Thai monks rebuked over 'ostentatious' jet ride

[hyperdimension]

FYI... Buddhism officially is not classed as a religion it is an education system and in fact its possible to be a christian Buddhist, but not an Islamic Buddhist because Islam forbids it.

According to the Webster's Dictionary, the definition of religion is as follows, "An organized system of beliefs, rites, and celebrations centered on a supernatural being power; belief pursued with devotion." Buddhism is not a religion because: First, the Buddha is not a 'supernatural being power'. The Buddha is simply a person who has reached Complete Understanding of the reality of life and the universe. Life refers to ourselves, and universe refers to our living environment. The Buddha taught that all beings possess the same ability within to reach Complete Understanding of themselves and their environment, and free themselves from all sufferings to attain utmost happiness. All beings can become Buddhas, and all beings and the Buddha are equal by nature. The Buddha is not a God, but a teacher, who teaches us the way to restore Wisdom and Understanding by conquering the greed, hatred, and ignorance which blind us at the present moment. The word 'Buddha' is a Sanskrit word, when translated it means, "Wisdom, Awareness/Understanding". We call the founder of Buddhism Shakyamuni 'Buddha' because He has attained Complete Understanding and Wisdom of life and the universe. Buddhism is His education to us, it is His teaching which shines the way to Buddhahood.

This would be great discussion material after consumption of psychedelic substances. Buddha may have been a serious tripper himself.

[chooka]

This story is in the Australian media as well and there has been some feedback. Sorry can't say what it is.

[camerata]

It's not unusual to see or read reports of a monk caught doing something wrong being immediately disrobed by the abbot of the nearest temple but those who go upmarket into accepting lavish gifts, considerations and other " major " no, no's etc.only get their knuckles wrapped especially if their devotees include politicians and other powerful people.

If you look at the 227 precepts monks have to observe, there are only four serious ones which result in disrobing. For other offences the monk just has to publicly confess his offence. This makes it difficult for the monastic authorities to take any meaningful action.

I don't know if the figure of 60,000 monks is accurate, but there used to be many, many more. This puts the authorities between a rock and a hard place regarding getting tough with monks.

[connda]

Sorry, but the Vinaya is the Vinaya. I was shocked by monk behavior six years ago when I first got here. Now I'm no longer shocked. I just realized that only about 10% of the monks in Thailand truly adhere to the Vinayas and most of those are forest monks or ascetics. But it 's the one's that go in for the "worldly pleasures" and social status within and outside the Sangha that concern me the most. I'm just a practicing layman, but I can tell when someone is missing the point. I just call a spade a spade; not a heart, diamond or club.

Edited June 18, 2013 by connda

[kimamey]

I have two comments. Firstly if Monks are going to France then it's probably better flying than walking - if the sponsors want to pay, then so what? Secondly, I don't believe these guys are monks. The chap at the back had longer hair than me! A Monk with a mustache? Nah..... It's a spoof designed to do exactly what it is doing - throwing the Monks "under the bus" for some reason

whatever do you mean not monks.

One MONK has been positively identified by "Virood Chaipanna, director of Si Sa Ket's Office of Buddhism,"

the others may not b monks at all, but what dos that say about the one travelling in their company.

nobody has anything against a genuinely devout clergy, and even the average male on retreat is forgiven many a transgression, but these guys are clearly taking the piss

Why use slang when a good portion of the readers are NOT from your country where only that slang is known?

Many forms of English are different in other countries and often within countries including England. It's almost impossible to write English in a way every native English speaker will know every single word. I doubt there is anyone who knows every single word in their own country's English. I have a Kindle and I'm very grateful for the dictionary as sometimes, or more truthfully often, I need to look up a word.

As an example I have friends in the US who had no idea that many of their words were spelt differently than in English.

If you don't understand just ask. It can be educational.

As has been noted in a later post the largest group here are Brits. I have no idea why so many choose to leave the bracing weather of the UK.

I actually bought a small book about Theravada Buddhism a few years back on my second or third visit here so I could understand more about the religion practised around me. I gave up about two thirds of the way through when I realised it bore little resemblance to what I was seeing. My Thai gf seemed not to know what I was talking about when I was checking if my pronunciation of 'Theravada' was correct.

One of the precepts for lay people is I believe to not kill anything which begs the question why does Thailand have the death penalty. I also wonder why so many people go to the local market to buy frogs, lizards, turtles, crabs, fish and insects to keep as pets. Who kills all of the meat I see as well.

It would be nice if more Thais showed more respect to Buddhism in the same way as we non Buddhists are expected to.

[newermonkey]

buddhism isnt a religeon its a set of teachings buddha was a real person not a daity, (GOD),for whom no matter what belief you follow no-one has ever seen,and never will,,,,this topic just casts a bad light on the real genuine monks ,,male and female,,,as to the catholic church,,they like to preach to the very poor telling them theyl burn in hell etc,,all the while living like kings ,,,,,,,,hypocrasy at its very best ,,,,dont do as i do,,do as i say,,,and they still say condoms are evil,,,,grow up ,,like the ptp they need there power,,,,

A religion doesn't need to have a deity - it only needs to have a belief. There are no female Theravada monks (only women monks can ordain women - and there aren't any any more - once there were - this is why there are only nuns).

Condoms comes from the question of the soul - at what point is a foetus an individual life in its own right (to a Christian this is when it has obtained a soul - from the Guf). If this is at insemination, then its is not (religious) murder to use condoms, but abortion (also not accepted by the Catholic church) would be. If it is at birth (as some Christian denominations believe) then either is fine. Condoms are accepted by most denominations, but not the Catholic church. The thinking of this (Vatican II - I think???) is that it is up to God to decide if life should come from coupling, and to deny God is a sin (basically). It is well thought out and against their basic canons, it is not an arbitrary rule - many times there have been calls to change it, but the church can not just change what has been instilled as God's word because of peer pressure.

Almost all religions have a risk and reward (carrot and stick) approach - even Buddhism. Look at the cycle of reincarnation (the wheel of life) and see where "sinners" and those that are good end up.

On and on and on, you go about some mystical "thing" Condoms are fine because its up to you, not god or the fairies who live at the bottom of your garden.

People need to decide in the right way for themselves and follow a path that is good and kind to others, not blindly follow myths.

FYI : 'Belief' in the Buddha's teachings is not blind belief, blind faith, and far from superstition. Shakyamuni Buddha taught us not to blindly believe what he tells us, he wants us to try the teachings and prove them for ourselves. The Buddha wants us to know, not merely believe. The Buddha's teachings flow from his own experience of the way to understand the true face of life and the univ`rse, and show us a path of our own to taste the truth for ourselves. This is much like a good friend telling us of his trip to Europe, the sights he has seen, and the way to go there and see for ourselves. The Buddha uses a perfectly scientific way of showing us reality in its true form.

[JulesMad]

These monks have to re-read the words and teachings of Buddha again and again. I am not sure they understand the philosophy of Buddhism.

I also was always made to understand the Buddhism is not a religion, but more a philosophy about how to live.

[tom21]

the key word is "MERIT" it translates in to English as give money to the temple. I must say all Thai's are very happy to give

[stickylies]

These monks have to re-read the words and teachings of Buddha again and again. I am not sure they understand the philosophy of Buddhism.

just like the majority of people that is. theory and practice, 2 different worlds...

[maddermax]

I agree with most of the comments. It is not the Buddhist religion at fault it is the monks themselves. Last year we had a 10 day festival at our local temple. The monks had the volume turned up to full from 10 am to midnight every day despite requests to turn it down a little. It could have been blamed on the sound system which just had two volume controls and nothing for bass or treble as the treble was not the problem, it was the bass. Nearly shook us out of our house into the pool!

The monks refused to turn it down. I also saw them both drinking alcohol and smoking which I believe should not be allowed. I always understood that being a Buddhist monk was about sacrifice and not grafifying oneself. The religion also teaches compassion to others. Where is the compassion in keeping us awake all hours?

[lemonjelly]

But…. my schizo conscience says this too: Maybe the flight was booked for them as a sign of respect and the bags and glasses were also gifts. To turn down the offers can lead to misunderstanding and embarrassment for the people who donate. If the monks were just as happy to travel by public bus as private jet, maybe it's ok. I think it's not so much about 'having' but more about materialistic addiction or dependancy that is the whole point….. ( here it comes, members quoting Dharma….. )

[teatree]

FYI... Buddhism officially is not classed as a religion it is an education system and in fact its possible to be a christian Buddhist, but not an Islamic Buddhist because Islam forbids it.

According to the Webster's Dictionary, the definition of religion is as follows, "An organized system of beliefs, rites, and celebrations centered on a supernatural being power; belief pursued with devotion." Buddhism is not a religion because: First, the Buddha is not a 'supernatural being power'. The Buddha is simply a person who has reached Complete Understanding of the reality of life and the universe. Life refers to ourselves, and universe refers to our living environment. The Buddha taught that all beings possess the same ability within to reach Complete Understanding of themselves and their environment, and free themselves from all sufferings to attain utmost happiness. All beings can become Buddhas, and all beings and the Buddha are equal by nature. The Buddha is not a God, but a teacher, who teaches us the way to restore Wisdom and Understanding by conquering the greed, hatred, and ignorance which blind us at the present moment. The word 'Buddha' is a Sanskrit word, when translated it means, "Wisdom, Awareness/Understanding". We call the founder of Buddhism Shakyamuni 'Buddha' because He has attained Complete Understanding and Wisdom of life and the universe. Buddhism is His education to us, it is His teaching which shines the way to Buddhahood.

Which power decides whether a Buddhist reaches Nirvana?

Whichever enitity does this is supernatural.

[HOOD Robin]

i read in the article that they flew from Bkk to Si Sa Ket..... but in the video they arrive in Ubon Ratchathani...

[newermonkey]

FYI... Buddhism officially is not classed as a religion it is an education system and in fact its possible to be a christian Buddhist, but not an Islamic Buddhist because Islam forbids it.

According to the Webster's Dictionary, the definition of religion is as follows, "An organized system of beliefs, rites, and celebrations centered on a supernatural being power; belief pursued with devotion." Buddhism is not a religion because: First, the Buddha is not a 'supernatural being power'. The Buddha is simply a person who has reached Complete Understanding of the reality of life and the universe. Life refers to ourselves, and universe refers to our living environment. The Buddha taught that all beings possess the same ability within to reach Complete Understanding of themselves and their environment, and free themselves from all sufferings to attain utmost happiness. All beings can become Buddhas, and all beings and the Buddha are equal by nature. The Buddha is not a God, but a teacher, who teaches us the way to restore Wisdom and Understanding by conquering the greed, hatred, and ignorance which blind us at the present moment. The word 'Buddha' is a Sanskrit word, when translated it means, "Wisdom, Awareness/Understanding". We call the founder of Buddhism Shakyamuni 'Buddha' because He has attained Complete Understanding and Wisdom of life and the universe. Buddhism is His education to us, it is His teaching which shines the way to Buddhahood.

This would be great discussion material after consumption of psychedelic substances. Buddha may have been a serious tripper himself.

I hope you are joking, because your comment is an insult to a real person who lived his life and devoted himself to teaching and from whom we can all learn a great deal,

I dont think drugs ever had a role in his life. If you took the time to read up on the subject you might understand what he taught.

[connda]

It's not unusual to see or read reports of a monk caught doing something wrong being immediately disrobed by the abbot of the nearest temple but those who go upmarket into accepting lavish gifts, considerations and other " major " no, no's etc.only get their knuckles wrapped especially if their devotees include politicians and other powerful people.

If you look at the 227 precepts monks have to observe, there are only four serious ones which result in disrobing. For other offences the monk just has to publicly confess his offence. This makes it difficult for the monastic authorities to take any meaningful action.

I don't know if the figure of 60,000 monks is accurate, but there used to be many, many more. This puts the authorities between a rock and a hard place regarding getting tough with monks.

It's not that difficult. The path of Buddhism leads to the secession of suffer. Sila, Samadhi, Panna: adhering to the monastic code of morality (or more loosely, adhering to a path of morality and compassion), practicing constant awareness of the here and how (Samatha and Vipassana) and the wisdom reveals and becomes self-evident (Panna).

For adherence to the moral code is tantamount to the practice (Sila).

There will always be apologists for the more flamboyant monks -- I'm not one of them.

[HOOD Robin]

i read in the article that they flew from Bkk to Si Sa Ket..... but in the video they arrive in Ubon Ratchathani...

Or... Si Sa Ket doesnt have any airport... also not for small planes ??

[tragickingdom]

It says a lot about the gentlemen and the fact that monks care more about themselves than about the community. Si Sa Ket is one of the poorest provinces, so something other that a slap of the wrist would be appropriate. Just take all the money and possessions from the wat and distribute over the poor. If they don't know how to do. Just phone the new Jesuit pope in Rome.

[cabanlit]

Until I moved here, I always thought that the Roman Catholic Church was most corrupt and money-driven religion in the world.

But, then I witnessed Thai Buddhism - note, not 'Buddhism', but 'Thai Buddhism'.

Boy, the Catholics are mere amateurs to what goes on here. And there's no shame in trying to be discrete about it.

That's the problem here, though - all dodgy practices are in full view, and it's accepted as the norm.

[cup-O-coffee]

FYI... Buddhism officially is not classed as a religion it is an education system and in fact its possible to be a christian Buddhist, but not an Islamic Buddhist because Islam forbids it.

According to the Webster's Dictionary, the definition of religion is as follows, "An organized system of beliefs, rites, and celebrations centered on a supernatural being power; belief pursued with devotion." Buddhism is not a religion because: First, the Buddha is not a 'supernatural being power'. The Buddha is simply a person who has reached Complete Understanding of the reality of life and the universe. Life refers to ourselves, and universe refers to our living environment. The Buddha taught that all beings possess the same ability within to reach Complete Understanding of themselves and their environment, and free themselves from all sufferings to attain utmost happiness. All beings can become Buddhas, and all beings and the Buddha are equal by nature. The Buddha is not a God, but a teacher, who teaches us the way to restore Wisdom and Understanding by conquering the greed, hatred, and ignorance which blind us at the present moment. The word 'Buddha' is a Sanskrit word, when translated it means, "Wisdom, Awareness/Understanding". We call the founder of Buddhism Shakyamuni 'Buddha' because He has attained Complete Understanding and Wisdom of life and the universe. Buddhism is His education to us, it is His teaching which shines the way to Buddhahood.

You are preaching an ideal that does not exist, nor ever will, in my view (respectfully speaking, of course). I never personally met Siddhartha, and I have a real skepticism about a bunch of people who create a fan club and give out "special" names to a person, or people, whom they fanatically devote their lives and hearts to.

It is not surprising that since the advent of the Internet that I see no human beings being promoted to god-hood and sincere devotion, such as the ones from the far past; these iconic figures who have been edited and abridged so many times that there are no human qualities left to their names. I sincerely doubt these fables I read about them, or what someone else said they said (according to which version you are reading), etc. People are much more informed now, and the way that "great" people these days degrade humanity tells me a lot of what it must have truly been like way back then.

Translated: Nothing has changed except the manner in which ignorant people get suckered out of their money and possessions over a promise from an invisible friend.

I don't see the point of commentinhg on the religion itself, when this is a news item about a person and some othe people who run the religion in Thailand.f

It's a bit impossible not to. Commenting on religion and/or the humans who engage in it both go hand in hand. Any variable is relevant and enlightening to a discussion.

On a side note, who needs You Tube. Just go to Tuk Com and get a load of the monks perusing the iPads and iPhone 4's, etc. I've got no respect for people who don garments and act like the garments make the person, or who completely have no respect for the thing they are trying to impress upon me. Better for them to walk naked and show themselves for the fools they really are.

[kimamey]

It seems that posters can't ask any reasonable questions about Thai Buddhism or even state their perception of it for fear of censorship.

I don't see why not. In fact we have a Buddhism Forum where members can ask reasonable questions about Buddhism. The problem with perceptions is that they can be totally wrong and defamatory. It's worth noting that - whether we like it or not - "insulting religion" is against the law in Thailand.

Is that us insulting the religion or the religion insulting us?

I think the point made by the mod was not to be derogatory about Buddhism as a whole.

'Posts whose primary purpose is to slag off Buddhism in general or Thai Buddhism in particular are not welcome.'

As you point out questions can be asked in the Buddhism forum. I've only ever looked at it a few times but I have asked my wife about certain things but I always give up in the end as it's clear she doesn't really know the answers and what she says doesn't make sense. It seems she just repeats what she's always been told without ever questioning it's current relevance or accuracy. Which I believe isn't in keeping with Buddhist teaching anyway.

My feeling is that the principles of Buddhism in everyday life have been a bit left behind in favour of focusing more on looking after temples and monks.

[chrisinth]

I have two comments. Firstly if Monks are going to France then it's probably better flying than walking - if the sponsors want to pay, then so what? Secondly, I don't believe these guys are monks. The chap at the back had longer hair than me! A Monk with a mustache? Nah..... It's a spoof designed to do exactly what it is doing - throwing the Monks "under the bus" for some reason

whatever do you mean not monks.

One MONK has been positively identified by "Virood Chaipanna, director of Si Sa Ket's Office of Buddhism,"

the others may not b monks at all, but what dos that say about the one travelling in their company.

nobody has anything against a genuinely devout clergy, and even the average male on retreat is forgiven many a transgression, but these guys are clearly taking the piss

I have to ask myself what a monk from a Wat in Si Sa Ket would be doing in France.................

[newermonkey]

i read in the article that they flew from Bkk to Si Sa Ket..... but in the video they arrive in Ubon Ratchathani...

Reporters often get the facts wrong, so it would be nice to get hold of the truth. Perhaps TV can get back to the original author and get hold of any necessary corrections.

[Fullstop]

rebuked

I bet that was painful.

[stickylies]

I have two comments. Firstly if Monks are going to France then it's probably better flying than walking - if the sponsors want to pay, then so what? Secondly, I don't believe these guys are monks. The chap at the back had longer hair than me! A Monk with a mustache? Nah..... It's a spoof designed to do exactly what it is doing - throwing the Monks "under the bus" for some reason

whatever do you mean not monks.

One MONK has been positively identified by "Virood Chaipanna, director of Si Sa Ket's Office of Buddhism,"

the others may not b monks at all, but what dos that say about the one travelling in their company.

nobody has anything against a genuinely devout clergy, and even the average male on retreat is forgiven many a transgression, but these guys are clearly taking the piss

I have to ask myself what a monk from a Wat in Si Sa Ket would be doing in France.................

The way these monks look i guess tasting exquisite wines in some chateau or shopping on champs elysees?!

[Fullstop]

Nothing new here. The Pope has a Maybach and his private airplane partition would make a business-class passenger blush. The clergy were the next set of historical swindlers after kings (See Guns, Germs and Steel). But Thai Buddhism is so holy that nothing but the holiness can touch such holiness.

Your argument is full of holes.

[chuenyongman]

I thought begging for money was not allowed by the monks in public places? yesterday whilst having lunch with my wife in a "Open" cafeteria three lady monks came in and visited all the tables for donations. My wife not wanting to offend the lady monks gave them some cash.

[devaram]

Most enlightened Theravada monk in modern times Tangpulu Sayadaw from Burma not Thailand wore sunglasses all the time because he spent ten years meditating in a cave and his eyes lost the ability to adjust to light. He got to the United States in a jet as do thousands of monks every year.

[wolf5370]

buddhism isnt a religeon its a set of teachings buddha was a real person not a daity, (GOD),for whom no matter what belief you follow no-one has ever seen,and never will,,,,this topic just casts a bad light on the real genuine monks ,,male and female,,,as to the catholic church,,they like to preach to the very poor telling them theyl burn in hell etc,,all the while living like kings ,,,,,,,,hypocrasy at its very best ,,,,dont do as i do,,do as i say,,,and they still say condoms are evil,,,,grow up ,,like the ptp they need there power,,,,

A religion doesn't need to have a deity - it only needs to have a belief. There are no female Theravada monks (only women monks can ordain women - and there aren't any any more - once there were - this is why there are only nuns).

Condoms comes from the question of the soul - at what point is a foetus an individual life in its own right (to a Christian this is when it has obtained a soul - from the Guf). If this is at insemination, then its is not (religious) murder to use condoms, but abortion (also not accepted by the Catholic church) would be. If it is at birth (as some Christian denominations believe) then either is fine. Condoms are accepted by most denominations, but not the Catholic church. The thinking of this (Vatican II - I think???) is that it is up to God to decide if life should come from coupling, and to deny God is a sin (basically). It is well thought out and against their basic canons, it is not an arbitrary rule - many times there have been calls to change it, but the church can not just change what has been instilled as God's word because of peer pressure.

Almost all religions have a risk and reward (carrot and stick) approach - even Buddhism. Look at the cycle of reincarnation (the wheel of life) and see where "sinners" and those that are good end up.

On and on and on, you go about some mystical "thing" Condoms are fine because its up to you, not god or the fairies who live at the bottom of your garden.

People need to decide in the right way for themselves and follow a path that is good and kind to others, not blindly follow myths.

FYI : 'Belief' in the Buddha's teachings is not blind belief, blind faith, and far from superstition. Shakyamuni Buddha taught us not to blindly believe what he tells us, he wants us to try the teachings and prove them for ourselves. The Buddha wants us to know, not merely believe. The Buddha's teachings flow from his own experience of the way to understand the true face of life and the univ`rse, and show us a path of our own to taste the truth for ourselves. This is much like a good friend telling us of his trip to Europe, the sights he has seen, and the way to go there and see for ourselves. The Buddha uses a perfectly scientific way of showing us reality in its true form.

Erm was that aimed at me or Winstonc?

If me, I didn't quote MY belief at all, merely commented on the fact of why the Catholic Church is still against birth control in this modern era.

I also never said anything about Buddhist belief, I did say religion only required belief not a deity (most dictionaries mention at least two definitions - one with deity one just about belief - there are several religions that have no deity and several that have many).

To say in the same paragraph " its up to you, not god or the fairies who live at the bottom of your garden" and "People need to decide in the right way for themselves and follow a path that is good and kind to others, not blindly follow myths" takes away people right to believe in those 'myths' and call that path theirs - and to infer that everyone that follows such a path does so blindly is also somewhat derogatory. All major religions base rules (call them precepts or commandments etc) are pretty similar at their core and boil down in the whole to "be nice, don't hurt or take advantage of anyone else" with other rules/guidance to help achieve this (from "Right mind" to "Honour thy parents").

Interesting you use the term "Shakyamuni" (People's Sage) - I have never heard its use in Theravada Buddhism, not saying it isn't used, but never heard it outside of Japanese and Indian forms.

It is also a fallacy to say there is no mythology/superstition in Buddhism. It would be hard to accept a new born walking, talking and flowers growing where he stepped. Or sitting under a tree while snake gods sheltered him from the rain - and devils danced to tempt him.

As Buddha did not write anything down himself, and his teaching were mostly written down by this disciples after his death - it is hard to see how without some supernatural effect that such accounts are known. The easy answer to this is that he told them of it: Now was this allegory or fact? Each set of scriptures in each religion hold allegory - most Christian denominations now maintain Genesis was mostly allegorical, some of course still hold to the letter of it (and that the Earth is under 6000 years old ignoring the wealth of evidence to the contrary).

Add to this the Thai take on Buddhism, with the inclusion of Animism, and we have much more superstition therein. From strings tied to wrists, to fortune telling, numerology and tattooing - all superstition.

[Fullstop]

"Buddhism is Thailand's state religion and around 95 percent of the population is believed to follow it -- the highest percentage in the world."

Quantity vs quality.

So basically, you are implying that Buddhism is of low quality. Why?

And what 'high quality' faith would you recommend?

[lemonjelly]

I thought begging for money was not allowed by the monks in public places? yesterday whilst having lunch with my wife in a "Open" cafeteria three lady monks came in and visited all the tables for donations. My wife not wanting to offend the lady monks gave them some cash.

I thought begging for money was not allowed by the monks in public places? yesterday whilst having lunch with my wife in a "Open" cafeteria three lady monks came in and visited all the tables for donations. My wife not wanting to offend the lady monks gave them some cash.

you got stung