Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[orientalist]

As one of the PR-holders that doesn't own a condo or have a wife with property I have been on my friendly landlady's tabien baan for decades. But she is even older than me, has had a couple of health scares and is thinking of selling her condos. This will leave me no option but to get on a friend's  blue book but not actually live in that location (which may even be in another city).

 

I wonder what my legal position would be? Technically illegal, but no one would care? And what about my new place of abode - would the landlord be required to register me with Immigration? And, if so, would that be a problem? Anyone in this situation?

 

 

[Kan Win]

Once you leave your present abode you are required to register with the local police of your new abode.

 

Win

[scorecard]

19 hours ago, orientalist said:

As one of the PR-holders that doesn't own a condo or have a wife with property I have been on my friendly landlady's tabien baan for decades. But she is even older than me, has had a couple of health scares and is thinking of selling her condos. This will leave me no option but to get on a friend's  blue book but not actually live in that location (which may even be in another city).

 

I wonder what my legal position would be? Technically illegal, but no one would care? And what about my new place of abode - would the landlord be required to register me with Immigration? And, if so, would that be a problem? Anyone in this situation?

 

 

There seems to often be confusion about the Certificate of Rediesnce (PR) official book and the RED police registration book so:

 

1. Thai Certificate of Residence (PR) holders are not required to advise the address where they live to Thai Immigration, and they are not required to do 90 day reports.

 

2. They are required to initially register themselves with a local police station and they are issued a RED Police Registration book by that police station.

 

The holder is required to report back to that same police station 12 months later to reconfirm their address and to get a new photo glued into the RED Police Registration book. All very mechanical, there's no 'aproval' needed, no interview to pass.

 

Then they must report again to the police station for the same process 5 years later and every further 5 years.

 

If the Certificate of residence holder and therefore RED Police Registration book holder moves to another address they must promptly report their change of address to the police:

 

- If within the same police area it's just a simple change of address in the same RED Police Registration book. As above, it doesn't need to be submitted 'for approval' etc., just note the new address in the RED book and in the local records held at that police station.

 

- If the person moves to another police district/another province etc., the person must quickly report to the original police station where they will prepare a package of documents and give this package to the PR holder who must promptly take the package to the appropriate police station in the new location. They will update the living address in the RED book and start a file for that person at the new police station. (Note: I'm aware that some police station send the package by registered mail to the polie station in the new location.) 

 

There seems to be a rule that cancellation of the registration at the original police station and re-registration at the police station in the new location must be completed in 7 days.

 

Again, all very mechanical, there's no approvals needed. 

 

Into the future, same 5 years process as above. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

20 hours ago, orientalist said:

And what about my new place of abode - would the landlord be required to register me with Immigration? And, if so, would that be a problem? Anyone in this situation?

 

 

When looking for a new place to live, you could make it clear to prospective landlords that you would require them to allow you to be entered into the blue tabien baan of the new apartment or condo. Just make sure that this requirement is written into the new rental agreement. Given current rental market conditions, I don't think you would have too much difficulty getting a landlord's agreement.

 

Immigration does not need to be notified of your change of address, but you would have to change your registered address in your red police book. Scorecard has above outlined the procedure for this.

[scorecard]

On 2/4/2022 at 1:06 PM, Kan Win said:

Once you leave your present abode you are required to register with the local police of your new abode.

 

Win

True, but don't just turn up at a police station in your new area, it's a little more complicated.

 

First visit the police station where you are recorded (your police red book issueing station) and tell them you've moved to a new location, different changwat, city etc. and they will prepare documents to be taken to the assigned police station in the new location.

 

At the new station they will record you into their files of foreigners with PR living in their location and also update your red book. There's no 'test' or official interview to be passed. It's all very mechanical. 

 

My understanding is that the regulations require the PR holder to get this all fixed within 7 days of moving (not 100% if the timing period is correct).

[mortenaa]

Hi guys. I just realized I have passed 5 years as a PR a few weeks ago. Whats the current requirements and paperwork to re-register with the police station in my area? 

[Michael Hare]

2 minutes ago, mortenaa said:

Hi guys. I just realized I have passed 5 years as a PR a few weeks ago. Whats the current requirements and paperwork to re-register with the police station in my area? 

Just take your red book and some photos of your face. That is all I have ever needed. What do you mean by passing the 5 years as a PR a few weeks ago? If you are past the due date you could be in trouble. 

 

[scorecard]

14 minutes ago, Michael Hare said:

Just take your red book and some photos of your face. That is all I have ever needed. What do you mean by passing the 5 years as a PR a few weeks ago? If you are past the due date you could be in trouble. 

 

You do need to quickly get the 5 year update done.

 

Very likely just a very simple comment and update the book and insert the new photo. Perhaps a small fine on top of the update fee (different in every location, at main CM station main update fee is 800Baht). Pleasant officer at CM station always keen for a chat in mixed Thai and English.

 

I was caught outside of LOS because of Covid- 19 travel restrictions etc., when my 5 yr update was due. 

 

My Thai son went to see the guy (about 3 weeks before the update was due) and explained. The officer said 'no problem, bring me the red book and i'll write in the details and you pay the fee (normal 800Baht) and your father can bring a new photo after he comes back to Thailand.

 

Son explained that the book was with me abroad. Cop said to my son, without hestitation/no attitude 'just get your father to mail the book to you, bring it in and i'll process it with the photo to be added later'.

 

Since came to back to LOS, we went to the station, cop very welcoming, quickly pasted in the photo, to suggestion of any 'fee', all done.  

 

On the last visit (above) my son said 'we need to make sure we don't forget, it will be just about 4 years from now when we need to go back. Cop asked him to explain in Thai. 

 

Cop instantly asked me in English 'how old are you?' I responded 77.

 

Cop quietly said to my son 'when people get old many older folks, farang and old Chinese folks with PR for decades, forget and sometimes it never gets updated. It's not a rproblem'. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by scorecard

[mortenaa]

1 hour ago, Michael Hare said:

Just take your red book and some photos of your face. That is all I have ever needed. What do you mean by passing the 5 years as a PR a few weeks ago? If you are past the due date you could be in trouble. 

 

23rd of January was the last stamp. What can of trouble are we talking about. A fine?

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, mortenaa said:

23rd of January was the last stamp. What can of trouble are we talking about. A fine?

It seems that the police stations which handle this subject (not all stations do hndle it) have different policies/appraoches/attitudes on this, typical of law and applications of the law in Thailand. Check my post earlier today, three posts earlier than your post. Maybe a small fine/maybe no fine, case by case day by day.

 

When I first came to CM to live my son took me to 2 bigger nearby stations to ask what we had to do. Both stations looked at my PR book and the RED police book and said they had never seen thse documents before. At one station a snr lady cop inisted there is no such thing as a Certificate of Residence' for Thailand. Both stations called a snr. office. Both times the station snr. said 'no this is not a police matter and inisted I had to take the RED police book to Immigration near CM airport. 

 

My son made some calls and discovered there's big CM changwat station right in the heart of CM city just off Tar Paer Road, not far from CM jail, which handles the police RED book. We went there and all fixed in a few minutes, very friendly knowledgable cop handled it all.

 

Going to the local station which handles this subject with just your red book and new photos might work but I've had PR (Certificate of Residence) for 24+ years therefore many 1/5 year updates, at: Banglamung, Chonburi City and Chiang Mai police stations. Every time they have requested to see my Dark Blue then White covered PR book and the Tabien Baan book that I'm recorded in. In Chonburi City and in Chiang Mai I also put my work permit* book on the desk and the policeman opened it and looked at some of the details but made no comment

_{(*Having Work permits (WP) for successive years is critical to getting the initial PR approval, but having WPs after it's approved is not needed. The reality is that many western and probably quite a few Japanese WP holders, and more have now worked then retired in Thailand and no longer have a WP. That's not an issue - it's not needed to continue to have WPs to continue to hold a Certificate of Residency (PR).}

[onthemoon]

2 hours ago, mortenaa said:

23rd of January was the last stamp. What can of trouble are we talking about. A fine?

I was a couple of months late because it was simply not on my mind. I think the fine was THB 400 or so (in Bangkok). With receipt. No trouble whatsoever.

[Dogmatix]

16 hours ago, onthemoon said:

I was a couple of months late because it was simply not on my mind. I think the fine was THB 400 or so (in Bangkok). With receipt. No trouble whatsoever.

I was about 4 months late in Bangkok about 20 years ago.  The fine was 100 baht then. No hassles.

[MRtommyR]

Hello

I have a two unconnected questions for the PR experts on this thread which I'd appreciate some advice about:

 

1. Identification number

I have had a yellow book & pink ID prior to achieving PR for a couple of years now with a "6-xxx" number. When I move to a blue book following PR approval will I keep this ID number or will they issue a new one starting "8-xxx"? My current number is shown on my son's birth certificate and various other documents. I am fearful this will be an issue if I suddenly change numbers. Does anyone know how to deal with this?

 

2. Future work permits:

 

Can anyone shed any light on how having permanent residency affects the process of getting a work permit?

I have heard that it is "easier" for permanent residents but I have no idea what that means.

 

I also hear reports from some that the requirement for having 4 Thai members of staff per foreigner is removed for PR holders, so in theory a PR holder could get a work permit as a sole employee of a company. Has anyone any experience of this? Clear information on the subject is hard to come by

 

Many thanks!

[mortenaa]

19 hours ago, MRtommyR said:

Hello

I have a two unconnected questions for the PR experts on this thread which I'd appreciate some advice about:

 

1. Identification number

I have had a yellow book & pink ID prior to achieving PR for a couple of years now with a "6-xxx" number. When I move to a blue book following PR approval will I keep this ID number or will they issue a new one starting "8-xxx"? My current number is shown on my son's birth certificate and various other documents. I am fearful this will be an issue if I suddenly change numbers. Does anyone know how to deal with this?

 

2. Future work permits:

 

Can anyone shed any light on how having permanent residency affects the process of getting a work permit?

I have heard that it is "easier" for permanent residents but I have no idea what that means.

 

I also hear reports from some that the requirement for having 4 Thai members of staff per foreigner is removed for PR holders, so in theory a PR holder could get a work permit as a sole employee of a company. Has anyone any experience of this? Clear information on the subject is hard to come by

 

Many thanks!

1. You need to get updated documents with the new ID-number. I had to update in tax records etc. I have no idea about birth certificates, but why would it matter? 

 

2. Its definitely easier. Wen renewing WP, they don't check Thai staff at all.

[Michael Hare]

20 hours ago, MRtommyR said:

Hello

I have a two unconnected questions for the PR experts on this thread which I'd appreciate some advice about:

 

1. Identification number

I have had a yellow book & pink ID prior to achieving PR for a couple of years now with a "6-xxx" number. When I move to a blue book following PR approval will I keep this ID number or will they issue a new one starting "8-xxx"? My current number is shown on my son's birth certificate and various other documents. I am fearful this will be an issue if I suddenly change numbers. Does anyone know how to deal with this?

 

2. Future work permits:

 

Can anyone shed any light on how having permanent residency affects the process of getting a work permit?

I have heard that it is "easier" for permanent residents but I have no idea what that means.

 

I also hear reports from some that the requirement for having 4 Thai members of staff per foreigner is removed for PR holders, so in theory a PR holder could get a work permit as a sole employee of a company. Has anyone any experience of this? Clear information on the subject is hard to come by

 

Many thanks!

For Work Permits the number of Thai staff are never checked. You only need your Thai PR documents to renew the work permit. No need to show your passport. If you own the company, then you can get a work permit for two years. However, the work permit office here in Ubon Ratchathani, insists on seeing the company financial records before renewing the work permit. I get our accountancy firm to do this as it is quite complicated. It is also very annoying. 

 

[Arkady]

41 minutes ago, Michael Hare said:

For Work Permits the number of Thai staff are never checked. You only need your Thai PR documents to renew the work permit. No need to show your passport. If you own the company, then you can get a work permit for two years. However, the work permit office here in Ubon Ratchathani, insists on seeing the company financial records before renewing the work permit. I get our accountancy firm to do this as it is quite complicated. It is also very annoying.

The Thai staff requirement for WPs for PRs was forced on the Labour Ministry by Immigration who resented the fact that PRs were able to bypass their anal requirements for NON-B renewal for those working. It stands to reason that the Labour Ministry might not be very interested in enforcing this provision.  I had WPs with my own company as a PR before they they introduced the Thai staff nonsense for PRs and I was the only employee and sole director.

 

Although Immigration might not agree, it is outrageous to require WPs at all from PRs.  I can't think of any other country that does this. 

 

 

 

[Naiyana]

Hello, I recently got an approval of my PR application done in 2020. I do not own a Blue Tabien Baan. I'm currently having difficulties finding a person who is willing to add me as a resident in their Blue Tabien Baan. Any suggestions - are there any companies offering it as a service (I'm willing to pay)? I've seen cases for Yellow Tabien Baan. I contacted multiple law firms and property agencies but no luck so far. Any lead would be very much appreciated. Thank you.

[orientalist]

The attitude of the authorities seems to be that PR applicants either own a condo or have a spouse with a dwelling and blue book - not so good for those of us who are single and are not so well off. Failing that, one is expected to have made contacts who would help out. I was lucky enough to get put on my landlady's blue book as the condo I rented from her did not have any tabien baan. But if she dies before me or sells her condos (as she is thinking of) I will be in trouble. My partner's family has no property anywhere and everyone in her family is on different blue books of friends.

 

Almost as annoying is that I cannot simply move in with my partner or move to cheaper accommodation when and where I want to. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by orientalist

[thedemon]

Does anyone know whether the Autochannel gates at Suvarnabhumi are working for PR's again?

 

[scorecard]

On 3/17/2022 at 12:36 PM, orientalist said:

The attitude of the authorities seems to be that PR applicants either own a condo or have a spouse with a dwelling and blue book - not so good for those of us who are single and are not so well off. Failing that, one is expected to have made contacts who would help out. I was lucky enough to get put on my landlady's blue book as the condo I rented from her did not have any tabien baan. But if she dies before me or sells her condos (as she is thinking of) I will be in trouble. My partner's family has no property anywhere and everyone in her family is on different blue books of friends.

 

Almost as annoying is that I cannot simply move in with my partner or move to cheaper accommodation when and where I want to. 

You don't ned to actually be domiciled at the address where your appear on a Tabien Baan book.

 

Many thousands of Thai citizens are shown on the Tabien Baan book for their parents or for another relative or a friend in their original location outside of Bangkok (or wherever) but they work full time / live full time in another locations (very possibly Bangkok). This is not illegal and there are no penalties for this situation. 

 

The day I got my PR book the plan for where I was to be added to a Tabien Bann became complicated because of illness.

 

The lady at the gov't office asked (in English) if there was another house/location/Tabien Baan book where my name could be listed.

 

My Thai driver (in fact a friend) politely, quickly asked (in English) if it would be allowed for me to be added to the book for his house? The gov't officer instantly said YES and she instantly looked at me and said OK?

 

The gov't lady asked no further questions.  (My driver had fortutituously put his Tabien Ban book in his jacket pocket that morning along with the documents for another relative to get the relative added to his book.)

 

My driver quickly handed over the book, the gov't officer quickly gave all the docuents to one of her clerical staff, 15 minutes later I was in my driver's book.

 

My name was transferred to the book for another address some months later, no questions asked by anybody. 

 

 

[rimmae2]

9 hours ago, thedemon said:

Does anyone know whether the Autochannel gates at Suvarnabhumi are working for PR's again?

 

Recent information from a Thai friend is that gates are not in use for anyone. I last departed mid January 2022 and returned about 10 days later. Noone in immigration knew when the gates would be in use again for anyone.

 

Near or at row A a new fast track was opened about a month ago.

[Naiyana]

Hello,

 

Finally I got my PR book - certificate of residence today. I’m planning to do a driver’s license soon - Do I still need to have ‘ORIGINAL PRESENT RESIDENT ADDRESS IN THAILAND CERTIFY FROM EMBASSY / IMMIGRATION BUREAU (VALID FOR 1 YEAR)’ or I can use PR book or Red book or Pink card instead? 
Thank you!

[onthemoon]

50 minutes ago, Naiyana said:

Hello,

 

Finally I got my PR book - certificate of residence today. I’m planning to do a driver’s license soon - Do I still need to have ‘ORIGINAL PRESENT RESIDENT ADDRESS IN THAILAND CERTIFY FROM EMBASSY / IMMIGRATION BUREAU (VALID FOR 1 YEAR)’ or I can use PR book or Red book or Pink card instead? 
Thank you!

Congratulations, and welcome to the club! 

 

You do not need the letter from the embassy any more. 

 

For the driver's licence, you just need pink ID and tabien baan, like Thai citizens. However, bring your red book, just in case.

 

When your re-entry permit (it is now called "non-quote immigrant visa") and endorsement at Immigration (Chaeng Wattana for Bangkok residents), you need the red book and the blue book (which will be replaced with a white book when full). Do not forget to get these stamps into your passport and the blue (later white) book before you leave the country, otherwise your "permanent" residence will be cancelled. It is anything but permanent if you don't have those stamps.

[scorecard]

45 minutes ago, Naiyana said:

Hello,

 

Finally I got my PR book - certificate of residence today. I’m planning to do a driver’s license soon - Do I still need to have ‘ORIGINAL PRESENT RESIDENT ADDRESS IN THAILAND CERTIFY FROM EMBASSY / IMMIGRATION BUREAU (VALID FOR 1 YEAR)’ or I can use PR book or Red book or Pink card instead? 
Thank you!

 

Congratulations. Have you received your RED police registration book?

 

I can't give you a specific answer re needing/not needing a letter to prove address from your embassy.

 

I can share the following:

 

About 5 years ago there was a big drive for all drivers license holders to swap their old hand produced cards with photo pasted on to the computer produced plastic licenses with photo taken as part of the process to make the plastic card.

 

I also have Thai PR - Certificate of Residence (now 25 years). And I got 2 lifetime drivers licences (car and bike) 25+ years ago (before lifetime licenses were stopped).

 

The Thai manager of the small hotel where I was often staying in Bkk (my home in Chiang Mai) mentioned that he going to the DLT that day to swap his old hand produced licenses to the plastic cards and he asked if I wanted to go with him and swap my licenses.

 

I readily agreed and I took: my passport, my PR book and my police RED book. He took his Tabien Baan book.

 

The DLT staff quickly noticed I had a PR book and RED police book, They manually entered the details from my old paper cards into their database and took my address from my police RED book. Plastic cards received 10 - 15 minutes later.

 

Whether they follow this appraoch today I of course don't know.

 

Good luck. 

 

The twist: the hotel manager had a problem, his licenses quickly proved to be false. However the DLT staff reacted with no anger or tut tut tut etc., they just quickly said 'you need to take/pass a quick written test then we can issue the plastic cards'. Five minutes later test passed, 15 minutes later he had his 2 plastic cards.

[Michael Hare]

21 hours ago, onthemoon said:

Congratulations, and welcome to the club! 

 

You do not need the letter from the embassy any more. 

 

For the driver's licence, you just need pink ID and tabien baan, like Thai citizens. However, bring your red book, just in case.

 

When your re-entry permit (it is now called "non-quote immigrant visa") and endorsement at Immigration (Chaeng Wattana for Bangkok residents), you need the red book and the blue book (which will be replaced with a white book when full). Do not forget to get these stamps into your passport and the blue (later white) book before you leave the country, otherwise your "permanent" residence will be cancelled. It is anything but permanent if you don't have those stamps.

For the driver's licence, you just need pink ID and tabien baan, like Thai citizens. However, bring your red book, just in case.

 

This is definitely true, but it is often not easy, because many officials at the transport department have no understanding of PR. 

 

 

[onthemoon]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hare said:

For the driver's licence, you just need pink ID and tabien baan, like Thai citizens. However, bring your red book, just in case.

 

This is definitely true, but it is often not easy, because many officials at the transport department have no understanding of PR. 

True, I experienced this the first time. They insisted that foreigners must always use their passports only. I ask them to call the Khet, the department that issues ID cards and also issued the pink ID, and the supervisor actually did call. They explained it to her, and then it was no problem any more.

 

Please be polite with the officers that do not understand PR. They are just doing what they think is correct and in the best interest of the country. The problem is that the government does not train them properly.

[orientalist]

On 3/30/2022 at 11:50 AM, scorecard said:

My driver quickly handed over the book, the gov't officer quickly gave all the docuents to one of her clerical staff, 15 minutes later I was in my driver's book.

Good to know. My experience of registering at the District Office was very different. An appointment with the boss, two witnesses had to come with me, and an hour-long interrogation.

[onthemoon]

25 minutes ago, orientalist said:

Good to know. My experience of registering at the District Office was very different. An appointment with the boss, two witnesses had to come with me, and an hour-long interrogation.

Just for the record, I also had to bring two witnesses in order to be added to the tabien baan. But it all seemed very routine and easy.

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, onthemoon said:

True, I experienced this the first time. They insisted that foreigners must always use their passports only. I ask them to call the Khet, the department that issues ID cards and also issued the pink ID, and the supervisor actually did call. They explained it to her, and then it was no problem any more.

 

Please be polite with the officers that do not understand PR. They are just doing what they think is correct and in the best interest of the country. The problem is that the government does not train them properly.

How true, many gov't officers, many ministries have never heard of PR and have serious doubts that such a thing exists.

 

I was coming off Rama 4 Rd onto the tollway to Chonburi on a green light, still green when we arrived at the tollgate. Instantly a policeman appeared in my window and claimed fai dang fai dang 500B. My 20 yo Thai son was with me (he hates the police for his own reasons) and he politely told the officer 'it was green 20 metres back from this point, my father has not broken any law'. 

 

At the same time my son has opened the small zip puch where I keep my passport, PR book, police Red book etc which was sitting near the gear shift between the 2 front seats.

 

Policeman demanded my passport, son instantly handed him my PR book and said 'my father is a resident of Thailand'.

 

Second higher rank policman now turns up and asks what's happening. Before the first policeman can explain my son quickly starts talking (politely) and says that 'my father didn't go through a red light and you can see he's a resident of Thailand'.

 

Higher cop says something about the 'my father' comment made by my son. Son already has his Thai ID out of his wallet, gives it to the senior cop and points out that the family name is a typical western name. Snr cop looks like he's seen a ghost'. Meanwhile senior cop is quickly reading every page of my PR book. Son now hands him my RED police registration book.

 

Senior cop totally confused and suddenly says to the more junior initial cop 'maybe from an embassy!' Junior responds 'YES'.

 

Both cops now take a very different attitude, snr salutes me and says politely to my son 'where are you going, do you want a police escort to your destination?

 

Son says 'No thank you, we just want to get going'.

 

Snr now quickly commands the gang of cops that have gathered to stand back and salute and he waves us on our way. 

[stbkk]

3 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

For the driver's licence, you just need pink ID and tabien baan, like Thai citizens. However, bring your red book, just in case.

 

This is definitely true, but it is often not easy, because many officials at the transport department have no understanding of PR. 

 

 

When I renewed my 5 year license last year, the first level staff I spoke to had no idea about PR's, but quickly called their supervisor/manager. She was very familiar with it, and it was all completed smoothly enough once she got involved. My suggestion would be to just lead with the pink id card, and see what happens. I made the mistake of giving them my pr book and the pink id, which may have caused the confusion.