Vietnam presents Thai Air Force with MiG-21bis fighter

[metisdead]

A post that was way off topic has been removed as well as the replies.

[sgtsabai]

Ok, seems most of us have taken a deep breath and calmed down, including me. There is one glaring problem with forums, often times what we post doesn't come out the way we meant or is easily misunderstood. I use "commie" in a very sarcastic way, why some folks even say I'm a cynical, sarcastic bastard...lol. I am. Most of us actually seem to be thinking in similar terms that are if nothing else something we can agree to disagree in part on. And yes, like the US is no longer a democracy, China and Vietnam are not truly communist, but they are enemies. Speaking of MIG 21's, if I'm not mistaken the first time I flew into Phnom Penh back in '04 I saw what appeared to be MIG 21's sitting off to the side, a very quick look as we were landing. I could have been wrong. Looked like they hadn't been moved in many, many years. My ex-father-in-law never said anything about dogfighting with the MIGs and I was the only family member he ever talked to about the war. I saw his combat films from his aircraft, a bit hairy to say the least. His wife and daughters didn't even know they existed. Although he denied, denied, denied he flew at least one mission out of Udonthani. A special opp's type friend of mine that I worked with back in the states saw a plaque thanking him for something he had done in the officer's mess. He could drive an airplane. Before his daughter and I married she spent many nights, weekends at my place outside Albuquerque, NM. I was woken one morning by 2 A-7's almost taking my roof off and by the time I got outside all I could see was the tail and exhaust of a vertical climb. She was in her dad's car, I put "Another Veteran for Peace" bumper sticker on it and it was 2 weeks before anybody had the courage to say anything to the colonel about it. Ah, I married the daughter soon after, I can take a "hint"...lol.

[bobfish]

sgtsabai

I saw some Mig21s in Pnhom Penh in 1980. I thought maybe the same ones as nothing looked operational and the airport was overgrown and littered with spent casings. They could perhaps have been PAVN though following the '79 invasion, as the RCAF did not get operational with them until later.

Edited July 19, 2014 by bobfish

[Trembly]

tonbridgebrit, give it a break, we are on the subject of airplanes. If you want to start a thread about Ho start on. He lived in Udonthani and NPK. In the meantime, don't speak about that which you know nothing, except right wing propaganda. Ho was a, gasp commie, the OSS knew it and so what. He wanted to be a friend of the US. Had the US not started a war against him, he just might have been and that "Wall" might not exist in DC. My wife's grandfather was a, gasp, Thai commie, one of the only ones in Thailand that never stopped fighting the Japanese. In your eyes he would be considered a terrorist. I'll bet you think obushma is a commie pinko. Go back to school and quit listening to faux, not the, news. Can we please get back on subject, MIG 21 that doesn't, hasn't flown in years? They were good aircraft for their time. Thailand might make closer ties with a commie country against another commie country, oh my, must be mind boggling to you.

Made me laugh s̶i̶r̶ sgt!

Your next drink in BKK is on me.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Trembly

[Paulzed]

Perhaps all you clever dicks should take a look at this before you prattle out some more inane comments?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vietnam_War_flying_aces

Hokum.

Do you actually believe the stats that North Vietnam pushed out?

Bigger fool you if you do, I would trust the stats of a communist country at war about as far as I could throw a Mig 21!

The link you posted isn't even verified.

American fighters had a far superior kill ratio to the Vietnamese, 19:3 for the F8 fighter the F4 shot down 66 Mig 21's, confirmed kills and finished the war with an 11:1 kill ratio (although it started with a much lower ratio until a machine gun was fitted for dog fighting)..

Considering that Mig 21's didn't often mix it up with US fighters but would fly in at top speed, attack bombers and keep going I don't see how the figures can be close to correct.

The North Vietnamese didn't have that many Mig 21's and used them sparingly because of the kill ratio.

"The entry of missile-armed, supersonic Mig-21's in early 1966 dramatically increased the VPAF ( Vietnam People's Air Force ) threat.

The USAF's primary counter to the MiG was the F-4 Phantom II fighter

Though outnumbered, VPAF MiGs had some significant advantages.

Guided by ground controllers using early warning radar, MiG pilots only attacked under ideal circumstances, such as when USAF aircraft were bomb-laden, low on fuel, or damaged.

The small, hard-to-see MiGs typically made one-pass attacks at high speed, then escaped to a sanctuary (either their airfields, which were not bombed until mid-1967, or to nearby communist China).

Since they were always over friendly territory, MiG pilots could be back in action quickly if they survived being shot down.

USAF fighter pilots had better training and superior aircraft, but they endured several disadvantages.

One serious issue was missile reliability and performance. Over one-half of the missiles fired by the USAF during the SEA War malfunctioned, and only about 1 in 11 fired scored a victory.

At the end of the Southeast Asia War in 1973, the VPAF had lost nearly 150 MiGs in combat to USAF fighter crews, while the USAF lost about 70 aircraft (of all types) to MiGs".

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=18112

It amazes and fascinates me, how USA claims to have won all of the battles, but actually lost the war.

How can you win all of the battles and lose the war.

[Trembly]

Funny thing is, that while the Vietnamese are shipping their Russian museum pieces for display in Thailand, they are fervently seeking out a new relationship with the US. The Vietnam War was indeed a murderous fiasco for all concerned. Going on almost 40 years after its end and the two antagonists might well find themselves joined in an alliance once again. I always thought we Americans made a mistake in Vietnam. Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French. Vietnam and the US will always have the same mutual concern--China. But it's a good move to send the Mig to Thailand, as some Thais seem hell bent on building a dependency on China, while all their ASEAN partners are becoming worried about the PRC.

"The Vietnam War was a murderous fiasco for all concerned". Well, yes !

"Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French". Sorry, what ??

The USA fought to liberate France during World War Two. This Ho Chi Minh person. He certainly would not have allied himself with the USA to fight against the French ! The French were the colonial masters, I really don't think Ho would have wanted to remove the French and replace them with America as a colonial master ! Don't forget, the USA fought the Vietnam War, supposedly, to prevent the communists taking over Vietnam. And Ho Chi Minh, he WAS a communist, right ??

Yes, I know everybody loves a winner, and Ho Chi Minh was a winner. But he was a winner for Vietnam, AGAINST America ! I really don't think that American service-men cheered on Ho Chi Minh during the Vietnam War. That's like saying American soldiers didn't really like Adolf Hitler during World War Two !

And is it really the case that Vietnam and America have the same mutual concern-China ? There are a large number of Chinese-owned factories in Vietnam. And the CIA World Facebook basically says, that Vietnam does considerably more trade with China than it does with the USA ! Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110117082642AA78HwN

http://www.thehistoryreader.com/modern-history/ho-chi-minh-thomas-jefferson/

The US, siding with colonialist France, drove HCM to the communists for support. He was, at heart, a Vietnamese nationalist. This was not the first or last time the US would choose the wrong side to the detriment of the whole world. The US spent more to help France defend its colonial stakes in Vietnam, in the last five years of the 1950s, than it spent on the entire Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe. Massive stupidity, arrogance, and blindness on the part of the US government (and possible corruption). HCM would have gladly accepted US support to gain independence and your assertion that the US would replace France as a colonialist is ridiculous. It sounds like you have been propagandized. I know it's hard to let go of your dogma but please read the links and educate yourself.

Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

Yes.

Okay, okay, let's get into this Ho Chi Minh person, and try and see what political group he was in.

According to wikipedia, he did travel to France, USA and England during the early part of his life !

In France, 1920, he was part of the French communists. In the early 1920s, he went to the USSR (by then, definitely a communist country) and was with the communists there. He went to China in 1925, and was a communist there. He left China on 1927, he left because the Chinese Nationalists (under Chan Kai Shek) took over China, he was forced to leave. He did actually turn up in Thailand in 1928. He went to the Soviet Union in the 1930s, and back to communist China in the late 1930s.

So, basically, he was a communist ! Yes, the CIA (they was called the OSS back then) had contact with him in 1945.

And basically, bearing in mind that he was a communist at a pretty early time, well, I don't think we can say that the USA drove Ho to the communists for support. Yes, he was a Vietnamese nationalist, he loved his nation. And when the French left Vietnam, okay, so we have Vietnam and America fighting a war. If Ho did love the USA, and if he was not a communist, why didn't Ho say to the Americans "hello America, I'm not a communist, my nation is not a communist country, you're not interested in becoming my new colonial master, I love you, stop spending a lot of your money to fight this war against my country, I want your support and nobody else's, you're only fighting my nation because you don't want my nation to be a communist country".

Why didn't Ho Chi Minh say that to America ? Is it because he was scared that China and Russia would declare war on America, and that China and Russia would win ??

"Rametindallas", you ask me to educate myself ! I say to you, read the stuff yourself ! The USA wanted to stop the spread of communism, the USA regarded communism as a cancer that had to be stopped, the so-called domino effect. It appears to me, that you love Ho CHi Minh for whatever reasons. You don't want a picture were Ho Chi Minh was actually against the Americans. You're trying to re-write history, where Ho Chi Minh is regarded as a friend of the USA !!!

"MARILYN MONROE HAD A SEVEN YEAR ITCH, HO CHI MINH IS A SON OF A BITCH".

He did, but the US wasn't having any of it. They were more interested in getting France on side with the nascent UN, the international finance arrangements as per Bretton-Woods accord that were so enormous they set the scene for everything we're witnessing today, and much other horse trading.

For France's acquiescence in all of that, Uncle Sam agreed to look the other way while France tried to force itself on Vietnam for a second time. Uncle Sam backed the wrong horse.

Ho Chi Minh always said that he was a Vietnamese first and a communist second. He was a big fan of Jefferson too. He worked menial jobs in England and France until he was offered a place at university in Russia. Can you blame a young man working menial jobs on a distant continent for accepting such an offer? What do you think his chances of getting a university education in 1920's France or England would have been, coming from where he did?

He reached out to 'the west' many times since the 1920's and continued to do so even after they ignored or ridiculed him. The west left him with no choice but to turn to the only other major power for support. They looked a gift horse in the mouth.

Ho Chi Minh's letters to America

Ho Chi Minh's political education in France

Edited July 19, 2014 by Trembly

[simple1]

It amazes and fascinates me, how USA claims to have won all of the battles, but actually lost the war.

How can you win all of the battles and lose the war.

Politics.

[Rorri]

How to get rid of your outdated obsolete junk - any suggestions what the Thais can dump on them?

How about a few concrete pillars from failed Japanese projects? A remarkable monument to the history of corruption, failed dreams and fortunes wasted...

They could put the Mig in the submarine pen. A Mig-pen.

Or better still, one used, useless incumbent Phuket governor.

[phuketandsee]

He said the fighter aircraft was able to destroy several F-105, F-4 and B-52 fighter bombers which were very powerful at that time. (MCOT online news)

Maybe one of you military guys can set this straight, but I thought the B52 was a strategic bomber, not a fighter bomber. And I don't remember too many North Vietnamese aircraft ever taking to the skies--at least not while the USAF was there. I could be wrong. But there should be some experts out there who know.

I think you will find that the Vietnamese air force acquitted themselves fairly well against the USAF given the difference in aircraft technology and funds available to them.

Probably their most noted success was the downing of John Sidney McCain III over Hanoi, where part of the aircraft he was in still sits in an ornamental lake.

The "Hanoi Hilton" is also worth a visit if your ever that way, mainly to see how the French treated their "colonial subjects".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain

You are right Dave, the Vietnamese aquitted themselves more than faily well in the circumstances.

However John McCain's Skyhawk was shot down by a missile, not the airforce, and landed in Truc Bach lake and is not the wreckage in "an ornamental lake". That belongs to a B52 - if indeed it is still there (I saw it in 1999)

Edited July 19, 2014 by phuketandsee

[paz]

It amazes and fascinates me, how USA claims to have won all of the battles, but actually lost the war.

How can you win all of the battles and lose the war.

Politics.

If lots of dead young Americans is politics, then yes.

[watcharacters]

Good, the further we can develop relations with our neighbors including Russia the less we have to depend on the yanks and their outdated technology.

.

Please enlighten as to the identify of "WE".

[tifino]

delayed thanks @TPI

... from a fellow TPI (which shows, to those that know what a TPI is) - that I ain't no US, or Thai

veteran.

And all this mis-information years ago around the ending of Vietnam (war) came from the television and print media, who wanted to perpetuate their news-worthiness.

War sells storyline...

now where were we - ah yes!! - Thailand gets a MIG-21,

and all we get from the Land of the Big Delta, is Basa Fish

[Trembly]

delayed thanks @TPI

... from a fellow TPI (which shows, to those that know what a TPI is) - that I ain't no US, or Thai

veteran.

And all this mis-information years ago around the ending of Vietnam (war) came from the television and print media, who wanted to perpetuate their news-worthiness.

War sells storyline...

now where were we - ah yes!! - Thailand gets a MIG-21,

and all we get from the Land of the Big Delta, is Basa Fish

Is that similar to a Splash Target Coxwain?

[dennisrobertpell]

Perhaps all you clever dicks should take a look at this before you prattle out some more inane comments?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vietnam_War_flying_aces

Hokum.

Do you actually believe the stats that North Vietnam pushed out?

Bigger fool you if you do, I would trust the stats of a communist country at war about as far as I could throw a Mig 21!

The link you posted isn't even verified.

American fighters had a far superior kill ratio to the Vietnamese, 19:3 for the F8 fighter the F4 shot down 66 Mig 21's, confirmed kills and finished the war with an 11:1 kill ratio (although it started with a much lower ratio until a machine gun was fitted for dog fighting)..

Considering that Mig 21's didn't often mix it up with US fighters but would fly in at top speed, attack bombers and keep going I don't see how the figures can be close to correct.

The North Vietnamese didn't have that many Mig 21's and used them sparingly because of the kill ratio.

[ParadiseLost]

I would like to thank everyone who has contributed so much inside info, I have learned quite a lot from this thread.

As I am unfortunately unable to add anything intelligent, I would just like to ask if the following statement "The CIA is a 'self licking ice cream cone'. It creates the problem so we can have the (military) answer" translates to "The CIA are c-cksucking warmongers"?

[JimGant]

Rest of the world is also fed up with US sacrifices and wishes all of you all the best and go home!

Amen, brother. Why we're still wasting billions in tax dollars to keep troops and bases in Europe is ludicrous. Should have come home years ago, while there was time to allow the Cyrillic alphabet to become predominant.

[Richan]

Rest of the world is also fed up with US sacrifices and wishes all of you all the best and go home!

Amen, brother. Why we're still wasting billions in tax dollars to keep troops and bases in Europe is ludicrous. Should have come home years ago, while there was time to allow the Cyrillic alphabet to become predominant.

I can't blame any american for wishing to go home and leave Europe to it self. But before you go, I want to thank you for not having to learn the cyrillic alphabet during the cold war!