Suthep defends his riot control role in 2010

[whybother]

Can anyone help with the choreography of this?

Suthep has been indicted for murder and insurrection and yet he is in court for a case he has filed against DSI former director-general Tarit Pengdit and three other DSI senior officials for malfeasance and power abuse for daring to bring murder and attempted murder charges against him and Abhisit.

Surely he should be answering the charges brought by the DSI first?

Not necessarily. Why have the court case for the murder charges if you can prove that the charges couldn't or shouldn't have been brought against you in the first place?

Great idea. So any Thai citizen with a bit of money who has been accused of murder can stave off the murder charges by

1) not turning up to hear the charges in the first place (you can use the excuse that you're too busy protesting about a caretaker government - the courts fall for it every time)

and

2) counter suing the police in the hope that you can prove that the charges shouldn't have been brought against you in the first place.

Hang on, that only works for some people doesn't it. Sounds like a job for judicial reform.

You think your second part doesn't happen in the west?

[fasteddie]

Why is this fascist still running free and not in jail yet? And the army seems to protect him because they are at his side.

because he and the army unlike quite a few posters on Thai Visa want what is best for Thailand. Not only want it but have taken action towards that end.

What have you done besides criticize them for it?

Oh please! They want what is best for them and their paymasters and couldn't give a toss about Thailand. They want it all and do not wish to share with farmers and their ilk. If they cared about Thailand they would not keep dragging it back to the dark ages, they would support the democratic process and the rule of law, both of which they have refused to do.

Sent from my LG-P880 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[fasteddie]

We must remember these cowardly "men in black" were using unarmed protesters or just people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time as cover and unfortunately they were the ones who got killed, if the protesters had dispersed as ordered by the army there would have been less casualties.

Maybe the protest leaders should be on trial not Abhisit or Suthep.

Absolute codswallop! And the protest leaders have been banged up for years.

Sent from my LG-P880 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[whybother]

Why is this fascist still running free and not in jail yet? And the army seems to protect him because they are at his side.

because he and the army unlike quite a few posters on Thai Visa want what is best for Thailand. Not only want it but have taken action towards that end.

What have you done besides criticize them for it?

Oh please! They want what is best for them and their paymasters and couldn't give a toss about Thailand. They want it all and do not wish to share with farmers and their ilk. If they cared about Thailand they would not keep dragging it back to the dark ages, they would support the democratic process and the rule of law, both of which they have refused to do.

Sent from my LG-P880 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Umm ... then why are they paying the farmers?

If the farmers have got problems with being ripped off, they should look a bit closer to home ... at the rich business people and politicians in their own provinces.

[fab4]

Can anyone help with the choreography of this?

Suthep has been indicted for murder and insurrection and yet he is in court for a case he has filed against DSI former director-general Tarit Pengdit and three other DSI senior officials for malfeasance and power abuse for daring to bring murder and attempted murder charges against him and Abhisit.

Surely he should be answering the charges brought by the DSI first?

Not necessarily. Why have the court case for the murder charges if you can prove that the charges couldn't or shouldn't have been brought against you in the first place?

Great idea. So any Thai citizen with a bit of money who has been accused of murder can stave off the murder charges by

1) not turning up to hear the charges in the first place (you can use the excuse that you're too busy protesting about a caretaker government - the courts fall for it every time)

and

2) counter suing the police in the hope that you can prove that the charges shouldn't have been brought against you in the first place.

Hang on, that only works for some people doesn't it. Sounds like a job for judicial reform.

You think your second part doesn't happen in the west?

I'm talking about Thailand, did I mention the West? No.

[whybother]

You think your second part doesn't happen in the west?

I'm talking about Thailand, did I mention the West? No.

You didn't mention the west, but it's a pretty normal process everywhere. Why should Thailand be different?

[AleG]

We must remember these cowardly "men in black" were using unarmed protesters or just people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time as cover and unfortunately they were the ones who got killed, if the protesters had dispersed as ordered by the army there would have been less casualties.

Maybe the protest leaders should be on trial not Abhisit or Suthep.

Absolute codswallop! And the protest leaders have been banged up for years.

Sent from my LG-P880 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Really? Where exactly do you get your information?

[fab4]

You think your second part doesn't happen in the west?

I'm talking about Thailand, did I mention the West? No.

You didn't mention the west, but it's a pretty normal process everywhere. Why should Thailand be different?

Really, people suing the police for charging them with murder despite the fact that there is a warrant out for their arrest on murder charges is a pretty normal process everywhere? Then they're let out on bail?

If you say so.............................

[Docno]

You're missing the point... the suggestion was that the use of live ammunition was in response to the arson, which was clearly not the case... That happened at the end of the events of 2010.

Of course, I can play your game and highlight the number of civilian casualties versus military or highlight the use of army snipers (what's this about shotgun pellets below knees?) and bring up (again) the intentional killing of neutral parties such as journalists and nurses.

the intentional killing of neutral parties such as journalists and nurses.

You have proof that it was intentional.

Or are you just making that up to justify the red shirts actions.

I suspect you know the truth but are unwilling to admit it so you come up with stories like that to ease your conscience.

Sorry, I have better things to do than fantasize. For your edification:

Human Rights Watch report on the crackdown: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2011/05/03/descent-chaos Note: "Human Rights Watch had gathered evidence that 'several unarmed protesters, medical volunteers and bystanders were killed with single shots to the head, suggesting the use of snipers and high-powered scopes.'"

Six unarmed civilians (including a nurse) shot in a temple compound from an elevated position: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/06/six-killed-thai-soldiers-crackdown-protesters

And this is a good one: Thai gov't caught in a lie that it was only using rubber bullets on protesters at the start of the 2010 crackdown: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/bullets-killed-thai-red-shirt-protesters/story-e6frg6so-1225852976016

[fasteddie]

Why is this fascist still running free and not in jail yet? And the army seems to protect him because they are at his side.

because he and the army unlike quite a few posters on Thai Visa want what is best for Thailand. Not only want it but have taken action towards that end.

What have you done besides criticize them for it?

Oh please! They want what is best for them and their paymasters and couldn't give a toss about Thailand. They want it all and do not wish to share with farmers and their ilk. If they cared about Thailand they would not keep dragging it back to the dark ages, they would support the democratic process and the rule of law, both of which they have refused to do.

Sent from my LG-P880 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Umm ... then why are they paying the farmers?

If the farmers have got problems with being ripped off, they should look a bit closer to home ... at the rich business people and politicians in their own provinces.

Because it's great PR and they can. Strange there's money now, but not when Khun Yingluck was PM, could it be the elite bankers colluded to help bring down a legitimate, legal, democratically elected government? Surely not, I must be deluded, but then again I am just a red troll according to some.

[Thai at Heart]

Well I am sorry, but why on earth is a civilian politician leading the command of soldiers in this context?

What the hell does he know about crowd control or the lethality of shooting shotguns anywhere at anyone. Absolutely ludicrous situation .

He deserves the book thrown at him for issuing idiotic lethal orders.

Don't civilian leaders sign off on most orders like this one?

Sign off or give?

Very important distinction. The army proposed and he agreed, or he ordered directly. Massive difference.

[Thai at Heart]

Well I am sorry, but why on earth is a civilian politician leading the command of soldiers in this context?

What the hell does he know about crowd control or the lethality of shooting shotguns anywhere at anyone. Absolutely ludicrous situation .

He deserves the book thrown at him for issuing idiotic lethal orders.

Don't civilian leaders sign off on most orders like this one?

That's not what it says.

It says he gave the order. It doesn't say he signed off, or approved. The suggestion was that he was in control and that the army was subordinate.

Very important difference. The rules of engagement were clear. Did his order break them?

Was his order the ROE, and the army broke them?

Your wasting your time. Some people just won't be happy until Thaksin is whitewashed and dictator in Thailand. In other words they are going to die unhappy. Thailand now has a government bent on bringing honesty and justice back in to the country. They will never accomplish it as it is a part of every country but when they do turn it back to the electorate it will be a lot more honest.

Legal and justice are not the same. I am sure some of the means they used to drain the treasury were legal but had no justice included in them.

I have no side in this. I just don't like politicians ordering the army just to shoot people and getting away with it.

I don't think Suthep being found guilty or not is going to have any influence on Thaksin coming back. So back to the point at hand after your diversion. Did sutheps order break the SOE?

You are quite good at deflecting the point actually.

[whybother]

Umm ... then why are they paying the farmers?

If the farmers have got problems with being ripped off, they should look a bit closer to home ... at the rich business people and politicians in their own provinces.

Because it's great PR and they can. Strange there's money now, but not when Khun Yingluck was PM, could it be the elite bankers colluded to help bring down a legitimate, legal, democratically elected government? Surely not, I must be deluded, but then again I am just a red troll according to some.

They can and they ARE. Do you think Thaksin wanted to give money to the farmers? It certainly was great PR for him.

They have money now because they are in power. The care-taker government didn't have the authority to borrow more money. Why would the bankers lend money when there was no guarantee that it would be paid back?

The PTP didn't think of that before they called an election, even though they already owed a lot of money to farmers at that time.

[whybother]

Well I am sorry, but why on earth is a civilian politician leading the command of soldiers in this context?

What the hell does he know about crowd control or the lethality of shooting shotguns anywhere at anyone. Absolutely ludicrous situation .

He deserves the book thrown at him for issuing idiotic lethal orders.

Don't civilian leaders sign off on most orders like this one?

Sign off or give?

Very important distinction. The army proposed and he agreed, or he ordered directly. Massive difference.

It is a massive difference from an ethical point of view. But it's irrelevant from a legal point of view. The army would suggest a course of action, and the leader would say go ahead. If the order is signed by someone, it doesn't matter who came up with the idea.

[dutchkev]

There seems to be a lot of posters here with blinkers on,

I couldn't care less who runs the country yellow or red, but let's face facts , which anyone who has been here for a while, will realise, there r 2 sides that hate each other, and they will do anything to win and not lose face, everybody has a chosen side , the courts , the army etc etc all the way to the top, suthep will not have any problems with the courts , their on his side as is the army , the democrats will be put back into power

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Piichai]

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level when men in black emerged from among the rioters and started to fire at soldiers with assault rifles!!

Would it not have been more fitting for him to order the soldiers to shoot at the men in black instead!!!! What a crazy bizarre thing to say. This man is a lunatic, always has been. Besides, the way i remember it back then is i was deprived of attending my young sisters funeral. The airport was taken hostage by thousands of people in yellow shirts.

The yellow shirt airport protests were in 2008. The red shirt protests (what this topic is about) were in 2010.

The quote about my sisters funeral was not directly referring to a date it was something that directly effected me through Thailand's political turmoil in the past. No idea what years any of it was. Not particularly interested. I specifically posted to say the orders he gave where bizarre and crazy.

Pity you're unaware of U-Tapao and Phuket.

Getting in and out of the country wasn't so difficult.

[Piichai]

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level

Oh, that's OK then. What a fine upstanding gentleman.

.....so how did 90+ peacefull protesters - most of which were sheltering in a temple - were shot and killed by high powered sniper rifles?

Shotgun below the knee my azz. This wanna-be dictator directly ordered the slaughter of nearly 100 inocent men, women and children and should be tried at an international court of justice for crimes against humanity!

Your "facts" are way way off, dozens, including military, were killed long before the final day when there was shooting at the temple, and it is still not clear who did that shooting. As an exercise to start, find out how many people at the temple where shot and at what time.

Also note in your reasoning that everyone understood that targeting international reporters, nurses, medical aids, and innocent people taking refuge in a temple would be most obviously damning for the Abhisit government that Thaksin was trying so hard to overthrow. I honestly do not know who shot all those people as there is no hard evidence, but do I remember following the events minute by minute and even expected it based on my understanding of what was going on.

Just to further your post a bit; my recollection is that the rampaging Red mob ran out through Din Dang setting fires and looking for foreign journalists to attack. In fact, on the 21st (IIRC) at about 10AM, the Reds started fires in front of Zero Rangsit because they thought foreign journalists were staying at the Asia Airport Hotel. Remember it clearly as I picked up my brother at 9AM to bug out to Koh Chang.

[whybother]

There seems to be a lot of posters here with blinkers on,

I couldn't care less who runs the country yellow or red, but let's face facts , which anyone who has been here for a while, will realise, there r 2 sides that hate each other, and they will do anything to win and not lose face, everybody has a chosen side , the courts , the army etc etc all the way to the top, suthep will not have any problems with the courts , their on his side as is the army , the democrats will be put back into power

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Why do people keep on going on about "putting the democrats into power".

In 2006, the coup junta changed the constitution to stop ANY government from breaking the rules and rorting the system. They did a crap job of it, but that was their intention.

Can you (or anyone) name one thing that was put into the constitution that would stop Thaksin's party from getting elected?

[dutchkev]

Haven't got a clue what is in the constitution , I'm just saying this is like a merry go round , it's the same story going round and round, I don't care who has control of the pot , we r just guests here, none of us have any rights , I would love to see some proper political campaign's leading up to an election , where both sides put forward what they can do for the country, but that will never happen , corruption runs through this country at every level, and to think the army will stamp it out , with a few parties , writing songs , moving a few people around,

Is a joke

Suddenly everyone thinks the men in green r beyond corruption !!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[rubl]

"Suthep defends his riot control role"

It would seem at the same time TV posters use the opportunity to attack the Democrat party led coalition government, The military and about anyone or anything else with the exception of Pheu Thai, UDD, red-shirts and Thaksin of course.

Anyway, with all cases filed before the 22nd of May proceeding, I assume we also will get the chance to read about Abhisit's defense, and of course that of the UDD leaders.

[Thai at Heart]

Well I am sorry, but why on earth is a civilian politician leading the command of soldiers in this context?

What the hell does he know about crowd control or the lethality of shooting shotguns anywhere at anyone. Absolutely ludicrous situation .

He deserves the book thrown at him for issuing idiotic lethal orders.

Don't civilian leaders sign off on most orders like this one?

Sign off or give?

Very important distinction. The army proposed and he agreed, or he ordered directly. Massive difference.

It is a massive difference from an ethical point of view. But it's irrelevant from a legal point of view. The army would suggest a course of action, and the leader would say go ahead. If the order is signed by someone, it doesn't matter who came up with the idea.

I think it makes a massive difference because one would then of course ask to question the army commander to assess what info he had to request such a permission.

Of course, that doesn't happen because the army has already secured their get out jail card. It makes a massive difference how this order came about.

Did Suthep just think it up on the spur to show his power, or did he approve it after receiving info and a request from the army. Big big difference.

[Thai at Heart]

Well I am sorry, but why on earth is a civilian politician leading the command of soldiers in this context?

What the hell does he know about crowd control or the lethality of shooting shotguns anywhere at anyone. Absolutely ludicrous situation .

He deserves the book thrown at him for issuing idiotic lethal orders.

Don't civilian leaders sign off on most orders like this one?

Sign off or give?

Very important distinction. The army proposed and he agreed, or he ordered directly. Massive difference.

It is a massive difference from an ethical point of view. But it's irrelevant from a legal point of view. The army would suggest a course of action, and the leader would say go ahead. If the order is signed by someone, it doesn't matter who came up with the idea.

I think it makes a massive difference because one would then of course ask to question the army commander to assess what info he had to request such a permission.

Of course, that doesn't happen because the army has already secured their get out jail card. It makes a massive difference how this order came about.

Did Suthep just think it up on the spur to show his power, or did he approve it after receiving info and a request from the army. Big big difference.

[Docno]

Umm ... then why are they paying the farmers?

If the farmers have got problems with being ripped off, they should look a bit closer to home ... at the rich business people and politicians in their own provinces.

Because it's great PR and they can. Strange there's money now, but not when Khun Yingluck was PM, could it be the elite bankers colluded to help bring down a legitimate, legal, democratically elected government? Surely not, I must be deluded, but then again I am just a red troll according to some.

They can and they ARE. Do you think Thaksin wanted to give money to the farmers? It certainly was great PR for him.

They have money now because they are in power. The care-taker government didn't have the authority to borrow more money. Why would the bankers lend money when there was no guarantee that it would be paid back?

The PTP didn't think of that before they called an election, even though they already owed a lot of money to farmers at that time.

You're basically saying that the PTP should have anticipated that the election would be declared null and void when they called the election. Only two problems with this argument:

1. Why would PTP call an election in the anticipation that it would be invalidated and that they would have caretaker status?
2. If PTP could indeed anticipate that outcome, then the bankers would be able to as well... so why would they lend money to the government even prior to the declaration of caretaker status? (Of course, I'm ascribing the same powers of precognition to the bankers that you expect of the PTP).

[whybother]

You're basically saying that the PTP should have anticipated that the election would be declared null and void when they called the election. Only two problems with this argument:

1. Why would PTP call an election in the anticipation that it would be invalidated and that they would have caretaker status?
2. If PTP could indeed anticipate that outcome, then the bankers would be able to as well... so why would they lend money to the government even prior to the declaration of caretaker status? (Of course, I'm ascribing the same powers of precognition to the bankers that you expect of the PTP).

I am saying that they should have paid the farmers or set out plans so they could pay the farmers before they called an election. Given what happened in 2006, they should have anticipated the possibility of there being no result in the election. It wasn't only the election being invalidated. There weren't enough MPs elected to form government, so there was going to be a delay for by-elections anyway.

As soon as the government dissolves parliament and calls an election, they are in care-taker mode. In care-taker mode, they can not make any financial decisions that would put a burden on the next government, even if it is likely to be them. The bankers can't lend money to the government while they are in care-taker mode.

The bankers didn't need precognition. Prior to the election being called - a proper government - can lend money. After the election being called - a care-taker government - can not lend money.

Even with all that, the PTP government were late paying the farmers BEFORE they called an election.