Thailand, Hub of Disgrace, but Land of Excuses

[ableguy]

No one will ever convince me that Thais aren't suffering in levels of compassion. Just look at how animals are treated ( amongst other standards) Heritage is everything and life is cheap.

Animals only suffer because you cannot scam money from them, in fact they won't give you cash for anything.

hey LOS.

[geezer2]

Ignore button..... Press!

They dont have here ..YET..or dislike button..YET..

[ableguy]

Even in the USA, where so many people are uninsured, patients with life threatning medical issues may not be turned away.

I believe that is now law, although that wasn't always the case. Nevertheless....

http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/09/27/because-fox-asked-here-are-examples-of-people-w/196139

I disagree.

Persons that were wronged have a better chance of receiving justice in the USA, or the UK and most European nationas as well. The rule of law is mostly unavailable to the citizens of Asia...

I would rather take my chances with the Boys in Brown BIB than their US counterparts, they may solicit tea money from you, but the Los Angeles Police force are among the worst in the nation, watch the you-tube video on the L.A. policeman that chased a young man down the street shooting him in the back about 4 times and walking up to him laying on the ground and delivered the finishing shot, then stated that he felt his life was in danger. (all on video) I know I lived in LA during the Watt riots.

I have lived in LOS for 12 years never had any problems with the BIB in all that time, I will take them any day over the US cops.

Just my opinion!

I too was in LA for the riots. For you to side with the BIB over any police force in the USA tells me you are either an ex felon or need serious medical attention.

Cheers:

[Stradavarius37]

Now running in the news forum http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/674668-mph-to-scrutinize-a-private-thai-hospital-refusing-to-take-pregnant-lady-in-labor/

And yet still running here as well...

[butterlimbo]

In Germany, any student who leaves the university to achieve a medical grade and being issued the title "Doctor of Medics", has to perform the oath of Hipocrates before being handed his/hers diploma.

The hipocratic oath consists of swearing to help any person who is in need of medical help and support, in any case of emergency, regardless of background, race or social status.

thats not true.

[FangFerang]

Tonight on channel seven, minding my own business while the Thai wife watches Thai TV, they parade a parapalegic girl out, maybe age seven, and have her do a dance routine in a lovely wheelchair that was designed to look like a seat. I actually went to the bathroom and was vomiting. For the first time in the three years I have been here, I was ashamed. Maybe I should get used to it.

Resume rants.

[paz]

In Germany, any student who leaves the university to achieve a medical grade and being issued the title "Doctor of Medics", has to perform the oath of Hipocrates before being handed his/hers diploma.

The hipocratic oath consists of swearing to help any person who is in need of medical help and support, in any case of emergency, regardless of background, race or social status.

thats not true.

What's not true? That Germany was the first country of the world to introduce the oath in 1508, and that is still done there as well in any civil country?

http://www.einstein.yu.edu/uploadedFiles/EJBM/page41_page44.pdf

[FangFerang]

Even in the USA, where so many people are uninsured, patients with life threatning medical issues may not be turned away.

I believe that is now law, although that wasn't always the case. Nevertheless....

http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/09/27/because-fox-asked-here-are-examples-of-people-w/196139

In the US what they do is "shuttle" patients to another facility and hope they die on the way, thereby circumventing then law;

I disagree.

Persons that were wronged have a better chance of receiving justice in the USA, or the UK and most European nationas as well. The rule of law is mostly unavailable to the citizens of Asia...

I used to think like that about the Uk, recently though Im not so sure and feel its getting harder to get any justice at all.

[kevozman1]

Poor show, a life threatening emergency or imminent labour should never be turned away, no excuses. Even if it is against the Hospital rules a true nurse of doctor would not have left the woman go alone. Then again I dare say that a lot of Thailand's medical staff are not in the job for primary reasons of caring for the ill and in need, more like they just want to pass their third World medical degrees to get a decent paid job.

Slightly strange that the lady had to go and give birth alone, how many Thai women are not regularly in contact with plenty of friends and family members? Surely she could have contacted someone for some assistance.

Edited October 15, 2013 by kevozman1

[butterlimbo]

In Germany, any student who leaves the university to achieve a medical grade and being issued the title "Doctor of Medics", has to perform the oath of Hipocrates before being handed his/hers diploma.

The hipocratic oath consists of swearing to help any person who is in need of medical help and support, in any case of emergency, regardless of background, race or social status.

thats not true.

What's not true? That Germany was the first country of the world to introduce the oath in 1508, and that is still done there as well in any civil country?

http://www.einstein.yu.edu/uploadedFiles/EJBM/page41_page44.pdf

Not true is that today (like 2013 and not 1508) medical doctors in Germany have to swear the Oath of Hippocrates.

Nor is the oath itself about help in medical emergencies regardless of race.

[paz]

Not true is that today (like 2013 and not 1508) medical doctors in Germany have to swear the Oath of Hippocrates.

Nor is the oath itself about help in medical emergencies regardless of race.

You are right, it's not 1508 anymore, in fact they swore to the modern version called Declaration of Geneva (or oath) here for everyone to read on the World Medical Association website, amended as recently as 2006

http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/g1/

I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;

I have put the keywords in bold to help reading if it is impared by an elevated troll factor.

And here's a randomly found German clinic proudly displaying the Declaration onf their website:

http://www.kinder-kardiologe.de/philosophy

I won't digress further on the poignant reasons why the Declaration was rewritten and its strong ties with refounded Germany, anyone can research on that.

Edited October 15, 2013 by paz

[atyclb]

I think the OP has highlighted a topic worthy of consideration. No room for Thai bashing here. What he has exposed is plain mindless cruelty, not just for the loss of the infant, but what about the poor mother. Compassion? Non of that here. Berkshire shame on you for trying to score some kind of lousy point!

Correct but tragically and accurately the societal level of greed and money worship and lack of accountability does indeed tie in with what happened to this poor lady and her unborn child.

[atyclb]

This sort of thing happens in America as well....which is why the US government has been trying to create a system whereby everyone would have access to medical care/health insurance. But now the "other side" is trying to dismantle the new law. It's complicated, but in this Thai case, the OP deliberately fails to mention that Thai people on social media are pretty disgusted by what happened. But yet, he's still attacking Thai people. An axe to grind, OP?

I was a great advocate for universal health care in america and envisioned a Canada like system, but the reality is health care premiums have 'gone up" considerably for many and many opted out simply because they cannot afford it. They then get notified of a government penalty/fine of about 4,000 dollars. Seems the new system was designed by big business for profit.

Agreed the pre-existing system was not good but in reality it is from bad to worse currently. If endless wars halted there would be more than enough to fund universal health care.

Edited October 15, 2013 by atyclb

[Adeeos]

In a word,,, 2 actually,,, PHUKING DISRACEFUL!!!!!,,,, and they call themselves, "HUMAN"... what happened the the Hypocratic OATH?!?!?!

[butterlimbo]

Not true is that today (like 2013 and not 1508) medical doctors in Germany have to swear the Oath of Hippocrates.

Nor is the oath itself about help in medical emergencies regardless of race.

You are right, it's not 1508 anymore, in fact they swore to the modern version called Declaration of Geneva (or oath) here for everyone to read on the World Medical Association website, amended as recently as 2006

http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/g1/

I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;

I have put the keywords in bold to help your reading if it is impared by an elevated troll factor.

And here's a randomly found German clinic that proudly displaing the Declaration onf their website:

http://www.kinder-kardiologe.de/philosophy

I won't digress further on the poignant reasons why the Declaration was rewritten and its strong ties with refounded Germany, anyone can reasearch on that.

That is NOT the Oath of Hippocrates.

I have written "NOT" in capitals for you to help your reading.

Furthermore its not compulsory for a medical doctor in Germany that he(or she) has to swear to the Declaration of Geneva before being handed his/hers diploma.

the claim by crazygreg44 is still not true.

[Adeeos]

Is, "comforting" to know,, that if you are insured,, and driving your scooter while drunk, crash it,, you'll be cared for,,, whereas an INNOCENT NEWBORN,,, is allowed to DIE,,, YES,,, WHAT a, "civilized" society,,,

[paz]

That is NOT the Oath of Hippocrates.

I have written "NOT" in capitals for you to help your reading.

Again, you are right, It is not. Now let's quote what it is in case someone is interested to know how absurdely you're debating:

The Declaration of Geneva was intended as a revision^[ of the Hippocratic Oath to a formulation of that oath's moral truths that could be comprehended and acknowledged in a modern way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Geneva

Furthermore its not compulsory for a medical doctor in Germany that he(or she) has to swear to the Declaration of Geneva before being handed his/hers diploma.

Honestly I don't know if it is compulsory to take this oath in Germany, but if I was the dean I would make sure that those that do not want to take it, enjoy a separate cerimeony, and their degree is noted accordingly..

Edited October 15, 2013 by paz

[butterlimbo]

Honestly I don't know if it is compulsory to take this oath in Germany, but if I was the dean I would make sure that those that do not want to take it, enjoy a separate cerimeony, and their degree is noted accordingly..

so you honestly don't know if its compulsory or not in Germany, nor have any clues about what the Oath of Hippocrates actually says.

let's recap what crazygreg had said

In Germany, any student who leaves the university to achieve a medical grade and being issued the title "Doctor of Medics", has to perform the oath of Hipocrates before being handed his/hers diploma.

The hipocratic oath consists of swearing to help any person who is in need of medical help and support, in any case of emergency, regardless of background, race or social status.

.

I said its not true.

Why argue with me if you don't know anything about and just have this little fantasy inside your head about how things are done at medical school.

[Wat dee]

Amazingly many still wanna live in this hub of disgrace? Every thing's fakd up and still asking for more punishment ! Lovely country and people...thank you Thailand

[HeijoshinCool]

This sort of thing happens in America as well....which is why the US government has been trying to create a system whereby everyone would have access to medical care/health insurance. But now the "other side" is trying to dismantle the new law. It's complicated, but in this Thai case, the OP deliberately fails to mention that Thai people on social media are pretty disgusted by what happened. But yet, he's still attacking Thai people. An axe to grind, OP?

Berkshire,

You are right this is a scenario that is played out regularly in the U.S. if you can not show the hospital that you have the money for treatment. You are turned away, the dollar "rules" in the US. It is common knowledge in the US that this in fact happens, The current shut down of the US is being fought over that fact "Obamacare" universal coverage for the uninsured in the United States.

Berkshire you have been on this forum for a while and know how it functions, why do you care for what the Nay-sayers say, if they make a valid point yes address that, for all the other asinine one-liners post ignore them. They are only meant to antagonize and attempt to get an emotional response, Those do not deserve any answer or any type of feed back.

Thailand has socialized medicine, any Thai can receive hospital care, you are right the complete story has not been stated, for any Thai women that is expecting to have medical check-up during her pregnancy, this baby did not materialize overnight. The story does mention if she was under a doctor's care, what hospital turned her away, if it was one of the hospitals that offers higher priced services to expats, why did she not take advantage of the free hospital care in her Ampur , or was it just an emergency that she could not make to her own hospital.

Do not respond to asinine post, period!.

Good luck Cheers:

Thank you! There is some sanity on TV, afterall. As for me responding to asinine posts, some of these guys just need to be reminded that their post is in fact asinine. Just doing my civic duty!

I see your point.

I also read someone's post "show me a case of some-one having a baby that was turned away", I can not do that but I went to my computer and type in how many people where turn away from ER's in 2011,

Results are as follows in 2011 only in Hospitals owned by HCA (Hospital Corporation of America) 80,000 emergency room patients were turned away in the U.S. because they were unable to pay $150.00 upfront required hospital charge, in an article by the Washington Post and www.Kaiserhealthnews.org/.../2012/hospitals

I believe in there should be a case that poster wanted to see!

As I stated that turning away people from ER,s is a common occurrence in the U.S.!

Cheers:

In the article you quoted:

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2012/february/19/hospitals-demand-payment-upfront-from-er-patients.aspx

The first two paragraphs: (bold mine)

"Next time you go to an emergency room, be prepared for this: If your problem isn't urgent, you may have to pay upfront.

Last year, about 80,000 emergency-room patients at hospitals owned by HCA, the nation's largest for-profit hospital chain, left without treatment after being told they would have to first pay $150 because they did not have a true emergency."

This refers to people who did not have insurance, and whose conditions did not constitute an emergency. They were attempting to use the ER for routine care. They weren't turned away, they left.

However, a woman in labor is, in America, considered and emergency, requiring stabilisation through safe delivery of the child.

From the same article:

"HCA says it complies with federal requirements to screen and stabilize anyone with an emergency. Of more than 6 million ER visits to HCA hospitals last year, 314,000, or about 5 percent, were determined not to be emergencies, Fishbough said. About 230,000 of those patients paid and remained in the emergency room for treatment. The other 80,000 or so left. The HCA payment policy excludes children 5 and younger, pregnant women and those 65 and older."

So yes, according to an article you quoted, by federal law, emergencies must be treated and stabilized.

Oh, and note the exception for pregnant women ....

Edited October 16, 2013 by HeijoshinCool

[jinners]

Maybe it's because I'm from the UK, but for any country to be classed as civilised to me, it has to have free (or heavily subsidised) health care. No one should ever be turned away from a hospital.

Let's not get into how wonderful the NHS is please.

[jinners]

Maybe it's because I'm from the UK, but for any country to be classed as civilised to me, it has to have free (or heavily subsidised) health care. No one should ever be turned away from a hospital.

Right - never happen in the UK ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15570/Woman-gives-birth-car-park.html

Similar travesties have happened in Oz - one women a couple of years back was told to 'suck it up' only to give birth to her child in the car on the drive home. The Thai story is more tragic, but I could definitely see it happening in our overloaded health system.

Not sure whether you're being intentionally dim or can't read. Please explain how this is any way similar to the case of the Thai woman?

[kikoman]

In reference to post # 93, Yes it is my preference to be policed by the Boys in Brown then their counter parts in the U.S.,

A good article in the ABA (American Bar Association) Law Journal, dated 7-1-2013, by Radley Balko, titled "How Did America's Police Become A Military Force On The Street's ?" not only related to Los Angeles but to all of the U.S. Read it with an open mind and form your own opinion!

Cheers:

[kikoman]

In reference to post #110, I was only responding to the misconception that incidents like the OP's post only happen in Thailand.

It happened to me, my son was hit in the eye by a compressed spring causing a laceration with much bleeding, we took him to Kino Community Hospital, and in the Emergency Room, he was denied treatment because he had no insurance, the nurse at the desks would not let me talk to a supervisor, stating he could sit in the waiting room as long as we wanted to but we would not receive any medical attention.

As it was an emergency situation I told my son we have to go to another hospital, and started walking out the door extremely angry, I stopped and went back and wrote down the nurse's name from her name tag, and informed her if there was any permanent damage to my son's eye, I was holding her legally personally responsible for denying my son medical attention.

Needless to say she took my son immediately in to see the doctor!

The article was only to show the same thing happens in the U.S. and under the same circumstances, the lady was asked to pay 15000 baht up front or go to another hospital, in the article states 80,000 people were asked to pay $150. up front for medical care could not and left.

Cheers:

[HeijoshinCool]

In reference to post #110, I was only responding to the misconception that incidents like the OP's post only happen in Thailand.

It happened to me, my son was hit in the eye by a compressed spring causing a laceration with much bleeding, we took him to Kino Community Hospital, and in the Emergency Room, he was denied treatment because he had no insurance, the nurse at the desks would not let me talk to a supervisor, stating he could sit in the waiting room as long as we wanted to but we would not receive any medical attention.

As it was an emergency situation I told my son we have to go to another hospital, and started walking out the door extremely angry, I stopped and went back and wrote down the nurse's name from her name tag, and informed her if there was any permanent damage to my son's eye, I was holding her legally personally responsible for denying my son medical attention.

Needless to say she took my son immediately in to see the doctor!

The article was only to show the same thing happens in the U.S. and under the same circumstances, the lady was asked to pay 15000 baht up front or go to another hospital, in the article states 80,000 people were asked to pay $150. up front for medical care could not and left.

Cheers:

Based on your description of the incident, if the eye itself was not in jeopardy, the triage nurse was within her rights to require payment. The law only covers life-threatening trauma or illness. The criteria used by police, rescue, ambulances and hospital personnel, for defining "emergency," differs from yours.

Same for the 80,000 that "left." Not life-threatening.

[HeijoshinCool]

In reference to post # 93, Yes it is my preference to be policed by the Boys in Brown then their counter parts in the U.S.,

A good article in the ABA (American Bar Association) Law Journal, dated 7-1-2013, by Radley Balko, titled "How Did America's Police Become A Military Force On The Street's ?" not only related to Los Angeles but to all of the U.S. Read it with an open mind and form your own opinion!

Cheers:

Off topic, but just so you know I'm not just interested in butting heads:

I couldn't agree with you more on this point.

I graduated from the police academy in the fall of 1982. There were good cops, mediocre cops, and bad cops. But most cops were straight up guys who did the best they could with what they had. LAPD was one of the finest law enforcement agencies in the world. Still is, but things are changing rapidly since September 11th.

Blame the feds.

First the federal consent decree because of a few bad apples.

Secondly, now every LE agency hires the majority of its LEOs from what? Yeah, returning "war veterans."

Great.

Men and women who have some distinct character traits: taking orders almost unquestioningly; barking orders at people of "inferior" cultures and religions, and expecting immediate, unquestioned compliance; and extensive experience with the use of military tactics and force. Many have already made their first kills.

Thirdly, the feds are giving away heavy-duty military equipment to the LAPD, and even to the smallest agencies, for the cost of transport only. Currently, it amounts to half a billion dollars a year in APV's, scout vehicles, drones and weapons.

This of course only reinforces in a twenty-something's war-wired brain that he/she is still in combat.

This is a disaster in the making.

So here we agree. And it is a prime reason I moved overseas. I know what I would do if confronted by one of these rent-a-cops.

Having said that, there are still good and brave men and women who risk their lives daily. Unfortunately, they're retiring everyday.

[kikoman]

In reference to post # 116

I stated my preference to be under the protection of the Boys in Brown as I never had any reason to come into contact with them in the decade + I have lived in Thailand. I have not been subjected to injustice, tea money request or any thing else because I respect the laws of Thailand and do my best not to violate any of those laws

In responds to a post that stated one could expect justice in The U.S. as opposed to Thailand.

I was at Laguna park in August 1970, after an anti war rally, When the LA PD rioted and attacked a park full of people (Many families, elderly and small children.) The park since then has been renamed Ruben F. Salazar park in honor of him being among those that lost their lives that day! Which never will be forgotten.

I stand firmly behind my statement I trust the BIB more than I would the US police, plain and simple.

Cheers:

Edited October 16, 2013 by kikoman

[paz]

I said its not true.

Why argue with me if you don't know anything about and just have this little fantasy inside your head about how things are done at medical school.

Congratulations, you are a professional troll. After having shwon the evidence, you still climb on mirrors.

[kikoman]

In reference to the post # 115,

The law change set guidelines for the hospitals responsibility #1 an examination was necessary by competent medical personal. a decision was made if the emergency was in fact an emergency (did not state life threatening) (2) the hospital was tasked to stabilize (medical condition) of those deemed not to be a medical emergency (#3) The person was then transferred to another medical facility and the staff had to make contact with that facility and determine if the place have room to accept the person..

I was not just a case of somebody just saying we can not serve you, an examination was required by medical personnel that made that decision, emergency or not, and needed to stabilize the medical condition before transferring.

The nurse was not within her rights to require payment, as the required examination by competent medical personal to make the decision if it was an emergency or not, which was not done!

As Kino hospital would be where a person who could not pay upfront for treatment, was sent to Kino hospital .that was tasked to serve the indigent of the county.

My son eyeball had to be stitched up and he still has vision problems with that eye..

Cheers:

Edited October 16, 2013 by kikoman

[Berkshire]

In Germany, any student who leaves the university to achieve a medical grade and being issued the title "Doctor of Medics", has to perform the oath of Hipocrates before being handed his/hers diploma.

The hipocratic oath consists of swearing to help any person who is in need of medical help and support, in any case of emergency, regardless of background, race or social status.

thats not true.

I don't know why anyone would even bring up an "oath" to try and prove their point. Lawyers and politicians in America have to take an oath and routinely violate it as a matter of course.