Thai Mentality towards Tragedy

[eldragon]

Let me apologize in advance if this is construed as a political conversation and violates the forum rules. I'm just trying to understand a reaction I encountered today.

I'm one of two foreigners in a Thai office of about ten people. The other foreigner is Laos.

This morning I messaged one of my Thai coworkers about the violence in Thailand. I told her I was deeply saddened by the apparent deaths of several Thai children this weekend. Her resposne was a smiley faced image. My first reaction was "she misunderstood something in the way I wrote the message", so I came back with, "Do you understand? I'm not happy." She didn't respond.

Later on, I saw her outside the office and asked her if she understood my message. She said, "Yes, but I'm not serious [stressed] about this." Then she giggled and smirked.

I'd say there's a little animosity in my office, probably b/c I get paid more than most and generally do less work. But we all get along well. I have a better relationship with this woman than I do with others. We never spend time together outside of work, but we message each other often, and she has more than once called me "brother". Also, she is definitely an anti-government supporter.

I'm a little disappointed right now. I can't see any room for cultural differences there. It just seems really insensitive and naive. Any thoughts or ideas on her reaction? I asked one of my younger Thai friends and she said, "B/c it's not her family."

[Banzai99]

I think asking her would give you the answer you seek, you'll get nothing here but Thai bashing, most here don't even live in Thailand.

Ask Her !!!!

[eldragon]

I think asking her would give you the answer you seek, you'll get nothing here but Thai bashing, most here don't even live in Thailand.

Ask Her !!!!

Fair enough. But I did ask her, and that's when I got the "I'm not serious about this" reaction. I've found it's best not to push Thais for an answer when they're faced with a question they seemingly don't want to answer.

[bkkgooner]

Thais can be quite insensitive and blunt when it comes to tragic death but in this case the woman just sounds like a self obsessed idiot. It doesn't affect her life directly so she couldn't care any less.

Personally my girlfriend was outraged when she heard about the deaths as were most normal civilized people.

Edited February 24, 2014 by bkkgooner

[HeavyDrinker]

(Very) generally speaking, Thais have a different attitude toward emotions and displaying them, especially in public or to a stranger.

Last year my missus hadn't seen her mother in almost 4 years. When she met her mother at the airport, you'd have thought it had only been 4 hours...a quick hug, then the talk went onto dinner right away....that said, once we'd been waved off by her parents at Heathrow, she didn't stop blubbing for hours....

[GaoYuk]

When she grows up and has some kids of her own her view might change..

[Fookhaht]

There's a grain of truth in the reply of your younger Thai friend.

I would highly recommend the book Working with the Thais, by Henry Holmes and Suchada Tangtongtavy (can be found at Kinokuniya Bookstore at Paragon). I would direct you to chapter three "The Three Circles of Thailand." In a nutshell, it describes how Thai people perceive their relationships among three circles of society, which start with the family circle. It goes on to say how they can be extremely selfish and/or unfeeling towards the outermost circle, which would include the victims you are concerned about. The "third-circle relationships" also explain the Thais' seeming totally self-centered and childish behavior while driving.

Another aspect is the stoic attitude expected of a good Buddhist. From the book (p. 59):
"At a funeral, where a Westerner might expect to see tears, they are more likely to see stoicism. As one Thai father wrote of his daughter's ideal comportment, 'If someone close to her should die, she is not supposed to weep or moan about it, but rather to keep her feelings to herself. After all, they are her feelings, and she should not inflict them on others.'"

A third possibility may be found in your workmate's reaction: "she giggled and smirked." Thais will giggle or laugh when embarrassed or under pressure. It's possible she wasn't ready to share her feelings with a workmate, and a foreigner at that. Her predictable reaction might be a giggle, which of course, seems completely out of place to a westerner who has just expressed such serious sentiments. Not an unusual response, considering the possible circumstances of your communication.

Uncovering the layers of culture is one of the fascinating things about living abroad. The aforementioned book was a god-send to me to speed up my understanding of Thais, particularly in the workplace.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Fookhaht

[Fookhaht]

Thais can be quite insensitive and blunt when it comes to tragic death but in this case the woman just sounds like a self obsessed idiot. It doesn't affect her life directly so she couldn't care any less.

Personally my girlfriend was outraged when she heard about the deaths as were most normal civilized people.

The Thai friends I have who are outraged are mostly embarrassed for the country's reputation, Thai society/culture in general, and for their own bleak prospects of a peaceful life in the near or far future--not necessarily for the specific victims in question.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Fookhaht

[Sheryl]

.... Thais will giggle or laugh when embarrassed or under pressure.....

+1

And also smile, which is what her reply was doing. the Southeast Asian smile has a much broader application than smiles do in the West, and is often used to mask discomfort and other emotions.

This woman has signaled that she is uncomfortable discussing this. Respect that fact and no point in trying to derive meaning beyond that.

[CharlieH]

Why does it bother you so much what she thinks or how she reacts ? whatever her opinion or attitude is, does not need justifying to you does it ?

You have to remember that western morals and ideals etc have no place here and are often confusing and even irritating to other cultures etc and are viewed as equally crazy or whatever to them as they are to us.

As Sheryl rightly states, that smile is used for a multitude of reasons, including ignorance, embarrassment, guilt or a whole host of uses, when in doubt "just smile"

Edited February 24, 2014 by Sheryl
racist remark removed

[Sheryl]

P.S. I find that most Thais do not like to discuss Thai politics/social issues with foreigners and that it is best not to initiate discussions of these. If a Thai initiates the discussion with you, fine, otherwise I find it best to steer clear of these topics. This has always been the case (I'm here >20 years) but is most especially true in the current very tense and polarized climate. Even when you think you are expressing a sentiment the persona will agree with, you may unwittingly cause offense. People are unusually on edge.

Also there is the loss of face issue. These events directly contradict many deeply cherished Thai beliefs about themselves and their country and thus from a Thai point of view the fact that there is such internal discord -- violent at that -- is an enormous loss of face for Thailand. Thai etiquette requires that potential losses of face be ignored and not referred to. For a foreigner to reference them may be especially embarrassing.

[eldragon]

Why does it bother you so much what she thinks or how she reacts ? whatever her opinion or attitude is, does not need justifying to you does it ?

You have to remember that western morals and ideals etc have no place here and are often confusing and even irritating to other cultures etc and are viewed as equally crazy or whatever to them as they are to us.

I have to share space with Thais every day. And I'm happier understanding my hosts reactions, behavoir, customs, etc. than I am thinking they're insensitive <deleted>.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Sheryl
quote edited to remove racist comment

[CharlieH]

Why does it bother you so much what she thinks or how she reacts ? whatever her opinion or attitude is, does not need justifying to you does it ?.... As for any chance of an intellectual discussion or exchange is concerned you would have more success with the monkeys in Lopburi.

A pretty harsh view toward both the OP and the Thai colleague, which includes a racist remark.

How have you gotten up to so many posts without getting your posting rights suspended?

Nothing harsh about it, that's your perception and says more about you than whats actually been said in the post. As with a lot of written text where there is no obvious expression, tone or body language you are assuming the intent and therefore speaks more to you disposition if you were offended by it.

[slipperylobster]

Thais can be quite insensitive and blunt when it comes to tragic death but in this case the woman just sounds like a self obsessed idiot. It doesn't affect her life directly so she couldn't care any less.

Personally my girlfriend was outraged when she heard about the deaths as were most normal civilized people.

On the mark. Reactions have nothing to do with being Thai. My gal is Thai and was genuinely sad. I suppose some farangs had reactions the same as the girl the OP mentioned. More to do with personality than culture. Thanks for making it clear.

[Berkshire]

I think asking her would give you the answer you seek, you'll get nothing here but Thai bashing, most here don't even live in Thailand.

Ask Her !!!!

Fair enough. But I did ask her, and that's when I got the "I'm not serious about this" reaction. I've found it's best not to push Thais for an answer when they're faced with a question they seemingly don't want to answer.

People grieve in different ways. I'm sure you would feel more grief if a loved one had died, as opposed to someone you didn't know. To suggest differently would be dishonest. Do you get depressed every time you see on the news that someone needlessly died, say, in Syria? Well why not?

Perhaps it's not your intention, but your OP comes across as self-righteous indignation, that somehow you're morally superior to this co-worker of yours because she didn't respond as you think she should. Rather disingenuous, don't you think? Honestly, I try to steer clear of judgmental people like you.

[krisb]

Thais smile for more than being just happy. My wife smiles when I get another beer and she's really p'd off.

[eldragon]

Perhaps it's not your intention, but your OP comes across as self-righteous indignation, that somehow you're morally superior to this co-worker of yours because she didn't respond as you think she should. Rather disingenuous, don't you think? Honestly, I try to steer clear of judgmental people like you.

To be honest, my first reaction was "This girls an idiot. Or just self-centered." But then I considered the fact that there might be cultural differences with regards to this type of issue and decided to consult you lads. My apolgies if I sounded self-righteous. Thanks for all the feedback so far.

[Berkshire]

Perhaps it's not your intention, but your OP comes across as self-righteous indignation, that somehow you're morally superior to this co-worker of yours because she didn't respond as you think she should. Rather disingenuous, don't you think? Honestly, I try to steer clear of judgmental people like you.

To be honest, my first reaction was "This girls an idiot. Or just self-centered." But then I considered the fact that there might be cultural differences with regards to this type of issue and decided to consult you lads. My apolgies if I sounded self-righteous. Thanks for all the feedback so far.

Fair enough. But even if this girl was an "idiot, or self-centered" (and we have no way of really knowing), she is just one person. The Thais mentality towards tragedy in general is remarkably similar to everyone else.

[benalibina]

I think asking her would give you the answer you seek, you'll get nothing here but Thai bashing, most here don't even live in Thailand.

Ask Her !!!!

Fair enough. But I did ask her, and that's when I got the "I'm not serious about this" reaction. I've found it's best not to push Thais for an answer when they're faced with a question they seemingly don't want to answer.

People grieve in different ways. I'm sure you would feel more grief if a loved one had died, as opposed to someone you didn't know. To suggest differently would be dishonest. Do you get depressed every time you see on the news that someone needlessly died, say, in Syria? Well why not?

Perhaps it's not your intention, but your OP comes across as self-righteous indignation, that somehow you're morally superior to this co-worker of yours because she didn't respond as you think she should. Rather disingenuous, don't you think? Honestly, I try to steer clear of judgmental people like you.

At least you dont judge by reading your above comment.

[Fookhaht]

Why does it bother you so much what she thinks or how she reacts ? whatever her opinion or attitude is, does not need justifying to you does it ?.... As for any chance of an intellectual discussion or exchange is concerned you would have more success with the monkeys in Lopburi.

A pretty harsh view toward both the OP and the Thai colleague, which includes a racist remark.

How have you gotten up to so many posts without getting your posting rights suspended?

Nothing harsh about it, that's your perception and says more about you than whats actually been said in the post. As with a lot of written text where there is no obvious expression, tone or body language you are assuming the intent and therefore speaks more to you disposition if you were offended by it.

So labeling an entire race of human beings as being unable to have an "intellectual discussion," with less ability than than that of animals--that's not racist?

Frankly, your comment and subsequent sad attempt to backtrack, falls far below the benchmark that even you've put up in your posts for the 'hapless Thai nation.'

Living here with those kinds of attitudes, I pity your Thai neighbors or work colleagues--that is, if you have any who speak to you.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Fookhaht

[kimbathewhitelion]

Thais smile for more than being just happy. My wife smiles when I get another beer and she's really p'd off.

The Land of smiles is The Land of Lies...the greater the smile, the larger the lie. Figured this one out before learning any of the language. Never lose Face as long as you can get away with it.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[farang000999]

All I can say looking at my wife's facebook is that the anti-government supporters are extremely willing to post all kinds of (shocking) things and very open to verbal confrontation... all the government supporters seem to be in hiding... which begs the question why can't the yellow shirts win an election?

[kimbathewhitelion]

Why does it bother you so much what she thinks or how she reacts ? whatever her opinion or attitude is, does not need justifying to you does it ?.... As for any chance of an intellectual discussion or exchange is concerned you would have more success with the monkeys in Lopburi.

A pretty harsh view toward both the OP and the Thai colleague, which includes a racist remark.

How have you gotten up to so many posts without getting your posting rights suspended?

Nothing harsh about it, that's your perception and says more about you than whats actually been said in the post. As with a lot of written text where there is no obvious expression, tone or body language you are assuming the intent and therefore speaks more to you disposition if you were offended by it.

So labeling an entire race of human beings as being unable to have an "intellectual discussion," with less ability than than that of animals--that's not racist?

Frankly, your comment and subsequent sad attempt to backtrack, falls far below the benchmark that even you've put up in your posts for the 'hapless Thai nation.'

Living here with those kinds of attitudes, I pity your Thai neighbors or work colleagues--that is, if you have any who speak to you.

Gay...right...the wording fits or you're an eighty year old science teacher. Nothing that's wrong with it, but you're a bit too sensitive. "A race of human beings". Human beings we all are, not a race but is. The term "Race" however was created by human beings but what is the other...oh yes, Animals or our food.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[CharlieH]

Why does it bother you so much what she thinks or how she reacts ? whatever her opinion or attitude is, does not need justifying to you does it ?.... As for any chance of an intellectual discussion or exchange is concerned you would have more success with the monkeys in Lopburi.

A pretty harsh view toward both the OP and the Thai colleague, which includes a racist remark.

How have you gotten up to so many posts without getting your posting rights suspended?

Nothing harsh about it, that's your perception and says more about you than whats actually been said in the post. As with a lot of written text where there is no obvious expression, tone or body language you are assuming the intent and therefore speaks more to you disposition if you were offended by it.

So labeling an entire race of human beings as being unable to have an "intellectual discussion," with less ability than than that of animals--that's not racist?

Frankly, your comment and subsequent sad attempt to backtrack, falls far below the benchmark that even you've put up in your posts for the 'hapless Thai nation.'

Living here with those kinds of attitudes, I pity your Thai neighbors or work colleagues--that is, if you have any who speak to you.

Your perception is wrong yet again, exactly where did I mention a particular race ? the reference to the term "intellectual discussion" was meant that unless "he" (the OP) speaks fluent and comprehensive Thai or the lady concerned speaks fluent and comprehensive English, then they are not going to have an in depth intellectual discussion about anything! as the inter-action described in the OP suggests by the response he got and his apparent indignation at not getting the response he had maybe hoped for or expected.

Now you have chosen to get "personal" with your last remark, and i wont sink to your level by responding to it.

[Sheryl]

Flamefest officially OVER, you two.

[Sheryl]

an unhelpful post making personal remarks about the OP has been deleted.

There is nothing wrong with asking for help in understanding puzzling behavior in a foreign country. (There is, however, something wrong with the helpfulness of some of our posters...). This is exactly what the forum is here for.

[richard_smith237]

A proportion of the population here in Thailand seem to lack the emotional development to handle potentially sensitive issues in anything other than a juvenile manner.

These same negatives we see and discuss also come with positives which I’m sure are the reasons many of us remain here.

Along with their charms many cultures also have their flaws – Emotional immaturity just seems to be one of the flaws we see in some of the Thai population. I don’t think there is anything more serious to it than this – its innocent ignorance.

[Sheryl]

I'm not sure I would call it "juvenile", it is just culturally different.

It would be a mistake to equate giggling by a Thai with that of someone in the west (where it would indeed be juvenile behavior). It has a very different connotation here.

I find Thais to be just as able to handle difficult events and emotions maturely as people anywhere else, but the way they express themselves conforms to different cultural norms than ours.

[benalibina]

A proportion of the population here in Thailand seem to lack the emotional development to handle potentially sensitive issues in anything other than a juvenile manner.

These same negatives we see and discuss also come with positives which Im sure are the reasons many of us remain here.

Along with their charms many cultures also have their flaws Emotional immaturity just seems to be one of the flaws we see in some of the Thai population. I dont think there is anything more serious to it than this its innocent ignorance.

Innocent ignorance ! Choosen ignorance IMO. Education ?

[mauGR1]

I'm not sure I would call it "juvenile", it is just culturally different.

It would be a mistake to equate giggling by a Thai with that of someone in the west (where it would indeed be juvenile behavior). It has a very different connotation here.

I find Thais to be just as able to handle difficult events and emotions maturely as people anywhere else, but the way they express themselves conforms to different cultural norms than ours.

+1

Showing emotions is not necessarily better than hiding emotions.. Many people in the West are just as fake showing their emotions,as many Asians are fake hiding them.

I am in fact outraged by the death of innocent people, but showing my distress is not of any help to anybody.