it seems there are 2 or 3 different streams of Buddhism.

there is the Japanese Kind, and the Thai kind... and possibly others too.

Why are there different kinds?

- is it like Church of England and Catholic and other Christian religions? Same book, but different politics?

or is it like the Mormons, who have a whole different angle on things?

Also: I have seen loads of "commentaries" on Buddhism.

is there no concise book that contains EVERYTHING ?

also: how accurate are translations?

I remember about 20 years ago reading about the thousands of translation mistakes in the Bible!

ie: easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a for a rich man to enter heaven.

and latter translations say that "Camel" was incorrect, its actually supposed to be "Rope" (which makes a LOT more sense!!!)

anyway,,, how accurate are the Buddhist translations of his original teachings.

and is there a book which has EVERYTHING? (not just pieces)

sorry if my post seems a bit unsure of my self, but I dont know much about the politics behind Buddhism!

Thanks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_texts

I know that there is much doubt among many of the literal truth of the bible, since it has passed through many translations and had many authors of many parts which were eventually decided upon by a council as to what would be included and what left out.

Although the Pali texts were first written several hundred years after the Buddha's Parinibbana the teachings were kept alive by a tradition of memorisation and chanting. But, what for me leads to my conviction in their veracity is the fact that at that time there were still many Arahants, and it was these Arahants who were involved in the memorising and eventual writing down. Since Arahants are beyond corruption I do not think they would alter anything plus their state would enhance their ability to remember and recall.

I know that there is much doubt among many of the literal truth of the bible, since it has passed through many translations and had many authors of many parts which were eventually decided upon by a council as to what would be included and what left out.

Although the Pali texts were first written several hundred years after the Buddha's Parinibbana the teachings were kept alive by a tradition of memorisation and chanting. But, what for me leads to my conviction in their veracity is the fact that at that time there were still many Arahants, and it was these Arahants who were involved in the memorising and eventual writing down. Since Arahants are beyond corruption I do not think they would alter anything plus their state would enhance their ability to remember and recall.

Hello Fred. I was watching one of your video recordings last night and was impressed with what you were talking about. You missed your calling.

However having built up your ego a little, it was my understanding that King Ashoke, however you spell his name, was mostly responsible for having the Buddha's teachings written down, and gave the responsibility to his son. Something like that. How did you come to the conclusion that Arahants were involved? I am always suspect of someones, The Buddha, Jesus, etc., words and meanings written down many years after their death. If your to believe a whole bunch of ministers, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were beyond reproach. I don't believe that, as now it's being said that these guys actually didn't write the books their famous for, they were written by some unknown ghost writers. So, if you don't mind, please elaborate a little for me.. Thanks. And do some more video's. I really enjoy them.

Phra Bill

Easybullet,

I would recommend against trying to read the Pali scriptures in the way that you might read the Bible. The main reason is that the Buddhist scriptures are much, much larger - the estimate I've heard is that the Tipitaka is about 11 times longer than the Bible. Also, it has three main sections. Basically, one is concerned with philosophy, one with the Buddha's teachings/sayings/parables/etc., and one with the rules that apply to the Sangha (the clergy, i.e. monks). You don't really need to read that last part anyway.

Instead, I suggest reading "In the Buddha's Word: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon" by Bhikku Bodi. He basically reorganizes key passages from the Tipitaka, distills out the important text, and presents it that way. He also provides his own introductions, explaining what is being taught in each section. I have really enjoyed this. Of course, there are also several very good short introductions to Buddhism that don't use the canon directly, such as "Buddhism in a Nutshell" and "Buddhism Plain and Simple."

Regarding the different sects - Thai Buddhism is Theravada, relying on the Pali Canon (the oldest surviving texts). Other types of Buddhism are Mahayana, mostly based on the Chinese canon (somewhat later). Theravada has the reputation for being fairly conservative, and fairly academic (yes, yes, I know that sounds ironic). There is an emphasis on learning and on breathing meditation. Mahayana Buddhism is seen as more diverse and progressive, and emphasises loving kindness and compassion in its meditation.

That's a very crude overview and I'm not a Buddhist scholar, but I hope it gets you started.

There are many many different schools of Buddhism, both philosophical and lineage wise.

The religion predominant in Thailand is known as "Theravada". However even amoungst this school there are a number of different lineage sects - many of which reject the validity of the other's lineage. e.g. in Thailand there i Dhammayut and Mahanikaya. The Dhammayut position is that the Mahanikaya monks are not really monks as their ordination lineage is invalid (this has been relaxed in recent years). In Burma there are 9 sects and in Sri Lanka there are 3 main ones and more than 30 subgroupings of these.

However all the above generally belief in the same philosophical texts generally known as the Pali cannon. There are different groups with different approaches such as Dhammakaya and the so-called forest monks.

Going back further in the early years after the Buddha's death the teachings spread in different locations. Gradually different styles and emphasis developed and geographical semi-isolation made these differences because greater. As Buddhism spread to China different indigenous religions were encountered and this resulted in more changes. Translating into different languages also resulted in different interpretations sprining up.

The original language of the Buddha is unknown, but it was not Pali. There are very few early texts, the earliest ones date from around 100AD, about 500 to 600 years after the death of the Buddha. The Theravada school often puts itself out to be the earliest and most faithful strand of Buddhism, however there is no basis to make this claim. Legend has it that Buddhagosha translated Sinhalese commentaries back into Pali around 600 years AD, and it could be said that Theravada springs from this, but there are other Theravada teachings which do not correspond. Other traditions in Thailand and Burma, Cambodia etc could have had a different source other than Sri Lanka. Asoka allegedly sent monks in many directions and some possibly towards Burma. The origins of Buddhism in Thailand are not Sri Lanka, but there were many interactions from around 1000 AD onwards

Anyway, there are no original teachings of the Buddha - glimpses perhaps in the early Pali scriptures and the early Chinese agamas. The Chinese texts are very early and can be predated prior to any Pali text.

The Pali scriptures are very long, it is like a volume of encyclopedias - perhaps 20 volumes without the commentaries. So you will not find one book with everything. There are some summaries out there - but these naturally are selective.

the accuracies of translations is another matter. There is evidence that the Theravadins have misinterpreted the meaning of many words and phrases of the Pali texts. One example is references to Brahmanical teachings were misunderstood as Buddhism moved to new lands where these brahmanical religions were not practiced and therefore not known.

Bankei

I know that there is much doubt among many of the literal truth of the bible, since it has passed through many translations and had many authors of many parts which were eventually decided upon by a council as to what would be included and what left out.

Although the Pali texts were first written several hundred years after the Buddha's Parinibbana the teachings were kept alive by a tradition of memorisation and chanting. But, what for me leads to my conviction in their veracity is the fact that at that time there were still many Arahants, and it was these Arahants who were involved in the memorising and eventual writing down. Since Arahants are beyond corruption I do not think they would alter anything plus their state would enhance their ability to remember and recall.

Hi Fred.

Technically, involving Arahants would assure uncorrupted teachings.

However, due to the nature of Awakening, an audience would have no idea whether one had achieved Arahantship or not.

Knowing how powerful attachment to Greed, Aversion & Delusion is, I'd imagine there would have been many with large ego's purporting to know the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_texts

Yeah, try to google it.

Your question highlights the dilemma many, who wish to follow a Buddhist path, encounter.

This is why "belief" starts to creep in.

Some believe that Awakening/Enlightenment is the very best a living person can attain in this life, and that re birth is a moment to moment thing, and that due to conditioning and impermanence, when one dies, there is no more.

Others believe in re birth from being to being, and that by practicing the 8 fold path to success leads to the extinction of re birth and its associated suffering, resulting in a deathless state, something which requires either some kind of soul (that which Awakens) or involving the rejoining to a collective Awareness (that our consciousness may become universal).

Many, confused with the lack of answers, adopt practice to improve their daily lives with the view that what comes to us will come whether there is belief or not.

Some are concerned about anchoring to any one belief or direction, as this involves attachment and ego inflation, the opposite of what the teaching instructs.

I recommend that you read widely whilst observing reaction to your body, mind, & feelings during this process.

Without awareness with its ever increasing level and depth is the key to wisdom and knowledge.

Become familiar with the 4 Noble Truths & the 8 Fold Path around which a regular practice can be framed.

The single biggest thing you can achieve towards growing as a Buddhist, is to ensure regular daily practice.

I believe this is our greatest obstacle.

Without regular practice we can read and talk until life ends but we will have no result.

Many spend all their lives studying, debating, and learning about scripture, technique, & belief.

They miss the point.

Buddhism is a practice.

Practice can revolve around.

• Daily Sitting to build concentration.
• Daily mindfulness/awareness of breath, body, mind, feelings and the outside world during your entire conscious day.
• Observe the 5 precepts as best you can.
• Join a Sangha, informal or otherwise, for inspiration, encouragement and knowledge.

Finally you must have a level of faith in the practice you follow.

Not blind faith but a faith that comes from personal experience of a growing wisdom and realization.

In Sutta 44 (iv, 220)

Those by whom this is unknown, unseen, uncognized, unrealized and unexperienced by wisdom, they will herein follow others out of faith." In other words, in blind faith there is no knowledge or conviction, and one can have blind faith in anyone and such blind faith never leads to wisdom and true conviction. Only the actual experience of regular practice can lead to true faith and conviction born out of realization. "But those by whom this is known, seen, recognized, realized and experienced by wisdom, they have no uncertainty, no doubt about it that these five faculties, if cultivated and regularly practiced, lead to the Deathless, are bound for the Deathless, end in the Deathless."

Great discussion, thanks everyone!

:-)

try buddhanet. There arte complete courses, some with a syllabus for primary stiudents.

Thais are Theraveda Buddhists. Japanese are generally Zen Buddhist.. Fololowers of the Tibetan version are Mahayana.

Sounds way to complicated to me.

As far as I am concerned try to live the best life I can with out harming others and where there is need and I can help do so.

I fall short often but it is an easier way to live than trying to understand different books that were written in a different language and a different time and well could have had different meanings in those days. Also probably written many years after the Buddha died. Also the possibility of going through many different translations to get the ones we have today.

Like the old testament. A group pondered for 200 years what old books to put in it and what ones to leave out. It suited them at the time. Given the same books to choose from today it would read differently.

WOW!!!
thanks guys for some REALLY informative answers

I hope that many others stumble on this page to read this info too

Thanks again

I would not worry too much about how accurate a translation is, as long as you get the gist. Buddhism is not some "word of God" alleged transmission, but rather a guide to living, a path to the end of suffering. Get down to the bare wood of it and don't get trapped in the various mind permutations and combinations humans tend to love. It is not based on faith, at least as defined by world's more popular religions. It is up to you to be your own refuge. No one else can do your work or save you. This is my favorite quote said to be from the Buddha, but if it isn't, it doesn't matter: "Do not believe anything merely on the authority of your teachers and priests. But, whatever, after thorough investigation and reflection, you find to agree with reason and experience, as conducive to the good and benefit of one and all of the world at large, accept only that as true, and shape your life in accordance with it." VERY different from all other religions I know of!

I'd bet (if I was a betting man) that every religion's texts may well not contain, or now be as they were centuries ago. However, the vast majority of people (including my self) don't need to know how and why and why things changed; that's something that probably only those who are really devout or academic-type monks need to be concerned about these variations. We 'just' need to follow what the Buddha taught, not get tangled up in the 'technicalities' ... that's how things like the various forms of the Christian church evolved into what they are nowadays.

A great overview for newbies is What the Buddha Taught, Author: Dr Walpola Rahula

Free PDF:

http://www.dhammaweb.net/books/Dr_Walpola_Rahula_What_the_Buddha_Taught.pdf

But like other's have said in replies, intellectual understanding will be only that, a strong meditation practice of at least an hour per day will manifest profound changes in how one thinks and understands what the Buddha taught. In my particular case, it took my three years to see any change. I now do 10-day vipasssana at least 3 a year.

with metta

www.whereyoustop.blogspot.com

A great overview for newbies is What the Buddha Taught, Author: Dr Walpola Rahula

Free PDF:

http://www.dhammaweb.net/books/Dr_Walpola_Rahula_What_the_Buddha_Taught.pdf

But like other's have said in replies, intellectual understanding will be only that, a strong meditation practice of at least an hour per day will manifest profound changes in how one thinks and understands what the Buddha taught. In my particular case, it took my three years to see any change. I now do 10-day vipasssana at least 3 a year.

with metta

www.whereyoustop.blogspot.com

This book should be relabelled "What Buddhagosha Taught"

try buddhanet. There arte complete courses, some with a syllabus for primary stiudents.

Thais are Theraveda Buddhists. Japanese are generally Zen Buddhist.. Fololowers of the Tibetan version are Mahayana.

Far from correct. Japanese Buddhists are generally Mahayana. Zen is represented by 3 schools - Soto, Rinzai and Obaku. Rinzai has many sub schools too. All 3 schools combined are only a minority of Japanese buddhists.

Tibetan Buddhism is also Mahayana, but primarily esoteric variety - which is also found in China and Japan (e.g Shingon).

Most Thais are Buddhist, and most of these are nominal Theravadins, but there are also many Mahayanist Buddhists here too - Chinese buddhism, Kuanyin worshipers and most Thais are also Brahmanical followers too - 'Hindu' god worshipers.

bankei

Camel through the needle. I understand that the needle is the arch type opening in the wall to enter a fortified town. Think a fully laden camel trying to get the ought the narrow passageway

@ easybullet3 : . . . how accurate are the Buddhist translations of his original teachings. . . .

Many forks of Buddhism has at least following 4 books (in some form). When you start reading them and start to put the puzzle together, you will see they are pretty accurate.

1. Middle Length Discourses Buddha
2. Numerical Discourses Buddha
3. Connected Discourses Buddha
4. Long Discourses Buddha Translation


An except of the above four is this one:
• In The Buddhas Words


One can find many audio (to listen while driving ) at this place:


http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic-study-of-the-majjhima-nikaya.html

The whole mental training in brief is in another Suttha called Vattupama Sutta.

In modern days this is called Neuroplasticity

http://www.beyondthenet.net/audio/BhikkhuBodhi/BhikkhuBodhiMain.htm

Apart from other great links suggested by others, following places has wealth of information.

Buddhanet

Access to Insight

Wat Marp Jan

Pali Text Society

Buddhist Publication Society

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/chah/

If one like to read in the original language, Pali, complete Chaṭṭha Saṅgāyana Tipitaka edition is online too

http://www.tipitaka.org/

Hope this helps but overwhelmed.


Camel through the needle. I understand that the needle is the arch type opening in the wall to enter a fortified town. Think a fully laden camel trying to get the ought the narrow passageway

a narrow gateway for pedestrians, not wide enough for heavily loaded pack animals ( hence "riches" ). Such gates existed in Jerusalem and Damascus city walls.

There are many many different schools of Buddhism, both philosophical and lineage wise.

The religion predominant in Thailand is known as "Theravada". However even amoungst this school there are a number of different lineage sects - many of which reject the validity of the other's lineage. e.g. in Thailand there i Dhammayut and Mahanikaya. The Dhammayut position is that the Mahanikaya monks are not really monks as their ordination lineage is invalid (this has been relaxed in recent years). In Burma there are 9 sects and in Sri Lanka there are 3 main ones and more than 30 subgroupings of these.

However all the above generally belief in the same philosophical texts generally known as the Pali cannon. There are different groups with different approaches such as Dhammakaya and the so-called forest monks.

Going back further in the early years after the Buddha's death the teachings spread in different locations. Gradually different styles and emphasis developed and geographical semi-isolation made these differences because greater. As Buddhism spread to China different indigenous religions were encountered and this resulted in more changes. Translating into different languages also resulted in different interpretations sprining up.

The original language of the Buddha is unknown, but it was not Pali. There are very few early texts, the earliest ones date from around 100AD, about 500 to 600 years after the death of the Buddha. The Theravada school often puts itself out to be the earliest and most faithful strand of Buddhism, however there is no basis to make this claim. Legend has it that Buddhagosha translated Sinhalese commentaries back into Pali around 600 years AD, and it could be said that Theravada springs from this, but there are other Theravada teachings which do not correspond. Other traditions in Thailand and Burma, Cambodia etc could have had a different source other than Sri Lanka. Asoka allegedly sent monks in many directions and some possibly towards Burma. The origins of Buddhism in Thailand are not Sri Lanka, but there were many interactions from around 1000 AD onwards

Anyway, there are no original teachings of the Buddha - glimpses perhaps in the early Pali scriptures and the early Chinese agamas. The Chinese texts are very early and can be predated prior to any Pali text.

The Pali scriptures are very long, it is like a volume of encyclopedias - perhaps 20 volumes without the commentaries. So you will not find one book with everything. There are some summaries out there - but these naturally are selective.

the accuracies of translations is another matter. There is evidence that the Theravadins have misinterpreted the meaning of many words and phrases of the Pali texts. One example is references to Brahmanical teachings were misunderstood as Buddhism moved to new lands where these brahmanical religions were not practiced and therefore not known.

Bankei

You are correct Bankei.. The Buddha did not speak Pali.. according to some linguists, in the area of India he lived, he spoke Magadhi. They think,

So what you have, is a transliteration from Magadhi to Pali, maybe.. In approx. 300 years, it might have gone from Magadhi, to some other dialect, then to Pali. And you and I both know, whenever you transliterate any language, Thai to English comes to mind, nuances and meanings sometimes get lost or translated wrong. I find it interesting that Theravadians, don't care for the Chinese translations, even though there is proof that they are older translations than Pali. When I try and explain to my Thai monk friends, that the Buddha didn't speak Pali, they look at me like I'm from Mars.

I also find it interesting, that the Chinese agama versions are written in a language that is common in the area. Where as Pali, is not common anywhere.

I take the Pali translations of the Buddha's teachings as a guideline. Not gospel..

Camel through the needle. I understand that the needle is the arch type opening in the wall to enter a fortified town. Think a fully laden camel trying to get the ought the narrow passageway

Makes no difference what religion or non religion.

They were all written years ago and probably translated through several languages and relevant to the times they were written in. As you say the needle has a different meaning today than when it was written if indeed that is what the original saying was.

Modern man should try to live in the today. Like my criminology instructor said every thing that is illegal today was legal at some place and some time.

Look at the U S Constitution which says every body has the right to bear arms. When it was written there was real danger of invasion and one man with one gun did make a difference besides many of them were needed to supply food for the table.

Look at the bible when they were wandering around the dessert with no means of preserving pork so they wrote in their book not to eat it. Today we have no problem preserving it. Yet because they were sensible over two thousand years ago we ignore that we are no longer held back by such causes.

For the record, Tibetan Buddhism is often referred to as Tantric Buddhism and is distinct from Mahayana (East Asian) Buddhism and Hinayana Buddhism, the Buddhism practiced in Southeast Asia and Sri Lanka.

And I know many disagreem but I too find the book "What the Buddha Taught" to be the best introduction. And there are also many excellent translations of essays by Thailand's own Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, perhaps the most influnetial Thai Buddhist thinker of the past century.

Here's a good example I found from some linguist scholars. Pali vs Magadhi

Pali:

Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one — himself.

Magadhi:

One may conquer thousands and thousands of enemies in an invincible battle; but the supreme victory consists in conquest over one's self.

As you can see they are similar but different at the same time.

I know that there is much doubt among many of the literal truth of the bible, since it has passed through many translations and had many authors of many parts which were eventually decided upon by a council as to what would be included and what left out.

Although the Pali texts were first written several hundred years after the Buddha's Parinibbana the teachings were kept alive by a tradition of memorisation and chanting. But, what for me leads to my conviction in their veracity is the fact that at that time there were still many Arahants, and it was these Arahants who were involved in the memorising and eventual writing down. Since Arahants are beyond corruption I do not think they would alter anything plus their state would enhance their ability to remember and recall.

Hi Fred.

Technically, involving Arahants would assure uncorrupted teachings.

However, due to the nature of Awakening, an audience would have no idea whether one had achieved Arahantship or not.

Knowing how powerful attachment to Greed, Aversion & Delusion is, I'd imagine there would have been many with large ego's purporting to know the truth.

who determines on what basis that a person has become an "Arahant"?

The Tibetan translations of the sutras are considered to be very accurate. The Tibetan version of Buddhist text includes many, many texts which Hinayana Buddhist do not recognize. The Buddha taught what is known as tantra and there are many such texts. Tantras present a much broader and more comprehensive view of the universe and existence than what is in sutras. The tantras also contain many spiritual practices not found in the sutras. Then there are the commentaries on the sutras and also text written by subsequent enlightened masters but, again, Hinayana (Thai) Buddhists don't accept these.

So, English versions of sutras translated from the Tibetan canon are generally considered as accurate.

Btw, Hinayana is not a derogatory term, it's simply the name of one of the three principle 'streams' of Buddhist teachings. Theravada, on the other hand, is the name of one of the 18 philosophical schools that arose out of the Buddha's teaching.

The Tibetan translations of the sutras are considered to be very accurate.

By whom?

The Buddha taught what is known as tantra and there are many such texts.

Any independent evidence he taught tantra?

I know that there is much doubt among many of the literal truth of the bible, since it has passed through many translations and had many authors of many parts which were eventually decided upon by a council as to what would be included and what left out.

Although the Pali texts were first written several hundred years after the Buddha's Parinibbana the teachings were kept alive by a tradition of memorisation and chanting. But, what for me leads to my conviction in their veracity is the fact that at that time there were still many Arahants, and it was these Arahants who were involved in the memorising and eventual writing down. Since Arahants are beyond corruption I do not think they would alter anything plus their state would enhance their ability to remember and recall.

Hi Fred.

Technically, involving Arahants would assure uncorrupted teachings.

However, due to the nature of Awakening, an audience would have no idea whether one had achieved Arahantship or not.

Knowing how powerful attachment to Greed, Aversion & Delusion is, I'd imagine there would have been many with large ego's purporting to know the truth.

who determines on what basis that a person has become an "Arahant"?

My understanding is that Awakening comes from wisdom gained from personal experience and cannot be taught or conveyed verbally or otherwise.

This suggests that only an Arahant him/herself or another Awakened being.

On the other hand others can tell if one is not an Arahant due to displays of attachment to Ego.

The Tibetan translations of the sutras are considered to be very accurate. The Tibetan version of Buddhist text includes many, many texts which Hinayana Buddhist do not recognize. The Buddha taught what is known as tantra and there are many such texts. Tantras present a much broader and more comprehensive view of the universe and existence than what is in sutras. The tantras also contain many spiritual practices not found in the sutras. Then there are the commentaries on the sutras and also text written by subsequent enlightened masters but, again, Hinayana (Thai) Buddhists don't accept these.

So, English versions of sutras translated from the Tibetan canon are generally considered as accurate.

Btw, Hinayana is not a derogatory term, it's simply the name of one of the three principle 'streams' of Buddhist teachings. Theravada, on the other hand, is the name of one of the 18 philosophical schools that arose out of the Buddha's teaching.

Yes, I think Tibetan translations from Sanskrit and other Indian languages are very accurate because, standardisation was implemented. So it is not that difficult to reconstruct texts in Sanskrit from Tibetan transations - eg. where the original has been lost. There is even 1 or 2 Pali texts translated into Tibetan.

But, just because the texts are accurate translations doesn't mean they represent what the Buddha taught or what the early Buddhists practiced. I don't think they do. Most were translated around the 10th to 12th centuries and onwards. about 1600 years after the Buddha died. Lots of doctrinal developments had occured by then.