Elderly Man With Five Year Overstay

[Jingthing]

I am unwilling to help someone who has been cheating friends and family and family all his life: one day you need to pay !

Then don't.

The OP is clearly a good soul who does a lot of work to help out people in need. She asked for some practical advice to help out a specific expat in a crisis. I don't think she was seeking morality lectures to pass along to this man when he is so down. I ain't religious but you don't have to be to know it is a wonderful thing to help out other human beings in need ... without judging them.

[USNret]

A lot of posters have talked about what this gentleman did to get himself in this situation. Yet it seems like many others on TV have a strong chance of ending just like this one day. I hear constant chatter of money-based relationships, inability or disinterest in finding one good woman to be loyal to, using money foolishly either through reckless investments or wanton spending. Sure, it's none of my business; we can each do as we please. But look at yourself 20-30 years downstream (less, for some of us) and see if you won't one day be in this man's shoes.

[MAJIC]

Suspect nobody is interested in legalities (as with hospital not reporting) due to his age and condition so perhaps better to keep on back burner as he does not appear to have much of an option with return to home country even if able (although not sure if he would then have free treatment/housing perhaps)?

Certainly would be entitled to treatment, accommodation and shelter in UK.

As a non-resident he won't be entitled to treatment in the UK.

Not true!nobody in the UK get's refused Medical treatment,however long they have been away. nothing to do with residency,more to do with humanity!

Edited March 22, 2013 by MAJIC

[MAJIC]

I am unwilling to help someone who has been cheating friends and family and family all his life: one day you need to pay !

This thread loses me entirely. HOW in TF do you know he has been cheating friends and family - especially family back home?

And who can count on a Thai family who may have little themselves, even if they weren't just after the farang's money in the first place when he had some? Maybe the end of the ATM was the end of the family?

I have two adult children that I will never speak to again. My choice. They are alcoholics and drug addicts. I can't tell you how many times I tried to help, or how much serious cash I spent and loaned before I decided it wasn't helping. When I cut them off financially when the were about 40 years old, they stopped speaking to me which fit right in with my plans.

One of the primary reasons I want to move to Thailand is to escape family. So I will never be able to look back to family for help. They can't get themselves out of the fkn gutter.

People keep saying people should have insurance. If just one such expert here can tell me where I can get real medical insurance, even insurance that doesn't cover pre-existing conditions as a resident of Thailand, post it up. I dare you. I just turned 67. Go for it. Tell me.

So I must live in Thailand able to care for myself. I must not blow my money on any woman buying her a house or have kids or in any way jeopardize my savings and income. If I contacted my kids, they would beg for money, not offer money even if I was on my deathbed.

My friends are good yes, but after 20 years you lose track of them. Why would they do more than send me an airline ticket and offer me a couch for a while in 20 years? I can actually live on my social security and medicare in the US, so if I'm well enough to live, the best hope is to get back to the US, sleep on a couch until I can find a place, hook back up with medicare and die in the US.

My understanding is that to get a retirement visa in Thailand you have to have a good record in your home country, and money. If things go downhill from there my guess is that it was drugs or alcohol, or women who the guy succumbed to.

Don't be so hard on expats in Thailand who don't have a support system back home with family or friends. Those people may be part of the fkn reason they left the fkn place in the first place.

Good to see some in depth thought and compassion for the plight of others,no one knows what brought this old Guy to the level he's currently suffering. And nobody knows if they will end up in their twighlight years in a similar position. Never say it couldn't happen to me,life can deal out some cruel blows,you never knew existed! and even the know alls have their breaking point,only difference is they don't know it yet.

[MAJIC]

I am unwilling to help someone who has been cheating friends and family and family all his life: one day you need to pay !

Then don't.

The OP is clearly a good soul who does a lot of work to help out people in need. She asked for some practical advice to help out a specific expat in a crisis. I don't think she was seeking morality lectures to pass along to this man when he is so down. I ain't religious but you don't have to be to know it is a wonderful thing to help out other human beings in need ... without judging them.

How very right you are!

[MAJIC]

think I'd rather do a stretch in the monkey house than have to endure a british care home!

the fact that you prefaced that utterly stupid remark with "i think", redeems you in no way at all.

And a man with a reality problem!

[MAJIC]

Another one living the dream, sorry but he made his choice,

No room for discussion there,but how do you know what choices he had or not?

[ignis]

Don't be so hard on expats in Thailand who don't have a support system back home with family or friends. Those people may be part of the fkn reason they left the fkn place in the first place.

Some may well be this.........

Myself find that more and more every year both family and friends, are popping off like flies, some even 10 years or more younger than me have passed on... so far 3 in UK and 2 in Germany died this winter, 3 more are now in heath care places.. a Cousin 16 years younger + a place I was welcome to go back to if I ever needed to died in October., so any support [back home] is getting very thin

[Davedub]

Please don't take this the wrong way it's just a question.

What would an embassy do if someone was simply left on their premises with no ID, no money, nothing, except a passport of that country?

edit: as pointed out, a passport is, for all intensive purposes, the ultimate form of id. silly bluddy question really.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

most would not allow him on the premises in the first place.

there but for the grace of god go us all, but the irony here is many who write on these pages that they are glad to be shot of the nanny state, expect that same state to step up in times of trouble.

it is kind of like an atheist reverting to prayer when it all goes horribly wrong.

I think that's a bit harsh - the nanny state I'm personally glad to be rid of is the one that tells me what to eat, what to drink, how to raise my kids and other such intrusive, meddlesome interference.

The provision of basic healthcare, especially for the elderly, I'd wager is practically guaranteed in any western country, nanny state or not (with perhaps the exception of the States). It's hardly a case of 'the state stepping up' - it's more a case of a society employing basic humanity. The image of elderly people, likeable or not, being left to die outside a hospital is repugnant and is clearly not the mark of a civilised society.

I pray I'm not alone in this view!

[NancyL]

Just to clarify a few facts -- the man has a regular pension, but it isn't sufficient to justify a retirement visa. He has no savings.

He does have a passport and is from a European country with an Embassy in Bangkok, but no honorary consul here in CM. He went to that Embassy last year to get a new passport and they said nothing about his gross overstay -- just issued a new passport to replace his expiring passport. It is totally blank. He still has the old passport that shows his (limited) visa history.

I knew this post would generate many judgemental comments and hope it is causing some to reconsider how they live their lives. But, I'm also hoping for practical advise.

So far, one person (with some authority on this forum), recommended clearing the overstay at the local Immigration office before going to the airport and another (with direct similar experience, although not in CM) said definitely don't go to Immigration, but clear the overstay at the airport. Sigh! What to do?

Also, I appreciate the suggestion to keep leaning on the Embassy. They've been informed, in three emails and one phone call. So far, all they've done is key in on the overstay, saying the don't help people with legal troubles. His pension is sufficient where he can probably come up with 20,000 baht (provided the gov't hospital continue to supply free medical care). But, it's going to be another couple months for him to save up for the airfare. Perhaps his Embassy would loan the funds for the airfare, like the American Consulate would do in a similar situation.

Edited March 23, 2013 by NancyL

[machans88]

Suspect nobody is interested in legalities (as with hospital not reporting) due to his age and condition so perhaps better to keep on back burner as he does not appear to have much of an option with return to home country even if able (although not sure if he would then have free treatment/housing perhaps)?

Certainly would be entitled to treatment, accommodation and shelter in UK.

As a non-resident he won't be entitled to treatment in the UK.

I would like to remind all australians that this is the case for us as well

,if you have lived outside australia for longer than 183days of 2 consecutive years you are no longer entitled to medicare also if you are living off rental returns there is no tax threshold,you pay 39% of all of it.

This happened to me this year,and with all the govt link ups its hard to dodge

[endure]

Just to clarify a few facts -- the man has a regular pension, but it isn't sufficient to justify a retirement visa. He has no savings.

He does have a passport and is from a European country with an Embassy in Bangkok, but no honorary consul here in CM. He went to that Embassy last year to get a new passport and they said nothing about his gross overstay -- just issued a new passport to replace his expiring passport. It is totally blank. He still has the old passport that shows his (limited) visa history.

I knew this post would generate many judgemental comments and hope it is causing some to reconsider how they live their lives. But, I'm also hoping for practical advise.

So far, one person (with some authority on this forum), recommended clearing the overstay at the local Immigration office before going to the airport and another (with direct similar experience, although not in CM) said definitely don't go to Immigration, but clear the overstay at the airport. Sigh! What to do?

Also, I appreciate the suggestion to keep leaning on the Embassy. They've been informed, in three emails and one phone call. So far, all they've done is key in on the overstay, saying the don't help people with legal troubles. His pension is sufficient where he can probably come up with 20,000 baht (provided the gov't hospital continue to supply free medical care). But, it's going to be another couple months for him to save up for the airfare. Perhaps his Embassy would loan the funds for the airfare, like the American Consulate would do in a similar situation.

Does the country that he's from have any newspapers that delight in embarrassing their government? Couldn't you get a story in the news media of the country that he's from?

[ignis]

Has his Country got anything like a 'Citizens Advise Centre' ? maybe could get some help info on how things stand in his home country if he was to return.

[NeverSure]

"Does the country that he's from have any newspapers that delight in embarrassing their government? Couldn't you get a story in the news media of the country that he's from?"

With all due respect, I don't think the government should have to bail us out of our personal decisions. Most of us have governments that are spilling red ink trying to take care of everyone. We used to call it socialism, and with disdain. I look at deficits with disdain, even though I see them coming from socialism.

Where I was raised, I was told "make your bed and lie in it." I really don't want to pay for other people's decisions, and I don't expect them to pay for mine. Now, If I can make it back to US soil, I PAID for my social security for more than 50 years. I PAID for my medicare for the same time. Right out of my paychecks, or as a self employment tax that totaled about 14% of my gross income. 14% for 50 years. If that had gone into the bank with the magic of compound interest, I'd have a lot more than social security pays me.

But beyond what I paid for in a contract that is owed to me, I don't want any government handouts. I need to understand that I may just well die younger in Thailand than I would in the US.

[lopburi3]

From original post it appeared, and still does to me, that this person would not be able to travel by commercial means even if able to leave hospital. Is this wrong? All this talk of leaving; but OP painted a picture of a dying old man "It's doubtful he'll ever be well enough to survive the rigors of transport to Bangkok and IDC". It that is true there is no way he could safely travel around the world in his condition and I believe it would be better to use his pension to pay hospital and last stage care providers than overstay charges or plane fares for a flight he could not take. Immigration is not interested in making his life more difficult and hospital obviously is taking a humanitarian stand. There are times when 'legalization' has limitations and perhaps should not be the priority.

[BWPattaya]

Suspect nobody is interested in legalities (as with hospital not reporting) due to his age and condition so perhaps better to keep on back burner as he does not appear to have much of an option with return to home country even if able (although not sure if he would then have free treatment/housing perhaps)?

Certainly would be entitled to treatment, accommodation and shelter in UK.

Why? Nowhere does the OP says he is from the UK. A UK expat returnning to the UK isn't entitled either.

[Boyce]

I knew a guy who had a 2 year overstay, he told me i he ot caught before ho reached Bangkok Suvarnabhumi airport he would get a 40.000 Baht fine,once inside the airport the fine would be the maximum 20.000 Baht fine , and he only paid that 20.000 Baht , he just went to the check in with hes air ticket and they took him to an office and just asked for 20.000 Baht and sent him on his way,back to the uk this was only last march.

Now hes back in thailand on holiday , so no red stamp in his passport.

[dighambara]

Please don't take this the wrong way it's just a question.

What would an embassy do if someone was simply left on their premises with no ID, no money, nothing, except a passport of that country?

It is the responsibility of the host country. Don't expect your own embassy to hold your hand, you must make your own arrangements. Having things like health insurence, people who can help you in case you are sick etc is something you must consider if you want to live her, just like living in any other country.

Some people with Thai wifes/family will become demented and lose their ability to communicate with them in Thai and only start speaking in their own language. It are things you must prepare for, just as you must prepare a will for when you die.

Major difficulty - Thai folks have no understanding of those processes.

My wife often goes with me to immigration, but does not fully understand the reason behind all the folderol. For that matter neither do I. Immigration here is 'much ado about nothing'... i.e. prove what you proved last year, and the last 10 years.

In most countries, I would have received a permanent resident permit long ago, but Thai law requires a huge bribe to apply, with little likelyood of receiving permanent residence. Six million long term visas and only 100 applicants per country - max 20,000 applications per year - nominally 300 years until your name comes up.

I have medical insurance - as primary caretaker, I am required to sign the forms. If sick, I would need to get well to submit the paperwork.

If elderly and incapacitated - what would happen..?? No way to plan for all contingencies possible in an unknown future.

[Mario2008]

Immigration is not too bordered about people too old to come to their office in person. There are no official instructions, but they will handle it their way and allow someone else to submit the application or even ignore that that person exist.

[comserve]

Suspect nobody is interested in legalities (as with hospital not reporting) due to his age and condition so perhaps better to keep on back burner as he does not appear to have much of an option with return to home country even if able (although not sure if he would then have free treatment/housing perhaps)?

I agree that nobody is concerned about the overstay.

If necessary, find him a small rental accommodation which he should be able to pay with using his pension.

Also find a Thai lady who he can pay to do his shopping & look after him.

Why send him back to his home country. He would live much more comfortably here in Thailand.

If the authorities don't do anything, then let the overstay be as they are. If you go to immigration they will probably be forced to incaserate him & arrange for deportation.

LET SLEEPING DOGS LIE!

[crazykopite]

I know of a number of farangs on overstay one for over 15 years if your caught you pay 20,000 baht. One of these chaps paid his 20 k went back to the UK got some medical treatment and 6 months later came back sadly he passed away within 9 months of his return from the UK and was cremated in the local temple I did hear last year that there was a farang in the freezer box at the local hospital for nearly a year as no one has come forward to claim him my understanding is at some stage his Embassy will be obliged to get it sorted as he cannot be kept there for ever I would suggest that you let sleeping dogs lie when it comes to this man and his overstay it seems that the hospital is not to concerned about how he will pay his debt so why should you worry as it is not your problem , however it is good to know that there are a few good samaritans about !!!!!

[HerbalEd]

I know this sounds cold, but it appears that this individual has over the years consciously burned his bridges to his home country and family, used up his friends generosity and has generally ignored any responsibilities to himself and his own well being, somehow counting on others to shoulder the burden of his care when the time came.

Why should the Thai health care system or his home country including embassy or his family or any good hearted people fall all over themselves to help this man. He make very selfish choices and now the consequences of his own irresponsibility are upon him.

While what you say my sound hard and cold, I have to agree here. It's not like he didn't know what he's been doing ... which is gaming the system and his friends. And I think the fact that his family, friends and GF aren't willing to help him says a lot about what kind of person he is. You reap what you sow.

Edited March 23, 2013 by HerbalEd

[rct99q]

Is he or has he any connections with armed forces in his home country.

Check out christian organizations and any affiliates in his home country. Some will offer assistance. Try and contact helpage.org they may have connections in the community.

Ask at the hospitals. I have on previous occasions used them as a reference in getting assistance. Especially if he has a small income. They can make arrangements as it is in their best interest to assist if they hope to get any money back from him.

Embassies functions are not to assist people in dire need as a result of their own neglect. They provide assistance in emergency situations etc. As a side note an expat living in Thailand should be registered with their Embassy.

But try contacting care services in his home country. Again many organizations that are associated with the armed forces (even if he was never in the armed forces) have outreach programs for those in dire need.

International Red Cross - may not be able to help but they are great resources of information

Unicef International - same thing have great contacts in the local communities and may be able to provide some contacts.

US Peace Corps - again maybe no direct assistance but many peace corps volunteers are entrenched in the local communities and have access to people that can possibly assist with care giving.

Good Luck.....have knocked on many doors in my short time period here in trying to assist those that become difficult to care for. You are doing a good thing.

[samuibeachcomber]

This makes me think back to when I was in my 20's and I was helping a friend lay some tiles in an old people's home in Australia. There was an old man laying in bed crying and calling for his son over and over again. It was terrible! The rest of the residents were just sat staring off into space.

At the time I was just glad to be out of there but now I am in my early 50's it does make me wonder from time to time what it would be like to be old and frail in Thailand...

better than being old and frail in your home country!warm climate cheap food and yes compassionate thais.I would rather take my chances here.this can happen to any of us...........and when your times up its up.I have seen first hand many a thai lady/family helping to take care of fragile old farangs that simply by their actions in life do not deserve the kindness.but who's to judge really.If i was this guy i would sit tight and try and pay off the hospital bill with his pension,lay low under the radar regarding immigration issues and stay out of hospital,it will eat all yor money up eventually...............and we all have to go sometime,but somehow i would want to help the thai family/girlfriend who is still helping me.

[FBN]

From original post it appeared, and still does to me, that this person would not be able to travel by commercial means even if able to leave hospital. Is this wrong? All this talk of leaving; but OP painted a picture of a dying old man "It's doubtful he'll ever be well enough to survive the rigors of transport to Bangkok and IDC". It that is true there is no way he could safely travel around the world in his condition and I believe it would be better to use his pension to pay hospital and last stage care providers than overstay charges or plane fares for a flight he could not take. Immigration is not interested in making his life more difficult and hospital obviously is taking a humanitarian stand. There are times when 'legalization' has limitations and perhaps should not be the priority.

Agree with Lop here. With all due respect to the OP's good intentions, it may result in this poor chap ending up in a far worse situation he is in now. Frankly, it does not appear that there is a problem right now; the hospital seems to be fine with the situation and he has a pension that could be applied to any medical costs. An airline would require a medical clearance if a passenger travels from a hospital admission and, if they do require a medical escort, this is clearly out of the question. The problem is once this process is initiated it won't be possible to stop.

[JDGRUEN]

I am unwilling to help someone who has been cheating friends and family and family all his life: one day you need to pay !

This thread loses me entirely. HOW in TF do you know he has been cheating friends and family - especially family back home?

And who can count on a Thai family who may have little themselves, even if they weren't just after the farang's money in the first place when he had some? Maybe the end of the ATM was the end of the family?

I have two adult children that I will never speak to again. My choice. They are alcoholics and drug addicts. I can't tell you how many times I tried to help, or how much serious cash I spent and loaned before I decided it wasn't helping. When I cut them off financially when the were about 40 years old, they stopped speaking to me which fit right in with my plans.

One of the primary reasons I want to move to Thailand is to escape family. So I will never be able to look back to family for help. They can't get themselves out of the fkn gutter.

People keep saying people should have insurance. If just one such expert here can tell me where I can get real medical insurance, even insurance that doesn't cover pre-existing conditions as a resident of Thailand, post it up. I dare you. I just turned 67. Go for it. Tell me.

So I must live in Thailand able to care for myself. I must not blow my money on any woman buying her a house or have kids or in any way jeopardize my savings and income. If I contacted my kids, they would beg for money, not offer money even if I was on my deathbed.

My friends are good yes, but after 20 years you lose track of them. Why would they do more than send me an airline ticket and offer me a couch for a while in 20 years? I can actually live on my social security and medicare in the US, so if I'm well enough to live, the best hope is to get back to the US, sleep on a couch until I can find a place, hook back up with medicare and die in the US.

My understanding is that to get a retirement visa in Thailand you have to have a good record in your home country, and money. If things go downhill from there my guess is that it was drugs or alcohol, or women who the guy succumbed to.

Don't be so hard on expats in Thailand who don't have a support system back home with family or friends. Those people may be part of the fkn reason they left the fkn place in the first place.

I will add to your fine summation ... that some of us may also outlive much of the collection of family and friends back home... And as was well said in other ways - estrangement with children, nieces and nephews, etc. could well be their fault - not the fault of the Expat living in Thailand.

[JDGRUEN]

In the U.S. there is an industry selling just burial insurance. For over age 50 there are policies with not medical checkup required. The premium is about one dollar a day. Keep paying and it cannot be canceled. These policies are good up to age 100. The payout ranges widely but often is 10k and up. Younger people can get term life or whole life for much less. Three hundred sixty-five dollars a year will seem like too much to some people... But it is good reassurance that things will get handled in the end. Is there insurance of this nature available in Thailand? Not the optimum solution - but it is a workable partial solution to problems like OP cites.

Edited March 23, 2013 by JDGRUEN

[JannoDL]

I am unwilling to help someone who has been cheating friends and family and family all his life: one day you need to pay !

Then don't.

The OP is clearly a good soul who does a lot of work to help out people in need. She asked for some practical advice to help out a specific expat in a crisis. I don't think she was seeking morality lectures to pass along to this man when he is so down. I ain't religious but you don't have to be to know it is a wonderful thing to help out other human beings in need ... without judging them.

Some people just dont have compassion in their hearts...

Good luck with this Nancy, sorry i dont have advice to give...

[rickthailand]

as an ex-drinking friend of the older gentleman in question i would like to clear up some things.

Firstly the older man is from the netherlands and for the last 5 years that we have all known him

he has lied, cheated and fabricated everything.

he told everyone he is a very rich man who sold his business in holland before coming

to thailand. he met a lovely thai woman who took care of him for 3 years( non financial) he told us and her

that he has no children and that his ex-wive died of cancer in holland. in the last 4 years we sort

of realized that all his stories were lies but we still socialized with him even when he could have a temper

when he was drinlking.

when he got into the motorbike accident we tried to find his family through facebook and got in contact

with his sister, she told us many not so nice stories about him and brought us in contact with his 3

children!!!! they all want nothing to do with him for reasons i wont get into. also his exwife never had

cancer, he did a runner from holland with loads of debts to government and friends.

he has lied to us that he had a retirement visa wich also turns out to be a lie.

i dont wish him harm but i made the decision that i want nothing to do with him as have his other

"drinking friends"and the thai family that was really good to him

rick

[Tafia]

Suspect nobody is interested in legalities (as with hospital not reporting) due to his age and condition so perhaps better to keep on back burner as he does not appear to have much of an option with return to home country even if able (although not sure if he would then have free treatment/housing perhaps)?

Certainly would be entitled to treatment, accommodation and shelter in UK.

As a non-resident he won't be entitled to treatment in the UK.

Not true!nobody in the UK get's refused Medical treatment,however long they have been away. nothing to do with residency,more to do with humanity!

You think so - Read This

http://www.heathrowtravelcare.co.uk/index.php/general-advice-for-british-nationals-returning-to-the-uk-from-abroad/