Saving Face - Thailands Biggest Problem

[farang000999]

America has a third world like wealth distribution, albeit a higher standard of living.

[bobthomas]

It's kind of hard to take one Thai cultural trait and define it as static or absolute. We probably have to consider the context, participants and setting before we determine how the role of “face” will be played.

In a country where appearance often trumps substance, face serves as currency. It can be an indicator of wealth, power or status in situations where neither may actually exist. In a country with limited opportunities, sometimes it’s fun to exaggerate in order to make people feel good. So keeping in touch with that, often everyone smiles and agrees even when they know someone is clearly lying, bragging, being obnoxious, lewd, loud etc. Only when that person leaves will the rest of the cohorts openly denounce that person. Everyone saves face.

And even though faces can be fluid, in a situation where a subordinate is trying to gain access to a higher social cast, any out of context acts might cause him to lose his face…and his place among the financial and social opportunities that his cohorts may have offered in the future.

Face is expensive in the Thai world. Perhaps that is why it is guarded with such intent.

If we apply “face” to the highway we have to consider “space”. A substance Thais often consider to be shared by everybody. Westerners are territorial, even about space owned by the highway dept.!!! Blowing the horn like a mad dog is offensive to the Thai nervous system. It’s conditioning.

In a country where social interactions are often handled quietly, a loud horn can be viewed as an attack. Just try it sometime. Scream your head off at a Thai in public. If you’re lucky they will freeze- if you are not, maybe all that pent up frustration of having to save face in the most intolerable of situations will come out, and your punishment will far outweigh your crime.

Thai Visa is not an academic forum. I use it for the same reason Thais use Buhn Khun. I look at the posts and it makes me think and re-evaluate "Thai Culture" it becomes painfully apparent how very few people that post here have even the fogiest clue.

[MAJIC]

Saving face; no awareness - no thinking - no selfreflection - no empathy - ignorance - no knowledge - no confrontation - no correction -selfinterest - no accountability.Selfdestruction is the consequence.Mai pen rai !The ones around let it all happen. SELFINTEREST !!!!!!!!!Its all in the family !!If you can't beat them, join them.

Sorry is the hardest word to say for the facesavers !

We all make mistakes and when we have hurt somebody with it, and realise that, it should be easy to say SORRY !!!!!!!

That's very true,but Face is a selfish motive,so don't expect too many sorry's.

Edited May 23, 2013 by MAJIC

[bobthomas]

It's kind of hard to take one Thai cultural trait and define it as static or absolute. We probably have to consider the context, participants and setting before we determine how the role of “face” will be played.

In a country where appearance often trumps substance, face serves as currency. It can be an indicator of wealth, power or status in situations where neither may actually exist. In a country with limited opportunities, sometimes it’s fun to exaggerate in order to make people feel good. So keeping in touch with that, often everyone smiles and agrees even when they know someone is clearly lying, bragging, being obnoxious, lewd, loud etc. Only when that person leaves will the rest of the cohorts openly denounce that person. Everyone saves face.

And even though faces can be fluid, in a situation where a subordinate is trying to gain access to a higher social cast, any out of context acts might cause him to lose his face…and his place among the financial and social opportunities that his cohorts may have offered in the future.

Face is expensive in the Thai world. Perhaps that is why it is guarded with such intent.

If we apply “face” to the highway we have to consider “space”. A substance Thais often consider to be shared by everybody. Westerners are territorial, even about space owned by the highway dept.!!! Blowing the horn like a mad dog is offensive to the Thai nervous system. It’s conditioning.

In a country where social interactions are often handled quietly, a loud horn can be viewed as an attack. Just try it sometime. Scream your head off at a Thai in public. If you’re lucky they will freeze- if you are not, maybe all that pent up frustration of having to save face in the most intolerable of situations will come out, and your punishment will far outweigh your crime.

Thai Visa is not an academic forum. I use it for the same reason Thais use Buhn Khun. I look at the posts and it makes me think and re-evaluate "Thai Culture" it becomes painfully apparent how very few people that post here have even the fogiest clue.

Read William Klausner, Mont Redmond, and about 5,000 pages of dissertations and books about the history of SEA, get University Degrees, Lecture in Asia, be on staff at various Universities, learn to write, read and speak the local languages, stay for a sufficiently long time, and then you will know what I know..................and that is... that I know very little about these people and their , "cultures"

Edited May 23, 2013 by bobthomas

[Trembly]

America has a third world like wealth distribution, albeit a higher standard of living.

A higher material standard of living perhaps, but even then only for some.

I find that in Thailand my emotional standard of living is far superior to what it was in the west.

[HeijoshinCool]

Saving face and non aggressive behaviour is not only in Thailand, Japan has the same mentality for one. The difference is that too many Thai's are not humble in their pusuit of what they beleive is rightfully theirs, they will take till you bleed if given the chance. Small things, big deals are all on the same playing field, whether it be helping themselves to fruit from your trees or ripping you off for millions of Baht, its all the same. That is why things will never change. Should they?

Oz

The difference between Thai "face" and Japanese "face" is so great they should not even be mentioned in the same month.

[PaullyW]

Saving face and non aggressive behaviour is not only in Thailand, Japan has the same mentality for one. The difference is that too many Thai's are not humble in their pusuit of what they beleive is rightfully theirs, they will take till you bleed if given the chance. Small things, big deals are all on the same playing field, whether it be helping themselves to fruit from your trees or ripping you off for millions of Baht, its all the same. That is why things will never change. Should they?

Oz

The difference between Thai "face" and Japanese "face" is so great they should not even be mentioned in the same month.

I agree. In fact, it's not easy to say a more insulting thing about the Japanese. Most fundamentally, FACE in Japan is something which motivates people to do the right thing and live an honorable life. Similar to Bushido code and all that. However, a lazy, generally not honorable society like Thai society is currently (perhaps not always so) can HIDE behind the concept of FACE to escape doing the right thing and making tough decisions and living an honorable life.

The concept in Japan and Thailand is nearly exactly opposite in its application.

[benalibina]

Saving face and non aggressive behaviour is not only in Thailand, Japan has the same mentality for one. The difference is that too many Thai's are not humble in their pusuit of what they beleive is rightfully theirs, they will take till you bleed if given the chance. Small things, big deals are all on the same playing field, whether it be helping themselves to fruit from your trees or ripping you off for millions of Baht, its all the same. That is why things will never change. Should they? Oz

The difference between Thai "face" and Japanese "face" is so great they should not even be mentioned in the same month.

I agree. In fact, it's not easy to say a more insulting thing about the Japanese. Most fundamentally, FACE in Japan is something which motivates people to do the right thing and live an honorable life. Similar to Bushido code and all that. However, a lazy, generally not honorable society like Thai society is currently (perhaps not always so) can HIDE behind the concept of FACE to escape doing the right thing and making tough decisions and living an honorable life. The concept in Japan and Thailand is nearly exactly opposite in its application.

Nicely stated. What do you think is the reason for that ?

[PaullyW]

Saving face and non aggressive behaviour is not only in Thailand, Japan has the same mentality for one. The difference is that too many Thai's are not humble in their pusuit of what they beleive is rightfully theirs, they will take till you bleed if given the chance. Small things, big deals are all on the same playing field, whether it be helping themselves to fruit from your trees or ripping you off for millions of Baht, its all the same. That is why things will never change. Should they? Oz

The difference between Thai "face" and Japanese "face" is so great they should not even be mentioned in the same month.

I agree. In fact, it's not easy to say a more insulting thing about the Japanese. Most fundamentally, FACE in Japan is something which motivates people to do the right thing and live an honorable life. Similar to Bushido code and all that. However, a lazy, generally not honorable society like Thai society is currently (perhaps not always so) can HIDE behind the concept of FACE to escape doing the right thing and making tough decisions and living an honorable life. The concept in Japan and Thailand is nearly exactly opposite in its application.

Nicely stated. What do you think is the reason for that ?

I truly don't know. It's complicated. Maybe Thai society is just in a funk of sorts. I can't imagine it was always so... I hope not.

To add: I wonder if Thai society just lacks courage at the moment. It seems so difficult to stand up against wrongs. We read of very few Thais truly challenging the systems in place. We read about fewer who have been or are willing to sacrifice themselves for what is right and what is good. Is it because they lack courage or is it because the society has been rotten in this regard long enough that Thais have forgotten about right vs wrong?

Perhaps at some point along the way society reached a critical mass of people with this attitude and it is now hard to reverse the trend?

Edited May 25, 2013 by PaullyW

[HeijoshinCool]

Saving face and non aggressive behaviour is not only in Thailand, Japan has the same mentality for one. The difference is that too many Thai's are not humble in their pusuit of what they beleive is rightfully theirs, they will take till you bleed if given the chance. Small things, big deals are all on the same playing field, whether it be helping themselves to fruit from your trees or ripping you off for millions of Baht, its all the same. That is why things will never change. Should they? Oz

The difference between Thai "face" and Japanese "face" is so great they should not even be mentioned in the same month.

I agree. In fact, it's not easy to say a more insulting thing about the Japanese. Most fundamentally, FACE in Japan is something which motivates people to do the right thing and live an honorable life. Similar to Bushido code and all that. However, a lazy, generally not honorable society like Thai society is currently (perhaps not always so) can HIDE behind the concept of FACE to escape doing the right thing and making tough decisions and living an honorable life. The concept in Japan and Thailand is nearly exactly opposite in its application.

Nicely stated. What do you think is the reason for that ?

It is indeed complex, but basically Japanese face is based on rectitude, calmness, justice and extraordinary politeness, among other attributes. Doing the right thing.

Thai face is generally based on insecurity, low self-esteem. It demands respect, whether deserved or not.

There are, of course, exceptions.

[benalibina]

Intelligence, righteousness, civilization, culture, education, lack of good parenting, lack of correction etc are thus the differences in my opinion, based upon what you write. So why is it like that in thailand ?

[ABCer]

"Saving Face" = Not much of a face to save.

"Thai Culture" = Not much of a culture to show.

"Thainess" = Not much of a national identity.

"Thai Family" = Not much of a family.

"Thai man" = Not much of a man.

"Thai woman" = Not much of a woman.

"Thai Crackdown" = Not much of a crackdown.

"Thai Laws" = Not much of a Law Rule.

"Thai Education" = Not much of an Education.

... you may continue this list...

YET... I do like Thailand; I am NOT a Thai Hater; I am a Cultured and Educated person; I have a National Pride of my own; I do believe in Family; I think I am a Man; I do live with a Woman; I obide by the Laws...

and I would like to see a crackdown on stupid, baseless "Thainess" where the common "Humanity" should be the Norm.

It is high time for Thais to join the Humanity and stop dreaming of their exclusivity.

This is just simply true, hahaha.

A very superficial analysis that conveniently excludes the realities within the Thai world.. I think we expect more from a western educated person. Or was Prathom 5, as far as you got?

Thai Culture

A comprehensive book about Thai culture would probably be over a thousand pages. That’s a lot of rules!!!

Knowing when there is a necessity to adhere to these “rules” and when you can ignore them is the key.

But expecting all Thai people to follow all the rules all the time is a sure recipe for disaster.

Cultures in which emotions are suppressed by the “Indigenous cultural paradigm” must have some way of letting off steam, maybe that’s cutting to the front of the que, or maybe it’s getting drunk on Songkran and acting out of context.

Cheers all,

Uncle Bob

PS What I see written on these websites often sounds like culture shock- it’s cool, because it makes you question things- but when it turns to permanent culture shock? Then it is time to move up country or somewhere else completely.

You want a discussion - discuss.

You want to argue - argue.

It's useless and pointless to try getting personal. Where is Prathom 5 ? And what do you usually do there?

As to my 'superficial analysis ...excluding the realities within the Thai world' - read it again aloud if you need to - it is not the analysis, it is the reality of Thai world. The facts!

Bob's your Uncle.

Oh, yes... when arguing try not to throw at me this your 1000 pages book on 'Thai Culture'. It would take a long time to read and by your own admission I would still have an option not to abide by it.

BTW, I know many long books very popular in their time which can nowadays be characterized by one word - Trash.

Edited May 26, 2013 by ABCer

[NeverSure]

I think the saving face thing is entirely different in Thailand and I think it holds the country way back.

In April I visited a village school in Isaan for a couple days. A teacher is a friend of mine.

Dang!!!!! They can't hold kids accountable or see to it they get an education. How is that the same in every country, and how is that not damaging the future?

They can't fail a kid. They can't give a bad grade. Everyone passes. There are good students but mostly girls. It's not just the kids but their parents. Can't lose face.

There was a male Thai teacher who wouldn't work. Everyone was doing his work but no one would make him lose face.

I'll help him lose face. I have great big European hands and I would be happy to cause his loss of face. ( Joking about the loss of his face. )

Don't gimme the part that it doesn't hurt anything.

Edited May 26, 2013 by NeverSure

[HeijoshinCool]

I think the saving face thing is entirely different in Thailand and I think it holds the country way back.

In April I visited a village school in Isaan for a couple days. A teacher is a friend of mine.

Dang!!!!! They can't hold kids accountable or see to it they get an education. How is that the same in every country, and how is that not damaging the future?

They can't fail a kid. They can't give a bad grade. Everyone passes. There are good students but mostly girls. It's not just the kids but their parents. Can't lose face.

There was a male Thai teacher who wouldn't work. Everyone was doing his work but no one would make him lose face.

I'll help him lose face. I have great big European hands and I would be happy to cause his loss of face. ( Joking about the loss of his face. )

Don't gimme the part that it doesn't hurt anything.

One of the top problems here, probably number one. It pulls everyone down from birth onward. The schools are a national joke. Everything you said is right on. The Thai form of face is and always will be the one thing that holds Thailand back.

[morrobay]

I think the saving face thing is entirely different in Thailand and I think it holds the country way back.

In April I visited a village school in Isaan for a couple days. A teacher is a friend of mine.

Dang!!!!! They can't hold kids accountable or see to it they get an education. How is that the same in every country, and how is that not damaging the future?

They can't fail a kid. They can't give a bad grade. Everyone passes. There are good students but mostly girls. It's not just the kids but their parents. Can't lose face.

There was a male Thai teacher who wouldn't work. Everyone was doing his work but no one would make him lose face.

I'll help him lose face. I have great big European hands and I would be happy to cause his loss of face. ( Joking about the loss of his face. )

Don't gimme the part that it doesn't hurt anything.

One of the top problems here, probably number one. It pulls everyone down from birth onward. The schools are a national joke. Everything you said is right on. The Thai form of face is and always will be the one thing that holds Thailand back.

The above facts are why Thailand has to bring in Foreign engineers for skytrains, subways and bridges. I was talking to an electrical engineer from the U.K. here. He said a four
year university engineer in Thailand is equivalent to a two year technician in a Western country . Edited May 26, 2013 by morrobay

[thhMan]

When I started this post, I was very wary of what may happen. To be honest, I thought I would get crucified for not knowing Thailand and its culture.

The reason I started this post is that I was looking at some of the history of Thailand, its temples and its culture. I was amazed that the temples are (not all) astrologically precise, much like the Inca temples and have a purpose that is still being wondered at. Some of the great architecture of the old days... The history behind Muay Thai and so on!

Turn the clock forward however many years to present times.... The same culture is unable to build a road that will not quickly fall into disrepair and any attempts to fix it, create more problems. Are they so thick as to not understand how to build a road. Have the schools not taught them well?

So the education system has failed because every student passes and every teacher keeps teaching their crap, as their seems to be no checks and balances and bad teachers never surface and fired. Save embarrassment to children and more importantly, mom and dad, because they pay the school fees. How wonderful it would be when little Thai Boy gets all his degrees in Hotel managements and then is employed as a big hotels manager... What are the consequences to the initial face saving???? ... In my opinion, its a Thailand that is heading for a great train wreck....

Start sarcasm - You would think the hotels and resorts would be putting some cash into keeping their attractions clean... NOPE... Aint gonna happen here jack, while its managed by a Thai!... But we can get a manager for 20000 THB a month... Wahooo... We will be SO rich by saving on salaries ..... BTW... tourists don't mind swimming in toilets.. do they Jack? -End Sarcasm

Edited May 26, 2013 by thhMan

[benalibina]

In all your silly discussions, who actually lost face ?

[ABCer]

Once there was a Bull.

Once it thought it saw a Red Rag.

It Mooed, it Frothed, it Charged.

There was never any Red Rag.

There were no Consequences, Irritation, Loss of any Faces.

Just once there was and still remains a Bull...

[Rimmer]

Bickering and personal attacks removed, Please see the first rule of the forum again

1) To respect fellow members.

[PoodMaiDai]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

Considering Thailand is literally the largest brothel in the world with 98% of the prostitutes servicing Thai men, seeing a foreign man with a hooker shouldn't be surprising to anyone, especially in a red light area.

[David48]

.

I know that this thread is well deep into the discussion but on a similar thread there have been a few excellent posts.

Well worth having a read of

this

this

and this

.

[ABCer]

.

I know that this thread is well deep into the discussion but on a similar thread there have been a few excellent posts.

Well worth having a read of

this

this

and this

.

"If it's any comfort, with time you get sort of attuned to the subliminal nuances and better at figuring out when yes is likely a real yes and when it is not. Not 100% perfect at it, but a whole lot better. Communications in Thailand operate at a very low volume, you have to learn to listen carefully for the faint undertones. At first you don't hear a thing and it all seems inexplicable but with time you start to get it."- from Cheryl's post.

My God! How tiring! How complicated! Now I know that I'm not Thai! Now I know why I cannot learn Thai! Because I never had any problems to say 'no'.

Actually my wife says I have two tier of 'no'. One is just 'no' - meaning she can argue (and sometimes win). The other is 'NO' - meaning she has to stop. Need I say she is Thai?

[ABCer]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

Considering Thailand is literally the largest brothel in the world with 98% of the prostitutes servicing Thai men, seeing a foreign man with a hooker shouldn't be surprising to anyone, especially in a red light area.

I would disagree with your view of Thailand. Not sure about 98% but I know another country larger than Thailand with greater number of prostitutes. And they service any nationality men.

[overherebc]

.

I know that this thread is well deep into the discussion but on a similar thread there have been a few excellent posts.

Well worth having a read of

this

this

and this

.

"If it's any comfort, with time you get sort of attuned to the subliminal nuances and better at figuring out when yes is likely a real yes and when it is not. Not 100% perfect at it, but a whole lot better. Communications in Thailand operate at a very low volume, you have to learn to listen carefully for the faint undertones. At first you don't hear a thing and it all seems inexplicable but with time you start to get it."- from Cheryl's post.

My God! How tiring! How complicated! Now I know that I'm not Thai! Now I know why I cannot learn Thai! Because I never had any problems to say 'no'.

Actually my wife says I have two tier of 'no'. One is just 'no' - meaning she can argue (and sometimes win). The other is 'NO' - meaning she has to stop. Need I say she is Thai?

Ah yes,

If you are wrong and you shut up

You are wise.

If you are right and you shut up

You are married.

[Phronesis]

Thai corporations love face.

Look at the recent rivers of gold that flowed to them when everyone rushed out to buy a new car.

Face isn't holding Thailand back. It is holding Mr Somchai back. Because Mr Somchai is very concerned about maintaining face.

The corporate and bureaucratic elite of Thailand are doing just fine...thanks to the moronic behaviour of Mr Somchai and his peers.

[kikoman]

i have a friend (thai) who is going to marry because his best friends wife introduced him to her sister , took her for about a month and then the father told him he will have to marry her ,So he is going to do that , does he love her ...no ..

save face yes

I would not call that saving face, but more like saving your A** from extreme bodily harm. Many Farang's perceive all Thai women as fair game for a little one night stand. Many judge Thai's females on the loose morals of the women back home or think all Thai women are bar girls.

You must remember these women have father's, brother's, husband's and boy friend's.

That could lead to your loss of face "physically]".

Cheers:

[NoshowJones]

I do say something when people push in front of me, some look at me like I killed someone.

Others just have that blank stare, whatever the case they know full well when they are pushing in what they are doing.

It's in their mind, "this is wrong, he is in front of me, but i'm gonna push in anyway".

Knowing that I think its right to tell them politely to move back.

To the OP. Yes, saving face? Tell me about it. In my opinion, the biggest problem with Thais is their very poor mentality I emphasise, not them all, and cowardice, and I think any fair minded poster who has read some of my posts, knows I am not a Thai basher. I have defended them a lot in my posts, and OP, don't even think about retaliating, you will find you have to take on about six of them.

[NoshowJones]

You say saving face is a "non aggressive behavior"? So when a bus driver crashes a bus because he's drunk or driving erratically and many people die, then he flees the scene because he' "SAVING FACE" That's acceptable behavior?

The driver fleeing the scene is not neccessary saving his face, he is saving his hide from angry passers by.

[NoshowJones]

Bought a couple of bits in Tesco today, put my stuff on the counter, a lady behind put all her stuff amongst my stuff on the counter, it confused the teller, and me. I had to chuck her stuff out the way.

Yeh it is a confusing conundrum.

I have also had that problem Transam.

[kurnell]

An ex-colleague of mine, recently resigned from a very well paid, senior job with a good company over a loss of face. I was astounded. It is unlikely that she will ever get this god a job again, but saving face for her was the most important issue. Never mind that she has a family to support. Pathetic.