Compost Pile

[seedy]

Just found a house to rent, so my plan for full-time life in CNX is one step closer.

We used a compost pile in Canada year-round, but have never tried in a tropical area.

Anything different I must do - are pests more attracted to the pile, ants, etc ?

More watering needed due to the hot climate ?

Was thinking of starting with cow manure as a base and turning in the kitchen scraps weekly.

This will be used for raised beds growing organic vegetables for home consumption.

Thanks.

[cooked]

I'm a beginner myself. I had to struggle with the miserable excuse for soil here (better for making bricks with, really), I gently added sand, against the advice of everybody ('it go down!) and old cow manure, took me about 6 months to get a soil workable when wet as well as when bone dry. We water twice a day, including the compost heap. We get cows parked on our property occasionally so no problem with manure, but the best stuff comes from the cow shelter where the older stuff turns into something like peat, really makes stuff grow, have to be careful not to give too much. I have heard of snakes liking compost heaps but haven't seen any yet.

Raised beds yes, plenty of mulching - we are using last years rice straw now but rice husks look like a good alternative.

You will seriously have to look at pest control, you will find it difficult to find a serious supplier of pesticides that don't damage the environment. It's a learning curve.

[seedy]

Thank you for the reply.

I used small willow branches in the bottom of my raised beds back in Canada to promote drainage. Black soil never a problem as I was a placer miner and we moved tons of it every spring. Just find the right balance between slow and fast decaying material, and it comes out black and rich.

Seen the aged cow manure when I was a boy and we still farmed - very good stuff, almost a gray color and fibrous. Took about a year if I remember.

Will just get after it - learn as I go.

[jamescollister]

Thank you for the reply.

I used small willow branches in the bottom of my raised beds back in Canada to promote drainage. Black soil never a problem as I was a placer miner and we moved tons of it every spring. Just find the right balance between slow and fast decaying material, and it comes out black and rich.

Seen the aged cow manure when I was a boy and we still farmed - very good stuff, almost a gray color and fibrous. Took about a year if I remember.

Will just get after it - learn as I go.

Just started composting myself, no idea of the best way. Will just throw the stuff in and let nature take it's course.

Question, we burn a lot of wood, rubber smoking, can you use the ash for composting, good or bad. Jim

[cooked]

'In my experience'... too much wood ash makes the compost heavy, soggy and inactive. I used to scatter it over my garden in winter, made the snow melt and is good for onions and stuff like that I think. Contains Potassium (Potash) salts. So next time it snows, you know what to do. Some wood ash isn't good for the garden at all, you would have to research that.

OP: I think you were going in the direction of 'Hugelkultur, tropics', google it. This is my long term project, although at the moment I don't know where I can get sufficient quantities of wood, jealously guarded here. Thinking about using charcoal in the soil as a substitute for wood.

[loong]

plan for full-time life in CNX

What is CNX ?

There's a fair amount re composting in the Organic sub-forum.

You may find some useful info there.

[Canada]

plan for full-time life in CNX

What is CNX ?

There's a fair amount re composting in the Organic sub-forum.

You may find some useful info there.

Hey, that's helpful Loong. Thanks.

CNX is Chiang Mai Airport symbol.

[seedy]

Great link re: hugelkultur. Sounds just what I was looking for.

Used to build raised beds from green lumber, but these are even better.

Thanks.

[loong]

plan for full-time life in CNX

What is CNX ?

There's a fair amount re composting in the Organic sub-forum.

You may find some useful info there.

Hey, that's helpful Loong. Thanks.

CNX is Chiang Mai Airport symbol.

That would be interesting, living in an airport

Don't know if they would let you build a garden there though

You could probably sell the rights to make a movie of your story.

Sorry, couldn't resist it. I apologise.

[IsaanAussie]

For the newbies to composting there are a few things you need to consider, the most important being the carbon to nitrogen ratio (30::1), aeration of the pile and the moisture content. Composting is the process of decomposition which requires microbes breaking down the organic materials. Microbes will go dormant or die if the moisture level is much below 40%. If you squeeze a handful of the materials you should get a drop to two of moisture only. Cover the pile or build it in the shade but keep the surface moist.

Aeration means turning the pile, hard work equals good compost.

I produce manure based thermophillic compost. I also reprocess some of that into fertiliser by fermenting it in bags with probiotics and adding minerals, limes and rice bran. This I then pellitise, and as of today with a BIG pellet mill, so volume at last.

For a small garden try using the Bokashi method. You can produce the starter bran very simply and you add that to your kitchen scraps then bury the mixture beneath you new garden bed where it will rot down.

If you have access to rice straw then grab it, makes excellent mulch and breaks down into excellent loamy soil. I use straw bales as the edging for vegetable raised beds and incorporate whats left into the soil.

[IsaanAussie]

Wood ash is very close to cement in character ans can be used to replace up to half of the cement in concrete. The potash is great for compost and fertiliser but the ash must be well mixed in to avoid it binding the other materials together. A positive is ashes are not liked by many insects as they coat the bodies and suffocate them, so keep a bit back and let the dogs and chickens roll in it to get rid of ticks and fleas.

[seedy]

Thanks IA - always a pleasure to read your posts, very informative.

[IsaanAussie]

Today has been a great day for me. Got the new pellet maker working and the fermented enriched compost pelleted up beautifully curing the dust issue I have had with the product. I am really excited about this stuff and now can start to sell slow release organic fertiliser with well over 80% organic matter and significant bio active microbes, NPK and trace nutrients contributions.

For the other Aussies out there I would liken it to Dynamic Lifter. For the pig farmers among us the best pelletised pig manure you have ever seen. Yahoooooo...

[bunnydrops]

"I think you were going in the direction of 'Hugelkultur, tropics', google it. This is my long term project, although at the moment I don't know where I can get sufficient quantities of wood, jealously guarded here. Thinking about using charcoal in the soil as a substitute for wood".

I wonder about the wood myself, Here north of Korat, we have lots of termites. The locals put this white power in the holes before planting flowers and trees. They say it keeps the termites from eating the roots. It seems that building on top of logs is just inviting trouble. I belive wood ash helps to sweeten the acid soil we have here, but have been told it takes years to correct the Ph.

[cooked]

"I think you were going in the direction of 'Hugelkultur, tropics', google it. This is my long term project, although at the moment I don't know where I can get sufficient quantities of wood, jealously guarded here. Thinking about using charcoal in the soil as a substitute for wood".

I wonder about the wood myself, Here north of Korat, we have lots of termites. The locals put this white power in the holes before planting flowers and trees. They say it keeps the termites from eating the roots. It seems that building on top of logs is just inviting trouble. I belive wood ash helps to sweeten the acid soil we have here, but have been told it takes years to correct the Ph.

Hmm. I didn't think of that, but we have few problems with termites here.The classic answer to acid soil is adding chalk (agricultural lime), I have even seen cement being proposed (!). Acid soil is suitable for many plants, including most vegetables. I'm sure you can find a list of them somewhere. The plants will need enough organic material however as the soil tends to be deficient in many nutrients. Which of course is why you asked about compost!

[Canada]

Today has been a great day for me. Got the new pellet maker working and the fermented enriched compost pelleted up beautifully curing the dust issue I have had with the product. I am really excited about this stuff and now can start to sell slow release organic fertiliser with well over 80% organic matter and significant bio active microbes, NPK and trace nutrients contributions.

For the other Aussies out there I would liken it to Dynamic Lifter. For the pig farmers among us the best pelletised pig manure you have ever seen. Yahoooooo...

Have you got lots of this stuff? I am about to finish ploughing a small field that we will plant sugar on shortly thereafter. How much do you sell for and where are you?

[Steely Dan]

I'm a beginner myself. I had to struggle with the miserable excuse for soil here (better for making bricks with, really), I gently added sand, against the advice of everybody ('it go down!) and old cow manure, took me about 6 months to get a soil workable when wet as well as when bone dry. We water twice a day, including the compost heap. We get cows parked on our property occasionally so no problem with manure, but the best stuff comes from the cow shelter where the older stuff turns into something like peat, really makes stuff grow, have to be careful not to give too much. I have heard of snakes liking compost heaps but haven't seen any yet.

Raised beds yes, plenty of mulching - we are using last years rice straw now but rice husks look like a good alternative.

You will seriously have to look at pest control, you will find it difficult to find a serious supplier of pesticides that don't damage the environment. It's a learning curve.

Yes, they do attract snakes, and rats, centipedes and other things you don't want crawling up your sleeve. After one year we emptied ours and found the lot, including a snake we netted and let go the other side of the highway. You will need to cover and water outside the rainy season, but from personal experience when we started burning rice husks and using the resulting biocharcoal as a litter tray under the chicken coops we had the magic ingredient to greatly speed up decomposition. Seed biocharcoal with urea if you have no chickens as the surface area is imho the key factor.

[IsaanAussie]

Today has been a great day for me. Got the new pellet maker working and the fermented enriched compost pelleted up beautifully curing the dust issue I have had with the product. I am really excited about this stuff and now can start to sell slow release organic fertiliser with well over 80% organic matter and significant bio active microbes, NPK and trace nutrients contributions.

For the other Aussies out there I would liken it to Dynamic Lifter. For the pig farmers among us the best pelletised pig manure you have ever seen. Yahoooooo...

Have you got lots of this stuff? I am about to finish ploughing a small field that we will plant sugar on shortly thereafter. How much do you sell for and where are you?

Canada and I have had this conversation via PM and phone. For others interested the answers are 20 baht and Sisaket. In terms of volume, I had some stocks and will make up to order with any additional nutrients needed.

[Canada]

Today has been a great day for me. Got the new pellet maker working and the fermented enriched compost pelleted up beautifully curing the dust issue I have had with the product. I am really excited about this stuff and now can start to sell slow release organic fertiliser with well over 80% organic matter and significant bio active microbes, NPK and trace nutrients contributions.

For the other Aussies out there I would liken it to Dynamic Lifter. For the pig farmers among us the best pelletised pig manure you have ever seen. Yahoooooo...

Have you got lots of this stuff? I am about to finish ploughing a small field that we will plant sugar on shortly thereafter. How much do you sell for and where are you?

Canada and I have had this conversation via PM and phone. For others interested the answers are 20 baht and Sisaket. In terms of volume, I had some stocks and will make up to order with any additional nutrients needed.

You sure about the price??

[IsaanAussie]

Yes, new product looking for markets. Got to start somewhere. Happy to take more!

[JDGRUEN]

Hi folks ... Joe Here.... I will be in Thailand in the Spring 2013 - but that is another story... I just read all the posts on this thread and have a couple of ideas I picked up at other locations.

Arundo Donax - a wood substitute for making fuel pellets (cellulosic fuel pellets) or just used to make charcoal... Arundo Donax (AD) is a giant grass that grows in many areas around the world including Thailand in certain areas. AD grows about one meter per month in tropical climates - up to about 5-7 meters - sometime more. Just google Arundo Donax and Thailand and see where you can find it. It is easily transplanted using root pices or the whole young plant. Grows great in rock-dirt filled ditches with a lot of water. I thought this idea would be helpful considering the availability of wood for such purposes and AD is renewable.. AD has thick woody stems that can be dried and burned as fuel, made into charcoal pieces or ground up as charcoal useful as a source of carbon.. or one can extrude ground up pieces into fuel pellets.

Also - I picked this up on another site - use compost piles to heat water by putting coils of tubing in a pile of compost - circulate the water let it heat up...Several guys in cold climate USA and Canada say they are doing this. The hot water produced this way - depending on how clean and sanitary it is - could be use for bathing, washing clothes, dishes or for cleaning barns, stables, livestock stalls and pens. .

Just some ideas and suggestions.

[IsaanAussie]

Two useful ideas especially the grass if as pellets the emissions are OK, I'll be checking that out as clean burning biomass is always short in supply. Practically it is a matter of cost versus return, charcoal is not cheap here by local standards to buy but most make their own. Industry is moving towards co-generation using bagasse etc..as is available. Agriculture and water purification usage of the carbon is of interest to me.

Compost hot water, or fan blown hot house heating are great in cold climates. Here just use some cheap pvc water pipe, a cheap water pump and the sun. Ask those how have been scalded washing after toilet time, its hot enough to cause damage.

Good to see these ideas offered up, we all can benefit.

[IsaanAussie]

I thought it may be useful to attach the Thai Compost Standards (English) for those interested. I disagree with some of the statements and some of the specification requirements, but then, at least there are rules to be followed.

compost.pdf

[seedy]

Did not know that there were standards. Thanks for the info IA.

[JDGRUEN]

I just found the Arundo Donax Thailand location information in my records ... See Below:

The location in Thailand is a protected wet land.. but knowing the plant as I do - if it grows in the wet land in Phichit Province it will likely be growing on private land and in drainage ditches along back roads. One you see a big clump of Arundo Donax growing - it is not difficult to spot it in other places once you know what you are looking at. You can see many examples by using google images.

I have found it to be easy to transplant AD. I just dug up some small plants and roots in a big stand of AD growing along side the road and put them in the edge of my garden... It has been growing quite well for two years.

Web Links for AD ...

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Arundo_donax

http://www.biggreene...aspx?tabid=4269

Arundo Donax is considered an invasive species in many places - but considering it has been 'invading' for hundreds and hundreds of years - just when does it stop being an invader?

Arundo Donax location Thailand:

Wetland name: Beung Si Fai, Country: Thailand, Coordinates: 16°25'N, 100°20'E; Location: one km southwest of the town of Phichit, Phichit Province. Area: 810 ha.Altitude: 35m.Biogeographical Province: 4.5.1.Wetland type: 14., Description of site: A permanent, freshwater lake, its associated marshes and adjacent rice paddies,situated approximately two km from the Mae Nam Nan and lying on the outskirts of the town of Phichit. The lake is fringed with emergent vegetation in some parts. It is fed by overspill from the River Nan during the late rainy season, and there is no major outflow. The average depth of water is 1.5m (maximum 3.Om).Climatic conditions: Tropical monsoonal climate with an average rainfall of 1,792 mm. The mean annual temperature at Nakhon Sawan, 60 km to the south, is 28.3°C. Principal vegetation: There are small areas of Arundo donax and Cyperus spp around the lake margins. The floating vegetation includes Nelumbo nucifera, Lemna minor and Eichhornia crassipes.

[IsaanAussie]

The following passage is taken from a passage from a US study and explains much of nitrogen misunderstandings. Worth a read if you are making compost and wondering if you need to use more readily available NPK materials at least initially.

The guaranteed analyses on fertilizer labels list the amounts of phosphate (P2O5) and potash (K2O) in forms that are available to plants. Nitrogen is provided as total nitrogen, some of which is not immediately available to plants. In agricultural systems, most nitrogen is believed to be absorbed by plants in the mineral forms ammonium (NH4+) or nitrate (NO3-). We refer to these forms as plant-available nitrogen (PAN). Nitrogen in organic fertilizers is held in organic forms as proteins and amino acids. It must be mineralized to become readily available to plants. This process generally occurs as organic materials decompose.

The carbon:nitrogen (C:N) ratio of a raw material is probably the greatest single factor determining the rate of decomposition and mineralization. Microorganisms that consume organic fertilizer have a C:N ratio that ranges from about 10:1 to 15:1. If the C:N ratio in the organic material is below about 15:1, the material provides more nitrogen (hence protein) than the microorganisms need to develop and reproduce, so they excrete mineral forms of nitrogen that are easily taken up by plants.

If the C:N ratio is higher than about 20:1, the microorganisms supplement the protein in their food source with mineral nitrogen in the soil solution. They convert ammonium and nitrate-nitrogen into an organic form (proteins and amino acids) in their bodies, thus immobilizing the nitrogen that plants otherwise would use.

The amount of carbon in organic materials generally is about 40 percent, while the amount of nitrogen varies from less than 1 percent to more than 12 percent. This variation in nitrogen content has a greater influence on the C:N ratio than does carbon content. Therefore, total nitrogen content, as shown on fertilizer labels, can be used to estimate percent PAN. For an amendment with high levels of nonorganic material (e.g., compost made with soil), C:N ratio is probably more useful than total N in estimating PAN.

[IsaanAussie]

Oops...