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I just wish the bank would publish on their web sites or some one would upload documents that provide more detail on the bank's resolution process and timeline.

Pib, last night as I was looking, I came across the online bank card dispute resolution forms that Bangkok Bank uses for their debit and credit cards.

The forms list the various kinds of situations where the bank would reverse/cancel charges. Most of the situations involve things like processing errors, double billing, wrong amount billed, etc etc.

There's only one category that relates to the cardholder not having made the actual charge, and in that case, the bank requires you to certify that you were in possession of the card at the time the wrongful charge was made.

Kind of hard to satisfy that if your card has been lost or stolen. In other words, none of their criteria for reversing charges pertain to situations where the person's card has been lost or stolen.

That's not any absolute indicator of the bank's policy, but it does fit with the broader "the cardholder is liable" approach generally taken by the banks.

Though I should mention, in the past, I have contacted Bangkok Bank directly, and spoken to their fraud staff about the issue of cardholder liability. And not surprisingly, their fraud staff indicated the same as the various T&C excerpts from other banks I've posted above: policy is the cardholder is responsible for all charges incurred prior to reporting their card lost or stolen.

Perhaps the Thai banks do make exceptions to their "cardholder is liable" policies from time to time, depending on the circumstances. But the important part for the cardholder is: in the U.S. you are presumed "not guilty" by the law when it comes to responsibility for fraudulent charges. Here in Thailand, the cardholder is considered "guilty" unless somehow they can convince the bank otherwise.

The banking threads of ThaiVisa are filled with posts by various members who've been the victims of lost/stolen or skimmed cards and had fraudulent charges posted against their Thai accounts. When they go to their Thai bank, the bank's normal response is to give them the cold shoulder or bureaucratic shuffle. The share of posts by members who were actually reimbursed are more like the needle in the haystack.

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBankThai/Documents/Site%20Documents/Credit%20Card/CreditCardholdersDisputeLetter.pdf

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBankThai/Documents/Site%20Documents/Credit%20Card/Be1stCardholdersDisputeLetter.pdf

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...

Anyone who can read and understand plain English can understand what those excerpts mean.

...

Unfortunately tho you have read and misunderstood. Particularly no.4

Actually I d say they are not always easy to understand and they are not always in plain English either.

Para 5 is quite badly worded. I had to read the last but one sentence a couple of times talking about "group who accept(s) cc payment" and "stores". Quite a few English errors and its obviously a translation of the Thai and obviously they are not just talking about stores.

But if you know the subject you can make it out. On the other hand if you take only the English and have no experience of the subject in practice you can reach different conclusions... which you obviously do.

Cheers

Fletch :)

Sent from my GT-I9152 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

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As I've mentioned several times, apart from the liability policy excerpts I've posted above from the banks' own documents, I've also called and spoken directly with several of the Thai banks about their cardholder liability policies. And they related verbally, in response to questions about cardholder liability in the event of lost or stolen cards, is exactly what their policies say above. The cardholder is responsible for everything prior to reporting the card lost or stolen to the bank. That's really not that hard a concept to understand.

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rolleyes.gif For your information.

I just unblocked my U.S. ATM/debit card issued by a small regional bank in New England.

Took me 3 telephone callls and about 30 minutes before I could get anyone to listen to me.

Did finally get it resolved but only after being required to have it "cleared by approval" from the "fraud" office of that bank.

Reason for blocking my card originally was, "Because you never specifically informed the bank that your card might be used outside the U.S., your card was therefore blocked due to possible fraud by a charge from a source outside the U.S.".

This was a replacemnt card issed by this bank branch in Boston Massachusetts.

I remember clearly tellling the woman who issued it to me 4 or 5 times that I would be using the card overseas and specifically in Thailand, because i lived there as a retiree.

That information, that i planned to use the card in Thailand, apparently never got to the bank main office, so when i tied to book a hotel from Thailand my card was blocked.

I'm just passing this info to show you what kind of problrms it is possible you will have to deal with if you try to use a U.S. ATM/debitcard from the U.S. in Thailand.

Admittedly, this was a card from a small regional bank that doesn't have a lot of dealings with customers using their cards "overseas".

Some of the larger U.S. banks with more experience internationally might be different.

I'm just letting you know what happened to me. A "word tothe wise" you might say.

Cost me between $50 to $100 dollars and 3 telephone calls to get the card unblocked.

whistling.gif

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Your para on the 5 mins relates to how payments to stores etc are posted and how a vendor is notified that payments to that card are no longer accepted. I.e they will tell any vendor after 5 mins has elapsed the payment cant be processed. Before that they are processed as normal. As normal also includes what I wrote above just now.

From reading those Terms and Conditions extracts provided by TallGuy in his two earlier post I don't see how you are interpreting the 5 minute notification to mean what you say it means above....but it's still early in the morning and I haven't had my coffee to fully wake up yet. To me the Terms and Conditions are pretty clearly saying you are on the hook for any charges up until 5 minutes after you notify the bank...maybe I'm missing something as I didn't see anything about the 5 minute notification dealing with merchant notification/transaction feedback. And hopefully the bank's resolution process will release a person of any fraudulent charges made before the 5 minute notification assuming the card holder was indeed not at fault. I just wish the bank would publish on their web sites or some one would upload documents that provide more detail on the bank's resolution process and timeline.
Have a re-read of para 5 when you ve finished your coffee :)

In particular it is talking about the "use of the card DURING 5 MINUTES from the time the bank has been notified." I.e talking about a 5 min window. Not "any charges up until..."

The sentence before is talking about how it notifies the "group who accept credit card payment" (i.e "stores") or as we might say merchants or vendors a crad is no longer valid.

Basically they notify the stores the card is not valid but this takes a little time.

It is possible that in this 5 min window between you telling the bank and the bank telling the stores a payment will come up. They are clarifying how it will be dealt with during this 5 mins. It doesn t take precedence over all the other clauses.

Yes the disclosures could be better.

As you see tho the more that they post on websites the more they risk people mis understanding and mis interpreting.

Sent from my GT-I9152 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I'm sorry..even after a pot of coffee I don't see how you are coming to that interpretation. ..the T&S seem pretty clear you are on the hook up to 5 minutes after you've you notified the bank. Totally agree the disclosures could be better and more easily available.

Sent from my Samsung S4 (GT-I9500)

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rolleyes.gif For your information.

I just unblocked my U.S. ATM/debit card issued by a small regional bank in New England.

Took me 3 telephone callls and about 30 minutes before I could get anyone to listen to me.

Did finally get it resolved but only after being required to have it "cleared by approval" from the "fraud" office of that bank.

Reason for blocking my card originally was, "Because you never specifically informed the bank that your card might be used outside the U.S., your card was therefore blocked due to possible fraud by a charge from a source outside the U.S.".

That's a legitimate issue/problem, especially as the banks become more cautious about card fraud.

In my experience, I've never had any problem with blocking for U.S. debit cards... and none of my debit card issuing banks have requests to notify of foreign travel when using those debit cards abroad. And I use those cards constantly without any problem.

But that IS a pretty common issue for credit cards, and most of the major credit card issuers DO have requests that you notify them prior to foreign travel/use. And I have had credit cards temporarily blocked, although those were always easily unblocked via a quick phone call to customer service.

Usually, if you're having a problem, it's often possible to have customer service or their fraud dept note in your record that you are a frequent traveler to XXXXX, so that their system won't flag your account so much or at all.

For credit cards, it really depends a lot on the card issuing bank. The big mega banks often don't seem to recognize that their cardholders DO use their cards and travel outside the U.S., and they seem to automatically treat any foreign activity as suspicious. On the other hand, there are others that seem to better understand that we live in an international world and Americans do go abroad.

I will note, I was looking a few months back at opening a new checking account with a credit union on the East Coast. And in asking about whether they charged a foreign currency fee, which it turned out they didn't, the CSR staff I spoke with said their system WOULD freeze my card temporarily if I had a foreign charge on it and had not prior notified them of being abroad. Given that advice going in, I passed on opening that account. Never heard that kind of statement before re a debit card.

Edited by TallGuyJohninBKK
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Your para on the 5 mins relates to how payments to stores etc are posted and how a vendor is notified that payments to that card are no longer accepted. I.e they will tell any vendor after 5 mins has elapsed the payment cant be processed. Before that they are processed as normal. As normal also includes what I wrote above just now.

From reading those Terms and Conditions extracts provided by TallGuy in his two earlier post I don't see how you are interpreting the 5 minute notification to mean what you say it means above....but it's still early in the morning and I haven't had my coffee to fully wake up yet. To me the Terms and Conditions are pretty clearly saying you are on the hook for any charges up until 5 minutes after you notify the bank...maybe I'm missing something as I didn't see anything about the 5 minute notification dealing with merchant notification/transaction feedback. And hopefully the bank's resolution process will release a person of any fraudulent charges made before the 5 minute notification assuming the card holder was indeed not at fault. I just wish the bank would publish on their web sites or some one would upload documents that provide more detail on the bank's resolution process and timeline.
Have a re-read of para 5 when you ve finished your coffee :)

In particular it is talking about the "use of the card DURING 5 MINUTES from the time the bank has been notified." I.e talking about a 5 min window. Not "any charges up until..."

The sentence before is talking about how it notifies the "group who accept credit card payment" (i.e "stores") or as we might say merchants or vendors a crad is no longer valid.

Basically they notify the stores the card is not valid but this takes a little time.

It is possible that in this 5 min window between you telling the bank and the bank telling the stores a payment will come up. They are clarifying how it will be dealt with during this 5 mins. It doesn t take precedence over all the other clauses.

Yes the disclosures could be better.

As you see tho the more that they post on websites the more they risk people mis understanding and mis interpreting.

Sent from my GT-I9152 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I'm sorry..even after a pot of coffee I don't see how you are coming to that interpretation. ..the T&S seem pretty clear you are on the hook up to 5 minutes after you've you notified the bank. Totally agree the disclosures could be better and more easily available.

Sent from my Samsung S4 (GT-I9500)

Could you help me see where it says "up to" or "up to 5 minutes" on no.5 the purple one SCB. I m reading it on phone (without coffee) but I can only see the reference to "during 5 minutes from".

I.e you notify and for the next 5 mins. But if you show me where it says "up to..." I ll have a last look.

Bear in mind the last one no.9 is Citi and not connected to points 4 and 5 from SCB. It will have other clauses elsewhere...

Sent from my GT-I9152 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

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rolleyes.gif For your information.

I just unblocked my U.S. ATM/debit card issued by a small regional bank in New England.

Took me 3 telephone callls and about 30 minutes before I could get anyone to listen to me.

Did finally get it resolved but only after being required to have it "cleared by approval" from the "fraud" office of that bank.

Reason for blocking my card originally was, "Because you never specifically informed the bank that your card might be used outside the U.S., your card was therefore blocked due to possible fraud by a charge from a source outside the U.S.".

That's a legitimate issue/problem, especially as the banks become more cautious about card fraud.

In my experience, I've never had any problem with blocking for U.S. debit cards... and none of my debit card issuing banks have requests to notify of foreign travel when using those debit cards abroad. And I use those cards constantly without any problem.

But that IS a pretty common issue for credit cards, and most of the major credit card issuers DO have requests that you notify them prior to foreign travel/use. And I have had credit cards temporarily blocked, although those were always easily unblocked via a quick phone call to customer service.

Usually, if you're having a problem, it's often possible to have customer service or their fraud dept note in your record that you are a frequent traveler to XXXXX, so that their system won't flag your account so much or at all.

For credit cards, it really depends a lot on the card issuing bank. The big mega banks often don't seem to recognize that their cardholders DO use their cards and travel outside the U.S., and they seem to automatically treat any foreign activity as suspicious. On the other hand, there are others that seem to better understand that we live in an international world and Americans do go abroad.

I will note, I was looking a few months back at opening a new checking account with a credit union on the East Coast. And in asking about whether they charged a foreign currency fee, which it turned out they didn't, the CSR staff I spoke with said their system WOULD freeze my card temporarily if I had a foreign charge on it and had not prior notified them of being abroad. Given that advice going in, I passed on opening that account. Never heard that kind of statement before re a debit card.

So far (knock on wood...my head), I've only had a debit or credit card blocked once in using it outside the U.S. And that one time occurred about 6-9 months ago with my Schwab debit card...I had already been using it several times per month in Thailand doing AEON ATM withdrawals. But one day, AEON rejected it and the display said contact you card-issuing bank. I contacted Schwab via telephone, told them it was indeed me making withdrawals in Thailand and I was here on a long term basis....they removed the block and the card worked fine after that...but I haven't used it for over a month now since AEON ATM now charge a Bt150 fee....even though Schwab would reimburse that fee I now have another way to get money free of of any fees by doing counter withdrawals.

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Could you help me see where it says "up to" or "up to 5 minutes" on no.5 the purple one SCB. I m reading it on phone (without coffee) but I can only see the reference to "during 5 minutes from".

I.e you notify and for the next 5 mins. But if you show me where it says "up to..." I ll have a last look.

Bear in mind the last one no.9 is Citi and not connected to points 4 and 5 from SCB. It will have other clauses elsewhere...

Sent from my GT-I9152 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I really talking about the the attachments in TallGuy's post #25 which contains the attachment/para #5 you are referring to and "also" another attachment (call that para #9)...and that paragraph #9 is reposted directly below:

post-55970-0-09416000-1395985282_thumb.j

Makes me think that in para 5 you are referencing where it states "....during use of the card up to 5 minutes...." is not properly worded and really meant up to say up to 5 minutes after. I'm also of that opinion based on previous posts/discussions (food fights) where I think it was also TallGuy which posted some Bangkok Bank card T&S documents which also stated a person is on the hooked up to 5 minutes after notifying the bank.

I just hope the bank resolution process for charges pre-notification favor/fairly treat the customer versus being bank-protection focused as Thai consumer protection laws/regulations seem to be on the weak side....yea, yea, I know about that BOT Financial Consumer Protection website and here's the weblink for others listening in but I really haven't seen any thumbs up feedback from ThaiVisa posters who may have used that BOT service.

Edited by Pib
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Could you help me see where it says "up to" or "up to 5 minutes" on no.5 the purple one SCB. I m reading it on phone (without coffee) but I can only see the reference to "during 5 minutes from".

I.e you notify and for the next 5 mins. But if you show me where it says "up to..." I ll have a last look.

Bear in mind the last one no.9 is Citi and not connected to points 4 and 5 from SCB. It will have other clauses elsewhere...

Sent from my GT-I9152 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I really talking about the the attachments in TallGuy's post #25 which contains the attachment/para #5 you are referring to and "also" another attachment (call that para #9)...and that paragraph #9 is reposted directly below:

attachicon.gif5 minute rule.JPG

Makes me think that in para 5 you are referencing where it states "....during use of the card up to 5 minutes...." is not properly worded and really meant up to say up to 5 minutes after. I'm also of that opinion based on previous posts/discussions (food fights) where I think it was also TallGuy which posted some Bangkok Bank card T&S documents which also stated a person is on the hooked up to 5 minutes after notifying the bank.

I just hope the bank resolution process for charges pre-notification favor/fairly treat the customer versus being bank-protection focused as Thai consumer protection laws/regulations seem to be on the weak side....yea, yea, I know about that BOT Financial Consumer Protection website and here's the weblink for others listening in but I really haven't seen any thumbs up feedback from ThaiVisa posters who may have used that BOT service.

Ah.. so finally you can see how interpretations differ. Again you say "makes me think..." . No offence but these are assumptions from people, yourself included who have no direct experience...Captain Haddock's closest experience seems to have been an Amex statement x years ago

Yes is is Tall Guy who repeats this ad infinitum. Unfortunately for him keep repeating something doesn't make it a fact. Unfortunately for others on here it just spreads more mis-information

This all started out as I made some postive comments about Thai banks. Unfortunately, Captain Haddock, John and others refuse to accept that, and any view other than their own.

Even when it comes from people with first hand experience... It really is a waste of time.

Cheers Fletch smile.png

Edited by theoldgit
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People can read the banks' policy statements re cardholder liability, as I've posted them, and come to their own conclusions.

Or, better yet as I've suggested above, anything thinking of taking out a Thai bank credit card certainly should ask that question of the bank before finalizing the application.

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Here's the most accurate and factual post ever on this subject on Thai Visa. From Dave O'C, who I know personally and he was working at Bangkok Bank when I was working at another bank.

http://limitfitness.com/forum/topic/310980-bangkok-bank/page-10

Daveroc - Posted 2011-11-25 10:03:42 - #58

Thanks to everyone who has put put forward their views and concerns around debit card usage in Thailand. There have been some good questions and issues raised as well as a little confusion, which we will take on board at Bangkok Bank and endeavor to provide better explanations through our communications and website.

While I cannot discuss the original posters case specifically because of customer confidentiality, I will take the opportunity to address some of the core issues and questions raised in this thread. (apologies for the length of the post in advance)

Fact. Your transaction will be covered if your card is lost/stolen, unless you are negligent, fraudulent, or found to be colluding to fraud.

Bangkok Bank, indeed all banks operating Visa cards worldwide, assess cases according to Visa's Cardholder Zero liability Policy. The policy protects cardholders worldwide from unathorised transactions, unless there is provable evidence of cardholder negligence fraud or collusion. The policy does not apply to ATM transactions which are PIN based.

In practical terms, this means debit card holders should treat their card as securely as cash- as 4evermaat correctly noted. At present there is no PIN based POS option for cards in Thailand, however systems such as this are continually being assessed by the Banks in Thailand.

If someone has been proven to have stolen your card, then in most cases you will not be liable for any transactions. (Assessed case by case)

While different countries have Code of Practices providing consumer protection at different levels, these are based on the conditions and maturity of financial and policing systems available in those countries.

Fact. There are ways to improve your protection as several people have noted.

-keeping lump sum cash in an account separate to your debit card spending account.

-adjusting POS maximum spending amounts to a level you are comfortable with (default is set to 50,000 baht per day.

-setting up free SMS alerts for any time 1,000 bt or more is spent via your Be1st Visa Debit Card (also applies to Credit cards)

-checking for any transaction irregularities via internet banking or passport updates

Obviously it is important to notify your bank as soon as possible if you realise your card is lost or stolen. Depending on circumstances, you could be liable for all transactions up to that point.

Fact. Signatures are still useful in cardholder protection, as long as the process is properly carried out by cashiers.

A good question was raised earlier about the relevance of signatures. The signature essentially operates as one of many layers of cardholder protection (obviously as long as cashiers take the time to check)

Its important to again note that the responsibilty is on the cardholder to ensure their card is kept safe.

If the cardholder's debit card is stolen/lost and there is evidence of neglience , fraud or collusion, then they will be liable to repay funds. Over the years in different countries I have faced claims such as family or friends being given cards and PIN numbers to undertake specific transactions because it was convenient for the cardholder. Unfortunately more than was expected was taken from the account and the cardholder deems it the Banks fault and makes a claim. We also have to deal with claims that have selective memory on the part of the claimant as to where the card was lost and under what circumstances etc. Unfortunately this does not assist the genuine person as we work through these.

Fortunately with the millions of card transactions undertaken daily only a very small percentage become issues.

Trust this clarifies some issues.

Dave

Edited by theoldgit
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That's the same poster, supposedly a bank staff member, that never did post for everyone to see and read the actual wording of BKK Bank's cardholder liability policy -- despite repeated promises to do so.

That post also came from this prior thread, which makes for very good reading on the subject. Note the complaint of the OP poster in that thread.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/513620-bangkok-bank-will-not-payback-fraudulent-pos-transactions-wstolen-atm-card/

BTW, the VISA "zero fraud liability" policy as it exists for U.S.-issued cards does not apply at all for Thailand-issued VISA cards, and VISA Intl has in the past confirmed that.

Edited by TallGuyJohninBKK
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That's the same poster, supposedly a bank staff member, that never did post for everyone to see and read the actual wording of BKK Bank's cardholder liability policy -- despite repeated promises to do so.

That post also came from this prior thread, which makes for very good reading on the subject. Note the complaint of the OP poster in that thread.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/513620-bangkok-bank-will-not-payback-fraudulent-pos-transactions-wstolen-atm-card/

BTW, the VISA "zero fraud liability" policy as it exists for U.S.-issued cards does not apply at all for Thailand-issued VISA cards, and VISA Intl has in the past confirmed that.

There you go again casting aspersions like "supposedly a bank staff member".

You really need to get away from this idea that if it isnt on TV it isnt true. Dave did work at BBL. For you to imply otherwise is utter rubbish.

Of course the zero liability on the visa US website doesnt apply to cards issued in Thailand.

...In the same way the zero liability on Australian websites doesnt apply to cards issued outside Australia and the zero liability on cards issued in the UK doesnt apply to cards issued outside the UK....

Or any country you care to mention. Get the picture?

Unfortunately you have misunderstood yet again.

If you want to understand about cards issued in Thailand dont you think it makes sense to look at and check with Visa Thailand?

There is indeed a zero liability policy for Thailand. That protects against fraud. Your continual claims of "no protection" and saying there is no zero liability policy is utter rubbish.

Google it... and get someone to translate it for you if you cant read Thai...

You ll see they have a zero liability policy to protect against fraud.

Fletch:)

Sent from my GT-I9152 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

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Here's Visa Thailand description of Zero Liability...sounds more like a dictionary definition...for details a person needs to contact the card-issuing bank.

http://visa.co.th/personal/security/zeroliability.shtml

attachicon.gifCapture.JPG

So now you guys finally acknowledge that it s utter rubbish to say there is "no protection" and zero liability policies dont apply....now you ve seen with your own eyes on a website does that make it true?

Now have you worked out that the English version is in English the German version is in German... so the best language to read the Thai version is....

So feel free to read the Thai version or ask John or Captain Haddock... to explain to you if you want the usual misunderstandings and mis interpretations and going round in circles...

And please think twice before keep posting utter rubbish such as "no protection" "zero liability doesnt apply in Thailand" and people that think they do are just "naive".

Cheers

Fletch :)

Sent from my GT-I9152 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited by fletchsmile
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So now you guys finally acknowledge that it s utter rubbish to say there is "no protection" and zero liability policies dont apply....now you ve seen with your own eyes on a website does that make it true?

That Visa Thailand Zero Liability was nothing but a dictionary definition...no details...it referred you to the card-issuing bank for specifics. Once again, it's back to finding any documentation a bank may provide on its website about details/specifics....like some of the links/cuts and pastes you and TallGuy have provided...and we already know how that conversion has went.

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That's interesting language on the VISA Thailand website. The last time I inquired about this was 2011, and VISA Intl SE Asia told me over the telephone they had no such policy for Thailand, and it was up to the card issuing Thai banks to determine their own liability policy. Of course, something could have changed since then.

But, if VISA really did have such a policy for VISA credit and debit cards issued in Thailand, then you'd kind of have to wonder why an outfit like Citibank Thailand would still have this kind of language in their credit card terms and conditions document effective January 2014.

post-58284-0-69981500-1396010628_thumb.j

Likewise, if the Thai bank issued VISA card really had such a no-liability policy, doesn't it seem a bit strange that, AFAIK, there's not a single mention of such a no liability for Thai VISA cards policy in the credit card sections of any of the Thai banks' websites.

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So now you guys finally acknowledge that it s utter rubbish to say there is "no protection" and zero liability policies dont apply....now you ve seen with your own eyes on a website does that make it true?

That Visa Thailand Zero Liability was nothing but a dictionary definition...no details...it referred you to the card-issuing bank for specifics. Once again, it's back to finding any documentation a bank may provide on its website about details/specifics....like some of the links/cuts and pastes you and TallGuy have provided...and we already know how that conversion has went.

Or you can actually start listening to people who know what they are talking about... laugh.png

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So now you guys finally acknowledge that it s utter rubbish to say there is "no protection" and zero liability policies dont apply....now you ve seen with your own eyes on a website does that make it true?

That Visa Thailand Zero Liability was nothing but a dictionary definition...no details...it referred you to the card-issuing bank for specifics. Once again, it's back to finding any documentation a bank may provide on its website about details/specifics....like some of the links/cuts and pastes you and TallGuy have provided...and we already know how that conversion has went.

Or you can actually start listening to people who know what they are talking about... laugh.png

And of course that is you.

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That's interesting language on the VISA Thailand website. The last time I inquired about this was 2011, and VISA Intl SE Asia told me over the telephone they had no such policy for Thailand, and it was up to the card issuing Thai banks to determine their own liability policy. Of course, something could have changed since then.

But, if VISA really did have such a policy for VISA credit and debit cards issued in Thailand, then you'd kind of have to wonder why an outfit like Citibank Thailand would still have this kind of language in their credit card terms and conditions document effective January 2014.

attachicon.gifPS0291.jpg

Likewise, if the Thai bank issued VISA card really had such a no-liability policy, doesn't it seem a bit strange that, AFAIK, there's not a single mention of such a no liability for Thai VISA cards policy in the credit card sections of any of the Thai banks' websites.

Agree...the devil is always in the fine-print documents versus the dictionary definition. But hopefully the bank's resolution process (whatever it may be) is fair.

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While we're at it, I figured I'd go back and find the current version of the Siam Commercial credit card terms and conditions document, similar to the older versions I'd posted above.

The credit card terms document is available in English on the SCB website, and although the broader document looks somewhat different from the version I read a couple of years ago, the pertinent part relating to cardholder liability for fraud appears to be pretty much the same.

The English portion of the terms PDF document is the lower/second half of the document, and the pertinent section is paragraph 4, and some more in pgh 5 following. There's also additional language in pgh 7 that appears to relate to ordering and not receiving products (but I'm not going to try to interpret what it says...:

http://www.scbcreditcard.com/term.aspx

4. The cardholder must keep the card and the personal identification Number code (PIN) with
particular care and must not lose the credit card. The Card and the PIN code may under no
circumstances be passed to others or made accessible in any other way by any actions that
cause others to possess the card or result in other people obtaining the pin code. In any
circumstances, if the cardholder does not follow the terms, and the card is used for fraudulent

proposes by others, using the card and/or the PIN code, or counterfeiting the card, or forging the
signature of the cardholder, or using any other methods to induce merchants to accept the credit
card instead of cash or allow them to withdraw money, the promisor agrees to bear sole
responsibility for the transactions conducted using the card and to compensate the bank or
others for any damages arising from the fraudulent use.

Does " made accessible in any other way by any actions that cause others to possess the card" include carrying the card in my wallet and my pants and having it pickpocketed while out and around town??? I wonder what the bank would say...

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Meanwhile, these discussions do serve a purpose, because they do help elicit new information. In checking further, I also now can find the Krungsri Credit cards liability policy that isn't as bad as some of the others, but neither is it a zero liability policy:

This comes from the terms and conditions document for the Krungsri VISA and MasterCards -- a bit better for purchases (up to 50,000 in coverage for the 48 hour period prior to a loss/theft notification), but no protection against fraudulent credit card cash advances:

1.11 If the Card is lost or stolen, or is used by other person (whether through the use of the Card or not), the Cardholder must immediately notify the Company to suspend the use of the Card and cancel the relevant PIN Number. The Company shall suspend the use of the Card within 5 minutes from the time of such notification where the Company will be responsible for any amount incurred during 48 hours prior to the time of such notification in the amount not exceeding Baht 50,000. The Company will transfer the actual amount to the Cardholder via the Cardholder’s Credit Card account within 45 days from the date the aforementioned notice has been sent to the Company. In the absence of such notification from the Cardholder and the Card is used by other person or dishonestly notify and/or the loss is occurred by the Cardholder’s negligence, the Cardholder shall be responsible for all incurred debts.

In the case of cash advance withdrawal, the Cardholder agrees to repay to the Company together with the cash advance fees until the time of such aforementioned notification and the Company has suspended the use of the Card. The Cardholder shall be liable for any debts occurred before such notification (including, but not limited to, the cash advance fees). However, after the Company later inspects and proves that any incurred debt (either prior to or post notification) is due to the act of the Cardholder or the Cardholder is related to the occurrence of such debt, the Cardholder agrees to be responsible for all of such debts. If the Cardholder request the Company to issue a Card replacement, the Cardholder shall be responsible for any expense and debt incurred from the use of the Card (for the amount responsible by the Cardholder). In addition, the Cardholder agrees to pay a card replacement fee for the issuance of a new card at the rate announced by the Company.

http://www.krungsricard.com/kccstatic/en/creditcard_goldandclassic.html

Edited by TallGuyJohninBKK
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