Retirement visa extension restrictions for foreign married couples

[moe666]

Always love the responses here you would think there are only Europeans, people from the United Kingdom, and the Americas who are retired here. Go back and read the OP one of the reasons was because of up coming changes in the Asean visa rules in 2 years. Yes and all free rides come to an end some day, sorry for the inconvenience.

[ubonjoe]

Always love the responses here you would think there are only Europeans, people from the United Kingdom, and the Americas who are retired here. Go back and read the OP one of the reasons was because of up coming changes in the Asean visa rules in 2 years. Yes and all free rides come to an end some day, sorry for the inconvenience.

The mention of the AEC ( ASEAN Economic Community) was only supposition. In reality it will have no effect on anybody other than citizens of ASEAN countries and even that will be limited.

[thaigold]

This is just a "Tempest in a Teapot." The law is not unreasonable. With the advent of ASEAN on the horizon, the Thais are simply putting in place the same laws the Australia, England, or many other countries around the world enforce.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Does anyone have a link that has the official requirements put out by Thai Immigration? I have searched and can find nothing.

As UbonJoe posted earlier in response to my question, the OP here is a copied version of a PattayaToday article... that has no quotes from any policy language, and doesn't quote anyone from Thai Immigration in any capacity.

Take it for what it's worth... Maybe it's true and it's the start of a national policy change... Or... maybe it's not.

[deepcell]

With that ammount of money I can go easily live in India or Burma or Camboja or Philipinies.. or even go live in US. What thai immigration is really thinking about? It will just increase illegal issues in the country, since so many retirees are not capable to do what they ask for!

Sorry but another bull**** from immigration.

[Maestro]

Removed some off-topic posts and flames.

[moe666]

With that ammount of money I can go easily live in India or Burma or Camboja or Philipinies.. or even go live in US. What thai immigration is really thinking about? It will just increase illegal issues in the country, since so many retirees are not capable to do what they ask for!

Sorry but another bull**** from immigration.

Then if they cannot meet the requirements then they will go live in one of the countries you mentioned. In the end countries set the retirement rules and laws for the needs of their country not for people who may want to retire there, meet the requirements or find another place

[NancyL]

It has come as a big surprise to some of my expat lady friends that their visa ends seven days after their marriage ends if their husbands had them set up with a dependent visa. I never understood why their older, less healthy husbands thought they were doing their wives a favor to set up a bank account solely in their ( the husband's name), with their wife on a dependent visa status and then tell their wife "don't worry honey, everything is taken care of". They could have just as easily set up the bank account in their wives name and made themselves the dependent visa, if they'd actually been realistic enough to admit they'd probably be the first to pass.

Those who have read this forum faithfully for a long time know I always encourage couples to have independent visas. I've just seen too many situations where women have real problems during times when they can least handle more problems. Not just with the death of a spouse, but yes, in situations where couples stay married for the sake of a visa even though the man has moved off with a new Thai g/f. The least bad thing that can happen is the guy fails to show up for the visa extension appointment. The worst bad thing that can happen is the guy has a major road accident and the new Thai g/f dumps him back on the wife for care because, after all, they're still legally married.

So count me in the camp that applauds this new rule change. And yes, for the record, Hubby and I each have our own retirement visas. Always have, always will.

Edited December 3, 2013 by NancyL

[nontabury]

This only hurts middle and lower class farang.

So does that make it OK ?

[OJAS]

Does anyone have a link that has the official requirements put out by Thai Immigration? I have searched and can find nothing.

As UbonJoe posted earlier in response to my question, the OP here is a copied version of a PattayaToday article... that has no quotes from any policy language, and doesn't quote anyone from Thai Immigration in any capacity.

Take it for what it's worth... Maybe it's true and it's the start of a national policy change... Or... maybe it's not.

If the British Embassy nonsense spouted in the final 2 paragraphs of this article is representative of Pattaya Today's (seemingly non-existent) reporting standards, then I am supremely confident that the rest of the article will likewise prove nonsensical and should therefore be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Until/unless we catch wind of any official Immigration announcement, I really don't think that we should lose any sleep over this. In the meantime my advice to everyone is "Don't believe everything you read in the paper"!

[DrTuner]

Until/unless we catch wind of any official Immigration announcement, I really don't think that we should lose any sleep over this. In the meantime my advice to everyone is "Don't believe everything you read in the paper"!

Give it a few days. The immigration orders I've seen have been translated from Thai to English by third parties such as Tilleke & Gibbins. The Thai version is probably being distributed by fax to immigration offices, that too takes time. It ain't high tech here.

[MeowBundit]

The things are simple.

This is total failure in understanding situation, if someone thinks, Kingdom really need retirees here. The most retirees I know, spent as little as mid-class Thais for living and of course, they not pay any taxes. For others there is no real problem to put 50k USD once per year to their accounts here. There is a "trick" to swap money between accounts and apply independently too. The real thing which is really needed - tourists with fast turnover, who spend 2k USD per 1-2 week and go home.

I always think the real future here is for rich people, who solve anything with money, or for people who married with locals. Anyone other, with no-tights to local life will go home earlier or later.

[hgma]

There is no further info from immigration available about this change at this time

i had a quick chat at NK immigration on this subject.

Their comment.

"Not yet enforced.......long time issue..........goodbye"

[puukao]

Thailand should IMMEDIATELY add 100 baht to every visa. Then make it clear all farangs SPEND 1 million baht per year, not just keep in account. Then make all retirement farangs BUY a house, but if die it goes to Thais.

every country must act like a business so they can make tons of money. no country wants poor people.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There is no further info from immigration available about this change at this time

i had a quick chat at NK immigration on this subject.

Their comment.

"Not yet enforced.......long time issue..........goodbye"

There have been a series of inaccurate immigration-related reports, put forward as "news" items, posted here over the past few years. After a lot of initial uproar and alarm, people here in this online community ultimately discovered that what was reported simply wasn't true.

Dunno if this OP report will turn out to be yet another one of those unfortunate examples that I'd like to hope occurred simply because of the often shoddy news reporting that goes on here, and not any attempt to simply gin up webpage hits/views.

[ThaiLawOnline]

I don't think it is new. I heard it before and I would disagree with it.

The rules are the same since 2008 and are called POLICE ORDER 777/2551. Our office first translated these rules for foreigners in Thailand in we put it in 2008 on Thaivisa.

You can find them on the Thai immigration official website with another translation later done by another law firm:

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/temporarystay/policy777-2551_en.pdf

Under 2.22, you can read EACH PERMISSION, or it is said about ONE APPLICANT.

Under 2.20, read carefully, we call this a DEPENDANT VISA. We have many clients granted a visa under 2.1 (business) and their family (legal wife or children) are granted under 2.20 without showing money because it is mentioned.

2.20 mentions 2.22 and doesn't mention an additional amount or anything else. Therefore, unless I can see new regulations adopted by the Thai government, I tend to think that there is no modifications. Show me that I am wrong...

Thailand and often I feel it is a law-less country. For me, the law is clear. But it is also reasonable to ask 2 incomes from 2 people if it is the case.

I would challenge that under clause 30 of the Thai constitution saying that ALL PEOPLE are equal. Therefore, should the foreigner married to a Thai wife be penalised if you compare the foreigner married to a foreign wife?

Very interesting legal debate.

[cpofc]

So they think "farangs" will marry each other to get a thai visa? Yeah, we are the scammers here,right?

As a matter of a fact, YES they would!!

Two years ago I had an Australian female, a friend of a friend, (who BTW is no longer my friend), a woman, who BTW I hardly knew, asked me to marry her so she could get a long stay visa in Thailand as I am here on a valid retirement visa. She was in her early forties, an alcoholic, and on Welfare back in Oz, workers comp, for Stress. Compliments of the Australian Public Service where the practice is rife in the Land of the Great Long Weekend.

When I laughed in her face and told her it would never happen, I was then subjected to some attempted manipulation, which also didn't work.

So, you think Immigration rorts only work in reverse do you?

Think again.

Edited December 3, 2013 by cpofc

[jacko45k]

So they think "farangs" will marry each other to get a thai visa? Yeah, we are the scammers here,right?

...and what married retired couples in Thailand have a joint annual income equivalent to GBP 32,000...? If we placed such a restriction on Thais entering the UK, they'd be screaming "racists"....!!

Well there are quite a few more restrictions on Thais entering the UK than vice-versa aren't there.... good bit of paperwork involved for me to take my long-term partner there.

Back to topic....

Hereby forcing couples who have had a joint account for maybe many years to open another account, and find 800,000 to put in it.

Although I like the idea that they could slip one of their retirement extension dates by 4 months and then the same 800k could be transferred back and forth.

I am unsure what has prompted this..... I know some falang-falang couples, but not that many, and I can only imagine those that are separated to be a smaller number still, and also not to be on such amicable terms that they collude to get their retirement extensions.

I feel it is just a general animosity by Thailand against providing a place for retired foreigners.....

[PoorSucker]

I would challenge that under clause 30 of the Thai constitution saying that ALL PEOPLE are equal. Therefore, should the foreigner married to a Thai wife be penalised if you compare the foreigner married to a foreign wife?

Very interesting legal debate.

Clause 30 of the Thai constitution does not seem to apply for clause 2.18 in police order 777/2551.

Females married to Thai men does not have to show any income or assets but men married to Thai female must do.

(6) In case of marriage with a Thai lady, the husband who is an alien must have an average annual income of not less than 40,000 baht per month or a money deposit in a local Thai bank of not less than 400,000 baht for the past 2 months for expenses within a year.

[ChrisKC]

I have had joint retirement visa with my English wife for 8 consecutive years. For 5 of those years we showed joint income from separate accounts. For the last three years, my wife has been the one showing the entire B800,000 for us both. In my case, it is the husband tagging along with the wife, not the other way round!

But are the new regulations for first-timers only? Which I think would be fair.

I am not sure what the point of a joint application would be if the new ideas come to pass!

[ubonjoe]

I don't think it is new. I heard it before and I would disagree with it.The rules are the same since 2008 and are called POLICE ORDER 777/2551. Our office first translated these rules for foreigners in Thailand in we put it in 2008 on Thaivisa.You can find them on the Thai immigration official website with another translation later done by another law firm:http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/temporarystay/policy777-2551_en.pdfUnder 2.22, you can read EACH PERMISSION, or it is said about ONE APPLICANT.Under 2.20, read carefully, we call this a DEPENDANT VISA. We have many clients granted a visa under 2.1 (business) and their family (legal wife or children) are granted under 2.20 without showing money because it is mentioned.2.20 mentions 2.22 and doesn't mention an additional amount or anything else. Therefore, unless I can see new regulations adopted by the Thai government, I tend to think that there is no modifications. Show me that I am wrong...Thailand and often I feel it is a law-less country. For me, the law is clear. But it is also reasonable to ask 2 incomes from 2 people if it is the case.I would challenge that under clause 30 of the Thai constitution saying that ALL PEOPLE are equal. Therefore, should the foreigner married to a Thai wife be penalised if you compare the foreigner married to a foreign wife?Very interesting legal debate.

This from the article in OP as the reason for the change.

The toughening up of the rules on retirement visas is believed to have been caused by concerns that some farang-farang marriages are not genuine or may have broken up.

This from 2.20 of police order.

(3) In the case of spouse, the relationship must be de jure and de facto; or

Why doesn't immigration enforce this part of clause instead of punishing everybody.They could start doing what they do for extensions based upon marriage to a Thai to enforce the exact same line as above. Require the couple to appear together for the application and conduct an interview. Give a 30 day under consideration stamp and do a home visit and/or investigation if interviewing officer determines it is needed.

[aveabeeror2]

How many people making the worthless comments will be affected by this new, and make sense, law?

No, sorry, you don't know what your talking about. If you think a couple now need 1.600,000 Bt to be worthy to live and spend money in Thailand

then ask for that. And if you are going to mess with peoples lives who have been living in Thailand for years by not grandfathering it in then be up front and say so.

It's the same old story... they came for my friend and I said nothing..... I guarentee you that however you are in Thailand you can be affected by the prescident of

not grandfathering in. Oh.... tomorrow, you need 3 million baht in the bank at 1% interest... so sorry it's policy now.

Ok, I guess we are clear, IMO who had the worthless comment.

The law is the law, if a person doesnt like it, they can always go back home. Thailand was never meant to be a retirement village.If you were back in your own country and some old age pensioners from another country who move there complained about govt. policy, what would you have to say about that?

most likely I would agree with them. But I would understand what I was talking about before I started talking at the big peoples table.

You state that most likely you would agree with them, then you say you would understand what you were talking about, then you accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about. What on this gods earth are YOU talking about. ?

[chrisinth]

It has come as a big surprise to some of my expat lady friends that their visa ends seven days after their marriage ends if their husbands had them set up with a dependent visa. I never understood why their older, less healthy husbands thought they were doing their wives a favor to set up a bank account solely in their ( the husband's name), with their wife on a dependent visa status and then tell their wife "don't worry honey, everything is taken care of". They could have just as easily set up the bank account in their wives name and made themselves the dependent visa, if they'd actually been realistic enough to admit they'd probably be the first to pass.

Those who have read this forum faithfully for a long time know I always encourage couples to have independent visas. I've just seen too many situations where women have real problems during times when they can least handle more problems. Not just with the death of a spouse, but yes, in situations where couples stay married for the sake of a visa even though the man has moved off with a new Thai g/f. The least bad thing that can happen is the guy fails to show up for the visa extension appointment. The worst bad thing that can happen is the guy has a major road accident and the new Thai g/f dumps him back on the wife for care because, after all, they're still legally married.

So count me in the camp that applauds this new rule change. And yes, for the record, Hubby and I each have our own retirement visas. Always have, always will.

Good post Nancy, highlights some of the problems currently faced.

I do know of a few married couples that have taken the option to retire here, but do we have a rough idea of how many couples that these new rule changes (potentially) affect? As I have said, I have met a few but that has been over a long timeline.

[aveabeeror2]

i am due to renew visa with a joint letter of income tomorrow, will it be accepted?

"Visas" are never renewed !

If you explain exactly what you are trying to achieve you may receive good advice .

Ignore him mate, everybody else knows what it is you are "getting" tomorrow. Ask at immigration if the new regs. are in place yet. You can basically ignore most of the advice given on TV.

[p_brownstone]

I'm not sure if this is totally topic related, but hopefully someone can help with this. If one person (wife) has a PR but is currently working (retires in June) but the husband is already retired. Right now the husband doesn't need a retirement visa as the wife has a work permit, but come June, the work for the wife finishes. In the past, the husband has just had to show his marriage license (and once a year the wife has to go to Immigaration). I know this sounds complicated, but just wonder if the husband has to get a retirement visa in June even if the wife has a PR. Do any of you know?

It will not apply to you. Your extension is under a different clause of the police order specificity for dependents of a person that has PR. In fact your current extension is under that clause I am sure.

Thanks so much for answering. This is reassuring along with being very helpful. Thanks again.

Are you sure the wife actually has Permanent Residence status in Thailand - if she has there is no need for her to visit Immigration every year.

Patrick

[ubonjoe]

 

 

I'm not sure if this is totally topic related, but hopefully someone can help with this.  If one person (wife) has a PR but is currently working (retires in June) but the husband is already retired.  Right now the husband doesn't need a retirement visa as the wife has a work permit, but come June, the work for the wife finishes.  In the past, the husband has just had to show his marriage license (and once a year the wife has to go to Immigaration).  I know this sounds complicated, but just wonder if the husband has to get a retirement visa in June even if the wife has a PR.  Do any of you know?

It will not apply to you. Your extension is under a different clause of the police order specificity for dependents of a person that has PR. In fact your current extension is under that clause I am sure.

 

Thanks so much for answering.  This is reassuring along with being very helpful.  Thanks again. 

Are you sure the wife actually has Permanent Residence status in Thailand - if she has there is no need for her to visit Immigration every year.

Patrick

I think it means she goes with him for his extensions.

[aveabeeror2]

i am due to renew visa with a joint letter of income tomorrow, will it be accepted?

"Visas" are never renewed !

If you explain exactly what you are trying to achieve you may receive good advice .

Ignore him mate, everybody else knows what it is you are "getting" tomorrow. Ask at immigration if the new regs. are in place yet. You can basically ignore most of the advice given on TV.

Here is a clue for Sceptic New Visa Restrictions for Foreign Married Couples

[dighambara]

The rapaciouness of the Thai government never ceases to amaze me.

T.I.T. - an adventure every day

It sounds fair. Two people, two incomes.

However, there is no provision for actual proof - as has been mentioned, just stagger the renewal dates and move the money around. This is already done between friends.

Western logic does not apply here - T.I.T.

[aveabeeror2]

The rapaciouness of the Thai government never ceases to amaze me.

T.I.T. - an adventure every day

It sounds fair. Two people, two incomes.

However, there is no provision for actual proof - as has been mentioned, just stagger the renewal dates and move the money around. This is already done between friends.

Western logic does not apply here - T.I.T.

Illegal .They are supposed to both have the required amount of money. Is your post lawful?

[PlastikbinLina]

This was to be expected! Any idea whether "grandfather" rule will be applied here as well, i.e. couples already on an extension of stay will be able to extend under previous rule of only one income/1x800K?

Sadly No. This new rule was introduced today at Phuket Immigration. Whether or not the retiree and dependant spouse has been here for many years or not, the spouse of the retiree must have a separate bank account, and the dependant spouse must be over 50. This new rule is going to affect many many couples. some who are well entrenched with properties now sitting at home in bliss unaware that the next time they apply for an extension they will hit a brick wall. I really feel for them.