Scotland to become independent in March 2016 if referendum passes

[7by7]

(Quotes of previous posts removed to comply with forum software)

.......why did you (7by7) remove the Wiki link mid sentence that says, very clearly, 'citation needed'? For a man who insists on links to unambiguous information, surely an uncited wiki entry falls way below your standard of proof?

I always remove citations when quoting from Wiki; for clarity.

But those citations, or lack of them, are there in the original for all to see; as you have proven.

Those little faux pas aside, I am interested in how you can take an estimate and make it a certainty?

Ask Alex Salmond and the rest of the Yes campaign. Their whole economic case is based upon estimates!

Have a read of Financial Reflections: Oil predictions & an independent Scotlands future finances.

It's interesting reading, this little gem is very much so:

....somewhat oddly perhaps, the Scottish Government report incorporated the higher oil and gas revenues in their projections for Scotland but not in the comparator figures for the UK fiscal position......

The SNP massaging the figures, again!

[jpinx]

I give up with the messy quotes software -- it's hard enough dealing with the messy thought processes in this thread !!

All projections are "massaged" by both sides - to enhance their case. All politicians lie. All forecasts are merely a matter of opinion but also based on the leanings of the forecaster.

It's all smoke and mirrors -- really it's about self-determination. Unfortunatley we have to make a choice of politicans, but both sides have some real whacko people with outlandish opinions amongst them. No solution is perfect, but which solution will the people of Scotland be happiest with ?

[jpinx]

It is a forecast; yes. As is that produced by the Treasury.

But it is a forecast the SNP didn't want people to know about and so lied about.

--------------------------------------

Two points 7by7,,,

If the treasury produced forecasts worth reading we would not have been through continuous cycles of boom and bust since goodness-knows-when

All politicians lie -- it's their job

It's a sad day when we rely on Treasury forecasts, the utterings of prompted politicians, and wikipedia to decide our future -- in this or any other matter...

No matter how unreliable, or otherwise, Treasury forecasts have been; at least they don't lie about them and try to hide their real figures from the public.

Unlike the SNP!

....................................

Treasury forecasts are written for WESTMINSTER -- not for Scotland.

Please check the authors agenda before you read it.

There are no "REAL" figures -- they are all forecasts.

[RuamRudy]

(Quotes of previous posts removed to comply with forum software)

.......why did you (7by7) remove the Wiki link mid sentence that says, very clearly, 'citation needed'? For a man who insists on links to unambiguous information, surely an uncited wiki entry falls way below your standard of proof?

I always remove citations when quoting from Wiki; for clarity.

But those citations, or lack of them, are there in the original for all to see; as you have proven.

Those little faux pas aside, I am interested in how you can take an estimate and make it a certainty?

Ask Alex Salmond and the rest of the Yes campaign. Their whole economic case is based upon estimates!

Have a read of Financial Reflections: Oil predictions & an independent Scotlands future finances.

It's interesting reading, this little gem is very much so:

....somewhat oddly perhaps, the Scottish Government report incorporated the higher oil and gas revenues in their projections for Scotland but not in the comparator figures for the UK fiscal position......

The SNP massaging the figures, again!

Sorry - still haven't found the time to learn how to split up others' posts for point by point response. However...

I presume that you will accept that your first point, about remaining reserves, is meaningless because the link you provided is irrelevant in that it does not cover the Clyde Basin, and as a piece of data it is not to be trusted because it has no reference to any verifiable piece of analysis. In short, you have no idea how much oil reserves there are in Scottish waters.

As for turning estimates into certainties - I am not asking Salmond; I am asking you! You very confidently stated that an estimate was conclusive evidence of a fact, so I will repeat my question: how can YOU, 7by7, take an estimate and make a certainty?

Who is massaging things here? I think you need to take that beam from your eye!

[nontabury]

I give up with the messy quotes software -- it's hard enough dealing with the messy thought processes in this thread !!

All projections are "massaged" by both sides - to enhance their case. All politicians lie. All forecasts are merely a matter of opinion but also based on the leanings of the forecaster.

It's all smoke and mirrors -- really it's about self-determination. Unfortunatley we have to make a choice of politicans, but both sides have some real whacko people with outlandish opinions amongst them. No solution is perfect, but which solution will the people of Scotland be happiest with ?

Agree with your assessment of politicians, however may I make a suggestion, if Scotland wishes to have politicians of a higher capability then those they have produced during the last 50yrs, they need to look no further than Bangkok.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[jpinx]

I give up with the messy quotes software -- it's hard enough dealing with the messy thought processes in this thread !!

All projections are "massaged" by both sides - to enhance their case. All politicians lie. All forecasts are merely a matter of opinion but also based on the leanings of the forecaster.

It's all smoke and mirrors -- really it's about self-determination. Unfortunatley we have to make a choice of politicans, but both sides have some real whacko people with outlandish opinions amongst them. No solution is perfect, but which solution will the people of Scotland be happiest with ?

Agree with your assessment of politicians, however may I make a suggestion, if Scotland wishes to have politicians of a higher capability then those they have produced during the last 50yrs, they need to look no further than Bangkok.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[transam]

I give up with the messy quotes software -- it's hard enough dealing with the messy thought processes in this thread !!

All projections are "massaged" by both sides - to enhance their case. All politicians lie. All forecasts are merely a matter of opinion but also based on the leanings of the forecaster.

It's all smoke and mirrors -- really it's about self-determination. Unfortunatley we have to make a choice of politicans, but both sides have some real whacko people with outlandish opinions amongst them. No solution is perfect, but which solution will the people of Scotland be happiest with ?

Agree with your assessment of politicians, however may I make a suggestion, if Scotland wishes to have politicians of a higher capability then those they have produced during the last 50yrs, they need to look no further than Bangkok.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I wonder if the Scots politicians working for Scotland now will be executed if a YES vote.....? ...............

[smokie36]

I give up with the messy quotes software -- it's hard enough dealing with the messy thought processes in this thread !!

All projections are "massaged" by both sides - to enhance their case. All politicians lie. All forecasts are merely a matter of opinion but also based on the leanings of the forecaster.

It's all smoke and mirrors -- really it's about self-determination. Unfortunatley we have to make a choice of politicans, but both sides have some real whacko people with outlandish opinions amongst them. No solution is perfect, but which solution will the people of Scotland be happiest with ?

Quite simply governing our own country will allow us to make the best decisions for the people of Scotland...putting them first and preventing the conservative party from milking our assets and treating us as second class citizens... sorry...subjects....due to none of our constituencies being willing to send their representatives into parliament.

[tw25rw]

Have they started negotiating to join the Euro yet?

[smokie36]

Have they started negotiating to join the Euro yet?

Of course not....if you understood the political process better you would know there is no one to negotiate with.

[tw25rw]

Have they started negotiating to join the Euro yet?

Of course not....if you understood the political process better you would know there is no one to negotiate with.

Well if the Bank of England aren't going to supply them with sterling, what will they use for money? Or are they going to continue with the Scottish pound and try to peg it?

[smokie36]

Have they started negotiating to join the Euro yet?

Of course not....if you understood the political process better you would know there is no one to negotiate with.

Well if the Bank of England aren't going to supply them with sterling, what will they use for money? Or are they going to continue with the Scottish pound and try to peg it?

This is simply posturing by the UK government of the day.

[tw25rw]

You hope.. Could be said that the SNP saying otherwise is posturing as well. They are taking a big risk, especially as their secession will increase the odds of a Tory govt in London.

[smokie36]

You hope.. Could be said that the SNP saying otherwise is posturing as well. They are taking a big risk, especially as their secession will increase the odds of a Tory govt in London.

You'll find no one in Scotland will give a rat's ass what the outcome of an English election is after voting YES.

You have to peek over the fence tw and see the brave new world.

On the issue of sterling it makes no sense for England to prevent Scotland from using a common currency...only a political and monetary suicide from the English will result in us forming our own haggis or whisky currency....

[nontabury]

Have they started negotiating to join the Euro yet?

According to the SNP everything they demand will be granted, or at least according to the supporters of the yes campaign.

Good news yesterday from STV, the gap between the YES vote and the NO vote is closing, and to guarantee a Yes vote, Gordon Bigot Brown is now leading the NO campaign.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[smokie36]

Have they started negotiating to join the Euro yet?

According to the SNP everything they demand will be granted, or at least according to the supporters of the yes campaign.

Good news yesterday from STV, the gap between the YES vote and the NO vote is closing, and to guarantee a Yes vote, Gordon Bigot Brown is now leading the NO campaign.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Yes its quite apt that yesterday's man is leading the no campaign....his final gift to Scotland.

[Pattszero]

To my fellow independence minded members here.

May I suggest on many levels that you are wasting your time arguing on this thread with people that have no say, no vote in the referendum. Please make your way towards the multiple social media threads available which target the genuine electoral pool. We need every effort possible in the upcoming election to secure a Yes vote, and I can see that there are many passionate voices here. Put your effort where it counts, aim it directly at the electorate.

You are being sold a dummy on this thread.

[nontabury]

Have they started negotiating to join the Euro yet?

According to the SNP everything they demand will be granted, or at least according to the supporters of the yes campaign.

Good news yesterday from STV, the gap between the YES vote and the NO vote is closing, and to guarantee a Yes vote, Gordon Bigot Brown is now leading the NO campaign.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Yes its quite apt that yesterday's man is leading the no campaign....his final gift to Scotland.

I've never been a fan of David Cameron, but I'm now beginning to think that perhaps he's very clever or extremely stupid. He more or less left it to A.S to decide to hold the vote in Sept 2014 the anniversary of Bannockburn, thus feeding the narrow minded nationalist cause, rather than holding it last year on the anniversary of Flodden. This will soon be followed by the Commonwealth games to be held in Glasgow, where in the event of Scotland winning any medals, disregarding in how minor a sport, the Nationalist are sure to milk to the very last drop.

So it would seem that A.S has completely controlled the time table for this vote, in addition being granting his wish, for all the mature (gullible) 16yr olds to be allowed to vote. So why has D.C agreed to all of A.S demands, well just maybe he hopes ( some hope) to guarantee a Conservative government at Westminster for the foreseeable future, at the same time blaming Labour for the break up, by putting forward to head the No campaign, firstly Alastair Darling the Scottish chancellor of the Exchequer in the last Labour government, and now Gordon Bigot Brown. The juries out.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[transam]

@ Pizza,

So do a lot of blokes from far off lands it seems..........

[Scott]

Inflammatory posts and replies deleted.

[transam]

You YES voters here, what do you think about the Scots NO voters view on stuff, which seems to be around 50% at the moment....?

[smokie36]

You YES voters here, what do you think about the Scots NO voters view on stuff, which seems to be around 50% at the moment....?

They have yet to throw of the shackles of self doubt....but more and more do with each passing day trans am.

[transam]

You YES voters here, what do you think about the Scots NO voters view on stuff, which seems to be around 50% at the moment....?

They have yet to throw of the shackles of self doubt....but more and more do with each passing day trans am.

Cool, but unfortunately the ordinary guy in the street has no control over anything we vote for AFTER the event, whether English, Scots or Welsh regarding anything. The word trust now means nothing to any of us, been around a long time and learned that.

[tw25rw]

You hope.. Could be said that the SNP saying otherwise is posturing as well. They are taking a big risk, especially as their secession will increase the odds of a Tory govt in London.

You'll find no one in Scotland will give a rat's ass what the outcome of an English election is after voting YES.

You have to peek over the fence tw and see the brave new world.

On the issue of sterling it makes no sense for England to prevent Scotland from using a common currency...only a political and monetary suicide from the English will result in us forming our own haggis or whisky currency....

A brave new world of a generation of young Scots heading south to look for work.

[tw25rw]

You hope.. Could be said that the SNP saying otherwise is posturing as well. They are taking a big risk, especially as their secession will increase the odds of a Tory govt in London.

On the issue of sterling it makes no sense for England to prevent Scotland from using a common currency...only a political and monetary suicide from the English will result in us forming our own haggis or whisky currency....

Why would it be suicide for England? It would create a situation similar to the one that kept the UK out of the Euro zone. Not being in full control of the currency. And it would create a situation where you achieved your cherished independence, but at the same time remained dependent.

[7by7]

It is a forecast; yes. As is that produced by the Treasury.

But it is a forecast the SNP didn't want people to know about and so lied about.

--------------------------------------

Two points 7by7,,,

If the treasury produced forecasts worth reading we would not have been through continuous cycles of boom and bust since goodness-knows-when

All politicians lie -- it's their job

It's a sad day when we rely on Treasury forecasts, the utterings of prompted politicians, and wikipedia to decide our future -- in this or any other matter...

No matter how unreliable, or otherwise, Treasury forecasts have been; at least they don't lie about them and try to hide their real figures from the public.

Unlike the SNP!

....................................

Treasury forecasts are written for WESTMINSTER -- not for Scotland.

Please check the authors agenda before you read it.

There are no "REAL" figures -- they are all forecasts.

Err, yes; forecasts are forecasts. Where have I denied that?

But, as I said, the Treasury have produced one set of forecasts and published them.

Unlike the SNP, who have produced one very optimistic set of forecasts for public consumption and another, far gloomier set of forecasts which they tried to hide.

Which set of SNP forecasts has more credence?

The ones for public consumption, or the ones they tried desperately to hide from the public?

[7by7]

I presume that you will accept that your first point, about remaining reserves, is meaningless because the link you provided is irrelevant in that it does not cover the Clyde Basin, and as a piece of data it is not to be trusted because it has no reference to any verifiable piece of analysis. In short, you have no idea how much oil reserves there are in Scottish waters.

Is the Clyde no longer in the West of Scotland, then?

BTW, read the other link I provided.

As for turning estimates into certainties - I am not asking Salmond; I am asking you! You very confidently stated that an estimate was conclusive evidence of a fact, so I will repeat my question: how can YOU, 7by7, take an estimate and make a certainty?

Who is massaging things here? I think you need to take that beam from your eye!

"You very confidently stated that an estimate was conclusive evidence of a fact..."

Really? Kindly show me where I said that.

[7by7]

Have they started negotiating to join the Euro yet?

Of course not....if you understood the political process better you would know there is no one to negotiate with.

Well if the Bank of England aren't going to supply them with sterling, what will they use for money? Or are they going to continue with the Scottish pound and try to peg it?

This is simply posturing by the UK government of the day.

Why should the UK government and the Bank of England allow a foreign country to use Sterling?

Of course, if the government of an independent Scotland wants to peg their own currency to Sterling, as the RoI did until the 1970s, that is up to them.

But if you want independence from the UK, why do you want your currency controlled by the UK government and central bank?

All of which is probably irrelevant as it assumes the EU waives for an independent Scotland the requirement that all new members adopt the Euro.

[RuamRudy]

I presume that you will accept that your first point, about remaining reserves, is meaningless because the link you provided is irrelevant in that it does not cover the Clyde Basin, and as a piece of data it is not to be trusted because it has no reference to any verifiable piece of analysis. In short, you have no idea how much oil reserves there are in Scottish waters.

Is the Clyde no longer in the West of Scotland, then?

BTW, read the other link I provided.

As for turning estimates into certainties - I am not asking Salmond; I am asking you! You very confidently stated that an estimate was conclusive evidence of a fact, so I will repeat my question: how can YOU, 7by7, take an estimate and make a certainty?

Who is massaging things here? I think you need to take that beam from your eye!

"You very confidently stated that an estimate was conclusive evidence of a fact..."

Really? Kindly show me where I said that.

The link which you provided was to a piece of data that had absolutely no reference associated with it - and it referred to the North Sea, onshore and West of Shetland. Where do you suggest the Clyde Basin comes in?

You then used this highly dubious and clearly wrong reference, which even used the word 'estimate' and you wrote, "There is certainly not enough oil reserves to fund the high state benefits, low taxation regime the Yes campaign promise for very long." On what basis do you make that statement, if not flawed supposition?

[7by7]

Read the other link provided; which makes that point very clear.

Read the leaked SNP document.

Read the multitude of other data on the subject.

If you want independence, that is your right; provided the majority want it too.

But make a proper decision based on all the evidence; not one based upon the rosy view of a peoples' paradise governed by benevolent, altruistic philanthropists you have peddled so often in this topic.

In other words, decide with your head, not your heart.