Confirmed: Visa run crackdown effective from August 12, 2014: Thai Foreign Ministry

[Pattszero]

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Why does it bother you that some people followed the rules and won't be impacted? I'm not saying you have to take glee in their misfortune but it's pretty shortsighted to bet your retirement on a loophole in the Thai immigration law. Hell, it's shortsighted to base your retirement on any Thai law. The people who have gone through the process, done things the right way, and are being rewarded, should be somewhat happy that their faith in the rule of law paid off.

And why are you annoyed that you have to wait another 9 months to be eligible for a retirement visa? It's not like that law changed. Oh, or are you just annoyed that Plan A, take advantage of a loophole in Thai immigration law, isn't viable anymore so you have to do it the way you would likely have to do it in most other countries, and wait?

The fact of the matter is there are many people who are under the age of 50, who aren't married to a Thai national, don't have Thai children, don't have a Thai based business and who aren't studying.

Clearly they're not tourists because they're living here, and they're not working because they have sufficient funds. So where does this leave them visa-wise?

Is having to buy the supposed Elite card really a fair and viable option? Is exploiting the education visa loophole the right thing to do? Should they be encouraged to marry or start a business - genuine or not - just to stay in the country!?

Unfortunately the best option available is a tourist visa, so it's not surprising that these new visa restrictions come as bad news to those falling into the above category.

Or, perhaps, Thailand just doesn't want them. That's entirely within Thailand's right. Why do those people feel they have a right to plunk down wherever they damn well please?

It's funny because I had been working in Europe for several years and my job came to an end and I thought about going back home and didn't want to do that. I also considered living in the EU and I went through all of the different ways I could live in the EU under the terms I wanted to live there. I couldn't find a suitable solution so I decided rather than live in the EU illegally, I would look elsewhere and find somewhere that suited my situation.

I didn't rant about how unfair the EU is or the amount of tourist dollars they would lose from not letting me live there illegally. I just figured out a different solution.

I heard Singapore has endless back to back visas so maybe you should give that a try.

The fact is these people are doing nothing illegal, may well have Thai partners (not yet married but certainly reason enough to want to stay in the country) and are contributing to the country financially. Basically they're retired but are not yet 50 years of age. Very simple.

Personally I think there should be a proof of finances measure put in place, no different to the requirements for other visas. They certainly shouldn't be discriminated against just because they're not married, don't own a business, don't want / need to study, and are (fortunate enough to be) under 50.

Look - I'm in that category - I'm a wealthy boy and I can live anywhere.

So what?

The country has visa regulations - stop whining and get the appropriate visa, which is still supremely easy here.

[Gringogazzer]

The way I read it is if your using back to back "visa exemption" & "multiple entry tourist visas" without notable time between each new visa application or exemption stamp you'll become under scrutiny or refused entry.

I left for the UK last week & when I passed through immigration he did take some time to look at the previous stamps & dates as I've a book full. Seemed a bit odd at the time but maybe had wind of the changes afoot.

[Gillyflower]

Thanks Pattszero. Much appreciated.

I come in on a 2 months tourist visa, then poodle off somewhere to get another 2 months. Then I hightail it back home. Hope I don't come under these restrictions.

[brotherother]

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Why does it bother you that some people followed the rules and won't be impacted? I'm not saying you have to take glee in their misfortune but it's pretty shortsighted to bet your retirement on a loophole in the Thai immigration law. Hell, it's shortsighted to base your retirement on any Thai law. The people who have gone through the process, done things the right way, and are being rewarded, should be somewhat happy that their faith in the rule of law paid off.

And why are you annoyed that you have to wait another 9 months to be eligible for a retirement visa? It's not like that law changed. Oh, or are you just annoyed that Plan A, take advantage of a loophole in Thai immigration law, isn't viable anymore so you have to do it the way you would likely have to do it in most other countries, and wait?

The fact of the matter is there are many people who are under the age of 50, who aren't married to a Thai national, don't have Thai children, don't have a Thai based business and who aren't studying.

Clearly they're not tourists because they're living here, and they're not working because they have sufficient funds. So where does this leave them visa-wise?

Is having to buy the supposed Elite card really a fair and viable option? Is exploiting the education visa loophole the right thing to do? Should they be encouraged to marry or start a business - genuine or not - just to stay in the country!?

Unfortunately the best option available is a tourist visa, so it's not surprising that these new visa restrictions come as bad news to those falling into the above category.

Or, perhaps, Thailand just doesn't want them. That's entirely within Thailand's right. Why do those people feel they have a right to plunk down wherever they damn well please?

It's funny because I had been working in Europe for several years and my job came to an end and I thought about going back home and didn't want to do that. I also considered living in the EU and I went through all of the different ways I could live in the EU under the terms I wanted to live there. I couldn't find a suitable solution so I decided rather than live in the EU illegally, I would look elsewhere and find somewhere that suited my situation.

I didn't rant about how unfair the EU is or the amount of tourist dollars they would lose from not letting me live there illegally. I just figured out a different solution.

I heard Singapore has endless back to back visas so maybe you should give that a try.

The fact is these people are doing nothing illegal, may well have Thai partners (not yet married but certainly reason enough to want to stay in the country) and are contributing to the country financially. Basically they're retired but are not yet 50 years of age. Very simple.

Personally I think there should be a proof of finances measure put in place, no different to the requirements for other visas. They certainly shouldn't be discriminated against just because they're not married, don't own a business, don't want / need to study, and are (fortunate enough to be) under 50.

Look - I'm in that category - I'm a wealthy boy and I can live anywhere.

So what?

The country has visa regulations - stop whining and get the appropriate visa, which is still supremely easy here.

The "appropriate" visa is a tourist visa, which isn't at all appropriate, as neither of us are tourists, and that's my point entirely. There should IMO be another category of visa, or the age of retirement visas should be lowered (proof of funds enforced, etc).

[NanLaew]

I must be quite stupid, but would someone take the time to tell me what a "back to back" visa means. I would be most grateful.

There are people who have managed to live in Thailand for years on tourist visas. What they do is travel to Thai embassies or consulates elsewhere in Asia and apply for another tourist visa, normally a double entry if they can get it. Hence the phrase - back-to-back tourist visas - every time they run out, they travel to get a new one.

Under the previous lax regime that was the norm - I know people that have lived here for years only using back-to-back tourist visas.

The other category is back-to-back visa exemption - these poor bastids run for the border every two to four weeks to get stamped out of the country and back in again. They never have a visa as such, they are allowed to stay in Thailand under the visa exemption waiver. It's safe to say this category is going to find it very tough on August 12th. These are the people who are going to be barred from entry - almost certainly the real target of this new policy.

At last, after 4 pages someone who has the correct understanding of this new enforcement of an old regulation.

1) Back-to-back visa-exemption runners are soon to be toast. If you have never had a visa... bye bye.

2) Those using back-to-back TR visas can stand easy... for now. If you are out of the country for 2-3 months between visits, I would reckon you are OK.

3) For those married with kids who have happily used either visa exemptions or single of multi-entry visas because it fit your overseas work rotation, be on notice. Get the proper visa that fits your circumstances.

4) For those unmarried and under 50, there's the ED visa.

5) If those working illegally AND WE ALL KNOW THAT IF YOU ARE EXERTING ANY EFFORT, THEN IT IS WORK, I won't waste my breath.

[DrTuner]

Want to stay in Thailand for a long time without leaving, get a non-immigrant visa. If you can't get one, short time only.

I believe that was the original intent that is now enforced. No real surprises there.

[Estrada]

But no problem if you buy illegal visas then. Btw I have a legit visa.

Btw I have a legit visa.

But consider yourself an expert in the largely imaginary illegal visa buying market.

inside Thailand if you're over 50 and have an O visa it's possible to get a retirement visa without the 800k funds, I know people who have nowhere near the funds but get the visa through Chinese/Thai specialists ............

I'm legit

If you can't afford to keep B800,000 in the bank for 3 months then you can't afford to be here. You need a reserve fund for emergencies.

[digibum]

The fact is these people are doing nothing illegal, may well have Thai partners (not yet married but certainly reason enough to want to stay in the country) and are contributing to the country financially. Basically they're retired but are not yet 50 years of age. Very simple.

Personally I think there should be a proof of finances measure put in place, no different to the requirements for other visas. They certainly shouldn't be discriminated against just because they're not married, don't own a business, don't want / need to study, and are (fortunate enough to be) under 50.

You mean nothing illegal other than signing a government document saying that the purpose of their stay in Thailand is for tourism purposes even when their intent is to live in Thailand? Normally, we call that perjury.

I hate to break this to you but nobody cares what you think the laws should be. They are what they are. Live within the laws or there's a chance something like this could happen and your life may be completely upended with little or no recourse on your part. Pretty simple concept to understand once you grasp the fact that the Thai government could give a damn about a few expats.

If they actually cared what we think or how much we contribute to the Thai economy, there would be a clear path to permanent residency, the right to land ownership, etc, etc. The fact that none of these things exist should pretty much indicate to you how much the Thai government cares about your opinions.

[Pattszero]

@brotherother

You are a prime example of who Thailand wants rid of. You have visa options, but you can't be bothered.

Even with this current crackdown - Thailand still has remarkably fair and generous visa options.

If you can't be bothered finding your way around to obtaining one, you'll just need to leave.

[DrTuner]

If they actually cared what we think or how much we contribute to the Thai economy, there would be a clear path to permanent residency, the right to land ownership, etc, etc. The fact that none of these things exist should pretty much indicate to you how much the Thai government cares about your opinions.

The PR rules and naturalization rules are clear enough. The problem, if there are any, are the hurdles of speaking Thai and having a job. Makes perfect sense. You just need to pay your dues.

[ukrules]

This is about visa exempt entries but 75% of the posts are talking about visa's. It's not about visas at all. Totally separate issue.

This remains to be seen. Plan for the worst outcome but hope for the best.

[notmyself]

2) Those using back-to-back TR visas can stand easy... for now. If you are out of the country for 2-3 months between visits, I would reckon you are OK.

I would say so too.

The aim of the crackdown seems to be to rid the country of people staying here ALL of the time by using out-in visa exempt entries or just popping over to a local country for a visa and returning straight away.

[Gringogazzer]

This is about visa exempt entries but 75% of the posts are talking about visa's. It's not about visas at all. Totally separate issue.

This remains to be seen. Plan for the worst outcome but hope for the best.

The Op clearly states "back to back visa"

Visa exemption is not a visa.

It's in the wording...exemption...

Edited June 30, 2014 by Gringogazzer

[ukrules]

This is about visa exempt entries but 75% of the posts are talking about visa's. It's not about visas at all. Totally separate issue.

This remains to be seen. Plan for the worst outcome but hope for the best.

The Op clearly states "back to back visa"

Visa exemption is not a visa.

It's in the wording...exemption...

They also talk of identifying 'visa runner cases'.

Do you think people who've been living here for several years on back to back tourist visas will be allowed to continue doing so ?

If that's the case then why have they started scrutinising passengers who arrive with a tourist visa in their passport ? I'm sure things will become much clearer in about 6 weeks time.

[Estrada]

A Non-Immigrant O type visa is for either retirement or marriage and a number of other categories - that's what the "O" stands for - OTHER.

That kind of visa can only be ISSUED at a Thai consulate or Embassy, meaning outside Thailand.

A Non-Immigrant visa can only be EXTENDED by the Immigration Department inside Thailand, and the TYPE of Non-Immigrant O visa will be defined by the extension category for which you apply and are granted the extension. This is where it becomes a Marriage Visa, or say a Retirement Visa etc.

This kind of visa is completely different from the ones mentioned above, and which are the subject of the letter.

A Non-Immigrant Type O visa can be issued by Immigration in Bangkok if you enter on a tourist visa exempt entry, all other visas must be obtained outside the country. Thai immigration then immediately give you an extension of stay based on retirement which may be 3 months for the first time if they want to see that the funds stay in your bank, and then afterwards extend you stay for the full 1 year.

This letter is crystal clear and only concerns people entering the country on visa exempt stamps. In a previous crackdown they applied the rule that you were allowed 3 x 30 day entries in 6 months and then there must by a period of 90 days before you are allowed to enter using a visa exempt entry again. Which may be the rule now however I expect that they will bar entry to all those they consider are not genuine tourists unless they get a visa. This allows them hopefully to pre-screen all the unwanted criminals that abuse the system to stay here.

The previous Junta led government enforced the 3 x 30 rule and I was nearly sent back, although they had counted the days wrong. Fortunately my friend was head of Thai Immigration so. I was let through. Shortly after that the Government changed and it was back to normal. If you are over 50 and working abroad on a rotation, the best bet now is a retirement visa, you can convert your tourist visa exempt entry to a retirement visa in a couple of steps and then obtain a 1 year multiple entry. You have to have deposited B800,000 in a Thai bank (not joint account) for 3 months for the first time prior to applying for the visa. For renewal the process takes a few hours only. You need a letter from you bank's branch downstairs at Chaengwattana confirming the amount and duration of the deposit in your account and then they will process the visa. It is much better than applying for a marriage visa which takes mountains of paperwork and there is no hassle if you get divorced since your visa does not rely on your wife. If you are not married to your Thai girlfriend, Thai's take a dim view of that and will give you hassle until you get the marriage papers, so once again a retirement visa is the best option if you qualify.

[ironbark]

I live in Laos where it is quite legal to get unlimited back to back 30 day tourists visa, I cross the bridge into Thailand at Nong Khai once a month on a visa exemption. Often I will stay one or two days, rarely more, to do some shopping or visit friends. On my last visa run the Thai side gave me funny looks and for the first time I had to explain I actually lived in Laos and would only be doing some shopping.

The Laos expats are more nervous about what the new back to back visa exemption rule is going to mean for them when it is strictly enforced on the 12 Aug..

[connda]

So, no more double-entry tourist visas?

No, you can still apply for a double or triple entry tourist visa, but once it's used up,

you probably wouldn't be issued another one soon after.

That's not what the OP says - it says to be restrictive in back to back visas.

It couldn't be any clearer.

TAT's newest campaign to promote and achieve those super-high tourist numbers by the end of 2015 as indicated yesterday in "TAT says it will reach its huge tourism goal by next year" Seems like the new global government double-speak a negative means a positive.

Edited June 30, 2014 by connda

[Gringogazzer]

This is about visa exempt entries but 75% of the posts are talking about visa's. It's not about visas at all. Totally separate issue.

This remains to be seen. Plan for the worst outcome but hope for the best.

The Op clearly states "back to back visa"

Visa exemption is not a visa.

It's in the wording...exemption...

They also talk of identifying 'visa runner cases'.

Do you think people who've been living here for several years on back to back tourist visas will be allowed to continue doing so ?

If that's the case then why have they started scrutinising passengers who arrive with a tourist visa in their passport ? I'm sure things will become much clearer in about 6 weeks time.

As I posted earlier in the thread I "think" people will need notable time between visa applications (how long, who knows) & back to back exemption stamps will be near impossible.

Like you say, all will become clearer with time.

[Sena Dave]

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For example - Joe arrives in Thailand on a tourist visa for 30 days, visits immigration and extends for another 60 days since he is visiting his spouse and children. At the end of this period, Joe must leave Thailand by air to a neighbouring country - and then returning the next day, would then re-enter Thailand on another 30 day tourist visa. Thus - Joe begins the cycle again...

Why even have a stay limit if this is allowed? Just to screw 'Joe' around?

He'll be told to book the next flight out and not try again for x months. In fact once it happens often enough and airlines get sick of whinging 'Joes' asking for refunds they'll probably check their passports and tell them not to bother trying a re-entry.

Thats what worries me , the decision is going to be passed to a check in clerk , in my case probably an Air Asia one at Penang. The reliance on the decision of one of these people to allow me to see my kids for the weekend or not does not fill me with confidence about the result.

[DrTuner]

The airlines check the rules from a database that can be queried by anyone. I remember the Emirates website had a search for it.

I think it's this one: http://www.emirates.com/english/plan_book/essential_information/visa_passport_information/find_visa_requirements/find_visa_requirements.aspx

Edited June 30, 2014 by DrTuner

[HerbalEd]

It's obvious by all the comment questions here, that this article poses many more questions than it answers.

The phrase "visa run" is used several times but that word means various things to various people. What, according to the Foreign Ministry is a "visa run"?

[notmyself]

The phrase "visa run" is used several times but that word means various things to various people. What, according to the Foreign Ministry is a "visa run"?

Presumably is means leaving the country for the sole purpose of obtaining a visa exempt entry or tourist visa.

[tpazzi]

Thanks George, for putting in the effort to acquire and post this.

[MaiChai]

I don't think anyone on this thread really honestly knows fully what they are talking about. If they DO know - It would be great if you could actually point us plebs to a specific thread (NOT the vague brown-nosing letter issued by the government at the start of this thread) that clearly explains the rules for this new Crapdown.

I for one travel regularly all around the world and support my family here in Thailand. It may be that my error has been in not applying for a Non Immigrant O Visa, but the immigration dept has been very good at supplying me with a spousal visa whenever I have needed it here in Thailand. What REALLY makes me laugh is that the TAT is expecting to make Trillions next year from tourism. Given the current climate politically and now this obfuscating new crackdown, I fail to understand how they are aiming to attract tourists at all. I have just got back from a week in Hua Hin, and I have never in 13 years seen it as dead as it was this last week. It was practically a ghost town. Residents and shop/bar/restaurant owners have been saying it's a crisis situation.

BUT - HALLELUJAH!! TAT have a great plan that is going to bring the tourists running back in to the country in a torrential FLOOD - the money will be pouring into the coffers and the hotels will be bursting at the seams. Why? Because they are so confident - they have placed their confidence in a burgeoning economy, a peaceful and secure political and social structure, of clean streets and dependable police force, fairness and justice for all - understanding for people married to their own for years with dependants, and families that pay taxes. I can see why they are so confident, and so, therefore, am I. Viva La Thailande!!

You are not a tourist. Get yourself a non immigrant multiple 'O' visa and then you are in the right category. Then you can stay 90 days and either leave and return or get into the staying long term showing money way.

Genuine tourists will still be catered for as normal and they probably spend more than visa runners. Note supporting Thai family does not feed money into hotels and those that make a living from tourism.

[Gringogazzer]

I live in Laos where it is quite legal to get unlimited back to back 30 day tourists visa, I cross the bridge into Thailand at Nong Khai once a month on a visa exemption. Often I will stay one or two days, rarely more, to do some shopping or visit friends. On my last visa run the Thai side gave me funny looks and for the first time I had to explain I actually lived in Laos and would only be doing some shopping.

The Laos expats are more nervous about what the new back to back visa exemption rule is going to mean for them when it is strictly enforced on the 12 Aug..

Business visa...

Maybe they'll start to sort out residence marriage visa soon enough.

[slipperylobster]

Obviously, if you bought a vehicle and/or signed a lease/purchased a condo...then you should not be thinking about Tourist Visas anymore.

It would be great if Immigration would come out with an "Amnesty" agreement. In other words, a residency card for law abiding, foreigners who have no record of criminal activity and who have good income. Perhaps some references from some upstanding Thai business people as well.

Clearly...I can see a need for an indefinite "Residency Card". I had one for the Philippines for quite some time. No need for annual O Visas and extensions of stays. All other means (Tourist Visas/Visa exempts) are no longer an options...it appears. At best, I can see a lot of nervous people trying to dance the "two-step" while Immigration throws out a series of questions every time you return to Thailand. That would always be a negative.

A nice followup to these Crackdowns would be an announcement of such a residency card. Perhaps just an annual reporting in would also free up Immigration to better deal with overstayers/abusers of Visas ...especially those who are committing crimes or working illegally.

Hope to read something about this in the future....and am hoping for the best

Edited June 30, 2014 by slipperylobster

[Metapod]

Guess I am going to be a guinea pig for the new system as I fly in and out of Thailand August 5th to August 14th

[slipperylobster]

Guess I am going to be a guinea pig for the new system as I fly in and out of Thailand August 5th to August 14th

I had 3 back to back land border runs...then went ahead and got a double entry tourist visa. The consulate wrote in english on my visa that I must provide proof of income and residency the next time I get a visa. That was enough to tell me I no longer should be getting a tourist visa. I leave several months a year, and only had 3 tourist visas (not back to back) in two years. I did, however, have 3 back to back Visa exempt border runs, previously, to this double entry.

Well, I have a round trip ticket to Kuala Lumpur for mid-July, to see the sights, dine, shop and enjoy 2 days of tourism. I will then re-enter Thailand for sixty days of Tourist delight, on my second entry ( Chiang Mai). I will have in my possession, proof of income and a letter from the Condotel (one month lease). I have a ticket to Manila for Onward travel in sixty days as well.

Twenty one days before my second entry expires, I will apply for conversion of the tourist visa to a 90 day Non Immigrant O...in Bangkok. (I heard this is possible). Then I will do a one year extension.

Does anyone see a possible stumbling block? Or am I doing it right...???

Edited June 30, 2014 by slipperylobster

[virtualtraveller]

Far as I can tell this is not new news, it's a reminder of the announcement a month ago that visa runs hopping over land borders and re-entering with visa on arrival would be stopped and that the measure would extend to airport arrivals from August. I believe the period between visa on arrivals is 6 months or 90 days, so if you leave the country and return within that period expecting a visa on arrival you'll be denied.

[MrWorldwide]

Sorry if this appears multiple times, my connection keeps crashing

But I think the OP has misread the letter. It is addressed to ALL diplomatic consulates and other agencies IN THAILAND and not to Thai embassies WORLDWIDE as the OP says in his introduction.

As others have already pointed out it also only mentions the VISA EXEMPTION system. That is the 14 day stamp you get when you cross the border. It makes no mention of the 30 or 60 day tourist visa which you have to get from a Thai embassy outside the country.

So panic over, problem solved.

When was the last time you 'crossed the border' ? I'll admit I havent done a Cambo visa run for some years, but its my understanding that many of us have been eligible for a 30-day stamp for quite some time and those are the 'arrivals' that I believe this crackdown is aimed at. An hour or two in a casino isnt the same as spending several nights in another country then coming back - even the Malaysians arent that easygoing from my conversations with Bule living in Malaysia and making the 90-day shopping trip to Bangkok or Sillypore.

As for 'problem solved', I dont know that we can make that call until after August 12.