Fined 15,000 Baht For "smuggling"

[Andre0720]

Appears to me from what I have read here, is that:

if you are out trying to save a bit of money, someone out there will try to make sure you do not succeed...

[jackspratt]

whats the topic again wife,bike or smuggling,i need a laydown now

The topic is "Did the OP smuggle 5 cartons of cigarettes from Cambodia into Thailand"?

The answer - based on his OP - is clearly Yes.

No it is not!

smug·gle

/ˈsməgəl/

Verb

1. Move (goods) illegally into or out of a country:
2. Convey (someone or something) somewhere secretly and illicitly.

No goods were illegally conveyed into Thailand.! The goods brought in were within each persons duty free quota! Each person (as they always are) was vetted on leaving Cambodia by Cambodian immigration to ensure they had not more than their allowance

Oh well .................... now you have found a dictionary definition of "smuggling", I will defer to your greater knowledge on the subject.

Given that the goods were not (apparently) imported into Thailand with intent to defraud the Thai revenue, perhaps you could try it next time you come into Thailand.

[Jingo]

I have to weigh in on the "not smuggling" side, since the quantities are within the limits and were not secretly transported. That said, you yourself don't smoke because you recognize it's harmful effects I presume, so that you got punished with a fine for helping other people kill themselves is not so bad (morally speaking though the law itself isn't designed for this purpose).

My friends often ask me to bring back duty free cigs or do similar things and I refuse simply because I can't view it as a gift or "helping" them to get them "bulk" death-sticks on the cheap, I'd feel I'm hurting them more than helping. But I guess since marijuana sadly remains illegal everywhere there isn't much of a legal alternative to give people.

Just seize on this as an excuse to not be your friend's mule bringing them the tool that quickens their demise.

[prakhonchai nick]

whats the topic again wife,bike or smuggling,i need a laydown now

The topic is "Did the OP smuggle 5 cartons of cigarettes from Cambodia into Thailand"?

The answer - based on his OP - is clearly Yes.

No it is not!

smug·gle

/ˈsməgəl/

Verb

1. Move (goods) illegally into or out of a country:
2. Convey (someone or something) somewhere secretly and illicitly.

No goods were illegally conveyed into Thailand.! The goods brought in were within each persons duty free quota! Each person (as they always are) was vetted on leaving Cambodia by Cambodian immigration to ensure they had not more than their allowance

Oh well .................... now you have found a dictionary definition of "smuggling", I will defer to your greater knowledge on the subject.

Given that the goods were not (apparently) imported into Thailand with intent to defraud the Thai revenue, perhaps you could try it next time you come into Thailand.

Perhaps Mr Spratt, you would care to enlighten us as to why you have formed your opinion that Cardholder was guilty of smuggling. Maybe you are or were an incognito customs officer! The briefest of knowledge is required to know what smuggling is. It either is or it isn't, No 2 ways about it.

I have used the same border market crossing several times, and each time, (with my fellow car passengers) have bought in what we are allowed to - each for their own personal use - ..........and there is a large sign clearly indicating what may be bought in! I have seen 2 narks/snitches watching, and am told there are at least 4. Only an idiot would try to bring in more than allowed -and Cardholder did not!

I will continue to do so! Maybe you would care to come along too! Cardholder, I am sure would want to join us!

[jackspratt]

.

Perhaps Mr Spratt, you would care to enlighten us as to why you have formed your opinion that Cardholder was guilty of smuggling. Maybe you are or were an incognito customs officer! The briefest of knowledge is required to know what smuggling is. It either is or it isn't, No 2 ways about it.

Post #38 has already answered your question - together with the admissions made in the OP of course.

Believe me or not - I do have more than your average citizen's knowledge about "smuggling".

Edited May 13, 2013 by jackspratt

[hadi8253]

Chong Chom.

I went there for 90 days.

Did not leave Thailand / cross the border

Bought 3 cartons of Marlboro cigaretts (250 B for 1) on Thai - side

Drove back

At Prakonchai intersection with 24 had to stop at red light.

Custom officals came across and asked me if I bougth cigarettes - yes

follow this car

At the customs building Prakonchai they explaned me: 1 carton only ...

I tried to explain: I did not smuggel this cartons into Thailand, I bought it on Thai territory

OK, if you do not pay now, we go to court ...

15000 B and the cigarettes have gone (tried to get 1 carton back - no way)

There were more then 20 officals working in this building

Everything clearly documented in English - I got a receipt

I have seen the "book" and the confiscated stuff - also Thais were fined ...

I was informed: Now we (the customs) do not inform police (immigration)

Not interested to become blacklisted due to this "accident"

Still sure: No scam ! The law ... in this case was enforced (also the amount - if I remember 400% of normal duty - I could use a calculater ...)

There are Thais hanging around, they get paid if they see you buying then call the customs about your car number ...

That's it

[kevvy]

never stop learning in the land of smiles LOS really more like the land of scams LOS

[cardholder]

Chong Chom.

I went there for 90 days.

Did not leave Thailand / cross the border

Bought 3 cartons of Marlboro cigaretts (250 B for 1) on Thai - side

Drove back

At Prakonchai intersection with 24 had to stop at red light.

Custom officals came across and asked me if I bougth cigarettes - yes

follow this car

At the customs building Prakonchai they explaned me: 1 carton only ...

I tried to explain: I did not smuggel this cartons into Thailand, I bought it on Thai territory

OK, if you do not pay now, we go to court ...

15000 B and the cigarettes have gone (tried to get 1 carton back - no way)

There were more then 20 officals working in this building

Everything clearly documented in English - I got a receipt

I have seen the "book" and the confiscated stuff - also Thais were fined ...

I was informed: Now we (the customs) do not inform police (immigration)

Not interested to become blacklisted due to this "accident"

Still sure: No scam ! The law ... in this case was enforced (also the amount - if I remember 400% of normal duty - I could use a calculater ...)

There are Thais hanging around, they get paid if they see you buying then call the customs about your car number ...

That's it

As this is my 4,000th post on Thai Visa, i will make it my last on this subject.

Your situation, hadi8253, was arguably worse than mine. In my case it was a calculated purchase to operate in what I believed to be the legal import limits. To expand on Prakhonchai Nicks point earlier, there are actually Cambodian AND Thai officials at the 'border point' and I would say it was physically impossible for an individual to take out more than their 'allowances'. My error of judgement/naivety was not thinking through the implications once we were on the Thai. In my mind there was nothing to consider because no laws had been broken.

In your case it was a straight forward 'stitch up' to the point of you being 'induced' to buy something beyond the legal limits. Your argument that you bought them on Thai soil would have fallen on the same deaf ears that my '5 people, 5 cartons' argument did.

I had, and still have, the feeling that I was 'wronged'. In your case I would be even more bitter.

The whole point of my story, and yours, is one of caution for others. We have been done, paid up, moved on. There is no excuse for anyone reading this thread to be caught the same way. The message is simple - it doesn't matter how you came across the ciggies DO NOT get caught in possession of more than one carton per person on your travels.

For the record I believe that duty is 850 Baht per carton and the fine is 10x the duty. In my case I was accused of having 3 cartons too many = 3 x 9,350 = approx 28,000 Baht. My missus did extremely well to get away with 14,355 Baht.... a small mercy .

Oh - they also let us keep 2 cartons......

Thanks for sharing your story - obviously total fantasy if you believe some of the earlier posters. It only happened in your head

[itchybum]

$500 up in smoke.

[barrybankruad]

I.m afraid I have to side with Jacksprat on this one. The OP's intent when HE purchased the cigarettes was then to evade any duties that may be payable to Customs upon entry into Thailand. It makes no difference whether he was caught at the border or later.

He used his wife and family to bring the goods into the Country pretending that the purchases were for their personal use. They clearly were not, that is why he was penalised. It also makes no difference what he intended to do with them, whether to use personally, sell or give away. It was He who purchased the goods with intent of importing them without paying any duty that may be liable.

Nevertheless I'm sure that all of us who use this market facility are grateful to CH for posting here warning us of the possible dangers, so that we may be more careful when we go there.

[illdietryin]

No you weren't fined.

You were extorted by Thai government officials, or Thai extortioners most likely acting with official protection.

TIT... However, when it's all boiled down (unless the other members of the party did indeed take the share of the goodies that they had brought over the border) you did, in fact, albeit in a round about manner, smuggle the stuff in, didn't you? Perhaps you forgot to give your conspirators a bit of kanom for their assistance and say 'Thank You'...

[belg]

something to be learned: smoking cost you more than your health

lol

[lemoncake]

I.m afraid I have to side with Jacksprat on this one. The OP's intent when HE purchased the cigarettes was then to evade any duties that may be payable to Customs upon entry into Thailand. It makes no difference whether he was caught at the border or later.

He used his wife and family to bring the goods into the Country pretending that the purchases were for their personal use. They clearly were not, that is why he was penalised. It also makes no difference what he intended to do with them, whether to use personally, sell or give away. It was He who purchased the goods with intent of importing them without paying any duty that may be liable.

Nevertheless I'm sure that all of us who use this market facility are grateful to CH for posting here warning us of the possible dangers, so that we may be more careful when we go there.

So every time someone buys bottle or cigs or perfume or chocolate with intent to give to someone else is a crime?

Every time someone buys from duty free and receives tax refund while going on holidays with intent to return in 2 weeks also breaking the law?

OP and his family brought in an allowed amount of goods. What they did with it afterwards is noones business. It was not sold over the counter at some shop but dealt with in a private manner.

[barrybankruad]

If the 'importer' had purchased the legal limit of duty free goods, then what he did with them after importation is immaterial. You seem to forget what was the INTENT of the OP when he bought the excess amount of cigarettes. HE bought them, then to avoid paying the excess duty distributed them amongst his family to pass through customs. He himself admits he made the mistake of collecting the cartons together whereupon he was caught with them. His INTENT was always to break the law.

[sammycic]

If the 'importer' had purchased the legal limit of duty free goods, then what he did with them after importation is immaterial. You seem to forget what was the INTENT of the OP when he bought the excess amount of cigarettes. HE bought them, then to avoid paying the excess duty distributed them amongst his family to pass through customs. He himself admits he made the mistake of collecting the cartons together whereupon he was caught with them. His INTENT was always to break the law.

barry,barry, get real for god's sake he was set up and ripped off as was the INTENT of the custom officials.

some posters on here make me ashamed to be an expat.

[cardholder]

If the 'importer' had purchased the legal limit of duty free goods, then what he did with them after importation is immaterial. You seem to forget what was the INTENT of the OP when he bought the excess amount of cigarettes. HE bought them, then to avoid paying the excess duty distributed them amongst his family to pass through customs. He himself admits he made the mistake of collecting the cartons together whereupon he was caught with them. His INTENT was always to break the law.

OK Barry, you win - you have drawn me out of self-imposed conclusion on this thread thread.

Having met you, I didn't have you down as a < flame removed >. However, you are now doing your best to prove to me that first impressions are NOT always right,.

1. There is usually NO LIMIT top the amount of booze or fags you can buy in a country. Only duty free shops set limits.

2. The law relates to the import of goods to Thailand.

3. Intent is not a legal offence.

My missus bought two wooden handles (for garden tools) and had to pass one to me (at the insistence of a 'border official') as we exited Cambodia/entered Thailand. I have absolutely no intention of using the wooden handle - does that mean she, or I, have committed an offence ?

Edited May 14, 2013 by metisdead
Post edited to remove flame, be civil!

[prakhonchai nick]

.

Perhaps Mr Spratt, you would care to enlighten us as to why you have formed your opinion that Cardholder was guilty of smuggling. Maybe you are or were an incognito customs officer! The briefest of knowledge is required to know what smuggling is. It either is or it isn't, No 2 ways about it.

Post #38 has already answered your question - together with the admissions made in the OP of course.

Believe me or not - I do have more than your average citizen's knowledge about "smuggling".

Noted.

We will agree to disagree.

[prakhonchai nick]

If the 'importer' had purchased the legal limit of duty free goods, then what he did with them after importation is immaterial. You seem to forget what was the INTENT of the OP when he bought the excess amount of cigarettes. HE bought them, then to avoid paying the excess duty distributed them amongst his family to pass through customs. He himself admits he made the mistake of collecting the cartons together whereupon he was caught with them. His INTENT was always to break the law.

We have an expert on smuggling and now a Mor-Do.

How on earth do you know what was in the mind of Cardholder?

[longstebe]

     If the 'importer' had purchased the legal limit of duty free goods, then what he did with them after importation is immaterial. You seem to forget what was the INTENT of the OP when he bought the excess amount of cigarettes. HE bought them, then to avoid paying the excess duty distributed them amongst his family to pass through customs. He himself admits he made the mistake of collecting the cartons together whereupon he was caught with them. His INTENT was always to break the law.

I'd love to go for a bevvy with you, I'd be in for a great night.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[prakhonchai nick]

If the 'importer' had purchased the legal limit of duty free goods, then what he did with them after importation is immaterial. You seem to forget what was the INTENT of the OP when he bought the excess amount of cigarettes. HE bought them, then to avoid paying the excess duty distributed them amongst his family to pass through customs. He himself admits he made the mistake of collecting the cartons together whereupon he was caught with them. His INTENT was always to break the law.

There are no customs upon entering Thailand at this location.

Upon leaving Cambodia, everyone is filtered into a narrow lane, and the Cambodian immigration/customs inspect to see what everyone has bought. If over the limit you either cannot pass -or as Cardholder said earlier, items have to be distributed amongst others.

After that it is a walk to the car and departure.

No customs - no green or red lane - nothing. The Cambodian officials have already ensured that what you crossed with was within the law!

[Thaddeus]

If the 'importer' had purchased the legal limit of duty free goods, then what he did with them after importation is immaterial. You seem to forget what was the INTENT of the OP when he bought the excess amount of cigarettes. HE bought them, then to avoid paying the excess duty distributed them amongst his family to pass through customs. He himself admits he made the mistake of collecting the cartons together whereupon he was caught with them. His INTENT was always to break the law.

I'd love to go for a bevvy with you, I'd be in for a great night.

And you could ask him where he gets his viagra from.

(sin, stones, etc)

Edited May 14, 2013 by Thaddeus

[prakhonchai nick]

Last week I bought 8 cans of beer -YES I bought them and paid for them. I then gave 4 to my wife to carry through.

Did I smuggle through 4 cans of beer?

No I did not, because my wife likes to drink Angkor beer with me at home.

But it makes sense for 1 person to buy and pay at the outset!

[jackspratt]

If the 'importer' had purchased the legal limit of duty free goods, then what he did with them after importation is immaterial. You seem to forget what was the INTENT of the OP when he bought the excess amount of cigarettes. HE bought them, then to avoid paying the excess duty distributed them amongst his family to pass through customs. He himself admits he made the mistake of collecting the cartons together whereupon he was caught with them. His INTENT was always to break the law.

We have an expert on smuggling and now a Mor-Do.

How on earth do you know what was in the mind of Cardholder?

Umm........ from the OP:

.

They are VERY strict on what you can take out and each individual has

their bags checked to ensure that the carton of fags, 4 cans of beer, 1

bottle of liiquor etc is not exceeded.

I took the missus, 2 sisters, a friend and two kids. Five adults.

I did what I have done before - bought 20 cans of Angkor (packed 4 per

bag) and 5 cartons of Marlborough lights - also packed in individual

bags. When we left each adult took out their allotted allowance.

Clearly his intent was to evade Thai customs duty - which is breaking the law.

This thread reminds me of the one on TV a few years ago, where a number of guys were legally busted by Thai Excise officers at Swampy, for vastly exceeding their ciggy allowances. They were duly fined the amount prescribed by Thai law, and sent on their way.

Again, the number of aggrieved TVF expats and "legal experts" who were crying "extortion", "rip off" etc etc was a sight to behold.

And BTW - I don't believe Cambodian Immigration and/or Customs have a mandate to enforce Thai customs laws.

[prakhonchai nick]

And BTW - I don't believe Cambodian Immigration and/or Customs have a mandate to enforce Thai customs laws.

I am sure they do not.

But if they see 5 adult people pass through with 5 cartons of cigarettes, and that is within the laws of both countries, and Thai customs do not double check once back on Thai soil across from Cambodia, it has to be assumed all is in order.

The cigarettes were carried through from Cambodia to Thailand in strict conformity with the laws of both countries.

What one or more of the 5 adults intended doing with them later is irrelevant -or should be.

If I bring back perfume for the wife or chocolates for the kids or a bottle of whisky for the abbot at the local wat - am I smuggling them because they are not for my personal use?

[boloa]

So what you are say then PN, if I got 100 people to go to the Cambodian Market ,buy 100 packets of ciggies and 400 cans of beer,pay for them and then distribute them amongst the 100 ,then get them to cross the boarder and then hand me over the good I wouldn't be smuggling.????

Whether it's 5 cartons of ciggies distribute amongst 5 people or whether its 50 ,100 or 500 its still the same.....Smuggling!!!

Rules are made to be broken and unluckily for Cardholder he was busted.

I like many others would like to say a big 'Thumbs-up ' for Cardholder posting about this indecent so others don't fall into breaking the tight rules on duty-free allowances and how they are allocated.

[prakhonchai nick]

So what you are say then PN, if I got 100 people to go to the Cambodian Market ,buy 100 packets of ciggies and 400 cans of beer,pay for them and then distribute them amongst the 100 ,then get them to cross the boarder and then hand me over the good I wouldn't be smuggling.????

Whether it's 5 cartons of ciggies distribute amongst 5 people or whether its 50 ,100 or 500 its still the same.....Smuggling!!!

Rules are made to be broken and unluckily for Cardholder he was busted.

I like many others would like to say a big 'Thumbs-up ' for Cardholder posting about this indecent so others don't fall into breaking the tight rules on duty-free allowances and how they are allocated.

You raise an interesting point BOLOA.

I think it would be rather indiscrete of you to be seen to buy all the ciggies and beer, and then distribute them before exiting Cambodia.

However if each of the 100 people each with their own money (yours if you give them in advance) buy 1 carton of ciggies, 4 cans of beer, and leave Cambodia individually, enter Thailand and then depart as they came, meeting up with you later away from the border and distributing their goodies I would not regard that as smuggling.

Each of the 100 people was utilising their own duty free allowance. None passed over the border with more than they were individually allowed. What crime have they committed? None!

Once back home their purchases were theirs to do with as they like! They choose to give them to you. Another crime.NO!

100 people are entitled to 100 cartons of ciggies. No duty payment has been evaded!

Edited May 14, 2013 by prakhonchai nick

[longstebe]

So what you are say then PN, if I got 100 people to go to the Cambodian Market ,buy 100 packets of ciggies and 400 cans of beer,pay for them and then distribute them amongst the 100 ,then get them to cross the boarder and then hand me over the good I wouldn't be smuggling.????

Whether it's 5 cartons of ciggies distribute amongst 5 people or whether its 50 ,100 or 500 its still the same.....Smuggling!!!

Rules are made to be broken and unluckily for Cardholder he was busted.

I like many others would like to say a big 'Thumbs-up ' for Cardholder posting about this indecent so others don't fall into breaking the tight rules on duty-free allowances and how they are allocated.  

If that 1 person is carrying more than he/she is allowed over the border then that is classed as smuggling.

Back to the facts......

The OP was NOT carrying more than his allowances.

You can go on all day about his intentions.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[boloa]

W

So what you are say then PN, if I got 100 people to go to the Cambodian Market ,buy 100 packets of ciggies and 400 cans of beer,pay for them and then distribute them amongst the 100 ,then get them to cross the boarder and then hand me over the good I wouldn't be smuggling.????

Whether it's 5 cartons of ciggies distribute amongst 5 people or whether its 50 ,100 or 500 its still the same.....Smuggling!!!

Rules are made to be broken and unluckily for Cardholder he was busted.

I like many others would like to say a big 'Thumbs-up ' for Cardholder posting about this indecent so others don't fall into breaking the tight rules on duty-free allowances and how they are allocated.

You raise an interesting point BOLOA.

I think it would be rather indiscrete of you to be seen to buy all the ciggies and beer, and then distribute them before exiting Cambodia.

However if each of the 100 people each with their own money (yours if you give them in advance) buy 1 carton of ciggies, 4 cans of beer, and leave Cambodia individually, enter Thailand and then depart as they came, meeting up with you later away from the border and distributing their goodies I would not regard that as smuggling.

Each of the 100 people was utilising their own duty free allowance. None passed over the border with more than they were individually allowed. What crime have they committed? None!

Once back home their purchases were theirs to do with as they like! They choose to give them to you. Another crime.NO!

100 people are entitled to 100 cartons of ciggies. No duty payment has been evaded!

Everything you are saying is true PN !!!

You seem to be forgetting on point ,the 100 people are then handing over their allowance to the smuggler.......that's why its called Smuggling

[jackspratt]

.

However if each of the 100 people each with their own money (yours if you give them in advance) buy 1 carton of ciggies, 4 cans of beer, and leave Cambodia individually, enter Thailand and then depart as they came, meeting up with you later away from the border and distributing their goodies I would not regard that as smuggling.

Correct.

However, if "you" gave them money for the purpose of buying 1 carton each, but to give to you once back in Thailand, the ciggies would not be theirs'.

And if the intention was to evade customs duty, that is smuggling.

Edit: for longstebe - intention is exactly the point.

[prakhonchai nick]

Many interesting and differing points of view.

We will all no doubt stick to our guns. One thing is certain however and that is Customs will do whatever they want.

Let this be a lesson to us all.

Caveat Emptor!