Nationalists threaten violence if ICJ verdict goes in favour of Cambodia

[Thaddeus]

So if Thailand is awarded the Temple and territory, what will become of the Cambodians who have lived there for generations? People whose ancestors probably built the place and worshiped there. Will they automatically be considered as part of Thailand's Heritage and be considered Thai, provided with identity cards and the right to vote? Maybe they will be stripped of their land and homes, rounded up in cattle trucks and dumped across the border? Will their homes and businesses then be given to Thai's?

As far as I am aware, no one lives in the temple or surrounding disputed scrub-land, apart from men in uniforms with guns. (I stand to be corrected)

[ballpoint]

So if Thailand is awarded the Temple and territory, what will become of the Cambodians who have lived there for generations? People whose ancestors probably built the place and worshiped there. Will they automatically be considered as part of Thailand's Heritage and be considered Thai, provided with identity cards and the right to vote? Maybe they will be stripped of their land and homes, rounded up in cattle trucks and dumped across the border? Will their homes and businesses then be given to Thai's?

No one has lived in the area being deliberated on for generations. There's the temple and there's a bunch of empty land. There used to be a group of market stalls, but I'm assuming they've gone now, the Thais back to their houses in Thailand and the Cambodians to theirs in Cambodia, outside the disputed area in both cases. And the descendents of those who built it (I'm assuming you mean those who actually did the hard work, rather than ordered its construction) are just as likely to be living in Thailand as Cambodia. Neither country existed when it was built, and the Khmer empire spread over much of what is now North East Thailand. How about Panom Rung and Pimai? Are the people living around these places Cambodian? Should we take the existence of Roman ruins in the UK to mean the country actually belongs to Italy?

[simon43]

AFAIK, this ICJ ruling is not about that temple - this was already ruled upon many years ago and it was awarded to Cambodia. That will not change.

What is being decided upon is who owns the temple car park ....

Simon

[chooka]

So if Thailand is awarded the Temple and territory, what will become of the Cambodians who have lived there for generations? People whose ancestors probably built the place and worshiped there. Will they automatically be considered as part of Thailand's Heritage and be considered Thai, provided with identity cards and the right to vote? Maybe they will be stripped of their land and homes, rounded up in cattle trucks and dumped across the border? Will their homes and businesses then be given to Thai's?

As far as I am aware, no one lives in the temple or surrounding disputed scrub-land, apart from men in uniforms with guns. (I stand to be corrected)

Population - Preah Vihear, Cambodia

The current population in this province is about 160,551 people or 1.1% of the country's total population (14,363,519 person in Cambodia, 2007, provincial government data), with 81,318 male and 78,233 female. The population density is therefore 11.64 people per square kilometre.

[chooka]

So if Thailand is awarded the Temple and territory, what will become of the Cambodians who have lived there for generations? People whose ancestors probably built the place and worshiped there. Will they automatically be considered as part of Thailand's Heritage and be considered Thai, provided with identity cards and the right to vote? Maybe they will be stripped of their land and homes, rounded up in cattle trucks and dumped across the border? Will their homes and businesses then be given to Thai's?

No one has lived in the area being deliberated on for generations. There's the temple and there's a bunch of empty land. There used to be a group of market stalls, but I'm assuming they've gone now, the Thais back to their houses in Thailand and the Cambodians to theirs in Cambodia, outside the disputed area in both cases. And the descendents of those who built it (I'm assuming you mean those who actually did the hard work, rather than ordered its construction) are just as likely to be living in Thailand as Cambodia. Neither country existed when it was built, and the Khmer empire spread over much of what is now North East Thailand. How about Panom Rung and Pimai? Are the people living around these places Cambodian? Should we take the existence of Roman ruins in the UK to mean the country actually belongs to Italy?

Fair enough it was just a thought I had.

[nakhonandy]

AFAIK, this ICJ ruling is not about that temple - this was already ruled upon many years ago and it was awarded to Cambodia. That will not change.

What is being decided upon is who owns the temple car park ....

Simon

True.

Don't forget the access rights, it is pretty well inaccessible from the "Cambodian" side.

The government don't care, little money to be made here, only for the local people and monks, car park, stalls, entrance fees etc.

[pacovl46]

Hey Thai-Visa community, let's crash the Thai Rath website to make it known that we don't like complete idiots working for them, especially one that goes by the pen name Zoom!!!

[ballpoint]

So if Thailand is awarded the Temple and territory, what will become of the Cambodians who have lived there for generations? People whose ancestors probably built the place and worshiped there. Will they automatically be considered as part of Thailand's Heritage and be considered Thai, provided with identity cards and the right to vote? Maybe they will be stripped of their land and homes, rounded up in cattle trucks and dumped across the border? Will their homes and businesses then be given to Thai's?

As far as I am aware, no one lives in the temple or surrounding disputed scrub-land, apart from men in uniforms with guns. (I stand to be corrected)

Population - Preah Vihear, Cambodia

The current population in this province is about 160,551 people or 1.1% of the country's total population (14,363,519 person in Cambodia, 2007, provincial government data), with 81,318 male and 78,233 female. The population density is therefore 11.64 people per square kilometre.

But we're not talking about the whole province, that has 13,788 sq km, just the 14 sq km around the temple, where no one lives.

It's an "insignificant" speck on the upper left of the province.

Temple, scrub land and cliff. Cambodia at the bottom of the cliff, and "in the vicinity of" the temple, disputed territory in the scrub.

[ianf]

For goodness sake! This is temple land we're talking about! Very easy to resolve. Have it jointly administered by Thailand and Cambodia, make it a piece of 'holy' land and encourage Buddhist pilgrims from both sides to freely use it for spi ritual activities and tourists for, well.... sightseeing I guess. Such an easy solution.

[ratcatcher]

For goodness sake! This is temple land we're talking about! Very easy to resolve. Have it jointly administered by Thailand and Cambodia, make it a piece of 'holy' land and encourage Buddhist pilgrims from both sides to freely use it for spi ritual activities and tourists for, well.... sightseeing I guess. Such an easy solution.

"Such an easy solution."

That would involve common sense, a commodity not usually available in this part of the world it seems.

[Gonzo the Face]

Well I have something to contemplate after reading through this entire thread.

Of one opinion we have the so called Nationalists, who are of course Thai.

Of another opinion we have a group of Thais, carrying a multitude of labels.

We now have a group of Thais harping their sides opinions.

Where are the A-TBS... where do they fit in???

We have now approxiimately 40 posts and not 1 mention from the A-TBS!

The A-TBS ..... Why that the anti Thai Bashing Society

Surely there is Thai bashing going on here,,,,,, but they really mean is .......??????

[Docno]

Has the likely outcome of the ICJ decision changed at all since the PTP came to power? Perhaps you can expand what has changed so much with regards this issue since they have come to power, which you believe would back up your assertion that Thailand has been maliciously represented.

I think you may be missing some critical background information about the relationship between Hun Sen and Thaksin ...

yeah thanks for your wonderful insight, so now perhaps you can let the question be answered on what has suddenly changed around the likely outcome which leads him to believe Thailand were maliciously represented.

Forget about it. You're just p#ssing into the wind trying to get a straight answer. For most folks around here, Thaksin is the bogeyman behind everything that happens in Thailand. The puppet-master. The hidden hand. People in this thread alone are claiming that he directly ordered people to torch Bangkok. And now we're hearing that he has managed to rig the team representing Thailand so that it will intentionally lose the case so that he can somehow personally benefit in his relationship with Thaksin. Don't expect any evidence. That's what conspiracy theories are all about: a good story with a clear bad guy. Conspiracy theories and a lot of fairytales...

[spidermike007]

The energy should be directed in the right place. If any attack is to take place, direct it against Hun Sen. He is one of the most heinous, greedy, self serving, ruthless, intolerant leaders in this region. He needs to be deposed. He is a thorn in the side of the Cambodian people. He continues to steal from them, kill them, and imprison them at will. So, people direct your hostility toward someone who truly deserves it, and not the international courts. Let us be adults about this. Rational, intelligent, visionary adults, please.

[FangFerang]

A man steals my car, then threatens violence and files a police report after I take it back.

[outsider]

Same same na... not happy with decision, cannot accept results? Take to the streets, organise a mob, burn things down, get violent... and this is a country that wants to be taken seriously internationally?

[Time Traveller]

Perhaps this dimwitted journalist could come up with better ideas than war like getting Yingluck to spend $20 billion to buy the temple outright from Cambodia. Or she can just keep wasting that money on the rice scheme since Cambodian rice farmers benefit from it anyway.

I'm guessing the temple has no monetary value at all and it's value only lies in creating a reason for protest and war by these political tyrants

[sootybrown]

Surely the ICJ wouldn't dare rule against Thailand, don't they realise who they are dealing with and it's not a two bit, tin pot dictatorship like Cambodia ?

NO. Please get it right its a one bit dictatorship.

[Lakegeneve]

So if Thailand is awarded the Temple and territory, what will become of the Cambodians who have lived there for generations? People whose ancestors probably built the place and worshiped there. Will they automatically be considered as part of Thailand's Heritage and be considered Thai, provided with identity cards and the right to vote? Maybe they will be stripped of their land and homes, rounded up in cattle trucks and dumped across the border? Will their homes and businesses then be given to Thai's?

As far as I am aware, no one lives in the temple or surrounding disputed scrub-land, apart from men in uniforms with guns. (I stand to be corrected)

Population - Preah Vihear, Cambodia

The current population in this province is about 160,551 people or 1.1% of the country's total population (14,363,519 person in Cambodia, 2007, provincial government data), with 81,318 male and 78,233 female. The population density is therefore 11.64 people per square kilometre.

But we're not talking about the whole province, that has 13,788 sq km, just the 14 sq km around the temple, where no one lives.

It's an "insignificant" speck on the upper left of the province.

preah-vihear.jpg

preah_vihear-764877.jpg

Temple, scrub land and cliff. Cambodia at the bottom of the cliff, and "in the vicinity of" the temple, disputed territory in the scrub.

Not even 14sqkm. The area in dispute to the immediate north and mainly west of the temple is only 4.6 sqkm - something not much bigger than the Makkasan railyards. I'd post a clear graphic but it is BKK Post one and would be deleted.

For chooka, the temple has already been rognised as being within Cambodian territory. The 1962 ICJ decision.

[Gonzo the Face]

The energy should be directed in the right place. If any attack is to take place, direct it against Hun Sen. He is one of the most heinous, greedy, self serving, ruthless, intolerant leaders in this region. He needs to be deposed. He is a thorn in the side of the Cambodian people. He continues to steal from them, kill them, and imprison them at will. So, people direct your hostility toward someone who truly deserves it, and not the international courts. Let us be adults about this. Rational, intelligent, visionary adults, please.

Right !!! Everybody chip in and buy him a 1 way tic to Dubai.

[Lakegeneve]

For goodness sake! This is temple land we're talking about! Very easy to resolve. Have it jointly administered by Thailand and Cambodia, make it a piece of 'holy' land and encourage Buddhist pilgrims from both sides to freely use it for spi ritual activities and tourists for, well.... sightseeing I guess. Such an easy solution.

"Such an easy solution."

That would involve common sense, a commodity not usually available in this part of the world it seems.

This option was indeed open to both countries for many years.

Indeed, a joint peace park similar to the Peru & Ecuador one was proposed (they had a vicious long running armed conflict - the longest ongoing war in the western hemisphere) over a 50 sq km of jointly claimed section of their border. It was eventually resolved by an international peace park proposal with conservation values which was subsequently implemented & still exists today.(http://www.uvm.edu/ieds/node/154)

Such an option could still be proposed and implemented by both parties whatever the ICJ decision as part of World Heritage Site management plan - though Cambodia would have to at least propose this given that the World Heritage site is within their territory.

[kannot]

For goodness sake! This is temple land we're talking about! Very easy to resolve. Have it jointly administered by Thailand and Cambodia, make it a piece of 'holy' land and encourage Buddhist pilgrims from both sides to freely use it for spi ritual activities and tourists for, well.... sightseeing I guess. Such an easy solution.

"Such an easy solution."

That would involve common sense, a commodity not usually available in this part of the world it seems.

Far better to Nuke the entire area making it radioactive for years and let neither use it like 5 year olds kids BOTH of them.

[simple1]

What's happened with the landmine clearance projects in the vicinity of Preah Vihear? Are more being laid by Thailand/ Cambodia?

[lineofentry]

'Nationalist' = 'trouble making gangster'

[pookiki]

I visited a number of Prasats on the "Thai" side of the border several years ago. As another person who posted noted, these were all built by the Khmer people - even Prasat Phnum Rung. Preah Vihear is regarded as especially sacred by the Khmer. The ICJ already adjudicated this matter and ruled in favor of Cambodia. Don't be surprised if the ICJ rules they cannot reconsider their earlier ruling.

Given the ICJ's earlier ruling, I don't see how Thailand can prevail. Unfortunately for the current government, this will create a sh!t storm of greater proportions than the red shirt demonstrations. The amnesty issue coupled with the nationalists clambering for an invasion of Cambodia could very well topple this government - through demonstrations or a coup.

Unfortunately, democracy does little to temper nationalism by any country. Other countries just try to be more covert about it. But I don't want to 'drone' on about it.

[473geo]

Seems quite easy to understand

The International court will rule based on history, fact and documented historical evidence,

Why arrange protest when the verdict is unknown?

The damage this issue can attract for various goverments has long been a more important feature for the reactionaries/nationalists than the land ownership

To the extent that the most recent 'visit' to protest was halted by the Thai locals who appear just to wish to live in peace

Edited November 10, 2013 by 473geo

[pisico]

What really guts these imbeciles is that this kicks into touch their claims that they were never colonised, influenced or dominated by a foreign power ever....ever...

it can be quite sad/funny seeing the wind being sucked out of the toad-faced, key ring laden halfwits as they sit slumped in a plastic chair as they clamour over a cheap bottle of 100 Pipers...with their arms flopping around like wet socks on a washing line...

QUOTE "they were never colonised, influenced or dominated by a foreign power ever....ever..."

Worse. Does the almost 2 year Japanese occupation of Thailand count?

Do they teach this sad chapter of Thai history in schools? Do they remember letting Japan march all over Thailand without a fight (OK. in deference to the Thai apologists: there was a police detail that fired a few shots at the Japs and were quickly ordered to stand down) when thumping their chests and vowing to retake the Khmer ruins?

Imagine Cambodia trying to retake the temple Phanom Rung built by the Khmers in today's Buriram. That would be unacceptable!

What of the Sultanate of Pattani taken and annexed by force under king Rhamkhmamen?

To take from others is OK. To give back to others... well, that is not in their DNA

[siampolee]

To my mind the saddest fact of it all is that the writer of the article actually had his work published in the press, he is nothing more than a common rabble rouser a born again cyber Che Guevara type who is safely ensconced in front of his computer playing xenophobic games on his keyboard.

If he was asked to go and defend the area in the event of the I.C.J. verdict going against Thailand one wonders whether he would have the courage of his convictions or would the result of him being asked to defend the area in question physically that he so stoutly defends in the press would the result in that case be a massive uncontrolled bowel movement on his part?

Remember that tomorrow on the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month we remember those who have died as a result of hostilities .it might well be a salutary lesson for Thais if they were to understand and participate in the ceremony just what conflict entails. Like many others here I and they no doubt did not find warfare such a fun game it's not a paintball park it's reality and reality kills.,.

The article written by Zoom would kill and will kill if due to it misguided amateurs go to play soldiers.

Edited November 10, 2013 by siampolee

[Lakegeneve]

What's happened with the landmine clearance projects in the vicinity of Preah Vihear? Are more being laid by Thailand/ Cambodia?

These are ongoing primarily on the Cambodia side and primarily in relation to UXOs from the 70s and 80s. Those mines that were laid in during the periods of sporadic armed conflict in 2010/11 were most likely in breach of international law - as was the use of cluster munitions.

This is one of the reasons why even though there is a Joint Border Committee mandated to demarcate the Cambodia - Thailand border, much of it remains undemarcated. (As most of it is on the Burma side). Demining needs to take place first. Land mines and UXOs remain a plague in border areas. On the Cambodia side it is a major problem, some 86 people have been killed as of the end of Sept this year. Now and then a Thai is injured or killed.

The consequences of land mines remains for decades after armies have departed the battle field. That is one of the reasons why they have been banned under the Ottawa land mine treaty (though the major players have not ratified the treaty)

[Thait Spot]

Seems quite easy to understand

 

The International court will rule based on history, fact and documented historical evidence,

 

Why arrange protest when the verdict is unknown?

 

The damage this issue can attract for various goverments has long been a more important feature for the reactionaries/nationalists than the land ownership

 

To the extent that the most recent 'visit' to protest was halted by the Thai locals who appear just to wish to live in peace

Why arrange a protest when the verdict is unknown?

Why hand out the judges' personal details when the verdict has not been arrived at?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[tragickingdom]

The term is not Nationalists, but Neo fascists.