others in the army, police etc benefit. i think most of them are happy to let things carry on as is- so at least they have the chance of benefiting whether it be now or in the future.

I think you answered your own question, very clearly!

[scorecard]

Well if you put all the criminal PTP members in jail and take all the corruption money, take all the properties and money of the Thaksin clan, monitor incoming money. Make hard corruption laws. Hard I mean that all the money is taken, also that money that is in the name of your wife, kids, gardener and driver+long jail terms.

complete rebuild the police. Changing the law system to some straight laws, kick out all judges that are known as corrupt. Parties that are dissolved can not be founded again under a similar name. Change to a proportional vote system. Nationalize Oil and gas resources that rights were sold at a lower than usual value.

etc etc

than go over 5-10 years step by step back to democracy.

Not an easy thing but I don't any better solution.

And who is the squeaky clean person he will oversee this? the judges? the army? the police? You are living in cloud cuckoo land. If somebody went to those lengths you would probably have to deport half of Thailand!

Actually there are many clever, sincere and honest Thais who want to see things change, but the sad thing is that they stay away from Thai politics like the plague, they don't want to be associated with the current incapable leaches and no ethics or morals thieves, which covers about 99% or the current Thai politicians.

[khunken]

Well if you put all the criminal PTP members in jail and take all the corruption money, take all the properties and money of the Thaksin clan, monitor incoming money. Make hard corruption laws. Hard I mean that all the money is taken, also that money that is in the name of your wife, kids, gardener and driver+long jail terms.

complete rebuild the police. Changing the law system to some straight laws, kick out all judges that are known as corrupt. Parties that are dissolved can not be founded again under a similar name. Change to a proportional vote system. Nationalize Oil and gas resources that rights were sold at a lower than usual value.

etc etc

than go over 5-10 years step by step back to democracy.

Not an easy thing but I don't any better solution.

And who is the squeaky clean person he will oversee this? the judges? the army? the police? You are living in cloud cuckoo land. If somebody went to those lengths you would probably have to deport half of Thailand!

Actually there are many clever, sincere and honest Thais who want to see things change, but the sad thing is that they stay away from Thai politics like the plague, they don't want to be associated with the current incapable leaches and no ethics or morals thieves, which covers about 99% or the current Thai politicians.

Yes there are many honest Thais who would make very good leaders of the country &, as you say, distance themselves from the political set-up which has no real ideology.

The problem as I see it is that 3 years is too long to wait & see how the current government fares. If they would just get on with doing some good for the country, that would be ok. But they already have shown that everything else is secondary to giving Thaksin an amnesty. Even any half-intelligent Thaksin supporter would surely admit that this issue is so divisive, that more violence & probably death will occur so long as it remains a PTP priority.

That is not something that can be ignored. A coup will not change the inherent corruption in the political system but it may well be necessary to prevent serious violence if minor skirmishes get out of hand.

If it comes to a coup, the military should make it clear that they will not return to civilian rule until Thaksin is out of the picture - preferably locked up somewhere for a long time.

[h90]

Well if you put all the criminal PTP members in jail and take all the corruption money, take all the properties and money of the Thaksin clan, monitor incoming money. Make hard corruption laws. Hard I mean that all the money is taken, also that money that is in the name of your wife, kids, gardener and driver+long jail terms.

complete rebuild the police. Changing the law system to some straight laws, kick out all judges that are known as corrupt. Parties that are dissolved can not be founded again under a similar name. Change to a proportional vote system. Nationalize Oil and gas resources that rights were sold at a lower than usual value.

etc etc

than go over 5-10 years step by step back to democracy.

Not an easy thing but I don't any better solution.

And who is the squeaky clean person he will oversee this? the judges? the army? the police? You are living in cloud cuckoo land. If somebody went to those lengths you would probably have to deport half of Thailand!

squeaky clean....I don't know...but there are enough good people. Surayut wasn't corrupt. Chamlong is above doubt...sure there are hundreds of others.

[MILT]

opinions are like assH*les everybody got's one.

[Dap]

Let's hope the censure motion removes the necessity of the change to the charter!

How that?

er ... lose the Govt and there's no need to enter changes to the charter they consider necessary to bring the puppet master back home. Sorry if you missed the point.

no I mean how it should be possible that the Govt lose it?? All the PTP MPs will vote what they are told to vote. It isn't that they decide on their own. They vote what they are paid to vote for and definitely they won't remove themself from the trough. There is no single reason to do that. It is all about money, nothing else.

Absolutely! It's all about the money. It's always all about the money ... "and nothing else."

[backtonormal]

All the coup supporter, support it for 2 reasons:

1) They don't see any other way to restore democracy and get rid of the worst corruption (I think no one would complain at the usual 10 % corruption)

2) They don't believe that any military government could be worse than this Thaksin government.

And actually the last coup supports this ideas. It was the cleanest and best government since 10 years. Just their reforms were too weak to make an impact. A complete reorganization of the police, courts and structur of laws. But it was still the right way.

Whatever benefits there are to a coup, they are outweighed by the credibility and legitimacy that Thaksin inherits because of one. This is what most recently has given him traction. Fighting against anti-democratic people like Thaksin, is not done by using more anti-democratic methods, it's done by someone taking the democratic high ground, and the masses waking up and seeing that.

I see your argument, it is valid. But it may need decades, see how long it needed in the Soviet block and all the countries around. Look at North Korea....sure at some point the regime will fall apart. And it might be in the long term better if it goes the normal way. But impatience people like me, just don't want to wait 3-5 generations with 10.000s or Millions of deads (I don't mean violence, I mean underfunding of hospitals, healthcare, work safety, food, because of a corrupt or stupid government). (No I am not sarcastic). I prefer the quick fix. Thailand had many coups, real democracy never developed but still the country developed better than many similar countries, for a long time it was ahead of all neighbors.

Surely if there was a 'quick fix' which could fast track development to a more developed form of democracy than currently, then all countries in the world in similar positions would do it. Whilst i agree that the current Government is not doing a very good job and a coup could put a stop to it- it is very difficult to see how and where you go forward from the coup. How do you then go back to elections, without PTP or their affliates getting in again, as they no doubt would should there be a coup.

Some on here love their coups. Can somebody tell me who initiated the last coup and the one before that and the one before that. etc etc. It certainly wasn't the Army Commander in Chief on any occasion. Who makes the initial phone call. It is those people who need to be locked up not Thaksin.

[h90]

Some on here love their coups. Can somebody tell me who initiated the last coup and the one before that and the one before that. etc etc. It certainly wasn't the Army Commander in Chief on any occasion. Who makes the initial phone call. It is those people who need to be locked up not Thaksin.

who made the last call should receive a medal.

[rixalex]

It is those people who need to be locked up not Thaksin.

Why does what other people are alleged to have done suddenly make Thaksin's crimes go away?

[Pimay1]

It is those people who need to be locked up not Thaksin.

Why does what other people are alleged to have done suddenly make Thaksin's crimes go away?

It doesn't but this is the only defense the Thaksin apologists have. I.E. he robbed a bank so it is ok if I rob a bank. Go figure.

[smedly]

It's always amusing to listen to farangs who spend so long in a foreign country they feel the need to get involved in political discussions to give themselves a sense of belong. Happy politicking 'aliens'. Lol

My father taught me at a very young age not to enter into a conversation with an idiot, because he will drag you down to his level and beat you on experience..

So I'll not comment on this post !!

lol read below

[indyuk]

It's always amusing to listen to farangs who spend so long in a foreign country they feel the need to get involved in political discussions to give themselves a sense of belong. Happy politicking 'aliens'. Lol

My father taught me at a very young age not to enter into a conversation with an idiot, because he will drag you down to his level and beat you on experience..

So I'll not comment on this post !!

Enjoy your amusement though nothing will change in respect to the foreigner’s sense of fair play and equal rights.

The foreigners that are resident in Thailand are Juristic persons and the businesses that they own in partnership with Thai persons are also Juristic persons.

Therefore the resident foreigner in Thailand is equal to all Thai persons before the Thai Law and the various Thai Tax Offices.

Accordingly we reserve our ‘Juristic Right’ to opine publically in all matters of government and law and order, together with any issues that may damage our juristic rights in Thailand

Edited November 4, 2012 by indyuk

[whybother]

It's always amusing to listen to farangs who spend so long in a foreign country they feel the need to get involved in political discussions to give themselves a sense of belong. Happy politicking 'aliens'. Lol

My father taught me at a very young age not to enter into a conversation with an idiot, because he will drag you down to his level and beat you on experience..

So I'll not comment on this post !!

Enjoy your amusement though nothing will change in respect to the foreigner’s sense of fair play and equal rights.

The foreigners that are resident in Thailand are Juristic persons and the businesses that they own in partnership with Thai persons are also Juristic persons.

Therefore the resident foreigner in Thailand is equal to all Thai persons before the Thai Law and the various Thai Tax Offices.

Accordingly we reserve our ‘Juristic Right’ to opine publically in all matters of government and law and order, together with any issues that may damage our juristic rights in Thailand

<deleted>?

[Jawnie]

Well, yes, westerners from democracies understand that everyone has the right to express their opinion and to be involved. It's when those westerners express the opinion in support of military coups to remove the democratically elected Thai government that things start sounding idiotic.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

What is idiotic is someone who supports Thaksin and the reds, lecturing someone else, anyone else, about the importance of democracy.

Just because someone does not like the idea of a coup does not automatically make them a Thaksin or red supporter. I can see all the crap which this Government is doing, but having a coup will not solve the problem - it fact it will probably make it worse.

All the coup supporter, support it for 2 reasons:

1) They don't see any other way to restore democracy and get rid of the worst corruption (I think no one would complain at the usual 10 % corruption)

2) They don't believe that any military government could be worse than this Thaksin government.

And actually the last coup supports this ideas. It was the cleanest and best government since 10 years. Just their reforms were too weak to make an impact. A complete reorganization of the police, courts and structur of laws. But it was still the right way.

Nonsense...the last coup only means that corrupt individuals, corporations, and Army generals didn't like the government the people elected. The MOST, and only, democratic path is to allow the elected government to complete its term and let the people decide again. It is not the role or proper place for a small group of corporate interests and Army generals to determine what is best for the people when the people decided already. Period.

I repeat my usual refrain about the expats who come to Thailand from western democracies and sit on the sidelines in Thailand, cheering on undemocratic military coups removing an elected government. Such hypocrits....

Edited November 6, 2012 by Jawnie