Australia to Send Refugees to Papua New Guinea

[Farma]

simple1 the same as you didn't respond to my comment way back in the thread when you were throwing article 31 in everyones face. Article31 says they should apply in the nearest territory to the one they left.

If they're in Indonesian controlled waters, it's up to the Indonesians to respond.

[samran]

Geez, I hope people here are never in a road accident where the locals say 'sorry, its not my job to take you to hospital, the ambulance is 20km away, they'll be here in an hour. If you bleed to death before then, we'll you shouldn't have had this accident now, should you?'.

Bureaucratic pedantry gone mad.

[BookMan]

This news conference reads like a comedy sketch...Click the link to the article to read all the questions..

The federal government has refused to answer the most basic questions about asylum seekers.

Q: What’s become of that boat of asylum seekers?

Campbell: "I will not comment further in relation to on-water matters. Thank you."

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Q: Are they on their way to Christmas island now?
Morrison: "These matters continue to be dealt with in the practice we have been adopting for the last eight weeks under Operation Sovereign Borders and we'll continue to do it the way we have been doing it."

Q: Do you consider this to be matter of public importance?
Morrison: "What is important is that the people who were the subject of our assistance are all accounted for and I'm sure all Australians will be pleased to know that is the case."

Q: But in terms of making a judgment, if those asylum seekers do come to Australia, doesn't that mean that your turn back the boats policy is…?
Morrison: "You've made a whole bunch of presumptions there which I'm not about to speculate on."

Q: Was Australia the first to respond to the asylum seekers' distress call?
Morrison: "What occurs in these situations is where we get a request for assistance and if we're in a position to do so, we do."

http://www.smh.com.au/national/no-comment-government-silent-over-fate-of-asylum-seekers-20131109-2x8a1.html

[David48]

Geez, I hope people here are never in a road accident where the locals say 'sorry, its not my job to take you to hospital, the ambulance is 20km away, they'll be here in an hour. If you bleed to death before then, we'll you shouldn't have had this accident now, should you?'.

Bureaucratic pedantry gone mad.

I hope that, if that emergency happens ... it's not the Indonesians on watch ...

[Will27]

Seeing as the boat was in Indonesia's search and rescue zone, I wonder if there will be a reluctance to go and help the next one in distress?

Whilst within this topic I disagree with aspects of Australia's asylum seeker policy, I have to say that I do not believe there would be any reluctance to deploy Australian naval assets close enough to be first responders within reach of Indonesia's search and rescue zone.

While I would've agreed with you before on this, I tend to think now that the

goal posts might've moved a bit.

The Indonesian's were taking them back before, but now that they're pissed off

over the so called spying allegations, they've decided to change tack.

Will be interesting to see what happens.

[David48]

Seeing as the boat was in Indonesia's search and rescue zone, I wonder if there will be a reluctance to go and help the next one in distress?

Whilst within this topic I disagree with aspects of Australia's asylum seeker policy, I have to say that I do not believe there would be any reluctance to deploy Australian naval assets close enough to be first responders within reach of Indonesia's search and rescue zone.

While I would've agreed with you before on this, I tend to think now that the

goal posts might've moved a bit.

The Indonesian's were taking them back before, but now that they're pissed off

over the so called spying allegations, they've decided to change tack.

Will be interesting to see what happens.

Agreed ... let them take care of their waters ... us ours ... and rely on the agreed international rules define that which lies between 'us' and them'.

Politics ...

[samran]

I actually think that the spying allegations are a front. Abbott has, however true or not, embarrassed them publicly over boats and gave a half hearted apology during APEC. They are out to embarrass him.

[Will27]

Geez, I hope people here are never in a road accident where the locals say 'sorry, its not my job to take you to hospital, the ambulance is 20km away, they'll be here in an hour. If you bleed to death before then, we'll you shouldn't have had this accident now, should you?'.

Bureaucratic pedantry gone mad.

Regardless of what you think of the reasons why they're doing it, I'd suggest comparing a road accident

to people willingly getting on unseaworthy vessels, disabling the engine and then calling the Australian navy

for assistance is a bit of a stretch.

[simple1]

Seeing as the boat was in Indonesia's search and rescue zone, I wonder if there will be a reluctance to go and help the next one in distress?

Whilst within this topic I disagree with aspects of Australia's asylum seeker policy, I have to say that I do not believe there would be any reluctance to deploy Australian naval assets close enough to be first responders within reach of Indonesia's search and rescue zone.

While I would've agreed with you before on this, I tend to think now that the

goal posts might've moved a bit.

The Indonesian's were taking them back before, but now that they're pissed off

over the so called spying allegations, they've decided to change tack.

Will be interesting to see what happens.

Agreed ... let them take care of their waters ... us ours ... and rely on the agreed international rules define that which lies between 'us' and them'.

Politics ...

The protocol been already been agreed that Australian vessels can enter Indonesia's search and rescue zone without first having to gain permission, so it's not a matter of "us & them"

Australia is a signatory to United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, the International Convention on Search and Rescue, and the International Convention on the Safety of Life at Sea. The Australian government has as a matter of record stated Australia’s compliance with its international obligations regarding the Conventions will not be compromised.

Let's hope that the current spat with Indonesia does not compromise Australian ethics & obligations for rescue at sea.

Edited November 9, 2013 by simple1

[adweb00]

Seeing as the boat was in Indonesia's search and rescue zone, I wonder if there will be a reluctance to go and help the next one in distress?

Whilst within this topic I disagree with aspects of Australia's asylum seeker policy, I have to say that I do not believe there would be any reluctance to deploy Australian naval assets close enough to be first responders within reach of Indonesia's search and rescue zone.

While I would've agreed with you before on this, I tend to think now that the

goal posts might've moved a bit.

The Indonesian's were taking them back before, but now that they're pissed off

over the so called spying allegations, they've decided to change tack.

Will be interesting to see what happens.

Agreed ... let them take care of their waters ... us ours ... and rely on the agreed international rules define that which lies between 'us' and them'.

Politics ...

The protocol been already been agreed that Australian vessels can enter Indonesia's search and rescue zone without first having to gain permission, so it's not a matter of "us & them"

Australia is a signatory to United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, the International Convention on Search and Rescue, and the International Convention on the Safety of Life at Sea. The Australian government has as a matter of record stated Australia’s compliance with its international obligations regarding the Conventions will not be compromised.

Let's hope that the current spat with Indonesia does not compromise Australian ethics & obligations for rescue at sea.

Australia's ethics?? Ppl forget that the actual issue is ppl using our obligations and ethics against us to gain access to our country! They choose the ILLEGAL way they deserve to be treated as criminals!! We need to be tougher only then will it deter this bullshit!!

Sent from my Commodore 64 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Will27]

"Let's hope that the current spat with Indonesia does not compromise Australian ethics & obligations for rescue at sea."

Let's hope not.

But surely, regardless of where you sit on the asylum seeker issue, it's obvious to me that once Australia

has provided assistance, Indonesia should be obliged to take them back as they were in their zone.

Or am I missing something here?

[adweb00]

"Let's hope that the current spat with Indonesia does not compromise Australian ethics & obligations for rescue at sea."

Let's hope not.

But surely, regardless of where you sit on the asylum seeker issue, it's obvious to me that once Australia

has provided assistance, Indonesia should be obliged to take them back as they were in their zone.

Or am I missing something here?

Yes but then the politics kicks in. Granted you don't want to destroy ties to other country's but the politicians have gotta draw a line in the sand and actually stick to it!!!

Sent from my Commodore 64 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[simple1]

"Let's hope that the current spat with Indonesia does not compromise Australian ethics & obligations for rescue at sea."

Let's hope not.

But surely, regardless of where you sit on the asylum seeker issue, it's obvious to me that once Australia has provided assistance, Indonesia should be obliged to take them back as they were in their zone.

Or am I missing something here?

Agree, the people rescued in Indonesian waters should be accepted by Indonesia. Looking at the UNHCR website Indonesia, as of end 2012 has 7,980 asylum seekers/refugees hosted on it's territory with very minimal legal protection & probably with no hope in sight to be resettled. Not a surprise they're accepting other options by the traffickers.

Current UNHCR resettlement progress, from my reading, it will take 180+ years to resettle the current global asylum seeker/refugee population

[samran]

Stop talking sense there simple. For most, there isn't a queue, just a brick wall.

It would humour me, if it wasn't so serious, those who advocate draconian penalties for someone who crosses a border without a visa. I guess they are from the fire and brimstone school of law and order (except when it applies to themself of course). No sense of proportion with regards to the crime vs punishment.

Just read in the SMH that the PM has folded and took the asylum seekers. So much for 'turn back the boats'. I guess he's broken his first election pledge, not that he ever meant it. But he's in government now. Not that you know it, his government is turning out to be less transparent than the Chinese politbureau.

Edited November 9, 2013 by samran

[adweb00]

Stop talking sense there simple. For most, there isn't a queue, just a brick wall.

It would humour me, if it wasn't so serious, those who advocate draconian penalties for someone who crosses a border without a visa. I guess they are from the fire and brimstone school of law and order (except when it applies to themself of course).

Just read in the SMH that the PM has folded and took the asylum seekers. So much for 'turn back the boats'. I guess he's broken his first election pledge, not that he ever meant it. But he's in government now. Not that you know it, his government is turning out to be less transparent than the Chinese politbureau.

That i didn't see coming i figured that's one thing he would stand his ground on!! This is a utter joke!

Sent from my Commodore 64 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[samran]

Adweb00. News flash mate, Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny aren't real. Neither are border protection fairytales.

[BookMan]

Stop talking sense there simple. For most, there isn't a queue, just a brick wall.

It would humour me, if it wasn't so serious, those who advocate draconian penalties for someone who crosses a border without a visa. I guess they are from the fire and brimstone school of law and order (except when it applies to themself of course).

Just read in the SMH that the PM has folded and took the asylum seekers. So much for 'turn back the boats'. I guess he's broken his first election pledge, not that he ever meant it. But he's in government now. Not that you know it, his government is turning out to be less transparent than the Chinese politbureau.

That i didn't see coming i figured that's one thing he would stand his ground on!! This is a utter joke!

Sent from my Commodore 64 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Abbott is big on 3 word rhetoric... not sure there is much substance beyond that

[adweb00]

Adweb00. News flash mate, Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny aren't real. Neither are border protection fairytales.

What? So tooth fairy the same?

Sent from my Commodore 64 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[samran]

Adweb00. News flash mate, Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny aren't real. Neither are border protection fairytales.

What? So tooth fairy the same?

Sent from my Commodore 64 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

It is a cruel world.

[Crushdepth]

I actually think that the spying allegations are a front. Abbott has, however true or not, embarrassed them publicly over boats and gave a half hearted apology during APEC. They are out to embarrass him.

They don't need to embarrass him, he is perfectly capable of doing it by himself.

[BookMan]

In Opposition Abbott he blamed the government for the boat arrivals. Abbott had his own solution of turning back the boats. A simple plan which he guaranteed would work.

Now he is in government the plan is not so simple.

However, Abbott has been dealt a lifeline. Now he can now blame those pesky Indonesians.

[David48]

Have the Boats stopped?

Well, in the main - YES

Here is the status sheet from the Federal Govt's Operation Sovereign Boarders.

It gives the weekly summary.

But it's format does make it a little difficult to read.

The easiest to read timeline I could locate is this ...

If someone has a better/more accurate one ...

.

[David48]

Following on from above ...

So, given that there were a number of people already having paid their money to make their way to Indonesia in the early weeks after the Election, it's fairly evident that there has been a significant decrease in Illegal Boat Arrivals.

Note that this is from an incident in 2012, not the one currently being discussed.

Scott Morrision made an error in boasting that Indonesia would accept those rescued by the Australian Boat ... and now has egg on face accordingly.

But let's not focus on one mistake ... overall the current government's policy in relation to illegal boat arrivals has resulted in a significant reduction in people arriving by boat.

Sure, there are a number of Asylum seekers arriving by air but ... apart from a few forged Visas/Passport, in general we know who these people are and where they come from, making the task of identifying their refugee status far easier then those who arrive by boat, burn their papers and thus makes it very difficult and very costly for the Australian Authorities to correctly identify them and thus can judge their status.

.

[BookMan]

Following on from above ...

So, given that there were a number of people already having paid their money to make their way to Indonesia in the early weeks after the Election, it's fairly evident that there has been a significant decrease in Illegal Boat Arrivals.

Note that this is from an incident in 2012, not the one currently being discussed.

Scott Morrision made an error in boasting that Indonesia would accept those rescued by the Australian Boat ... and now has egg on face accordingly.

But let's not focus on one mistake ... overall the current government's policy in relation to illegal boat arrivals has resulted in a significant reduction in people arriving by boat.

Sure, there are a number of Asylum seekers arriving by air but ... apart from a few forged Visas/Passport, in general we know who these people are and where they come from, making the task of identifying their refugee status far easier then those who arrive by boat, burn their papers and thus makes it very difficult and very costly for the Australian Authorities to correctly identify them and thus can judge their status.

.

IMO the policy that has created the deterrent is the PNG solution under Labor. That was announced on July 19 and the numbers drop significantly since then.

Turning boats back will never work. It just becomes a game of evasion in those situations.

[tw25rw]

If we need to send them aid in order to maintain a cooperative relationship, that's not much of a relationship. How about we taken in some of the oppressed minorities from Indonesia, including some of the Ahmadiyya community, who consider themselves Muslim, and then the Rohingyas can settle there. Sounds like win win to me.

[David48]

Following on from above ...

So, given that there were a number of people already having paid their money to make their way to Indonesia in the early weeks after the Election, it's fairly evident that there has been a significant decrease in Illegal Boat Arrivals.

Note that this is from an incident in 2012, not the one currently being discussed.

Scott Morrision made an error in boasting that Indonesia would accept those rescued by the Australian Boat ... and now has egg on face accordingly.

But let's not focus on one mistake ... overall the current government's policy in relation to illegal boat arrivals has resulted in a significant reduction in people arriving by boat.

Sure, there are a number of Asylum seekers arriving by air but ... apart from a few forged Visas/Passport, in general we know who these people are and where they come from, making the task of identifying their refugee status far easier then those who arrive by boat, burn their papers and thus makes it very difficult and very costly for the Australian Authorities to correctly identify them and thus can judge their status.

.

IMO the policy that has created the deterrent is the PNG solution under Labor. That was announced on July 19 and the numbers drop significantly since then.

Turning boats back will never work. It just becomes a game of evasion in those situations.

Agreed ... the Labor government kicked it off and are due a lot of credit for the success of the program.

[thaibeachlovers]

Seeing as the boat was in Indonesia's search and rescue zone, I wonder if there will be a reluctance to go and help the next one in distress?

Whilst within this topic I disagree with aspects of Australia's asylum seeker policy, I have to say that I do not believe there would be any reluctance to deploy Australian naval assets close enough to be first responders within reach of Indonesia's search and rescue zone.

"I do not believe there would be any reluctance to deploy Australian naval assets close enough to be first responders within reach of Indonesia's search and rescue zone."

Well ... I'm a moderate.

It's their Zone ... their responsibility.

Their Onus.

Any evidence of them coming into 'our' agreed "search and rescue zone" ... no ... I thought not.

No-one wants to see loss of life at sea.

But the Asylum Seekers are taking the Piss.

They have the Australian Navy/Rescue on speed dial.

BS I say.

If they are in trouble ... and in the agreed "Indonesia's search and rescue zone" ... let Indonesia take care of the issue.

We continue to agree to disagree ...

.

So if Australian naval vessel/s are close enough to be first responders it's OK by you not to respond & put people at risk of drowning?

No one is saying that, but what is being said is Australian vessels should not be going into the Indo area of responsibility when the Indonesian government will not take back the survivors. If the Indo govt. cared, they would do so and this problem would not exist. Why is it ALWAYS western countries responsibility to be the "good guys"?

In the case under discussion, no Australian naval vessel would be that close to Indonesia as a routine anyway.

Don't tell me that Indonesia couldn't have sent some vessels, even if not navy, that close to shore.

[thaibeachlovers]

In Opposition Abbott he blamed the government for the boat arrivals. Abbott had his own solution of turning back the boats. A simple plan which he guaranteed would work.

Now he is in government the plan is not so simple.

However, Abbott has been dealt a lifeline. Now he can now blame those pesky Indonesians.

Are you saying Abbott IS the government? I thought there were a lot of other people there as well, so why blame him alone, and don't forget a majority of Australians support him on stopping the boats ( except for bleeding hearts on ABC ).

[thaibeachlovers]

Geez, I hope people here are never in a road accident where the locals say 'sorry, its not my job to take you to hospital, the ambulance is 20km away, they'll be here in an hour. If you bleed to death before then, we'll you shouldn't have had this accident now, should you?'.

Bureaucratic pedantry gone mad.

I was on a van trip once ( ie I was not driving ) and a truck ahead of us crashed. No one stopped to help.

Also, have you forgotten that if one can't pay, some Thai hospitals won't treat one?

Edited November 10, 2013 by thaibeachlovers

[Will27]

Following on from above ...

So, given that there were a number of people already having paid their money to make their way to Indonesia in the early weeks after the Election, it's fairly evident that there has been a significant decrease in Illegal Boat Arrivals.

Note that this is from an incident in 2012, not the one currently being discussed.

Scott Morrision made an error in boasting that Indonesia would accept those rescued by the Australian Boat ... and now has egg on face accordingly.

But let's not focus on one mistake ... overall the current government's policy in relation to illegal boat arrivals has resulted in a significant reduction in people arriving by boat.

Sure, there are a number of Asylum seekers arriving by air but ... apart from a few forged Visas/Passport, in general we know who these people are and where they come from, making the task of identifying their refugee status far easier then those who arrive by boat, burn their papers and thus makes it very difficult and very costly for the Australian Authorities to correctly identify them and thus can judge their status.

.

IMO the policy that has created the deterrent is the PNG solution under Labor. That was announced on July 19 and the numbers drop significantly since then.

Turning boats back will never work. It just becomes a game of evasion in those situations.

Agreed ... the Labor government kicked it off and are due a lot of credit for the success of the program.

But let's not forget that we only got into this position in the first place, because Labor/Rudd opened the door

that had been firmly shut by Howards government.

I don't think that Labor realized the magnitude of the problem and the general consensus of public opinion against

the tidal wave of refugee's until it was too late.

Then it was relatively easy for the opposition to keep on hammering Labor as the arrivals kept increasing.

They then tried to fix the problem they created but it was too little too late. And every time that looney Christine

Milne kept on harking on, it made the government look even worse.