Pension/bank Combo For Retirement Extension Rejected By Phibun

[elwood]

At Phibun this morning I was told that the combo method is not now accepted,;800,000 has to be either with income or as a bank deposit, no longer can it be combined.

The front desk lady, Bprahn, waited until her boss arrived to confirm this was now the case, which she did. The boss is a by-the-book jobsworth, albeit a polite one, but said she cannot help, despite my 16 years on annual extensions.

Bprahn was very apologetic, and she rightly pointed out that the front desk people are not happy having to face irate customers every time the rules change. She was very helpful, said we can change to a Marriage extension as we still have two weeks left on the current extension anyway to prepare things, and gave my wife a look at other applications and a list of requirements as a guide. Nice lady, not her fault that I am totally pissed off!

One thing that really gets to me is that my first few extensions were on a Marriage visa but, despite all that, I have to go through the gumph of supplying photos, map etc. AND, my wife has to explain why we didn't have kids together; presumably, if a couple are childless then maybe Korat will suspect it is a sham marriage eh?

Hope the above makes sense, maybe I should have waited until I had calmed down a little!

[Mario2008]

I have seen no policy change, but believe Phibun requires the money to be seasoned even in the case of the combined option. Which is not confirming the rules.

Suggest you call the government information hotline 1111, they will connect you with an English speaking immigration officer who can tell you the current rules. If need be they will call Phibun immigration and ask for an explanation and call you back.

[Lite Beer]

No new Police Order issued giving new rules.

Looks like someone is making their own rules

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect App

[fishhooks]

If true, surely this would be nationwide.

I mean, it looks as though it's reasonably easy for office's like KK to ignore the bank seasoning rules, but what's rumoured here is a very major change!

[elwood]

I have seen no policy change, but believe Phibun requires the money to be seasoned even in the case of the combined option. Which is not confirming the rules.

Suggest you call the government information hotline 1111, they will connect you with an English speaking immigration officer who can tell you the current rules. If need be they will call Phibun immigration and ask for an explanation and call you back.

Thanks Mario; I'm just off to my granddaughter's school for a party at the moment but will call that number later and let you know. I know that immigration offices have some leeway regarding rules and regulations but, as others have pointed out, this would be a major change. Not many Brit retirees capable of leaving 17,000 quid in a Thai bank for a retirement extension I would think!

Up until a year or so ago, Phibun was a great office to visit, with the chief officer actually leaning towards favouring the expat, as I personally found on a couple of occasions, but times change along with staff rotation!

[ubonjoe]

If you are going for the extension based upon marriage I can help with Phibuns requirements.

You will only need two photos of the house (2 sets). Both are outside one with you and the wife with house number shown and one from the street.

Original and copy of Kor Ror 2 marriage registry you get from the Amphoe.

The rest are the normal 2 copies of marriage certificate, wife's house book and ID card plus copies of your passport showing all visas and entry/permit to stay stamps stamps and extensions.

Two copies of proof of income or bank balance.

Two TM7's.

[elwood]

If you are going for the extension based upon marriage I can help with Phibuns requirements.

You will only need two photos of the house (2 sets). Both are outside one with you and the wife with house number shown and one from the street.

Original and copy of Kor Ror 2 marriage registry you get from the Amphoe.

The rest are the normal 2 copies of marriage certificate, wife's house book and ID card plus copies of your passport showing all visas and entry/permit to stay stamps stamps and extensions.

Two copies of proof of income or bank balance.

Two TM7's.

Thanks very much Joe, that's a help.

Now how about this for some weird thinking; it was noticed that my first entry, in January 1997, was on a Non-O 3-month visa, which I then extended to a 9-month Marriage visa to complete the year. So, when I apply for my new Marriage visa, they also wish to take a look at my original passport containing the 1997 entry, despite everything being in my file, which is maybe too heavy for them to carry! But, Gawd Bless 'em, at least they don't want photocopies of all my passports since then.

[Jingthing]

Certainly of relevant interest to retirees in that region. However, as already said, this does NOT reflect any kind of national rule change. No way. No how.

[elwood]

I have seen no policy change, but believe Phibun requires the money to be seasoned even in the case of the combined option. Which is not confirming the rules.

Suggest you call the government information hotline 1111, they will connect you with an English speaking immigration officer who can tell you the current rules. If need be they will call Phibun immigration and ask for an explanation and call you back.

Thanks Mario; I'm just off to my granddaughter's school for a party at the moment but will call that number later and let you know. I know that immigration offices have some leeway regarding rules and regulations but, as others have pointed out, this would be a major change. Not many Brit retirees capable of leaving 17,000 quid in a Thai bank for a retirement extension I would think!

Up until a year or so ago, Phibun was a great office to visit, with the chief officer actually leaning towards favouring the expat, as I personally found on a couple of occasions, but times change along with staff rotation!

I phoned 1111 - rather a strange conversation indeed. He confirmed that the rules allow for a combo method, but then he stated that officers can use their discretion as to whether or not to accept it, and being new people at Phibun, maybe they don't wish to, whereas the previous officers wanted to help me.

He also suggested that I call Phibun and ask to speak to the big boss and ask him to allow the application. Unfortunately this is rather pointless, as it was to the man upstairs that the lady called for confirmation as to whether to stuff me.

So, it's the Marriage visa route, and if that is too much of a pain, I guess it means Savannakhet/Savan Vegas!

Thanks to Mario and Joe for your replies.

Elwood

[Pormax]

I have seen no policy change, but believe Phibun requires the money to be seasoned even in the case of the combined option. Which is not confirming the rules.

Suggest you call the government information hotline 1111, they will connect you with an English speaking immigration officer who can tell you the current rules. If need be they will call Phibun immigration and ask for an explanation and call you back.

Thanks Mario; I'm just off to my granddaughter's school for a party at the moment but will call that number later and let you know. I know that immigration offices have some leeway regarding rules and regulations but, as others have pointed out, this would be a major change. Not many Brit retirees capable of leaving 17,000 quid in a Thai bank for a retirement extension I would think!

Up until a year or so ago, Phibun was a great office to visit, with the chief officer actually leaning towards favouring the expat, as I personally found on a couple of occasions, but times change along with staff rotation!

I phoned 1111 - rather a strange conversation indeed. He confirmed that the rules allow for a combo method, but then he stated that officers can use their discretion as to whether or not to accept it, and being new people at Phibun, maybe they don't wish to, whereas the previous officers wanted to help me.

He also suggested that I call Phibun and ask to speak to the big boss and ask him to allow the application. Unfortunately this is rather pointless, as it was to the man upstairs that the lady called for confirmation as to whether to stuff me.

So, it's the Marriage visa route, and if that is too much of a pain, I guess it means Savannakhet/Savan Vegas!

Thanks to Mario and Joe for your replies.

Elwood

So does this mean that immigration officials can use their discretion and make up their own laws on anything regarding visa applications without prior notification?

(No need for an answer on this because it seems they can)

Why have Embassies not been informed of this office's stance on this as they have to issue the letter which costs almost 2,500B and if not allowed to use the combo method it is a waste of time and money.

Some misinterpretation regarding seasoning of the money in the bank can be accepted but this is a major change in the law which should only be allowed by the Head of the Immigration Bureau in conjunction with Government policy.

I think if this spreads to other immigration offices many people will have big problems with getting a visa renewal.

This is becoming a right pain in the a*s.

[Jingthing]

Yes, but I really do think the vast MAJORITY of offices are following the national rules for this matter. Another wrinkle is there are offices which accept combo applications (this is the first case I've ever heard of accepting NO combo applications) but incorrectly insisting that the bank account portion be seasoned. That would be the more common issue.

[NancyL]

If I were Elwood, the OP, I'd ask for a meeting with the new big boss, in his office and arrive looking well-groomed. I'd act polite but perplexed, confused and in need of an explanation about the change in rules, not "totally pissed off" as he said he was when he received the news. (I probably would have been totally pissed off at the time, too, but would return for this second conversation.)

I'd point out how long I've worked with the excellent staff at his office, how long I've been married and suggest that maybe the combo method would be acceptable to him if the banked funds were seasoned for 90 days (i.e. "the Khon Kaen rules") I'd maybe try to look for common interests around his office -- check out the photos, ask about his kids, comment how your uncle was in Rotary, too -- whatever.

What's the worst that could happen? He might say yes. What's the worst that could happen -- marriage extension.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

A polite meeting, good idea. And perhaps take along a copy of the regs, in English for you, the Thai version for him, both copies highlighted and open to the same page. And just say, "I don't understand, what can I do to extend my visa now?" Then wait for his suggestion.

Mac

[transam]

A polite meeting, good idea. And perhaps take along a copy of the regs, in English for you, the Thai version for him, both copies highlighted and open to the same page. And just say, "I don't understand, what can I do to extend my visa now?" Then wait for his suggestion.

Mac

It's a near six foot bird.

[elwood]

If I were Elwood, the OP, I'd ask for a meeting with the new big boss, in his office and arrive looking well-groomed. I'd act polite but perplexed, confused and in need of an explanation about the change in rules, not "totally pissed off" as he said he was when he received the news. (I probably would have been totally pissed off at the time, too, but would return for this second conversation.)

I'd point out how long I've worked with the excellent staff at his office, how long I've been married and suggest that maybe the combo method would be acceptable to him if the banked funds were seasoned for 90 days (i.e. "the Khon Kaen rules") I'd maybe try to look for common interests around his office -- check out the photos, ask about his kids, comment how your uncle was in Rotary, too -- whatever.

What's the worst that could happen? He might say yes. What's the worst that could happen -- marriage extension.

Nice thoughts thanks. When I said I was totally pissed off, I didn't actually show it, thankfully! The front desk girl is very pleasant and only a buffer between the expat and the signatory of the visa, difficult to get angry with her. I did tell her immediate boss that I've had 16 years of excellent service from Phibun and a look at my files would show the letters that have been sent over the years, but she wasn't too impressed - maybe thinks that being friendly to expats is cissy eh?

Phibun has always looked for a 3-months seasoning for combos, just a little quirk and I believe most local expats were well aware of that. Believe me, acting perplexed was easy - no effort needed mate, as Thai Immigration does tend to bring that feeling on quite regularly don't you think?

They close after tomorrow for New Year and I won't be able to get there until 7th next month, but I certainly do intend to have a try at the Head Honcho; also, after dumping the pile of garbage required for a Marriage Visa I will ask the front desk couldn't they make it easier for themselves and give me the Retirement extension.

Thanks for the comments and all the best to you, enjoy the New Year festivities.

The well-groomed and immaculate Elwood.

PS: I did try to Like your comment but for some reason it didn't work - have you upset a moderator or something?

[NancyL]

Thank you for your kind words and more importantly, your jai yen about your situation. Don't worry -- I don't think you or I have upset a moderator. Thai Visa forum is just "acting recalcitrant" to use one of my Hubby's favorite descriptions when pets, the computer or a wife doesn't behave as he expected.

[evadgib]

@Pormax

Why have Embassies not been informed of this office's stance on this as they have to issue the letter which costs almost 2,500B and if not allowed to use the combo method it is a waste of time and money.

A solitary complaint to an Embassy is unlikely to have any effect but a dozen or so in quick succession probably will.

[fishhooks]

Okay, seems one has to accept the 3 month seasoning at K.K. for Combo's.

I hope simple question not having needed to do before:

I take it you are allowed to have varying balances during the last 3 months prior to the big renewal day?

Do they then take the lowest balance and back-date it 3 months and should this lowest balance added to the "Income Letter" totals the magic 800,000 you are okay!

In my case for the next renewal, the lowest balance over 3 months will be at least 650,000 cash in the bank and added to income will be well over 800,000!

[wpcoe]

Phibun has always looked for a 3-months seasoning for combos, just a little quirk and I believe most local expats were well aware of that. Believe me, acting perplexed was easy - no effort needed mate, as Thai Immigration does tend to bring that feeling on quite regularly don't you think?

Okay, so the list seems to be growing: Khon Kaen, Hua Hin and Phibun require funds-seasoning for the combo method. Sri Racha requires a medical certificate. Any more local non-standard idiosyncrasies to be aware of?

[Jingthing]

Okay, seems one has to accept the 3 month seasoning at K.K. for Combo's.

I hope simple question not having needed to do before:

I take it you are allowed to have varying balances during the last 3 months prior to the big renewal day?

Do they then take the lowest balance and back-date it 3 months and should this lowest balance added to the "Income Letter" totals the magic 800,000 you are okay!

In my case for the next renewal, the lowest balance over 3 months will be at least 650,000 cash in the bank and added to income will be well over 800,000!

My assumption which I think is probably correct (on enforcement of seasoning on combo applications).

Yes of course the balance can vary.

During the enforced seasoning period the lowest balance during that period would be added to the income amount and if over 800K, that would be acceptable. If the lowest balance plus the income was under 800K, that's a reject.

Assuming the above test was met, the final balance at time of application, matching the bank book and bank letter would be the amount used for calculation of the sum of funds recorded for the application, not the lowest balance plus income.

Note well, this is a discussion about enforcement of the small minority of offices that don't follow the correct national rule: no money seasoning required on combo applications.

[phuketrichard]

and phuket requires a letter from ur bank verifying ur income ( for Americans) using the embassy letter. But combo does not need seasoning, ( YET)

Why or why cant they just be universal with the requirements??? That's a rhetorical question btw as we all know if u have been here long enough , nothing makes sense.

[Maestro]

I phoned 1111 - rather a strange conversation indeed. He confirmed that the rules allow for a combo method, but then he stated that officers can use their discretion as to whether or not to accept it...

This information given to you by 1111 is clearly wrong and I suspect was given by an incompetent person.

[Maestro]

...A solitary complaint to an Embassy is unlikely to have any effect but a dozen or so in quick succession probably will.

The procedure to appeal against an unjust refusal of an application for extension of stay is spelt out in paragraph 4 of Thai Police Order 777/2551 and it does not involve embassies:

4. In the case where an applying alien does not meet the full qualifications stipulated by the criteria herein, the alien must be notified of the non-permission order and must depart from the Kingdom within seven days from the date following the date on which the permitted period has lapsed.

If the alien wishes to seek reconsideration of the non-permission order under Paragraph 1 herein, he may submit one petition only in writing, stating the reasons and necessity, to a competent officer equivalent to or higher than inspector for which a written order accepting such petition must be issued first. The petitioner may submit the application together with supporting documents for consideration simultaneously. The reconsideration must be completed within the period of time stated in Paragraph 1. During the reconsideration, competent officers must stamp permission allowing the alien seven business days from the submission date of the petition for reconsideration to wait for the result.

The above translation is perhaps not very good and reference to the original Thai text should be made.

[Thai Chi]

I phoned 1111 - rather a strange conversation indeed. He confirmed that the rules allow for a combo method, but then he stated that officers can use their discretion as to whether or not to accept it...

This information given to you by 1111 is clearly wrong and I suspect was given by an incompetent person.

Yes Maestro, you are correct on both accounts I feel.

There have been a few similar dramas at the Kap Choeng office of late reported on this and another forum.

As my retirement extension is due early in the new year I also called 1111 to clarify the requirements.

The answer I got was exactly as elwood stated.

[phuketrichard]

so please qualify,

Using the combo method the money does or does not need to seasoned?

[ubonjoe]

The rules in police order 777/2551 does not mention a seasoning period for money in the bank when using a combination of income and money in the bank.

But some immigration offices have been reported as requiring that money be in the bank for 3 months (2 for first application).

This topic is a about an immigration office that refused to accept the combination in its entirety,

[lopburi3]

The rules, as said, do not say such use would require seasoning (it may have been an oversight however). But under the new area management policy retirement extensions of stay are now a local decision.

[lounger]

Yes, but I really do think the vast MAJORITY of offices are following the national rules for this matter. Another wrinkle is there are offices which accept combo applications (this is the first case I've ever heard of accepting NO combo applications) but incorrectly insisting that the bank account portion be seasoned. That would be the more common issue.

A year or so ago Lopburi immig had the same attitude. I thought it was a big joke at the time but it caused big problems for an Australian caught in the net.

[Suradit69]

Certainly of relevant interest to retirees in that region. However, as already said, this does NOT reflect any kind of national rule change. No way. No how.

Yes, I got my annual extension at Chonburi about 3 weeks ago using the combination method. Sailed through as usual. No hint that there was any problem with that.

To the O/P I would be cautious about having someone in the head office call Phibun about your case. That could create more problems than it solves in future.

I take it you are allowed to have varying balances during the last 3 months prior to the big renewal day?

Do they then take the lowest balance and back-date it 3 months and should this lowest balance added to the "Income Letter" totals the magic 800,000 you are okay!

Remember the "magic 800,000" is a minimum and local officers are allowed to use their discretion with that as well.

[Suradit69]

@Pormax

Why have Embassies not been informed of this office's stance on this as they have to issue the letter which costs almost 2,500B and if not allowed to use the combo method it is a waste of time and money.

A solitary complaint to an Embassy is unlikely to have any effect but a dozen or so in quick succession probably will.

I don't think most embassies would want to get into advising on unwritten policy difference for each Immigration office in Thailand. If you ask them for a letter regarding income, the assumption is that you know what you are doing. If they started dispensing advice based on anecdotal reports they'd undoubtedly be wrong much of the time and invite more criticism for mishandling their unwanted role as nanny.