French burqa ban upheld by European courts

[7by7]

Hasidic Jews wear what they wear due to their faith.

You, Transam, want to deny that right to Muslim women.

Do you also want to deny that right to Hasidic Jews?

Any possibility of a proper answer, or will you just make another silly comment about tents?

Here you go again, saying "I" have something against Jews. You have a serious problem about reading stuff.

Do you not understand that security in NON Muslim countries want to see faces on camera because of terrorism from a Muslim faction,. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT....?

Where have I ever said that you have something against Jews?

I asked you a simple question, using a particular religious group known for the way they dress as an example; a question that you refuse to answer.

Edited July 15, 2014 by 7by7

[transam]

Hasidic Jews wear what they wear due to their faith.

You, Transam, want to deny that right to Muslim women.

Do you also want to deny that right to Hasidic Jews?

Any possibility of a proper answer, or will you just make another silly comment about tents?

Here you go again, saying "I" have something against Jews. You have a serious problem about reading stuff.

Do you not understand that security in NON Muslim countries want to see faces on camera because of terrorism from a Muslim faction,. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT....?

7x7, read this agar............Your fugged up chum........

[7by7]

So the Hasidic Jews I pictured above are not able to dress like that in Belgium?

You want the freedom not to express any religious faith; yet would deny the freedom of others to do so if they wish?

As for the Hasidic jews (who by the way have their own schools, teachers paid by the Belgian government): I will not comment, since I do not want to be banned.

Your second sentence: Yes, I think that religion should be a personal matter, between a person and the god(s) of his choice.

I do not see how I limit somebody's freedom by that.

So you are in agreement with me that people should be able to express their faith by wearing what they wish; with the proviso, of course, that it is lawful?

Foreigners in my country should do what I do in Thailand.

Some parts of the Thai culture I like, others parts I dislike.

In my house in Thailand I do what I want, but surely I do not walk around upsetting Thais by behaving as a European in Europe.

Most of the people effected by the bans in France and Belgium are not foreigners; they are French and Belgian citizens.

As citizens of democratic countries which uphold the principles of freedom, surely they should be allowed to dress as they wish; again provided it is lawful?

[7by7]

Hasidic Jews wear what they wear due to their faith.

You, Transam, want to deny that right to Muslim women.

Do you also want to deny that right to Hasidic Jews?

Any possibility of a proper answer, or will you just make another silly comment about tents?

Here you go again, saying "I" have something against Jews. You have a serious problem about reading stuff.

Do you not understand that security in NON Muslim countries want to see faces on camera because of terrorism from a Muslim faction,. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT....?

7x7, read this agar............Your fugged up chum........

???????

If you, or anyone, seriously thinks that stopping Muslim women from wearing burqas as they peacefully go about their daily lives is going to have the slightest effect in stopping terrorism, you are mistaken.

I am reminded of Thatcher's attempt to deny Irish terrorists the 'oxygen of publicity.' Look how well that worked!

Going to answer my questions now?

Edited July 15, 2014 by 7by7

[nidieunimaitre]

So the Hasidic Jews I pictured above are not able to dress like that in Belgium?

You want the freedom not to express any religious faith; yet would deny the freedom of others to do so if they wish?

As for the Hasidic jews (who by the way have their own schools, teachers paid by the Belgian government): I will not comment, since I do not want to be banned.

Your second sentence: Yes, I think that religion should be a personal matter, between a person and the god(s) of his choice.

I do not see how I limit somebody's freedom by that.

So you are in agreement with me that people should be able to express their faith by wearing what they wish; with the proviso, of course, that it is lawful?

How did you come to that conclusion?

I repeat: I do not want to be banned because of commenting what I think on the subject of fundamentalist jews.

Foreigners in my country should do what I do in Thailand.

Some parts of the Thai culture I like, others parts I dislike.

In my house in Thailand I do what I want, but surely I do not walk around upsetting Thais by behaving as a European in Europe.

Most of the people effected by the bans in France and Belgium are not foreigners; they are French and Belgian citizens.

As citizens of democratic countries which uphold the principles of freedom, surely they should be allowed to dress as they wish; again provided it is lawful?

All Belgian citizens should respect Belgian culture.

By the way, citizens with dual citizenship could be considered foreigners.

And after many years of a stable population of 10 mln, Belgium suddenly jumped to 11 mln.

Do you apply the same rules to the behaviour of foreigners in Thailand?

[jacky54]

As citizens of democratic countries which uphold the principles of freedom, surely they should be allowed to dress as they wish; again provided it is lawful?

As long as thy are not going about with their faces covered up yes. As citizens of democratic countries they should have no problem obeying the law. There are limits to personal freedoms even in the west.

[7by7]

(Previous quotes removed to comply with forum software.)

Nidieunimaitre, I came to the conclusion that you agreed with me about freedom of expression because you said

Yes, I think that religion should be a personal matter, between a person and the god(s) of his choice.
I do not see how I limit somebody's freedom by that.

I therefore concluded that you had no wish to limit anyone's personal freedom.

All Belgian citizens should respect Belgian culture. Which allows freedom of expression and freedom of religion, does it not?

By the way, citizens with dual citizenship could be considered foreigners. By whom? Which nationality should take precedence? My wife has dual thai/British citizenship; is she a foreigner in the UK; in Thailand or both?

And after many years of a stable population of 10 mln, Belgium suddenly jumped to 11 mln. Most of the immigrants living in Belgian come from other EEA countries and it can be reasonably assumed that very few of that group are burqa wearing Muslim women.

On 1 January 2010, the population of Belgium was 10,839,905......

1,057,666 inhabitants are of a different nationality (i.e. not Belgian). In 2010, Italians were the largest group of non-Belgian nationality, numbering 165,052, followed by French and Dutch nationals, who numbered 140,227 and 133,536 respectively. Moroccans were in fourth position, with 81,943, followed by Poles (43,085). In 2007, 146,409 people immigrated to Belgium and 91,052 Belgians emigrated to another country.
Source

"Do you apply the same rules to the behaviour of foreigners in Thailand?"

That they should have freedom of religion? Yes.

That they should have the freedom to go about their daily lives dressed as they wish; provided it is within the law? Yes.

I am, of course, fully aware of the tank top wearing, tattooed, male westerner with a beer gut and last nights bar fine on his arm which is a common sight in many tourist areas, and of how most Thais view them, though.

Would you ban them?

[7by7]

As citizens of democratic countries which uphold the principles of freedom, surely they should be allowed to dress as they wish; again provided it is lawful?

As long as thy are not going about with their faces covered up yes. As citizens of democratic countries they should have no problem obeying the law. There are limits to personal freedoms even in the west.

How do you feel about bikers with full face crash helmets? Should they be banned as they are going about with their faces covered up?

What about smog masks, ski masks, scarves etc.?

You may well say that these people remove their helmet, mask etc. when required to do so for a security or identity check.

So do Muslim women; I have yet to read of any burqa or niqab wearing Muslim woman refusing to uncover her face for such a check; on the contrary, in fact, they are happy to comply.

Yes, of course everyone should obey the law of the land where they live or are visiting.

But if a citizen considers a law to be bad or unfair they also have the right to challenge it in the courts and seek to have it changed by any lawful means.

[transam]

As citizens of democratic countries which uphold the principles of freedom, surely they should be allowed to dress as they wish; again provided it is lawful?

As long as thy are not going about with their faces covered up yes. As citizens of democratic countries they should have no problem obeying the law. There are limits to personal freedoms even in the west.

How do you feel about bikers with full face crash helmets? Should they be banned as they are going about with their faces covered up?

What about smog masks, ski masks, scarves etc.?

You may well say that these people remove their helmet, mask etc. when required to do so for a security or identity check.

So do Muslim women; I have yet to read of any burqa or niqab wearing Muslim woman refusing to uncover her face for such a check; on the contrary, in fact, they are happy to comply.

Yes, of course everyone should obey the law of the land where they live or are visiting.

But if a citizen considers a law to be bad or unfair they also have the right to challenge it in the courts and seek to have it changed by any lawful means.

I TOLD YOU my friend was chucked out of Tescos cos he would not take off his OPEN FACE M/Cycle hat, about 8 years ago. Do you not see the fear in farangland about the religious faction that kills folk for nothing, and farang crooks. WE MUST SEE A FACE to PROSECUTE the RECOGNISED.

But no, you would rather take a chance until one of your own was taken out...Sad bloke.

Nobody here gives a toss about what their religious stuff is IF that religion isn't butchering folk on mass. You always protect them, up to you, as they say, but DON'T do a Jehovah's Witness on me.

[nidieunimaitre]

(Previous quotes removed to comply with forum software.)

Nidieunimaitre, I came to the conclusion that you agreed with me about freedom of expression because you said

Yes, I think that religion should be a personal matter, between a person and the god(s) of his choice.

I do not see how I limit somebody's freedom by that.

I therefore concluded that you had no wish to limit anyone's personal freedom.

Indeed, people should be free to worship the god of their choice, in private.

All Belgian citizens should respect Belgian culture. Which allows freedom of expression and freedom of religion, does it not?

Religion is a private thing.

By the way, citizens with dual citizenship could be considered foreigners. By whom? Which nationality should take precedence? My wife has dual thai/British citizenship; is she a foreigner in the UK; in Thailand or both?

Make a choice as to your loyalties.

And after many years of a stable population of 10 mln, Belgium suddenly jumped to 11 mln. Most of the immigrants living in Belgian come from other EEA countries and it can be reasonably assumed that very few of that group are burqa wearing Muslim women.

We were talking about all public signs of all religions.

On 1 January 2010, the population of Belgium was 10,839,905......

1,057,666 inhabitants are of a different nationality (i.e. not Belgian). In 2010, Italians were the largest group of non-Belgian nationality, numbering 165,052, followed by French and Dutch nationals, who numbered 140,227 and 133,536 respectively. Moroccans were in fourth position, with 81,943, followed by Poles (43,085). In 2007, 146,409 people immigrated to Belgium and 91,052 Belgians emigrated to another country.

Source

"Do you apply the same rules to the behaviour of foreigners in Thailand?"

That they should have freedom of religion? Yes.

That they should have the freedom to go about their daily lives dressed as they wish; provided it is within the law? Yes.

I am, of course, fully aware of the tank top wearing, tattooed, male westerner with a beer gut and last nights bar fine on his arm which is a common sight in many tourist areas, and of how most Thais view them, though.

Would you ban them?

Up to the Thais to decide, not up to you or me.

In European culture, and most certainly in Belgium, we have freedom of religion, but religion is not accepted as an "in your face" thing. We escaped from the dark ages, and we do not want to return.

In some cities, it is even illegal for public servants to wear a head scarf, because they have to be seen as impartial.

[wigantojapan]

seems to be a lot of baiting and personal attacks, wonder why this topic is still going as well as being off topic so much. on first look in i thought this was a topic on the UK

[Scott]

Thanks for the moderating tips. I will take them under consideration.

[rijb]

Is that a teachable moment or a learning moment?

[Scott]

It could be both, or it could be neither.

.....I do think we are getting further off topic, however.

Perhaps, we should lift the veil of secrecy?

[wigantojapan]

its all undercover

[nidieunimaitre]

It could be both, or it could be neither.

.....I do think we are getting further off topic, however.

Perhaps, we should lift the veil of secrecy?

Is this a veiled threat? euh thread?

[wigantojapan]

all will be re veiled

[transam]

Some here must also remember, Christians trying to do their Christian stuff in some Muslim countries is not allowed. We in the west bend over backwards to accept folk from wherever within the realms of sensibility. We even allow their own places of worship to be built. We accept lots of stuff, but there is a "line" to be drawn for our own natives security. If folk don't like that then bugger off back to a place where you have noooooooooo problem.

[7by7]

<snip>

I TOLD YOU (7by7)my friend was chucked out of Tescos cos he would not take off his OPEN FACE M/Cycle hat, about 8 years ago.

Same thing would happen to a veiled woman who refused to uncover her face when asked to do so for security or identification purposes.

Do you not see the fear in farangland about the religious faction that kills folk for nothing

I see the hate, prejudice and ignorance from those on the far right who have chosen Muslims as their target. If there were no Muslims in the UK, they'd only choose another minority to attack (it was Jews in the 1930s, West Indians in the 1950s).

Other than that, I see no fear here in the UK of Islam per se or of ordinary Muslims peacefully going about their daily business. But then most British people are not full of hate, ignorance or prejudice.

and farang crooks. WE MUST SEE A FACE to PROSECUTE the RECOGNISED.

So, I ask you again; would you make all face coverings illegal?

But no, you would rather take a chance until one of your own was taken out...Sad bloke.

Nobody here gives a toss about what their religious stuff is IF that religion isn't butchering folk on mass. You always protect them, up to you, as they say, but DON'T do a Jehovah's Witness on me.

Islam is not butchering folk on mass. That you believe so only shows your hate, ignorance and prejudice.

Not all terrorists are Muslim; some are Christian, some of other religions or no religion at all. I know you don't want to believe that; but even a modicum of research will show you that it's true.

I am not protecting, or defending, terrorists and never have done (I challenge you to find one post where I have!) but to blame millions of innocent people for the abhorrent actions of a minority only shows hate, ignorance and prejudice.

What have the Jehovah's Witnesses got to do with it? Are you saying they're secretly plotting to overthrow Western civilisation as well?

[7by7]

Some here must also remember, Christians trying to do their Christian stuff in some Muslim countries is not allowed. We in the west bend over backwards to accept folk from wherever within the realms of sensibility. We even allow their own places of worship to be built. We accept lots of stuff, but there is a "line" to be drawn for our own natives security. If folk don't like that then bugger off back to a place where you have noooooooooo problem.

As far as I am aware, the only Muslim country which does not allow churches or public Christian worship, or any other religious worship in public, is Saudi Arabia. Hopefully one day their government will allow the freedom of religion, and other freedoms, we take for granted in the west.

Unfortunately I am not surprised that you feel this freedom is wrong.

Do you pine for the days when Protestants burned Catholics and vice versa?

Would you have kicked the Huguenots out of the UK when they fled here from religious persecution in France?

What are your feelings about 'allowing' Jews to build synagogues, Hindus and Sikhs to build their temples.

There's a Thai Buddhist temple about two miles away from where I live, another less than 20 miles away. Should they also have not been allowed?

But, you will doubtless say, these people aren't terrorists; but neither are the vast majority of Muslims.

Edited July 16, 2014 by 7by7

[7by7]

nidieunimaitre,

I have seen your response to me, but other than congratulating you on the neat way you wriggled out of a few of your earlier remarks, I have no further comment to make myself.

[Scott]

.....Meanwhile back on topic.....please.

[7by7]

Might as well close it, Scott.

I think both sides have said all they're going to say and are now simply repeating themselves.

[transam]

Might as well close it, Scott.

I think both sides have said all they're going to say and are now simply repeating themselves.

Oooooooooooooh no you don't, you weasel and twist stuff to protect killers or possible killers. You continually tell folk who post here that we are anti Muslim yet we are not, we are anti Muslim faction.

YOU have never in any of these discussions accepted a Muslim faction is killing innocent folk, you are in your own weee world of denial, which I find odd.

Lastly, you tell me WHY the religion you "vouch for" are murdering folk worldwide. Now don't fool around with my words cos folk are reading this and understand my question.

Just tell us your view.

[7by7]

Transam; twisting words is your speciality, not mine; as is ignoring the hard questions you don't want to answer.

Each time you have accused me of defending or vouching or whatever murderers and terrorists I have asked you to produce one post where I have ever done so.

You have yet to do so.

Put up, or shut up.

[transam]

Transam; twisting words is your speciality, not mine; as is ignoring the hard questions you don't want to answer.

Each time you have accused me of defending or vouching or whatever murderers and terrorists I have asked you to produce one post where I have ever done so.

You have yet to do so.

Put up, or shut up.

Just answer the question. Is a faction of the Muslim religion that you continually vouch for killing or planning to kill innocent folk around the world because of their beliefs. YES or NO.

Simple question that most of us know the answer, except........ you, you have trouble finding the answer. Go for it.

YES or NO......

[sustento]

So the Hasidic Jews I pictured above are not able to dress like that in Belgium?

You want the freedom not to express any religious faith; yet would deny the freedom of others to do so if they wish?

They look like me 40 odd years ago.............

No wonder all the Thai women thought you were a hansum man...

[nidieunimaitre]

nidieunimaitre,

I have seen your response to me, but other than congratulating you on the neat way you wriggled out of a few of your earlier remarks, I have no further comment to make myself.

I can live with that.

[simple1]

Transam; twisting words is your speciality, not mine; as is ignoring the hard questions you don't want to answer.

Each time you have accused me of defending or vouching or whatever murderers and terrorists I have asked you to produce one post where I have ever done so.

You have yet to do so.

Put up, or shut up.

Just answer the question. Is a faction of the Muslim religion that you continually vouch for killing or planning to kill innocent folk around the world because of their beliefs. YES or NO.

Simple question that most of us know the answer, except........ you, you have trouble finding the answer. Go for it.

YES or NO......

7x7's comments have clearly stated he recognises the existance of Islamic extremism. On a number of occasions he stated that he has no sympathy for, nor supports Islamic terrorism. For some to continually infer 7x7 does not recognise the reality and outcomes of Islamic extremism in this & other topics is personal argumentative nonsense.

Edited July 17, 2014 by simple1

[jacky54]

Good article by a Muslim who is launching a campaign to get the burka banned in the UK, he calls the wearing of it Arabisation, 90% of women even in Pakistan do not cover themselves up like this and it's banned it two Muslim countries.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2695181/Why-I-Muslim-launching-campaign-ban-burka-Britain.html