Ecuador 'analysing' Snowden asylum request: FM

[hawker9000]

Two , it's shown up the hypocrisy of the US publicly complaining about Chinese hackers (both government & non-government) when the US does the same to China.

China is stealing US industrial secrets on a large scale. The US is not guilty of that.

Accused of by the US and not the Chinese government (so far). Proof has not yet emerged.

Oh, please. Read a little. Get out more. Shanghai. Unit 61398. Do the Chinese have to spoon-feed it? As much "proof" as WE're ever going to see, and enough to satisfy most with respect to what's going on. The US wishes it HAD that kind of capability...

Edited June 25, 2013 by hawker9000

[Publicus]

Why Ecuador?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/06/23/why_ecuador.html

The result: Snowden, avoiding extradition, is on a world tour of regimes generally more hostile to press and information freedom than the United States is. At the moment he's less concerned with irony than with avoiding jail.

Well the US won't allow him to tell his story will they? But those that are not friendly to the US will allow him to do so. Funny old world isn't it when one has to go to an 'enemy country' to be able to tell the truth.

Snowden seems to be doing everything he can to harm the national security of the United States, in both foreign and domestic respects. What's next? Revelations the US spies on North Korea, or in Iran, or on the Venezuelan government? We know these things already and we support the spying.

The CCP is a reactionary dictatorship. Its form of government is an ancient one that is dangerously out of date in the modern and future world. It's no secret the CCP is an oppressive, repressive, controlling dictatorship that censors its people's speech and thought from birth. It is an indoctrination machine against liberal democracy, against democracy of any kind. The US needs to be spying on the CCP and the PRC.

Russia is another Old World society and culture which, after 1000 years of Tsars - followed by 74 years of Communist totalitarianism - remains mired in authoritarianism, and in which a tyrant such as Vladimir Putin can win elections. The US needs to be spying on Russia and the Machiavellian Putin.

Russia and the CCP-PRC operate under the authoritarian theory of the press/media. So does every country Snowden is talking about (which must make Iceland think twice about possibly accepting him - Iceland is a part of Denmark to begin with so there is that factor too). Snowden is not interested in improving life in the United States, nor is he interested in the well being of the United States.

It's been reported Snowden decided in January, before he became employed to work at NSA, that he wanted to work there so he could "expose" its intelligence gathering information and capabilities. Snowden thus wanted to release documents to the foreign press and to foreign governments before he ever saw them. This is a sinister and duplicitous means of operating which more than leaves his motives against the United States suspect.

Snowden wanted to cause turmoil inside the United States and chaos for the United States abroad. Whatever Snowden may be, he's not simply a leaker who doesn't like spying. He is against necessary and required spying abroad by the United States for national security purposes. He is repulsed by domestic tranquility. He deliberately intermingled the phone surveillance program with the PRISM program which has yet to become clear in the mind of the US body politic.

The Congress makes these laws, so why didn't Snowden take his complaint to the Congress? Because Snowden is not interested in improving life or individual privacy in the United States.

Additionally, Snowden is a fool. He completely misjudged Hong Kong and the CCP in Beijing. Now he may be trapped in Russia in the clutches of Vladimir Putin. Snowden may still be alive, but he hasn't ever been well. What happens if the US gives Putin his buddy Victor Bout? Edward Snowden would find himself back in the United States.

No one at this point knows how this will develop. Snowden may find himself in Equador. Or maybe not. Snowden is not the master of his own fate as he once thought so surely he had been.

Snowden plans more leaks about US spying abroad, will let foreign press decide if leaks endanger Americans

http://americablog.com/2013/06/snowden-plans-more-leaks-about-us-spying-abroad-will-let-local-press-decide-whether-to-publish.html

NSA-leaker Edward Snowden is now hurting the PRISM story

http://americablog.com/2013/06/edward-snowden-nsa-prism-russia-china-leak.html

[Ulysses G.]

I do not see him as a traitor.

A traitor would have sold or tried to use this info to better his life quietly not openly offer it

free to the US citizens & others who have been wrongfully targeted.

Who is paying for him to go gallivanting all over the globe and stay in 5 star hotels? I am not convinced that he is not being financially compensated by foreign governments for what he is doing. For one thing, his timing at releasing the information benefited both Russia and China in talks with the president. What he is doing is hurting his own country.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Ulysses G.

[Publicus]

Two , it's shown up the hypocrisy of the US publicly complaining about Chinese hackers (both government & non-government) when the US does the same to China.

China is stealing US industrial secrets on a large scale. The US is not guilty of that.

Accused of by the US and not the Chinese government (so far). Proof has not yet emerged.

Try watching this about the CCP's cyber theft of billions of dollars of the high tech and industrial secrets of corporations in the US:

Code Wars: America's Cyber Threat:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42210831

[mania]

Who is paying for him to go gallivanting all over the globe and stay in 5 star hotels? I am not convinced that he is not being financially compensated by foreign governments for what he is doing. For one thing, his timing at releasing the information benefited both Russia and China in talks with the president. What he is doing is hurting his own country.

I may be naive but there could be other countries that are willing to help

those they feel are doing a good thing. I know what you say is also possible but

I do not get that feeling from what has been released.

As to hurting his own country.

I guess it depends on what the definition of "his country" is.

Is it defending any & all acts committed by the government or

defending the rights of the people who elected the current government to represent them?

I note there are many definitions of a Patriot

One funny one is from Mark Twain that sadly I think describes many citizens these days.

"Patriot: The person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about" [Mark Twain]

another which i do agree with is

A person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.

Regardless of any work around paper named the Patriot Act that those that seek to infringe use as a shield

Edited June 25, 2013 by mania

[KuhnPaen]

I'm paraphrasing, but--In his original interview he said something to the effect of "I know every operation, every station, every whatever, that the CIA or NSA is involved in....if I wanted to sell secrets I could"

If he is relying on China, Russia, etc. to protect him, then it is just a matter of time until they get him to spill what he knows.

He's a spy and a traitor. Nothing more.

I hope the "long arm of US justice" gets him.

Oh, and yeah, nobody is gonna give up their smart phone and facebook because of what he revealed. Apathy is the new black.

[lannarebirth]

I do not see him as a traitor.

A traitor would have sold or tried to use this info to better his life quietly not openly offer it

free to the US citizens & others who have been wrongfully targeted.

Who is paying for him to go gallivanting all over the globe and stay in 5 star hotels? I am not convinced that he is not being financially compensated by foreign governments for what he is doing. For one thing, his timing at releasing the information benefited both Russia and China in talks with the president. What he is doing is hurting his own country.

According to Julian Assange of WikiLeaks, Snowden paid for his own hotel rooms while in Hong Kong and WikiLeaks is paying for his travel from Hong Kong and legal expenses:

http://www.businessinsider.com/wikileaks-edward-snowden-location-russia-julian-assange-cuba-ecuador-asylum-2013-6

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry, but I have no faith in anything - the fugitive - Julian Assange says.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Ulysses G.

[chrisinth]

Is it treason? In so much that he has divulged information from one of America's main intelligence gathering organizations, which by definition is 'A crime that undermines the offender's government', then yes, he should be guilty of treason.

But, this is a media circus. In all likelihood both China and Russia have seen him for what he is, a small rate whistle blower, at best confirming (?) what the majority of logically minded people have suspected for years.

At what level did he have access to the NSA data banks and how did he get the information out (this isn't an internet café we are talking about here)?

Has it been clarified that the data actually came from the NSA computers, or is this just a viewpoint from Snowden? Or is it pure speculation that he actually did have hard evidence?

[Nowhereman60]

So does he think the Chinese and Russians are being nice to him because they believe in his cause? Thank you Mr Benedict Arnold Snowden for helping weakening America's security against Terrorist. Maybe consider North Korea.

[Naam]

So does he think the Chinese and Russians are being nice to him because they believe in his cause? Thank you Mr Benedict Arnold Snowden for helping weakening America's security against Terrorist. Maybe consider North Korea.

how right you are! i can hardly hold back my tears

[Lancelot]

Isn't it hypocritical that those applauding Ecuador in this matter remain silent on President Correa's actions that have crushed dissent and that have sought to silence his regime's critics?

Exactly.

This article highlights an Ecuadorean journalist that fled to the US to avoid a prison sentence for libeling Mr. Correa.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE77S5AI20110829

[Scott]

Off-topic, conspiracy posts and replies have been removed.

Please stick to this topic.

[F430murci]

So does he think the Chinese and Russians are being nice to him because they believe in his cause? Thank you Mr Benedict Arnold Snowden for helping weakening America's security against Terrorist. Maybe consider North Korea.

For sure. That and thumbing their nose at a weak arse President.

[geriatrickid]

So does he think the Chinese and Russians are being nice to him because they believe in his cause? Thank you Mr Benedict Arnold Snowden for helping weakening America's security against Terrorist. Maybe consider North Korea.

how right you are! i can hardly hold back my tears

I have the impression that you draw some sort of delight at this event. If it was not for the USA and its allies, the likelihood of Thailand becoming a Tibet like possession of China would be certain. You may not wish to accept the expansionist nature of China, but those of us who come from families who have had a taste of Chinese rule do not want a repeat of Chinese tyranny.

Lost in your crocodile tears is that Mr. Snowden has thrown away his life. He may not understand nor appreciate what he has done as he basks in the limelight, but it will eventually sink in. He has shamed his family, dishonoured his country. a country to which he swore an oath of allegiance and he has betrayed his fellow Americans. That in itself is worth shedding tears over. He has been used and he'll eventually get it, once his safe haven of Ecuador collapses just as hundreds of other regimes have collapsed in the past century.

Edited June 25, 2013 by geriatrickid

[Publicus]

The Company Snowden Keeps

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/06/24/the_company_snowden_keeps_118930.html

From the article: One might argue that Snowden’s trips to Hong Kong and Moscow do not imply endorsement of what their regimes are doing. Yet it is worth noting that, in addition to disclosures about NSA surveillance of Americans’ phone calls and emails, Snowden has also shared information about U.S. cyber-snooping on Russia and China. It is now reported that before Snowden left Hong Kong, Chinese intelligence may have managed to “drain” the contents of his four laptop computers.

[F430murci]

So does he think the Chinese and Russians are being nice to him because they believe in his cause? Thank you Mr Benedict Arnold Snowden for helping weakening America's security against Terrorist. Maybe consider North Korea.

how right you are! i can hardly hold back my tears

I have the impression that you draw some sort of delight at this event. If it was not for the USA and its allies, the likelihood of Thailand becoming a Tibet like possession of China would be certain. You may not wish to accept the expansionist nature of China, but those of us who come from families who have had a taste of Chinese rule do not want a repeat of Chinese tyranny.

Lost in your crocodile tears is that Mr. Snowden has thrown away his life. He may not understand nor appreciate what he has done as he basks in the limelight, but it will eventually sink in. He has shamed his family, dishonoured his country. a country to which he swore an oath of allegiance and he has betrayed his fellow Americans. That in itself is worth shedding tears over. He has been used and he'll eventually get it, once his safe haven of Ecuador collapses just as hundreds of other regimes have collapsed in the past century.

Snowden is costing a lot of money and resources. Spoke with brother that works in ant-terrorism and has clearance as an officer in the air force and with FBI. He said security clearance for a lot of civilian jobs for even stuff as simple as SIPRnet are being revoked or denied at the present. A lot of internal changes and cutting back on access. Placing huge load on people like my brother that work with civilian workers or contractors at commercial carries who no longer can access certain things and do certain jobs.

This all may actually have the reverse effect some of you desire making secret court even more secret and cutting off classified and even just secret information access to all but certain military or individuals with high clearance. Contractors like Snowden having certain security access may be a thing of the past. Brother has a former NSA spook in his department and the unofficial buzz is that ALOT was taken. A whole lot!!!

Seems like this could have been handled better than running off to places like China and Russia and comprising entire systems in the process. His actions are forcing us into deeper secrecy and not more transparency.

[Jingthing]

Interestingly it looks like the USA does have a way to directly punish Ecuador if they take in Snowden, and soon ...

I reckon Correa will be willing to take this hit. He just won a huge landslide election and he doesn't plan on running again (he's already picked a radical left young women to carry on for him later).

Some might find it awkward to be granting sanctuary to one country’s self-proclaimed whistleblower while stifling their own. Not Mr. Correa, who for years has been campaigning against the United States while depending on it to prop up his economy with trade preferences. Thanks to the Andean Trade Promotion and Drug Protection Act, Ecuador — which uses the dollar as its currency — is able to export many goods to the United States duty-free, supporting roughly 400,000 jobs in a country of 14 million people.

As it happens, the preferences will expire next month unless renewed by Congress. If Mr. Correa welcomes Mr. Snowden, there will be an easy way to demonstrate that Yanqui-baiting has its price.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/snowden-case-highlights-ecuadors-double-standard/2013/06/24/c8e04ffc-dcfd-11e2-bd83-e99e43c336ed_story.html

[Berkshire]

The Company Snowden Keeps

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/06/24/the_company_snowden_keeps_118930.html

From the article: One might argue that Snowden’s trips to Hong Kong and Moscow do not imply endorsement of what their regimes are doing. Yet it is worth noting that, in addition to disclosures about NSA surveillance of Americans’ phone calls and emails, Snowden has also shared information about U.S. cyber-snooping on Russia and China. It is now reported that before Snowden left Hong Kong, Chinese intelligence may have managed to “drain” the contents of his four laptop computers.

Indeed, it would be the ultimate in negligence and stupidity if the Chinese AND the Russians hadn't "drained" the contents of what Snowden had in his possession. Talk about an intelligence jackpot of epic proportions.

[Publicus]

Interestingly it looks like the USA does have a way to directly punish Ecuador if they take in Snowden, and soon ...

I reckon Correa will be willing to take this hit. He just won a huge landslide election and he doesn't plan on running again (he's already picked a radical left young women to carry on for him later).

Some might find it awkward to be granting sanctuary to one country’s self-proclaimed whistleblower while stifling their own. Not Mr. Correa, who for years has been campaigning against the United States while depending on it to prop up his economy with trade preferences. Thanks to the Andean Trade Promotion and Drug Protection Act, Ecuador — which uses the dollar as its currency — is able to export many goods to the United States duty-free, supporting roughly 400,000 jobs in a country of 14 million people.

As it happens, the preferences will expire next month unless renewed by Congress. If Mr. Correa welcomes Mr. Snowden, there will be an easy way to demonstrate that Yanqui-baiting has its price.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/snowden-case-highlights-ecuadors-double-standard/2013/06/24/c8e04ffc-dcfd-11e2-bd83-e99e43c336ed_story.html

Wikileaks is going to publish everything Snowden has.

Assange hasn't said so yet, but that he'll do so is 99.9% a sure thing. Wikileaks already has announced it is paying for Snowden's travel expenses and his legal fees, and is vouching for him with the Equadorian government in Snowden's written application for asylum, already submitted.

Equador already has granted Assange political asylum - did that last year. It's very likely it will give Snowden asylum unless US pressure on the leftist president Correa can prevent it. Either way, Snowden and Assange will together publish all of the national and global security documents and information Snowden stole.

Prez Obama and the Congress may find something to agree on here.

[F430murci]

how right you are! i can hardly hold back my tears

I have the impression that you draw some sort of delight at this event. If it was not for the USA and its allies, the likelihood of Thailand becoming a Tibet like possession of China would be certain. You may not wish to accept the expansionist nature of China, but those of us who come from families who have had a taste of Chinese rule do not want a repeat of Chinese tyranny.

Lost in your crocodile tears is that Mr. Snowden has thrown away his life. He may not understand nor appreciate what he has done as he basks in the limelight, but it will eventually sink in. He has shamed his family, dishonoured his country. a country to which he swore an oath of allegiance and he has betrayed his fellow Americans. That in itself is worth shedding tears over. He has been used and he'll eventually get it, once his safe haven of Ecuador collapses just as hundreds of other regimes have collapsed in the past century.

Snowden is costing a lot of money and resources. Spoke with brother that works in ant-terrorism and has clearance as an officer in the air force and with FBI. He said security clearance for a lot of civilian jobs for even stuff as simple as SIPRnet are being revoked or denied at the present. A lot of internal changes and cutting back on access. Placing huge load on people like my brother that work with civilian workers or contractors at commercial carries who no longer can access certain things and do certain jobs.

This all may actually have the reverse effect some of you desire making secret court even more secret and cutting off classified and even just secret information access to all but certain military or individuals with high clearance. Contractors like Snowden having certain security access may be a thing of the past. Brother has a former NSA spook in his department and the unofficial buzz is that ALOT was taken. A whole lot!!!

Seems like this could have been handled better than running off to places like China and Russia and comprising entire systems in the process. His actions are forcing us into deeper secrecy and not more transparency.

Let's hope it means they fire the whole of the TSA en masse.

He is not TSA. They track packages and certain people flying all over the world. Say a UPS package becomes a concern. They try to track every move of the package and the sender. They are trying to keep large planes from becoming weapons falling out of the sky and delivery of chemicals and etc.

I don't think we really want these people fired. A while back they caught a bunch of plastic and chemicals inside printer cartridges headed for a very bad place.

Do we really want people like Snowden divulging information that teaches a country or individuals on how to beat this process.

Edited June 25, 2013 by F430murci

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted.

It would appear that some posters have nothing further to say about the topic. That does not mean that you are now free to comment on other posters.

[NeverSure]

Two , it's shown up the hypocrisy of the US publicly complaining about Chinese hackers (both government & non-government) when the US does the same to China.

China is stealing US industrial secrets on a large scale. The US is not guilty of that.

Accused of by the US and not the Chinese government (so far). Proof has not yet emerged.

I'd say there's proof. China doesn't have any industrial secrets. They are copiers, not innovators. The West teaches China how to manufacture for it. China picks up the scraps. It is the West that has the technology.

[canman]

Not sure what the USA can do to get back at Ecuador. Boycott Panama Hats? Eat all the Guinea Pigs? Attack the Ecuadorian currency ... the U.S. dollar?

Stop giving them foreign aid perhaps?

[chrisinth]

The Company Snowden Keeps

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/06/24/the_company_snowden_keeps_118930.html

From the article: One might argue that Snowden’s trips to Hong Kong and Moscow do not imply endorsement of what their regimes are doing. Yet it is worth noting that, in addition to disclosures about NSA surveillance of Americans’ phone calls and emails, Snowden has also shared information about U.S. cyber-snooping on Russia and China. It is now reported that before Snowden left Hong Kong, Chinese intelligence may have managed to “drain” the contents of his four laptop computers.

Indeed, it would be the ultimate in negligence and stupidity if the Chinese AND the Russians hadn't "drained" the contents of what Snowden had in his possession. Talk about an intelligence jackpot of epic proportions.

It would also be the ultimate in negligence and stupidity if he had managed to transfer any plausible data onto said laptops from the NSA databases..........................

This to me is the crunch of this issue; does he actually have any proof or is it verbally and visually gleaned by him during the course of his contractual work .......................

[Pakboong]

Seems USA is taking lessons in face over here. Doesn't seem to bother them about subverting the Constitution and international treaties as much as losing face. I think he did USA and world a service exposing this kind of crap. Think back 30 years: the mere suggestion of this level of intrusion into everyone on the planets lives (well, that are connected to some electronic device) would never ever ever have been tolerated. But bogeyman of terrorism allows those in power to be absolutely corrupted by it.

30 years ago there wasn't an issue because there was no internet or cellular phone network in place.

Prior to the 1967 Katz ruling, the police did not require a warrant to listen in on a telephone call. In 1900 telephones became common in the USA, so far almost 67 years, the authorities could listen in. The Arizona v. Miranda ruling was only made in 1966. That means that between 1791 and 1966, a total of 175 years, no one was advised of their respective rights under the 4th and 6th amendments.

The issue of electronic snooping, and state sponsored terrorism compounded by the use of biological, and nuclear material is fairly recent. Suicide bombings are relatively recent. In the good old days of air travel, there was no security screening The world has changed and will keep on changing. Laws will be amended, and/or enacted to deal with the issues as they arise.

You have assumed that the world has no changed and does not change. You are wrong.

There's a mechanism in place for changing the US Constitution too, if necessary, in the face of an ever changing world. If that mechanism is employed there is a path to change. If it is ignored change will come also, but it will be a dam_n sight uglier.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them..."

Fredrick Douglas

[Publicus]

U.S. Said to Explore Possible China Role in Snowden Leaks

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-25/u-s-said-to-explore-possible-china-role-in-snowden-leaks.html

Snowden apparently has gone to ground, as the Brits say it, or, as Americans say it, gone underground. He's disappeared.

I thought it strange Russia and Putin, Beijing's voting pal and twins at the UN Security Council, should offer Snowden asylum in Russia. Russia said today Snowden has not entered Russian territory. Assange says he knows where Snowden is but, of course, isn't saying.

Now the US government is investigating the possibility that all of this was a Beijing setup, that Snowden from the start was an agent of the CCP-PRC. Snowden told the Hong Kong newspaper, in a story it published today, that he got the contractor job with the NSA so he could steal valuable US national and global security data. Snowden did choose Hong Kong in the PRC as his place to flee, to escape justice in the US.

When it got too hot for both Snowden and Beijing for Snowden to remain under Beijing's protection in Hong Kong, the Boyz in Beijing dumped him on Russia, which seemed happy to play along that Snowden was en route to Moscow, but Moscow now says Snowden still has not entered Russian territory.

It does appear Snowden was a Beijing spy in the United States against the United States.

We'll have to await further developments and further investigation into the question by the US government.

I continue to believe, however, Snowden never thought he'd have to leave Hong Kong. If Beijing did dump Snowden, as appears to be the case, Snowden already is getting some of his due suffering.

U.S. probes if China played role in Snowden leaks; fugitive not on Cuba flight

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/06/25/world/u-s-probes-if-china-played-role-in-snowden-leaks-fugitive-not-on-cuba-flight/#.UclwCp2wpdg

Edited June 25, 2013 by Publicus

[mania]

Now the US government is investigating the possibility that all of this was a Beijing setup, that Snowden from the start was an agent of the CCP-PRC.

but, but....aw never mind

You haven't any extant data because there aren't any.

There's only the long train of possible horrors imagined by people who haven't any data, any real cases.

[Publicus]

Now the US government is investigating the possibility that all of this was a Beijing setup, that Snowden from the start was an agent of the CCP-PRC.

but, but....aw never mind

You haven't any extant data because there aren't any.

There's only the long train of possible horrors imagined by people who haven't any data, any real cases.

Quote me in context please.

You need to explain your post.

[Scott]

This is in the Live News Updates:

It says that Snowden has not crossed the border into Russia.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/648966-thailand-live-tuesday-25-jun-2013/?p=6544716