Future of the islands

[Tropicalevo]

Pity this thread turned into a visa discussion, I was more interested in hearing about the state of affairs on KT...

Of particular concern is that nobody has jumped on the OP for claiming 90% of workers on the island are illegal. Combine that with rumors of dubious land ownership and illegal construction; things aren't sounding too good.

I'm not picking a fight with the guys living there - just saying a clearer picture of the situation would be nice.

For example, of the 64 businesses, how many are legal, and of those how many are foreign owned.

Are there any illegal Thai businesses?

What WP is available to get legal and what are the onerous requirements stopping so many?

Apologies for all the questions but there may be an opportunity here to help others make more intelligent decisions.

Sorry ParadiseLost but the thread did not turn into a visa discussion. It was always intended to be a visa discussion and what impact enforcing existing laws might have on the islands.

The OP's opening line reads

"I am interested to know how the new visa rules are going to affect the islands. "

NB the visa rules are not new. They are just being enforced now.

I cannot speak for Koh Tao, I live on Samui.

I have lived on Samui since 2000 and I have been travelling to Thailand since 1993 (when I first lived and worked in Bangkok).

I have never had a problem obtaining a visa to visit the Kingdom, whether it be a business visa or a tourist visa. I have managed to get these visas in a number of different countries. You sometimes have to 'jump through a few hoops' but it was never a problem.

I have had a work permit since 2003 having started my business then.

The work permit was easy to obtain and it is just as easy to renew. What are the rules - dunno. I pay someone who has a real knowledge of the requirements to handle it all for me. That person organises my work permit, visa, company documents, land titles, taxes and any information that I have to provide to the various government bodies.

So - I do not really know why, for some people, getting a visa and/or getting a work permit is so difficult.

I can ony assume that it is down to either laziness, cannot be arsed to do some homework before I travel, lack of money or just tight fisted. Maybe because it was so easy to do things illegally, people just never bothered to get it right. I really do not understand it.

As an aside - article in the Samui Times states that Thai Embassys and Consulates overseas are still issuing tourist visas. It seems that it is just the border bounce people that are having problems. Visa on arrival at an airport - no problem unless you have a passport full of them.

Sorry that I cannot be more helpful.

Regarding the legal v illegal Dive Masters and other businesses on Koh Tao - some have manged to do it properly so it is doable.

When I last visited KT some years ago I was surprised to see foreigners serving in bars and restaurants. This is illegal. They are restricted jobs for foreigners. I rarely saw a Thai person. Lots of Burmese though. I suspect that Thais do not want to live there - especially for the salaries being offered.

[evadgib]

Setting up a limited partnership enabled divers etc to sub contract their services to whoever they chose, free of the 'we'll fire yer' nonsence associated with tied WP's. Having a WP in your pocket also enabled the holder to relax while the remainder legged it whenever the authorities were on the prowl. I have no idea if this is still an option but there are several companies as Trop says that can do it if it is.

[SiggiCM]

Pity this thread turned into a visa discussion, I was more interested in hearing about the state of affairs on KT...

Of particular concern is that nobody has jumped on the OP for claiming 90% of workers on the island are illegal. Combine that with rumors of dubious land ownership and illegal construction; things aren't sounding too good.

I'm not picking a fight with the guys living there - just saying a clearer picture of the situation would be nice.

For example, of the 64 businesses, how many are legal, and of those how many are foreign owned.

Are there any illegal Thai businesses?

What WP is available to get legal and what are the onerous requirements stopping so many?

Apologies for all the questions but there may be an opportunity here to help others make more intelligent decisions.

Sorry ParadiseLost but the thread did not turn into a visa discussion. It was always intended to be a visa discussion and what impact enforcing existing laws might have on the islands.

The OP's opening line reads

"I am interested to know how the new visa rules are going to affect the islands. "

NB the visa rules are not new. They are just being enforced now.

I cannot speak for Koh Tao, I live on Samui.

I have lived on Samui since 2000 and I have been travelling to Thailand since 1993 (when I first lived and worked in Bangkok).

I have never had a problem obtaining a visa to visit the Kingdom, whether it be a business visa or a tourist visa. I have managed to get these visas in a number of different countries. You sometimes have to 'jump through a few hoops' but it was never a problem.

I have had a work permit since 2003 having started my business then.

The work permit was easy to obtain and it is just as easy to renew. What are the rules - dunno. I pay someone who has a real knowledge of the requirements to handle it all for me. That person organises my work permit, visa, company documents, land titles, taxes and any information that I have to provide to the various government bodies.

So - I do not really know why, for some people, getting a visa and/or getting a work permit is so difficult.

I can ony assume that it is down to either laziness, cannot be arsed to do some homework before I travel, lack of money or just tight fisted. Maybe because it was so easy to do things illegally, people just never bothered to get it right. I really do not understand it.

As an aside - article in the Samui Times states that Thai Embassys and Consulates overseas are still issuing tourist visas. It seems that it is just the border bounce people that are having problems. Visa on arrival at an airport - no problem unless you have a passport full of them.

Sorry that I cannot be more helpful.

Regarding the legal v illegal Dive Masters and other businesses on Koh Tao - some have manged to do it properly so it is doable.

When I last visited KT some years ago I was surprised to see foreigners serving in bars and restaurants. This is illegal. They are restricted jobs for foreigners. I rarely saw a Thai person. Lots of Burmese though. I suspect that Thais do not want to live there - especially for the salaries being offered.

wow so you are the smart guy,

to know somebody to know how to get a work permit doesnt it makes legal,

so you pay 4 thai staff 9000 Baht salary every month + social insurance, their tax and your company tax?

it makes you running costs of minimum 60000 Baht every month for your work permit, so may be this is not the solution for

people who teach diving.

and may be you not have this cost then your work permit is produced by a fraud and illegal too

1. I hate if all the smart people here say respect the thai law, it is illegal to work, get your proper visa, and so on

2. most of this guys breaking the law also, building companys to buy land or houses, use thai shareholders without they have payed any shares,

use thais to run bussines, making false statement that their wife owned the money for buying a house and so on

It is not a problem for 99% of the foreigners to respect thai laws, BUT FISRT THAI PEOPLE HAVE TO RESPECT IT TOO!!!!!!!!

show the law is for all people the same in Thailand,

when Thais respect the thai law then foreigners for sure will respect also .....

and go out of the country and come back every 30 days are not against thai law, why they not chance their law? it would be easy ...

yes working illegal is against law, so what the companys can do?

99% of all limited company with foreign shares a breaking the law, because the thai shareholders never paid any money, they are only muppets and paid nominies, it is the only way for foreigner to open a bussiness, pay 100% and own 49%.

without foreign bussiness thailand would have 70% less tourists,

Dont blame the people who want to live here, what ever reason they have, you can blame only a racist law and goverment,

instead of holding together and try to improve the situation the foreigners are egoists and jealous, happy if some other gets a problem,

but never forget, you will be the next

[garyinhuahin]

For me, I look forward to Koh Tao's return to being a quiet place. On my last trips, the noise and crowding were unbearable.

Do you think they might clean out Phi Phi too? That's another place I'd love to return to but won't as long as it's overrun by the 'party-pack' crowd

[notmyself]

If the 'rules' are implemented well then I think it could be quite positive for the islands. There is one issue which could put a snapper in the works though and that is the no 'out-in' rule. A significant number of people winter for 6 month a year on the islands and half way through they need to activate the second entry of a double entry tourist visa by leaving LoS. For some time I have been flying down to Penang for a couple of days to activate a new entry on a triple but if even this causes problems then people will certainly go elsewhere. I know a good few 6 months people and some who would normally have booked their ticket by now are waiting to see how things pan out. I know an elderly Norwegian couple who have been coming to Samui for a 6 month holiday for 18 years and their extended family come and stay with them in drips and drabs over the period. They have not yet booked and are considering going to Cambodia instead. That would be a loss of over 20 people all told.

[Tchooptip]

And I suppose you adhere to every letter of the law whilst here ? They were not taking any sort of gamble at the time as it was legally allowed. They were doing this that were correct at the time so where you get the " knowing full well it wasn't the correct way to do things " I don't know. As well as being concerned about my friends, That is what friends do.

Take one friend. He works in the Middle East. On his leave period he comes to Samui where he has a house, car and bike. He doesn't need nor want to work and gets a TV every time yet now he is knackered.

I'd like to know if he has a house (not a condo) how can it be legal?

[melcoe]

Phi Phi island must be in for a real shake-up then. I am not affected as I have thai child and Non Imm type 0 visa (which I renew for multiple entry annual at a cost of $225 AUD)... but there are hundreds of businesses here relying on foreign staff. There are multiple dive shops and most employees do not have work permits... I think I only know of two actual thai dive masters... the rest (and we're talking hundreds) are foreigners, as are all of the instructors, and indeed many of the shop managers. There are some legit farang workers who have been lucky enough to score work permits, but most survive on back to back visa runs. The industry has worked around this for years by paying immigration officials under the table to turn a blind eye to their high number of farang employees, while their employees get regular breaks to go and do their back to back visa runs.

I'm presuming there'll be a lot of officials now missing out on their annual bonus. Well the annual bonus is gonna be a lot less I'm guessing, as there'll be a lot less illegal employees to protect... either that, or dive shop staff turnover is gonna be at an all time high. But as for the dive shops, if the rules and laws are enforced, for at least the bigger dive shops it will involve having to have like 40 thai staff on the books in order to get the ten legal instructors/dive masters they'll need that speak languages other than Thai to service their customers (in high season anyway).

Even if they can survive with 4 or 5 instructors/DMs that's still up to 20 thai staff needed. There's only so many boat captains, deck hands, tank boys, etc one dive shop can work. So how all this is gonna work must have some of the shops in a tail spin. Either that, or more money is gonna pass under tables in order for some businesses to keep operating. I'm guessing a huge increase in the supply and demand for business visas and work permits that are organised at a high price in an under the table fashion... you know, go see this legal team in Phuket or wherever, give them your passport and documents, pay 100,000 baht or whatever, and in two weeks time, you'll have the visa etc you need.

I do feel for the dive shops this will affect, as I know it's difficult to find or train thai people up to Instructor status as there is no point in doing so unless the Thai DM can speak perfect English and/or another language. Safety concerns arise if the instructors (and DMs to a certain point) are not proficient in the language of the dive shop customers they are guiding or teaching. But as stated on another comment it would be difficult to make a special ruling on this for the work permit situations as you would end up with DMs working in bars and everywhere else too. Perhaps from the point of view of instructors could work though... but whether thai authorities are considering changing work permit rules in any way doesn't look likely at this stage.

There are also many bars and tour operators on this island relying on illegal workers to be their flyer staff, promotions people etc. No one could get a work permit for this kind of job, so that's all gonna have to change too (a blessing in my eyes as this island is going to the dogs at a rapid rate).

Well I'm not solving any issues here, but just thought I'd throw in what was happening on Phi Phi as food for thought. I've got no idea how probably half the businesses on this island will survive without farang staff... but maybe that's a good thing. Too many bars and tour operators anyway. If only the same thing could happen to the guesthouse situation it would be a good result for phi phi.

Hopefully it will be the smaller, locally run operations, and the legit large businesses that will survive this, and maybe that will bring phi phi back to the way it once was. Sweet dreams most likely! But one can live in hope!

Cheers

[Birdman]

And I suppose you adhere to every letter of the law whilst here ? They were not taking any sort of gamble at the time as it was legally allowed. They were doing this that were correct at the time so where you get the " knowing full well it wasn't the correct way to do things " I don't know. As well as being concerned about my friends, That is what friends do.

Take one friend. He works in the Middle East. On his leave period he comes to Samui where he has a house, car and bike. He doesn't need nor want to work and gets a TV every time yet now he is knackered.

I'd like to know if he has a house (not a condo) how can it be legal?

Foreigners can own houses, but not the land below, except it is a house project which qualifies as condominium. The 40/60% rule.

Apart from that, if you have a wife and a house you have a house as well, because that's normal in a marriage. If it's not so, no marry.

[gamini]

Buying property on Samui and Tao are 2 different things. As far as I know you can't buy land on Tao but you can on Samui. I don't think there is any Chanote title land on Tao whereas there is loads on Samui

At present there are around 64 dive schools on Tao. Thinking that just having 2 operators will make things better is ridiculous. Having less companies but legal isn't the solution but I can't see the Thai Junta thinking things through in a sensible, business like fashion which is what is needed.

64 Dive Schools. No wonder there are no fish around. Best make Tao a snorkling only area. The fish would come back and so would the tourists.

[BestBitterPhuket]

Thais can do anything themselves. The old lady who sold fried chicken from a trolley will now be an open water dive master. It's really simple.

Edited July 18, 2014 by BestBitterPhuket

[adamtwilley]

I have asked around a little here today. Foreign and Thai businesses.

They all reference back to 2003 which was the last big immigration crackdown. Lots of people got detained in prison for false stamps and/or deported.

Some people clearly think you can just acquire a work visa, by simply paying and applying. We know this is not the case. They have special rules.

Diving is not the only profession which is staffed by foreigners, hospitals, schools, universities, charities, NGO's, and many more. The South African couple were here doing charity work clearly on a tourist visa.

As for the policeman he is old school Thai, who's family has been here a long time. So I am sure these houses will remain. They have been here over 15 years, the houses.

The biggest issue is how will the islands cope with the demand if it insists on such a high proportion of Thai to foreigners? The business owners pointed out most travelers only come for a max of about 30 days anyway, so would not be affected. How would the dive shops cope? Diving standards alone dictate a max of 10 students per instructor and 4 per extra qualified DM, not DMT. Then if people aren't diving the bike rentals, bars, restaurants, travel agencies, shops and hotel's in turn will become affected.

Ultimately we have no control over the situation and have adhere to the rules or find a new work around.

Sent from my HUAWEI G610-U20 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[adamtwilley]

For those of you who are saying the Thai will be an instructor, misunderstand. Becoming an instructor is not just about language but also money. The course costs about 40,000 minimum, materials 18,500, registration and exam fees 20,000. Then they still have to have completed all the other courses and paid all the exam, certification, and materials.

Its not just as simple as have the Thai do it. Thai bosses are very strict with money as it is, can you see them forking all this out to train them? Then who is going to sell the chicken?

Sent from my HUAWEI G610-U20 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[csabo]

I'll never forget an arrogant little 20 year old xxxxx dive master bragging about how his "office" was a boat in clear Caribbean waters as he mocked us fools working our asses off for a pension and benefits. I wondered how long his fantasy would last. It's heartwarming to know people like him (aka you) are getting a harsh dose of reality. I have ZERO sympathy for anyone working in Thailand illegally. You know who you are. Stop posting questions asking what you should do now. You were so smart before and now that the excrement has struck the air oscillating device, you want help from people who follow the rules of governments and society. You want an answer?? Go the xxxx F home! You are the cause of this entire problem. Own it, apologize and leave.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Rooo

[robsamui]

Pity this thread turned into a visa discussion, I was more interested in hearing about the state of affairs on KT...

Of particular concern is that nobody has jumped on the OP for claiming 90% of workers on the island are illegal. Combine that with rumors of dubious land ownership and illegal construction; things aren't sounding too good.

I'm not picking a fight with the guys living there - just saying a clearer picture of the situation would be nice.

For example, of the 64 businesses, how many are legal, and of those how many are foreign owned.

Are there any illegal Thai businesses?

What WP is available to get legal and what are the onerous requirements stopping so many?

Apologies for all the questions but there may be an opportunity here to help others make more intelligent decisions.

Sorry ParadiseLost but the thread did not turn into a visa discussion. It was always intended to be a visa discussion and what impact enforcing existing laws might have on the islands.

The OP's opening line reads

"I am interested to know how the new visa rules are going to affect the islands. "

NB the visa rules are not new. They are just being enforced now.

I cannot speak for Koh Tao, I live on Samui.

I have lived on Samui since 2000 and I have been travelling to Thailand since 1993 (when I first lived and worked in Bangkok).

I have never had a problem obtaining a visa to visit the Kingdom, whether it be a business visa or a tourist visa. I have managed to get these visas in a number of different countries. You sometimes have to 'jump through a few hoops' but it was never a problem.

I have had a work permit since 2003 having started my business then.

The work permit was easy to obtain and it is just as easy to renew. What are the rules - dunno. I pay someone who has a real knowledge of the requirements to handle it all for me. That person organises my work permit, visa, company documents, land titles, taxes and any information that I have to provide to the various government bodies.

So - I do not really know why, for some people, getting a visa and/or getting a work permit is so difficult.

I can ony assume that it is down to either laziness, cannot be arsed to do some homework before I travel, lack of money or just tight fisted. Maybe because it was so easy to do things illegally, people just never bothered to get it right. I really do not understand it.

As an aside - article in the Samui Times states that Thai Embassys and Consulates overseas are still issuing tourist visas. It seems that it is just the border bounce people that are having problems. Visa on arrival at an airport - no problem unless you have a passport full of them.

Sorry that I cannot be more helpful.

Regarding the legal v illegal Dive Masters and other businesses on Koh Tao - some have manged to do it properly so it is doable.

When I last visited KT some years ago I was surprised to see foreigners serving in bars and restaurants. This is illegal. They are restricted jobs for foreigners. I rarely saw a Thai person. Lots of Burmese though. I suspect that Thais do not want to live there - especially for the salaries being offered.

wow so you are the smart guy,

to know somebody to know how to get a work permit doesnt it makes legal,

so you pay 4 thai staff 9000 Baht salary every month + social insurance, their tax and your company tax?

it makes you running costs of minimum 60000 Baht every month for your work permit, so may be this is not the solution for

people who teach diving.

and may be you not have this cost then your work permit is produced by a fraud and illegal too

1. I hate if all the smart people here say respect the thai law, it is illegal to work, get your proper visa, and so on

2. most of this guys breaking the law also, building companys to buy land or houses, use thai shareholders without they have payed any shares,

use thais to run bussines, making false statement that their wife owned the money for buying a house and so on

It is not a problem for 99% of the foreigners to respect thai laws, BUT FISRT THAI PEOPLE HAVE TO RESPECT IT TOO!!!!!!!!

show the law is for all people the same in Thailand,

when Thais respect the thai law then foreigners for sure will respect also .....

and go out of the country and come back every 30 days are not against thai law, why they not chance their law? it would be easy ...

yes working illegal is against law, so what the companys can do?

99% of all limited company with foreign shares a breaking the law, because the thai shareholders never paid any money, they are only muppets and paid nominies, it is the only way for foreigner to open a bussiness, pay 100% and own 49%.

without foreign bussiness thailand would have 70% less tourists,

Dont blame the people who want to live here, what ever reason they have, you can blame only a racist law and goverment,

instead of holding together and try to improve the situation the foreigners are egoists and jealous, happy if some other gets a problem,

but never forget, you will be the next

What a pile of steaming hogswash.

Almost every comment is subjective, emotional, lacking understanding or just plain silly. Beginning with - wow so you are the smart guy, to know somebody to know how to get a work permit doesnt it makes legal, and then ending with a wild and OTT rant about racist laws and government.

The poster seems to have no knowledge at all about the legal, official and accepted above-board way of using a financial management service to handle visas, work permits and accounting, including the other thing he know nothing about - submitting tax returns and the payment of taxes.

If this is representative of attitude and perceptions of the people working here illegally with no documents (a guess seeing that he's so supportive of them) then it's no wonder the government is trying to get rid of them

R

Edited July 18, 2014 by robsamui

[mikecat]

Most work visas are hard to get and involve some conditions that are hard to meet.

There are some special cases where it is easier and the conditions are less hard to meet, such as teachers and journalists.

Maybe somone should suggest to the authorities that foreigners working in tourist business should be made a special case as this is a very important business for Thailand and they can clearly not fulfill all the positions needed for the tourist trade.

I hardly think getting a work permit and visa is easy these days even if you have the required degree. Why do you think there are so many illigal foreign teachers here. Prospective teachers have to deal with the Teachers Cuncil, Labour Office, inefficient school administration, get a non B and after three months get it extended all this involves a mountain of paperwork and then half the time they want another bit of paper or there is something else wrong. On top of all this the teachers Council dont seem to know what they want or what they are doing and change the rules every five minutes.

[robsamui]

Phi Phi island must be in for a real shake-up then. I am not affected as I have thai child and Non Imm type 0 visa (which I renew for multiple entry annual at a cost of $225 AUD)... but there are hundreds of businesses here relying on foreign staff. There are multiple dive shops and most employees do not have work permits... I think I only know of two actual thai dive masters... the rest (and we're talking hundreds) are foreigners, as are all of the instructors, and indeed many of the shop managers. There are some legit farang workers who have been lucky enough to score work permits, but most survive on back to back visa runs. The industry has worked around this for years by paying immigration officials under the table to turn a blind eye to their high number of farang employees, while their employees get regular breaks to go and do their back to back visa runs.

I'm presuming there'll be a lot of officials now missing out on their annual bonus. Well the annual bonus is gonna be a lot less I'm guessing, as there'll be a lot less illegal employees to protect... either that, or dive shop staff turnover is gonna be at an all time high. But as for the dive shops, if the rules and laws are enforced, for at least the bigger dive shops it will involve having to have like 40 thai staff on the books in order to get the ten legal instructors/dive masters they'll need that speak languages other than Thai to service their customers (in high season anyway).

Even if they can survive with 4 or 5 instructors/DMs that's still up to 20 thai staff needed. There's only so many boat captains, deck hands, tank boys, etc one dive shop can work. So how all this is gonna work must have some of the shops in a tail spin. Either that, or more money is gonna pass under tables in order for some businesses to keep operating. I'm guessing a huge increase in the supply and demand for business visas and work permits that are organised at a high price in an under the table fashion... you know, go see this legal team in Phuket or wherever, give them your passport and documents, pay 100,000 baht or whatever, and in two weeks time, you'll have the visa etc you need.

I do feel for the dive shops this will affect, as I know it's difficult to find or train thai people up to Instructor status as there is no point in doing so unless the Thai DM can speak perfect English and/or another language. Safety concerns arise if the instructors (and DMs to a certain point) are not proficient in the language of the dive shop customers they are guiding or teaching. But as stated on another comment it would be difficult to make a special ruling on this for the work permit situations as you would end up with DMs working in bars and everywhere else too. Perhaps from the point of view of instructors could work though... but whether thai authorities are considering changing work permit rules in any way doesn't look likely at this stage.

There are also many bars and tour operators on this island relying on illegal workers to be their flyer staff, promotions people etc. No one could get a work permit for this kind of job, so that's all gonna have to change too (a blessing in my eyes as this island is going to the dogs at a rapid rate).

Well I'm not solving any issues here, but just thought I'd throw in what was happening on Phi Phi as food for thought. I've got no idea how probably half the businesses on this island will survive without farang staff... but maybe that's a good thing. Too many bars and tour operators anyway. If only the same thing could happen to the guesthouse situation it would be a good result for phi phi.

Hopefully it will be the smaller, locally run operations, and the legit large businesses that will survive this, and maybe that will bring phi phi back to the way it once was. Sweet dreams most likely! But one can live in hope!

Cheers

People can argue until their bollo*cks drop off about what they think the rights and wrongs are. But these excuses cannot justify breaking the law. It's a simple as that. All these people are breaking the law.

If the dive industry (and others) cannot be sustained legally, then only the next year or so will tell if the demand is sufficient for some concerned government official(s) to get around to changing the regulations.

If on the other hand the loss of income due to illegal immigrant workers being kicked out of the dive industry is negligible, then it's simply down to supply and demand. Meaning that there is not enough demand in these parts to support a dive industry that can only operate with illegal workers.

People working illegally in Thailand have got complacent because for the last 10 years or so they've had no hassles, and thus now they feel that they somehow have the right to continue doing this. Fellas, you've had a long run with getting away with breaking the law and now it's over. Shrug, count your blessings, and look elsewhere. But you have no right at all to complain because you have been caught breaking the law. That makes you sound really stupid and arrogant, whatever your protests are.

I've read similar arguments/protests put forward by farmers in the southern American states who hire illegal wetback labour from Mexico, smuggled across the border. The American Immigration and Customs Enforcement will simply reply - "what you are doing is illegal. If you can't make a living working legally then you are in the wrong business".

Seems absolutely fair and correct to me.

Or has the US government also got it wrong?

R

Edited July 18, 2014 by robsamui

[Tropicalevo]

wow so you are the smart guy,

to know somebody to know how to get a work permit doesnt it makes legal,

so you pay 4 thai staff 9000 Baht salary every month + social insurance, their tax and your company tax?

it makes you running costs of minimum 60000 Baht every month for your work permit, so may be this is not the solution for

people who teach diving.

and may be you not have this cost then your work permit is produced by a fraud and illegal too

1. I hate if all the smart people here say respect the thai law, it is illegal to work, get your proper visa, and so on

2. most of this guys breaking the law also, building companys to buy land or houses, use thai shareholders without they have payed any shares,

use thais to run bussines, making false statement that their wife owned the money for buying a house and so on

It is not a problem for 99% of the foreigners to respect thai laws, BUT FISRT THAI PEOPLE HAVE TO RESPECT IT TOO!!!!!!!!

show the law is for all people the same in Thailand,

when Thais respect the thai law then foreigners for sure will respect also .....

and go out of the country and come back every 30 days are not against thai law, why they not chance their law? it would be easy ...

yes working illegal is against law, so what the companys can do?

99% of all limited company with foreign shares a breaking the law, because the thai shareholders never paid any money, they are only muppets and paid nominies, it is the only way for foreigner to open a bussiness, pay 100% and own 49%.

without foreign bussiness thailand would have 70% less tourists,

Dont blame the people who want to live here, what ever reason they have, you can blame only a racist law and goverment,

instead of holding together and try to improve the situation the foreigners are egoists and jealous, happy if some other gets a problem,

but never forget, you will be the next

What a pile of steaming hogswash.

Almost every comment is subjective, emotional, lacking understanding or just plain silly. Beginning with - wow so you are the smart guy, to know somebody to know how to get a work permit doesnt it makes legal,

and then ending with a wild and OTT rant about racist laws and government.

The poster seems to have no knowledge at all about the legal, official and accepted above-board way of using a financial management service to handle visas, work permits and accounting, including the other thing he know nothing about - tax returns.

If this is representative of attitude and perceptions of the people working here illegally with no documents (a guess seeing that he's so supportive of them) then it's no wonder the government is trying to get rid of them

R

Rob, your response was much more eloquent and succint than mine would have been.

I would have rambled on about how I actually have 10 staff, and their salary is none of the poster's business (but you do not get good workers by paying a minimum wage).

And that over the years I have paid a number of different specialists to carry out due diligence and to make sure that my business conforms to ALL aspects of Thai law. Have they all been breaking the law?

I would maybe have rambled on about how I do not give a monkey's fart about a few illegal dive masters on KT - but I do object to the tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of illegal people working in all sorts of industries - just because it was easy. (The number of illegal workers on Samui makes KT look insignificant.)

60,000 baht a month? This shows an absolute lack of business acumen. I pay more than that out every one to two weeks. BUT - because I do everything by the book, follow the rules and I have not paid a bribe or backhander in more than 20 years of being in/out in Thailand - I now make money.

And I do not run a dive school - that one is hard to make a profit legally at the moment. Too many suppliers, not enough customers. I would guess that if you halved the number of dive schools - the ones that were left would make more money with little increase in cost structure. Simple math but it seems that common sense is not very common. Maybe the application of the law will sort that one out.

Anyway - I'll stop my ramblings - I had decided that the person who made that post was not in control of themselves. Emotions instead of facts. (I actually didn't understand some of the comments)

[Taco]

Funny that I was just talking today with a fellow business owner in Phangan about Koh Tao being the worst off tourist destination with the new visa rules. As as restaurant owner that is popular with local farang in Phangan, I know a LOT of dive masters, instructors etc... and almost non have a work permit. Most will just move on to more hospitable countries like Honduras or Cambodia. There is a good chance Thailand dive ops will be more like Indonesia where there is a good amount of local dive masters. That of course would be better for the Thais but would be a rough transition. Just imagine the number of luk krung island babys popping up from those after dive drink sessions!

While the army is tightening up some regulations they should also relax some. My only illegal staff member is an English girl who is married to a Thai man. Why the hell should she not be able to work in Thailand? Absolutely makes no sense what so ever.

[AngThong]

I left already Hope you guys sort it out on them there islands. Stay afloat!

[notmyself]

I left already Hope you guys sort it out on them there islands. Stay afloat!

I for one would be interested to hear about where you end up and how it is, though in the relevant sub forum.

[Absolut]

I left already Hope you guys sort it out on them there islands. Stay afloat!

Sad to hear that AngThong, I read your other thread and have in the past always enjoyed your posts and insight on KP.

I hope you find a way to come back, good luck wherever it is your travels have taken you.

[jacko45k]

Agreed, i am here to learn to dive. I am currently going through my IDC. Diving alone i must have spent 200,000 upwards. I don't see how earning a little while i spend a fortune is an issue.

Money into Thailand, as none of my money goes out must exceed 500,000bht.

I will say one thing about koh tao. Dodging immigration is fairly easy, we are a tiny island. As soon as they get here we know. Plus the main copper owns the land the house i live in. Mine should be one of the safe havens.

I like Thailand and want to stay longer, like others I am just going to have to stump up and pay. I would like to find permanent employment when i finish IDC first though.

Sent from my HUAWEI G610-U20 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Perhaps this is the reason for the changes do you think?

You have already shown a little disregard to the law of the land and believe spending a little money 'covers' it.

You could apply for nationality.

[futsukayoi]

Most of the dive operations on Tao (and many around the rest of the country) are operating illegally and this has many harmful effects on Thailand. These operations use resources, services and infrastructure which they contribute little or often nothing towards. They also deprive Thais of good employment opportunities. Any country has the right to enforce it's immigration, employment and corporate laws. In Thailand most of those laws are already less restrictive than many other countries.

The diving industry is not a special case. For Koh Tao following the rules would not kill the diving industry but it would force the industry through a painful transition to a different business model.

I go regularly to dive in Koh Tao partly for the convenience of having many dive sites so close, but mainly because it is so much cheaper. Basically most Koh Tao dive operators have positioned themselves as high volume certification factories at a rock bottom price. Paying taxes / insurance, legally employing Thais rather than foreigners helping on boats, with equipment or in their offices would raise those costs and allow other locations to compete (on a fairer playing field).

Thai Instructors and Dive Masters is more difficult as many Thais cannot swim or lack adequate foreign language skills. However in my experience Tao does much less than elsewhere to develop Thai Instructors and DMs. I dive with dived with 4 operators in Samui, 1 in Phuket and 2 in Pattaya and all but one had Thai DMs and/or Instructors (several have others in the process of being trained in diving and English/Japanese. I have dived with 5 operations in Koh Tao and none had any Thai Instructors or DMs. I think there could certainly be a case for a dive operation being allowed work permits for a proportion of these staff while they are able to demonstrate that they are unable to recruit more qualified locals and can show they are making genuine progress in developing others.

In my view this would not destroy Koh Tao and after a painful period would improve it. I admit I am very biased. As an experienced diver I have been increasingly frustrated at turning up at a dive site with a hundred or more divers in the water and a few less would be well worth an increase in price resulting from complying with laws.

[notmyself]

Agreed, i am here to learn to dive. I am currently going through my IDC. Diving alone i must have spent 200,000 upwards. I don't see how earning a little while i spend a fortune is an issue.

Money into Thailand, as none of my money goes out must exceed 500,000bht.

I will say one thing about koh tao. Dodging immigration is fairly easy, we are a tiny island. As soon as they get here we know. Plus the main copper owns the land the house i live in. Mine should be one of the safe havens.

I like Thailand and want to stay longer, like others I am just going to have to stump up and pay. I would like to find permanent employment when i finish IDC first though.

Sent from my HUAWEI G610-U20 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Perhaps this is the reason for the changes do you think?

You have already shown a little disregard to the law of the land and believe spending a little money 'covers' it.

You could apply for nationality.

Thailand created a problem and the only way to solve it is by using a wide brush. I will certainly be affected though I don't work but just take extended holidays so perhaps I will go for one of these. http://www.thailand-visa.net/religious-visa-employment.html

I'd be interested in doing it so not like I'm trying to circumvent anything is it?

[adamtwilley]

Awesome response so far. So many people actually taking this issue seriously and thinking how to go forwards.

The discussion is not about morality or ethics lads. This is just causing grief.

Those of you who are moaning about people working illegally need to drop the attitudes. Then you will see this issue is much bigger than just YOU and YOUR taxes. They are clearly missing that some of us have no option but to work illegally to start. Then there is also the fact they are forgetting that unlike my country the UK, can't speak for others, most immigrants here actually boost the economy, not act as a burden. In the UK though those who moan about immigration are normally racist, narrow minded, antisocial and/or politically motivated in a negative way.

Lets keep it constructive and objective. Nobody minds opinions, though please refrain from calling people names, acting childishly or just plucking numbers out the sky to prove your case.

I actually asked around and did a little research which those who have read my posts will understand.

To reiterate, the topic is how are the visa changes going to affect the future of the islands. Not your personal opinion on immigration. This is a local thread targeted at the local economy and community, as this is what is important to us.

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[Tao Diver]

People are under the assumption that the dive shops here are making a killing. I work for a shop that provides me with a work permit, pays for my visa, pays me when I am sick, just had 2 weeks off with dengue so happy about getting paid. I get a 5 days a month off and 1 months holiday. I also get a fixed salary against commission only like a lot of the other shops here. We charge just under 11,000 Baht for an open water dive course that takes 3 1/2 days to complete. How much do you think the shop takes as profit from that ?

It surprised me when it is all broken down.

[adamtwilley]

I see a chance here to make money too, not just loose it.

Holes in the economy will open up, as demand and supply will change. Being able to correctly judge the change is surely a huge advantage.

What do you think to this viewpoint? How do you think people will achieve it?

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[notmyself]

Awesome response so far. So many people actually taking this issue seriously and thinking how to go forwards.

The discussion is not about morality or ethics lads. This is just causing grief.

Those of you who are moaning about people working illegally need to drop the attitudes. Then you will see this issue is much bigger than just YOU and YOUR taxes. They are clearly missing that some of us have no option but to work illegally to start. Then there is also the fact they are forgetting that unlike my country the UK, can't speak for others, most immigrants here actually boost the economy, not act as a burden. In the UK though those who moan about immigration are normally racist, narrow minded, antisocial and/or politically motivated in a negative way.

Lets keep it constructive and objective. Nobody minds opinions, though please refrain from calling people names, acting childishly or just plucking numbers out the sky to prove your case.

I actually asked around and did a little research which those who have read my posts will understand.

To reiterate, the topic is how are the visa changes going to affect the future of the islands. Not your personal opinion on immigration. This is a local thread targeted at the local economy and community, as this is what is important to us.

You chastise others for their supposed subjective views yet your arguments are solipsistic in nature. Hmmmmm... No thank you.

[adamtwilley]

Awesome response so far. So many people actually taking this issue seriously and thinking how to go forwards.

The discussion is not about morality or ethics lads. This is just causing grief.

Those of you who are moaning about people working illegally need to drop the attitudes. Then you will see this issue is much bigger than just YOU and YOUR taxes. They are clearly missing that some of us have no option but to work illegally to start. Then there is also the fact they are forgetting that unlike my country the UK, can't speak for others, most immigrants here actually boost the economy, not act as a burden. In the UK though those who moan about immigration are normally racist, narrow minded, antisocial and/or politically motivated in a negative way.

Lets keep it constructive and objective. Nobody minds opinions, though please refrain from calling people names, acting childishly or just plucking numbers out the sky to prove your case.

I actually asked around and did a little research which those who have read my posts will understand.

To reiterate, the topic is how are the visa changes going to affect the future of the islands. Not your personal opinion on immigration. This is a local thread targeted at the local economy and community, as this is what is important to us.

You chastise others for their supposed subjective views yet your arguments are solipsistic in nature. Hmmmmm... No thank you.

No. I am the OP of the topic and trying to stop it going off on a tangent, which is unhealthy and not intended.

Your very opinion that you think this is an argument is telling as to your intentions. Asking people to quantify or support their statements is not selfish in anyway shape or form. This will only add to the quality of discussion. Please stay on topic or remove yourself from the thread.

I actually find all this interesting as i know a lot of you also do. That's why this thread has had so many views. My apologies to those are actively contributing.

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[ParadiseLost]

People are under the assumption that the dive shops here are making a killing. I work for a shop that provides me with a work permit, pays for my visa, pays me when I am sick, just had 2 weeks off with dengue so happy about getting paid. I get a 5 days a month off and 1 months holiday. I also get a fixed salary against commission only like a lot of the other shops here. We charge just under 11,000 Baht for an open water dive course that takes 3 1/2 days to complete. How much do you think the shop takes as profit from that ?

It surprised me when it is all broken down.

Good to hear there are responsible operators who at least attempt to do things legally. Is this common or are most illegal as suggested in the OP?

The problem as I see it (and already mentioned by others) is that there are too many operations offering undercut pricing as they do not have to worry about legal business restrictions and costs.

My guess is there are potential disasters if they are paying as little attention to safety precautions. We never hear about minor accidents, or close calls - is this a problem?

The 64 dive shops - are they stand-alone operations, or contained within resorts? Perhaps there is no need for a resort to employ DM, they could use outside operators (killing their golden goose perhaps?)...

Oh, one more point - can you guys stop using the term IDC? I was horrified when I saw a post discussing seeking permanent positions after completing IDC... Just kidding...