Visa crackdown: Is this the end of the road for unqualified ESL teachers in Thailand?

[simon43]

And its not like university-qualified teachers ever get found guilty of paedophilia now is it?

 

Hmm:

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/24/pedophile-teacher-drugged-abused-90-students-from-managua-to-london.html

 

William Vahey, an accredited teacher, considered to be one of the worst child-abusers....

 

He was American.......

 

A degree or not a degree has never been a test of pedophilia

[AnotherOneAmerican]

A degree or not a degree has never been a test of pedophilia

But it (educational degree) is quite a good indication of commitment, responsibility and professionalism.
Am I correct in assuming all of those that disagree with me have failed to reach QTS? Edited July 20, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[simon43]

But it (educational degree) is quite a good indication of commitment, responsibility and professionalism.

 

Well, it could also be a good indication of commitment by a pedophile to engineer themselves into a position where they can abuse their students with minimal suspicion of their activities.  That seems to be what Vahey did.

 

Anyway, this is going off-topic... My own view is that the days of the un-degreed teacher in Thailand is numbered, because of the availability of degree-qualified Filipino/a teachers who are also willing to work for salaries below even that of the lowest 'farang' TEFL teacher (15,000 baht seems to be the norm for a degree-qualified Filipino teacher here in Phuket).

 

Am I correct in assuming all of those that disagree with me have failed to reach QTS?

 

In my case, I have never tried to obtain QTS from the UK, (although it is feasible without having to return to the UK).  At my age (55), it would be almost impossible to find a teaching job in the UK.  In any case, teaching in a school in Buckinghamshire is hardly comparable to teaching in a school in Yangon. 

 

I can understand the requirement for QTS teachers who teach a class of English children in a Tier 1 international school in Asia.  But teaching English to English kids in England is not the same as teaching ESL to Thai or Burmese kids in Asia.

Edited July 20, 2014 by simon43

[isawasnake]

 

But it (educational degree) is quite a good indication of commitment, responsibility and professionalism.

 

Well, it could also be a good indication of commitment by a pedophile to engineer themselves into a position where they can abuse their students with minimal suspicion of their activities.  That seems to be what Vahey did.

 

Anyway, this is going off-topic... My own view is that the days of the un-degreed teacher in Thailand is numbered, because of the availability of degree-qualified Filipino/a teachers who are also willing to work for salaries below even that of the lowest 'farang' TEFL teacher (15,000 baht seems to be the norm for a degree-qualified Filipino teacher here in Phuket).

 

 

Am I correct in assuming all of those that disagree with me have failed to reach QTS?

 

In my case, I have never tried to obtain QTS from the UK, (although it is feasible without having to return to the UK).  At my age (55), it would be almost impossible to find a teaching job in the UK.  In any case, teaching in a school in Buckinghamshire is hardly comparable to teaching in a school in Yangon. 

 

I can understand the requirement for QTS teachers who teach a class of English children in a Tier 1 international school in Asia.  But teaching English to English kids in England is not the same as teaching ESL to Thai or Burmese kids in Asia.

 

It would not matter either way. People think too internally here. There aren't a group of hungry up and coming people in college chomping at the bits to get out there internationally and show their stuff like in China, Japan or Korea. Here, it is more like "daddy had a business, I'll just take that over", and the rest seem totally unmotivated to do anything special. All part of that wonderful Thai culture. I will say the talent is here of course, but the culture somehow lacks the drive. 

[kimamey]

 

I think the name 'Lucie' and I had to leave my husband behind for now, too, as the UK also recently changed some rules about visas....  suggest he is a she and her husband can't go to the UK with her because of the new  financial requirements for the UK visa.
 
Maybe I'm wrong but perhaps Lucie will confirm this if that hasn't happened already.

Foreign female spouse of Thai male has no requirement for any income (or savings) for a marriage extension.
And indeed can apply for Thai citizenship with no job and no income.

 

 

I don't think Lucie mentioned a marriage extension. The way I read it was she had to, or chose to go back to the UK presumably because they can't afford to live on his wage now she can't teach but he can't go with her as she would need a certain level of income (£18,000 a year I think) which without a job in the UK she wouldn't have. Once she's got a job that would probably be different.

 

It looks like there might be a lot of changes coming. Some good others not so good. It may need some changes to the way teaching is staffed.

Edited July 21, 2014 by kimamey

[duanebigsby]

 

A degree or not a degree has never been a test of pedophilia

But it (educational degree) is quite a good indication of commitment, responsibility and professionalism.
Am I correct in assuming all of those that disagree with me have failed to reach QTS?

 

If you require every English teacher to meet a B Ed requirement in Thailand, English here will plummet worse than it is now.

TEFL is a specialized, teaching English as a 2nd language to both adults and children qualification.

If a TEFL is good enough to teach ESL in the West , why is it insufficient here?

Thailand could require a simple police background check for your concerns. But seriously, not many of us teachers came here to drink and diddle little kids.

[wilcopops]

[quote name="brewsterbudgen" post="8124089" timestamp="1405774060"] [quote name="wilcopops" post="8123959" timestamp="1405771868"] [quote name="AnotherOneAmerican" post="8122733" timestamp="1405752847"] [quote name="wilcopops" post="8120332" timestamp="1405698340"]What do they mean by "unqualified"? - Are we talking about actual qualifications or visas and permits?[/quote]
Has not achieved QTS in his home country.
Degree in Education or Degree + state exam (PGCE, etc.)
 [/quote] 
 
you don't seem to understand what TEFL is.
 [/quote]
Indeed. Many who pontificate about teaching in Thailand have no concept about what TEFL is. You can teach TEFL anywhere in the world with a (decent) TEFL qualification. Thailand is no different, other than it pays rather less than most other countries, presumably because there are plenty of TEFLers wanting to teach there. If Language Schools don't get their visa/work permit act together that will start to change.
 [/quote]
 
I know exactly what a TEFlr is.
There was some TEFLr on the teechers (deliberate TEFLr spelling) forum boasting that he was making 1 million baht per year in Saudi, had he been a proper teacher with proper qualifiactions working for a large MNC his salary would be about 4 million baht per year.
 
Thats the difference, yes you can teach anywhere, Thailand is no different, Thailand like many countries knows the difference, hence the difference in pay packets.
 
Language schools dont need to do anything, plenty of Pinoy teachers more than happy to work for less than gap year students.
The future is AEC.

 

You would rather Thai kids are taught by Filipinos rather than native speakers?
Most Thai parents think differently. They want native speakers. That's why they pay to send their kids to the private schools and government schools that have native speaking language teachers, English, Chinese or otherwise!

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"I know exactly what a TEFlr is." - nothing you have posted indicates you have any idea of what "TEFL" is.....or the qualifications required

[casualbiker]

[quote name="wilcopops" post="8146042" timestamp="1406187812"][quote name="casualbiker" post="8124860" timestamp="1405788902"][quote name="rgs2001uk" post="8124452" timestamp="1405780481"][quote name="brewsterbudgen" post="8124089" timestamp="1405774060"] [quote name="wilcopops" post="8123959" timestamp="1405771868"] [quote name="AnotherOneAmerican" post="8122733" timestamp="1405752847"] [quote name="wilcopops" post="8120332" timestamp="1405698340"]What do they mean by "unqualified"? - Are we talking about actual qualifications or visas and permits?[/quote]
Has not achieved QTS in his home country.
Degree in Education or Degree + state exam (PGCE, etc.)
 [/quote] 
 
you don't seem to understand what TEFL is.
 [/quote]
Indeed. Many who pontificate about teaching in Thailand have no concept about what TEFL is. You can teach TEFL anywhere in the world with a (decent) TEFL qualification. Thailand is no different, other than it pays rather less than most other countries, presumably because there are plenty of TEFLers wanting to teach there. If Language Schools don't get their visa/work permit act together that will start to change.
 [/quote]
 
I know exactly what a TEFlr is.
There was some TEFLr on the teechers (deliberate TEFLr spelling) forum boasting that he was making 1 million baht per year in Saudi, had he been a proper teacher with proper qualifiactions working for a large MNC his salary would be about 4 million baht per year.
 
Thats the difference, yes you can teach anywhere, Thailand is no different, Thailand like many countries knows the difference, hence the difference in pay packets.
 
Language schools dont need to do anything, plenty of Pinoy teachers more than happy to work for less than gap year students.
The future is AEC.

 [/quote]

You would rather Thai kids are taught by Filipinos rather than native speakers?
Most Thai parents think differently. They want native speakers. That's why they pay to send their kids to the private schools and government schools that have native speaking language teachers, English, Chinese or otherwise!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app[/quote]
"I know exactly what a TEFlr is." - nothing you have posted indicates you have any idea of what "TEFL" is.....or the qualifications required[/quote]

I'm confused at who this answer is aimed at ?

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[simondan]

Casualbiker - its aimed at the guy who made the remark in the quotation marks, I'd say

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[isawasnake]

Thai parents may want native speakers, but the truth is the parents are totally clueless and focus on the wrong things. I have no doubt they have good intentions, but they seem to be satisfied after checking two or three boxes: Caucasian - check, native speaker - check, degree holder - check. That is about the correct order of things too unfortunately. Education is just a fun thing here. I think the way the paents see it is put my child somewhere safe and that he has fun, and actual learning is a bonus. They really could not care less about the actual quality of the teachers. 

[GoonDizzy]

Thai parents may want native speakers, but the truth is the parents are totally clueless and focus on the wrong things. I have no doubt they have good intentions, but they seem to be satisfied after checking two or three boxes: Caucasian - check, native speaker - check, degree holder - check. That is about the correct order of things too unfortunately. Education is just a fun thing here. I think the way the paents see it is put my child somewhere safe and that he has fun, and actual learning is a bonus. They really could not care less about the actual quality of the teachers. 

 

I know a few Thais, I have plenty of Thai pals. Most of them have kids. From the few conversations on the subject of Education, this is what I've got back.

 

They want their kids to 'think for themselves' a little more. Inductive learning, in other words. A bit like...oh, I dunno. The two nations with the best educational establishments on the planet. The ones all the hi-so types from many nations attend.

 

That's about it!

[farang000999]

It seems like most of the teachers in Thailand just need a salary to stay in Thailand and do not really have a passion for teaching. That is my observation from those I have met and read posts from online. Back in the West, teachers personalities seem so different from the farang teachers you see in Thailand.  And then of course there is the fact that so many teachers here will advise you to not send your children to their school.

[casualbiker]

It seems like most of the teachers in Thailand just need a salary to stay in Thailand and do not really have a passion for teaching. That is my observation from those I have met and read posts from online. Back in the West, teachers personalities seem so different from the farang teachers you see in Thailand.  And then of course there is the fact that so many teachers here will advise you to not send your children to their school.

Your last paragraph is more telling of the Thai education system than the teacher.
In fact it probably shows the teacher has integrity and knowledge of what a decent school should be like!
But you can continue to blame the teachers not the system of which the foreign teaching staff have no control! The schools do!

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[isawasnake]

I look at countries like individuals, and although this makes perfect sense, it is unfortunately not an optimistic view of Thailand. 

 

Think of countries just like you would anything else. If your son wants to be a golfer, you will know within a few months if he has any chance whatsoever. He will show a certain aptitude for it, the more he has, the better his chances. If he literally can't even make contact with the ball for the life of him, it is bad news. 

 

That is how I see Thailand. They have so many problems with their educations system, it is forever beyond repair. We can think of it very very optimistically, and say "they are a growing nation" and all that BS, but they are just the high school shrimp trying to become a pro basketball player. It is just never going to happen, no matter how they try. They have not shown an aptitude for it. Having said that though, it can get a lot better, right? They can learn to actually start making contact with the golf ball one day, and improve by leaps and bounds, but the educations system will never pass a certain threshold. 

[AGareth2]

As a father I asked myself whether I wanted my children to be taught by Teachers(with training i.e. B.Ed) or a fair skinned blue eyed Native English Speaker with a heavy accent and trained to be a bricklayer whose only purpose was to stay in Thailand and frequent the "Temples"

I went for the former(they happen to be Filipino)

Proviso: I have 3 kids and can only afford a medium range Tri-Lingual School

[casualbiker]

As a father I asked myself whether I wanted my children to be taught by Teachers(with training i.e. B.Ed) or a fair skinned blue eyed Native English Speaker with a heavy accent and trained to be a bricklayer whose only purpose was to stay in Thailand and frequent the "Temples"
I went for the former(they happen to be Filipino)
Proviso: I have 3 kids and can only afford a medium range Tri-Lingual School

So you didn't consider the other option : an English native speaker who has a TEFL and Degree in non Ed field and many years of experience, who also has a neutral accent and is married!

Not all Filipinos or in fact Thai teachers have a B.ED degree. In fact many had / have to take the Professional knowledge tests. Exactly the same as the TEFL teachers. Go figure!

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[AnotherOneAmerican]

It seems like most of the teachers in Thailand just need a salary to stay in Thailand and do not really have a passion for teaching. That is my observation from those I have met and read posts from online. Back in the West, teachers personalities seem so different from the farang teachers you see in Thailand.  And then of course there is the fact that so many teachers here will advise you to not send your children to their school.

My former wife was a teacher in a US high school.
Lots of parties and functions where I met her colleagues, 90% of the teachers hated kids and hated their jobs. Were just in it for the job security, wage and pension. Of course they never let on to the kids parents.

[casualbiker]

It seems like most of the teachers in Thailand just need a salary to stay in Thailand and do not really have a passion for teaching. That is my observation from those I have met and read posts from online. Back in the West, teachers personalities seem so different from the farang teachers you see in Thailand.  And then of course there is the fact that so many teachers here will advise you to not send your children to their school.

My former wife was a teacher in a US high school.
Lots of parties and functions where I met her colleagues, 90% of the teachers hated kids and hated their jobs. Were just in it for the job security, wage and pension. Of course they never let on to the kids parents.

And your the one advocating that these self same kid hating B'ed 'qualified ' teachers come and teach here..ok then!

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[AnotherOneAmerican]

It seems like most of the teachers in Thailand just need a salary to stay in Thailand and do not really have a passion for teaching. That is my observation from those I have met and read posts from online. Back in the West, teachers personalities seem so different from the farang teachers you see in Thailand.  And then of course there is the fact that so many teachers here will advise you to not send your children to their school.

My former wife was a teacher in a US high school.
Lots of parties and functions where I met her colleagues, 90% of the teachers hated kids and hated their jobs. Were just in it for the job security, wage and pension. Of course they never let on to the kids parents.

And your the one advocating that these self same kid hating B'ed 'qualified ' teachers come and teach here..ok then!

No, I'm stating it's all about the money, just like most other employment.
If you are going to employ someone, might as well employ someone qualified to do the job.

PS
I'm also in QTS, if I needed the money, I would go back to the states and earn it.

[casualbiker]

It seems like most of the teachers in Thailand just need a salary to stay in Thailand and do not really have a passion for teaching. That is my observation from those I have met and read posts from online. Back in the West, teachers personalities seem so different from the farang teachers you see in Thailand.  And then of course there is the fact that so many teachers here will advise you to not send your children to their school.

My former wife was a teacher in a US high school.
Lots of parties and functions where I met her colleagues, 90% of the teachers hated kids and hated their jobs. Were just in it for the job security, wage and pension. Of course they never let on to the kids parents.

And your the one advocating that these self same kid hating B'ed 'qualified ' teachers come and teach here..ok then!

No, I'm stating it's all about the money, just like most other employment.
If you are going to employ someone, might as well employ someone qualified to do the job.

PS
I'm also in QTS, if I needed the money, I would go back to the states and earn it.

Well that's the thing isn't it YOU presumably would not work for 38,000baht per month. Were as others with less paperwork but with experience of teaching TEFL in Thailand would and in fact do.

With this in mind. A few direct questions.
1)Would you work in a Government school teaching 40+ kids per lesson with no aircon? 20-22 contact hours. For 35k per month.
2) Would you teach in a normal private school. 24 contact periods. 20-25 students. Aircon room. Basic books? For 40k per month include accommodation in a one room apartment.



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[smotherb]

 

This is horseshit.
in the US and Canada you can teach non-English speakers ESL in community colleges, churches, language schools, and
many others with a TEFL. Why should it be different here? You do NOT need a BEd to teach ESL.

 

 

I do not know about Canada, but in the US; the school, the TEFL program, and the teacher have to be State certified. I do not see the same level of school, TEFL, or teacher certification here in Thailand--on the contrary, in Thailand, the school, teacher, and TEFL program are often only dubiously certified, if certified at all.

 

[smotherb]

 

As a father I asked myself whether I wanted my children to be taught by Teachers(with training i.e. B.Ed) or a fair skinned blue eyed Native English Speaker with a heavy accent and trained to be a bricklayer whose only purpose was to stay in Thailand and frequent the "Temples"
I went for the former(they happen to be Filipino)
Proviso: I have 3 kids and can only afford a medium range Tri-Lingual School

So you didn't consider the other option : an English native speaker who has a TEFL and Degree in non Ed field and many years of experience, who also has a neutral accent and is married!

Not all Filipinos or in fact Thai teachers have a B.ED degree. In fact many had / have to take the Professional knowledge tests. Exactly the same as the TEFL teachers. Go figure!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

Agreed, Casualbiker, a degreed NES or Filipina, Indian, Malay, etc., with a TEFL may also be acceptable; but how many NES teachers meet those qualifications?

 

Although, this is certainly not empirical evidence and I have not taught English in Thailand, I do know many NES teachers who do not meet those qualifications. My thoughts are reinforced by the fact both my wife and son agree. My wife and my son have both taught English here. Both of them have US bachelor's degrees, HR Management and Environmental Science, respectively. Both had local TEFL certificates and both taught in Southern Thailand--Songkhla and Phattalung provinces. In five schools in the two provinces, they both agree many of the NES teachers encountered had no degree, no TEFL, and no previous experience--and those were the ones who admitted it. Interestingly, two of the "NES" teachers here are German.

 

So, a rigid standard for teacher certification is definitely lacking. Until such a standard can be implemented, we will continue this argument.

 

To be fair to the dubiously qualified NES teachers, let us not overlook the fact that any bar girl with a fair command of English may be able to teach basic English words and phrases to non-English speakers.

 

Nevertheless, I am not sure I would want my five year old to come home saying, "Hi hansum man, you want short time?"

 

[duanebigsby]

 

 

As a father I asked myself whether I wanted my children to be taught by Teachers(with training i.e. B.Ed) or a fair skinned blue eyed Native English Speaker with a heavy accent and trained to be a bricklayer whose only purpose was to stay in Thailand and frequent the "Temples"
I went for the former(they happen to be Filipino)
Proviso: I have 3 kids and can only afford a medium range Tri-Lingual School

So you didn't consider the other option : an English native speaker who has a TEFL and Degree in non Ed field and many years of experience, who also has a neutral accent and is married!

Not all Filipinos or in fact Thai teachers have a B.ED degree. In fact many had / have to take the Professional knowledge tests. Exactly the same as the TEFL teachers. Go figure!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

Agreed, Casualbiker, a degreed NES or Filipina, Indian, Malay, etc., with a TEFL may also be acceptable; but how many NES teachers meet those qualifications?

 

Although, this is certainly not empirical evidence and I have not taught English in Thailand, I do know many NES teachers who do not meet those qualifications. My thoughts are reinforced by the fact both my wife and son agree. My wife and my son have both taught English here. Both of them have US bachelor's degrees, HR Management and Environmental Science, respectively. Both had local TEFL certificates and both taught in Southern Thailand--Songkhla and Phattalung provinces. In five schools in the two provinces, they both agree many of the NES teachers encountered had no degree, no TEFL, and no previous experience--and those were the ones who admitted it. Interestingly, two of the "NES" teachers here are German.

 

So, a rigid standard for teacher certification is definitely lacking. Until such a standard can be implemented, we will continue this argument.

 

To be fair to the dubiously qualified NES teachers, let us not overlook the fact that any bar girl with a fair command of English may be able to teach basic English words and phrases to non-English speakers.

 

Nevertheless, I am not sure I would want my five year old to come home saying, "Hi hansum man, you want short time?"

 

 

There is a standard. A lot of schools are just looking the other way. I'm just suggesting a Bachelors in Education isn't necessary to teach English as a second language.

A recognized, proper TEFL should be enough.

[wilcopops]

 

 

This is horseshit.
in the US and Canada you can teach non-English speakers ESL in community colleges, churches, language schools, and
many others with a TEFL. Why should it be different here? You do NOT need a BEd to teach ESL.

 

 

I do not know about Canada, but in the US; the school, the TEFL program, and the teacher have to be State certified. I do not see the same level of school, TEFL, or teacher certification here in Thailand--on the contrary, in Thailand, the school, teacher, and TEFL program are often only dubiously certified, if certified at all.

 

 

 

 

How do you know? What is "dubious"? - from your perspective? How are you finding out about all the people?

[wilcopops]

 

Can someone PLEASE say what they mean by "unqualified"?

[brewsterbudgen]

 

 

Can someone PLEASE say what they mean by "unqualified"?

 

 

For TEFL, 'unqualified' is someone without a recognised TEFL qualification.

[Hawkman]

I have never understood on here why so many forum users have it in for TEFL-ers.  It just seems the old bitter guys who are jealous of the younger ones getting their totty, who have an issue with them.  Stinks of jealousy.

 

There's TEFL-ers all over the non-speaking English world, not just here.  Yes, there's bad ones; yes, many are using it as a ploy to stay here, but aren't we all?  Aren't we all looking at ways to stay here.  Rather people were here doing "some" good, than nothing at all.  

 

Amongst the TEFL-ers with ed degrees, non-ed degrees, no degrees, there are great teachers, making a huge impact, some not so good teachers but dedicated in their work that are making some impact and others that are a waste of space.

 

The worst group I have ever met was recently, all 25 somethings, all with Ed degrees, getting paid well, spending their nights partying and doing coke and hating their job; while my friend without the degree looked on in disgust, while he works his socks off and cares passionately, but can't get a WP.  However, to a TVF bitter fool, it is he that is the problem.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Hawkman

[duanebigsby]

 

 

This is horseshit.
in the US and Canada you can teach non-English speakers ESL in community colleges, churches, language schools, and
many others with a TEFL. Why should it be different here? You do NOT need a BEd to teach ESL.

 

 

I do not know about Canada, but in the US; the school, the TEFL program, and the teacher have to be State certified. I do not see the same level of school, TEFL, or teacher certification here in Thailand--on the contrary, in Thailand, the school, teacher, and TEFL program are often only dubiously certified, if certified at all.

 

 

OK, so there is a small difference in our countries. In Canada the school and the TEFL course are certified, the student passing that course can then teach in the school. I'm talking ESL, not the public school system. The teacher doesn't actually get certified like you said they do in the States. If all the language schools in Canada required BEd degrees, we would never fill the huge demand to teach immigrants English.

[moto77]

I teach and have taught for 3 decades.  I have the necessary degrees, certificates and experience.  I work with many teachers who don't have the required documentation and many of them are excellent teachers.  It will be a shame if these wonderful teachers are shown the door by the Thai government.  I understand the current crackdown but the reality is that Thailand will be hurt in both the long run and short run by excluding these folks.

 

Eh... give 'em a pat on the back and a tear, but supply and demand should bump your salary by quite a bit over the next few years. 

[moto77]

 

 

Can someone PLEASE say what they mean by "unqualified"?

 

 

In Thailand? Legally?

 

That means no bachelor's degree. If you do not have a bachelors degree PLUS TEFL certification, you are legally speaking, unqualified and cannot get a work visa. 

 

Actually for those comparing the US and Canada, this is true there as well. They might let a CITIZEN teach English in an unaccredited non-government program without a degree, but there is no way in $%## you would get a work visa in the US or Canada to teach ANYTHING without a master's degree--and even then it would be difficult. PhD's are a different story.