Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, Alex19 said:

I was just wondering, if the PR could simply be sold a similar way to the Elite. How much would you estimate it ?

Not will not happen here.

The immigration act requires a person to be contributing to the country in some way such as working and paying taxes. The immigration act has not been amended since it was issued in 1979 and the chances of that happening is about zero.

[Alex19]

Hi Unbonjoe,

 

Thanks.

I'm quite sure it will never happen too.

 

I already have the PR, just guessing what would be the value of it if it could simply be sold

[SteveB2]

Although a PR application is not cheap and very time consuming to obtain, it is based very much on your overall personal status as a 'foreigner that Thailand would like to encourage to remain here'. The application fee and numerous stated minimum requirements are just an opening gambit. 

 

The 'Elite Privilege Entry Visa' is more based on a simple cash purchase - as long as you are not a seriously undesirable stinky, unwashed, tattoo-faced, knuckle dragging criminal - then you will likely get it.

 

A good place to start in understanding the value of an immigration status that permits you to stay in Thailand indefinitely, is given on the Thailand Elite Ultimate Privilege web site.

 

 

Membership validity: 20 years

Membership fee: THB 2 million*

Transfer fee: 20% of prevailing rate*

Annual fee: THB 20,000

 

Ref: https://thaielite-express.com/elite-ultimate-privilege/

[Arkady]

The point of the Elite Card was surely to create something to sell at a high price to people who are ineligible for PR.  The distinction has always been that you cannot work with the Elite Card but must work to get PR. It looks like that distinction will be blurred if the government goes ahead to allow work permits to Elite card visa holders.  But PR will remain as something enshrined in the Immigration Act, while Elite will remain something that works around the Immigration Act.

[Bangel72]

On 9/9/2020 at 7:39 AM, Misty said:

If PR is held up for long periods of time, say 8 years, does the applicant need to remain employed during the entire period until PR is granted? 

From my experience no, stopping working and not having to leave the country between jobs was one of my main reasons for applying. My application went through during the same month my work permit ended and they gave me a 'PR application in process visa' basically a free visa for the 6 years it took them to complete my PR as long as I checked in every six months.

 

I did another job for two years shortly after that so I ended up with two visa's at the same time, that PR visa though came in really handy though when I finished that contract as they cancelled the work permit and work visa a week earlier than the appointment I had at the BOI so they were basically saying I should leave the country the same day, quick dash across town to chang wattana to get my other PR visa stamped again, no problem saved the day.

 

I do though add caution, I was lucky that I was on that second contract when I did the verbal interview as they do ask about your work and salary etc so if you can arrange to be working when the interview happens that's best.

 

The second level of caution is when you finally come to pick up your PR, in theory it has already been given but it can raise flags if you are not working when you pick it up, the fast track we can do your process in an hour rather than three days fee was more common when I did it, so I had to go that route or they basically would have kept the PR and expected me to leave the country that day. These days probably safer if you are working as they are not drinking as much tea as they used to. 

 

 

[Arkady]

15 minutes ago, Bangel72 said:

From my experience no, stopping working and not having to leave the country between jobs was one of my main reasons for applying. My application went through during the same month my work permit ended and they gave me a 'PR application in process visa' basically a free visa for the 6 years it took them to complete my PR as long as I checked in every six months.

 

I did another job for two years shortly after that so I ended up with two visa's at the same time, that PR visa though came in really handy though when I finished that contract as they cancelled the work permit and work visa a week earlier than the appointment I had at the BOI so they were basically saying I should leave the country the same day, quick dash across town to chang wattana to get my other PR visa stamped again, no problem saved the day.

 

I do though add caution, I was lucky that I was on that second contract when I did the verbal interview as they do ask about your work and salary etc so if you can arrange to be working when the interview happens that's best.

 

The second level of caution is when you finally come to pick up your PR, in theory it has already been given but it can raise flags if you are not working when you pick it up, the fast track we can do your process in an hour rather than three days fee was more common when I did it, so I had to go that route or they basically would have kept the PR and expected me to leave the country that day. These days probably safer if you are working as they are not drinking as much tea as they used to. 

 

 

 

I don't understand how you ended up with two visas when you started working again.  If you have the PR pending visa that needs to be endorsed every 6 months, surely you don't need to get a NON-B visa too to get a new WP. 

 

It seemed that there were a lot of people who picked up their PR docs after lengthy wait times who were retired or unemployed by then and the officers didn't bat an eyelid. Of course things can change.

[Misty]

3 hours ago, Bangel72 said:

From my experience no, stopping working and not having to leave the country between jobs was one of my main reasons for applying. My application went through during the same month my work permit ended and they gave me a 'PR application in process visa' basically a free visa for the 6 years it took them to complete my PR as long as I checked in every six months.

 

I did another job for two years shortly after that so I ended up with two visa's at the same time, that PR visa though came in really handy though when I finished that contract as they cancelled the work permit and work visa a week earlier than the appointment I had at the BOI so they were basically saying I should leave the country the same day, quick dash across town to chang wattana to get my other PR visa stamped again, no problem saved the day.

 

I do though add caution, I was lucky that I was on that second contract when I did the verbal interview as they do ask about your work and salary etc so if you can arrange to be working when the interview happens that's best.

 

The second level of caution is when you finally come to pick up your PR, in theory it has already been given but it can raise flags if you are not working when you pick it up, the fast track we can do your process in an hour rather than three days fee was more common when I did it, so I had to go that route or they basically would have kept the PR and expected me to leave the country that day. These days probably safer if you are working as they are not drinking as much tea as they used to. 

 

 

Thanks, Bangel76 that is very helpful.  I actually have no plans to stop working anytime soon.  Unfortunately, however, I can't predict what may happen in the future, especially if the consideration period is many years.

[Misty]

On 9/14/2020 at 2:43 PM, Dogmatix said:

There is an office that does police clearances at National Police HQ opposite Siam Square. It is right next door to the Special Branch office where you apply for citizenship. You enter through the entrance on Henri Dunant Road next to the police nursing college and walk past the display of Special Branch Harley Davidsons up to building 23 or 24, I think, and you will see the office on the ground floor on the left with a sign in English. I have never done but I believe it’s quite straightforward and not expensive.  

Thanks for this, Dogmatix. It seems we were misinformed that this was a requirement.  Apparently a local police clearance requirement is no longer needed, at least if you already have a home country police clearance.  We did get to tour National Police buildings 24, 6 and 7.  In the end the personnel in all buildings agreed the local police clearance wasn't needed since the FBI clearance was already issued.

[Misty]

Has anyone heard of going to a Thai police station to get a police report for a passport that was lost many years ago? For my PR application, I'm being advised that that I need all of my cancelled passports since I've been in Thailand. I have all of these but one - one that I had lost and replaced. I'm being told that the lost passport could be a problem for the PR application and so I should go to a Thai police station today to get a police report for something that happened 23 years ago.

 

Would a Thai police station issue such a report? Would it have any validity over such a long time period? If so, which police station - I'm not sure exactly where the passport went missing - so what police station would I go to? It seems like a very odd requirement.

 

For what it's worth, the cancelled replacement passport says clearly it was to replace the one that was lost. The business visa in the lost passport was transferred to the replacement passport, and I have copies of all my work permits including the one that was in effect during the period of the lost passport.

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, Misty said:

Has anyone heard of going to a Thai police station to get a police report for a passport that was lost many years ago? For my PR application, I'm being advised that that I need all of my cancelled passports since I've been in Thailand. I have all of these but one - one that I had lost and replaced. I'm being told that the lost passport could be a problem for the PR application and so I should go to a Thai police station today to get a police report for something that happened 23 years ago.

 

Would a Thai police station issue such a report? Would it have any validity over such a long time period? If so, which police station - I'm not sure exactly where the passport went missing - so what police station would I go to? It seems like a very odd requirement.

 

For what it's worth, the cancelled replacement passport says clearly it was to replace the one that was lost. The business visa in the lost passport was transferred to the replacement passport, and I have copies of all my work permits including the one that was in effect during the period of the lost passport.

I don't know about filing missing document reports for a document that went missing many years ago but the system for reporting missing documents is pretty straightforward.  You have to go the police station of the precinct where you lost the document or other item. It doesn't matter, if you don't know exactly where it was lost, you just have to say you lost it in that place to prevent them from refusing to make the report. Most police stations have at least one officer taking this reports all day long and there is a fee of 20 baht I think. They might be willing to take the report for something that was lost 23 years ago, if you explain the reason you need it.  Alternatively you can file a report that that you have lost the police report you made when you originally lost the passport, even if you didn't report it to Thai police.  

 

I once had to file a report that I had lost my car front license plate to get another one.  Of course I had no clue exactly when or where it had fallen off the car but, having some experience of filing missing document reports I was prepared for the questions.  I told them that exactly where I had lost it in their precinct and when they asked what time I answered without hesititation that it was at 4.17pm.  The policewoman seemed delighted with such unusual clarity and didn't seem to notice that I was taking the Mickey by giving her such an exact time for the moment of loss.  The only thing that seems to bother them is when they suspect that people, especially foreign tourists, are making false theft reports for insurance purposes. 

[Misty]

8 hours ago, Arkady said:

I don't know about filing missing document reports for a document that went missing many years ago but the system for reporting missing documents is pretty straightforward.  You have to go the police station of the precinct where you lost the document or other item. It doesn't matter, if you don't know exactly where it was lost, you just have to say you lost it in that place to prevent them from refusing to make the report. Most police stations have at least one officer taking this reports all day long and there is a fee of 20 baht I think. They might be willing to take the report for something that was lost 23 years ago, if you explain the reason you need it.  Alternatively you can file a report that that you have lost the police report you made when you originally lost the passport, even if you didn't report it to Thai police.  

 

I once had to file a report that I had lost my car front license plate to get another one.  Of course I had no clue exactly when or where it had fallen off the car but, having some experience of filing missing document reports I was prepared for the questions.  I told them that exactly where I had lost it in their precinct and when they asked what time I answered without hesititation that it was at 4.17pm.  The policewoman seemed delighted with such unusual clarity and didn't seem to notice that I was taking the Mickey by giving her such an exact time for the moment of loss.  The only thing that seems to bother them is when they suspect that people, especially foreign tourists, are making false theft reports for insurance purposes. 

Wow, an interesting system indeed. 4.17pm : )  . Since this was 23 years ago many of the details aren't clear to me.  I remember the general incident.  I know the month and year, only because of the replacement passport being issued as soon as I noticed it was missing. To the best of my knowledge, I had it at Don Muang airport returning from a business trip.  I noticed it missing when I arrived back to my home on Sukhumvit. 

 

This piece of paper (police report) seem to be a stand-in for the lost passport. But I'm still not clear why the cancelled passports are needed for PR applications in the first place. For example, producing all old cancelled passports does not appear on Immigration's list of required documents for PR application, as far as I can tell.

 

An alternative I'm proposing is to get (yet another) affidavit from my embassy.  My idea is the affidavit would state the details of the lost passport (number, dates), the number of the visa that was in it, the details of the replacement passport, and the fact that the visa was transferred to the new passport. This is the detail that I would guess Immigration my want. My guess is a police report would not contain this amount of detail.

 

 

 

 

[thedemon]

2 hours ago, Misty said:

An alternative I'm proposing is to get (yet another) affidavit from my embassy.  My idea is the affidavit would state the details of the lost passport (number, dates), the number of the visa that was in it, the details of the replacement passport, and the fact that the visa was transferred to the new passport. This is the detail that I would guess Immigration my want. My guess is a police report would not contain this amount of detail.

 

 

You can do that but then Immigration are going to want the embassy document translated to Thai and endorsed by the MFA.

 

I would go with the worthless police report. If one police station says no just go to the next one.

[jayboy]

A slight diversion from the topic if I may.

 

If a PR obtains a new passport, is it necessary to report immediately to the local police station or can it wait until when the usual 5 year reporting is due?

[thedemon]

6 minutes ago, jayboy said:

A slight diversion from the topic if I may.

 

If a PR obtains a new passport, is it necessary to report immediately to the local police station or can it wait until when the usual 5 year reporting is due?

 

No need. In my experience the police haven't wanted to see my passport even when doing the 5 year renewal.

 

Actually I was under the impression that once PR is issued there is no requirement for the PR holder to even possess a passport.

[jayboy]

49 minutes ago, thedemon said:

 

No need. In my experience the police haven't wanted to see my passport even when doing the 5 year renewal.

 

Actually I was under the impression that once PR is issued there is no requirement for the PR holder to even possess a passport.

Thanks for that info.

 

As to your second sentence you are no doubt correct it isn't a formal PR requirement but it would IMO be rash not to have one from innumerable practical viewpoints.

 

In my case it's not an issue as I have to travel overseas.

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, Misty said:

Wow, an interesting system indeed. 4.17pm : )  . Since this was 23 years ago many of the details aren't clear to me.  I remember the general incident.  I know the month and year, only because of the replacement passport being issued as soon as I noticed it was missing. To the best of my knowledge, I had it at Don Muang airport returning from a business trip.  I noticed it missing when I arrived back to my home on Sukhumvit. 

 

This piece of paper (police report) seem to be a stand-in for the lost passport. But I'm still not clear why the cancelled passports are needed for PR applications in the first place. For example, producing all old cancelled passports does not appear on Immigration's list of required documents for PR application, as far as I can tell.

 

An alternative I'm proposing is to get (yet another) affidavit from my embassy.  My idea is the affidavit would state the details of the lost passport (number, dates), the number of the visa that was in it, the details of the replacement passport, and the fact that the visa was transferred to the new passport. This is the detail that I would guess Immigration my want. My guess is a police report would not contain this amount of detail.

 I would try the police first, as they are much easier to deal with than embassies, don't require appointments and their reports don't require translation and notarisation. Also their fee is only 20 baht compared to the thousands you would have to pay for an embassy document including translation and notarisation. You don't want to have to go out to the police station near Don Muang.  So you just tell the police the passport was lost near your home or in some police precinct that is convenient for you to visit. You just say you got into a taxi from your home to go to a bank in the same police precinct and when you got to the bank you found you didn't have your passport which must have dropped out of your bag on the floor of the taxi or on to the ground as you got out. You were talking on the phone at that time, so not paying enough attention to your possessions.  You didn't have a note of the taxi number and no one ever contacted you to return it.  If they say they can't accept a report 23 years after the event, you tell them you did make a report of the loss to police at the time but only last month lost that report in your home.  You would now like to report the loss of the original police report.  A report specifying the details of the lost police report might be enough for Immigration. Police stations only recently computerised the system for filing lost item reports and there is no way they are going check through the ledgers from 23 years ago, if they still exist. They do not make you take a polygraph test and couldn't care less what documents are reported lost. They just file the reports mechanically.

 

I am surprised they want passports from that long ago.  When I applied I also had a lost passport only 15 years before my application. It was stolen when I was on an overnight bus from Phuket. The bus had a pretty hostess who served drugged Coca Cola to passengers to allow her accomplice to rifle through their bags and obviously he left the bus at a pee pee stop before reaching Bangkok. I got off the bus feeling groggy from the coke and got into a taxi without noticing that the <deleted> had whipped my passport and SLR camera plus credit cards that were used within hours in crooked Bangkok jewellery shops.  Of course I got a police report in order to get an emergency passport to get home, as I had not yet moved to Bkk then, but didn't still have a copy of the report.  Immigration didn't ask for that passport or a police report.  As far as I can remember, they wanted passports covering the time I had been living in Thailand.  Of course, if you were already living in Thailand at the time you lost the passport, that might be the reason.

 

 

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, thedemon said:

 

No need. In my experience the police haven't wanted to see my passport even when doing the 5 year renewal.

 

Actually I was under the impression that once PR is issued there is no requirement for the PR holder to even possess a passport.

 

I was told by Immigration that my red book would be my equivalent to a passport or ID card and I should carry it everywhere and there would be no need to carry a passport for anything any more except for leaving the country. 555.  At least that was the theory and may have been true many decades earlier when the red books were introduced to control the Chinese population.

[Michael Hare]

I am a bit surprised by the authorities wanting one's old cancelled passports for the time one has been living in Thailand. I could produce some photocopies but not the actual cancelled passports with the corners cut off. When I did my PR, the PR section was very particular about my paying Thai tax. I had to produce tax documents right up until the final month in which I got my PR. 

[Arkady]

18 minutes ago, Michael Hare said:

I am a bit surprised by the authorities wanting one's old cancelled passports for the time one has been living in Thailand. I could produce some photocopies but not the actual cancelled passports with the corners cut off. When I did my PR, the PR section was very particular about my paying Thai tax. I had to produce tax documents right up until the final month in which I got my PR. 

 

It's a typical Thai bureaucracy situation. The basic law law lacks detail and is left to bureaucrats to interpret. Each time a new person takes charge at Immigration and at the  Interior Ministry section that handles applications after initial processing by Immigration they want to put their own stamp on it and re-interpret things. Since the constituents are foreigners with no right to complain, they get away with whatever they like.

[thedemon]

It is worth noting that some countries don't return cancelled passports after issuing a replacement and the PR staff at CW must know that. Applicants from those countries wouldn't be able to produce any of their old passports.

[jayboy]

23 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

I was told by Immigration that my red book would be my equivalent to a passport or ID card and I should carry it everywhere

That would be an interesting challenge.I keep mine in a safe apart for its outing every five years  - and it still threatens to disintegrate every time it's opened.

[Misty]

2 hours ago, thedemon said:

It is worth noting that some countries don't return cancelled passports after issuing a replacement and the PR staff at CW must know that. Applicants from those countries wouldn't be able to produce any of their old passports.

I'll find out why we're being asked for all of our old cancelled passports.  At first I thought it was just to help to verify old visas and double check them against the photocopies I have of old work permits.  But I can verify this information already, without this one cancelled passport.  So there has to be some other reason. 

 

Since only 3 years work history is required, it seems especially odd to me there's interest in a lost passport from 23 years ago.

[Misty]

On 9/27/2020 at 9:58 AM, thedemon said:

It is worth noting that some countries don't return cancelled passports after issuing a replacement and the PR staff at CW must know that. Applicants from those countries wouldn't be able to produce any of their old passports.

Here's what I've learned so far:

 

1) The cancelled passports are being used to double check details on all the NonImmB visas/visa extensions I've had over the years I've been in Thailand. In the case of some countries not returning cancelled passports, my guess is photocopies with an embassy affidavit stating the embassy doesn't return cancelled passports would also do the trick.

 

2) Although the "lost passport" police report that Arkady suggests does seem like the easier and cheaper option, apparently all of the information Immigration wants to see won't be included in that report.  So it looks like I'll need to go the more expensive route and get an embassy affidavit stating "I lost passport # on date 1997, it was replace by passport # on date 1997, my NonImmB was transferred to new passport as listed on pages in new passport, etc etc"

[onthemoon]

9 minutes ago, Misty said:

Here's what I've learned so far:

 

1) The cancelled passports are being used to double check details on all the NonImmB visas/visa extensions I've had over the years I've been in Thailand. In the case of some countries not returning cancelled passports, my guess is photocopies with an embassy affidavit stating the embassy doesn't return cancelled passports would also do the trick.

 

2) Although the "lost passport" police report that Arkady suggests does seem like the easier and cheaper option, apparently all of the information Immigration wants to see won't be included in that report.  So it looks like I'll need to go the more expensive route and get an embassy affidavit stating "I lost passport # on date 1997, it was replace by passport # on date 1997, my NonImmB was transferred to new passport as listed on pages in new passport, etc etc"

I wonder how far back the Immigration database goes. Basically, they would only need your old passport number and can look up everything (visas, exits, entries) in the system.

[Misty]

6 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

I wonder how far back the Immigration database goes. Basically, they would only need your old passport number and can look up everything (visas, exits, entries) in the system.

That would make sense. I am a bit baffled by how far back this application is going. 

 

Spitballing here, but the extra requirements could be due to the long time frames involved.  The single tourist visa I've had was in 1993, after that it was all NonImmB/work permit. Did all those stacks of annual paperwork over the years get scanned and stored somewhere?  And if they did, did they maintain the technology to read the older records?  Maybe the accessible digital database just doesn't go back that far.

[onthemoon]

18 minutes ago, Misty said:

That would make sense. I am a bit baffled by how far back this application is going. 

 

Spitballing here, but the extra requirements could be due to the long time frames involved.  The single tourist visa I've had was in 1993, after that it was all NonImmB/work permit. Did all those stacks of annual paperwork over the years get scanned and stored somewhere?  And if they did, did they maintain the technology to read the older records?  Maybe the accessible digital database just doesn't go back that far.

It's just a guess, but I don't think they scanned any documents issued before the system went live. I do know that when they access the system now, all this data shows on the screen. I don't know when this started, though. 

[mortenaa]

On 9/25/2020 at 9:57 AM, Bangel72 said:

From my experience no, stopping working and not having to leave the country between jobs was one of my main reasons for applying. My application went through during the same month my work permit ended and they gave me a 'PR application in process visa' basically a free visa for the 6 years it took them to complete my PR as long as I checked in every six months.

 

I did another job for two years shortly after that so I ended up with two visa's at the same time, that PR visa though came in really handy though when I finished that contract as they cancelled the work permit and work visa a week earlier than the appointment I had at the BOI so they were basically saying I should leave the country the same day, quick dash across town to chang wattana to get my other PR visa stamped again, no problem saved the day.

 

I do though add caution, I was lucky that I was on that second contract when I did the verbal interview as they do ask about your work and salary etc so if you can arrange to be working when the interview happens that's best.

 

The second level of caution is when you finally come to pick up your PR, in theory it has already been given but it can raise flags if you are not working when you pick it up, the fast track we can do your process in an hour rather than three days fee was more common when I did it, so I had to go that route or they basically would have kept the PR and expected me to leave the country that day. These days probably safer if you are working as they are not drinking as much tea as they used to. 

 

 

They had stopped issuing them when I applied in 2016. I had a problem with my extension, because some employees of mine finished their contract. So I was forced to fly to KL to get a new NON-B. Came back, and was granted PR a week or two later. 

[Arkady]

12 hours ago, onthemoon said:

It's just a guess, but I don't think they scanned any documents issued before the system went live. I do know that when they access the system now, all this data shows on the screen. I don't know when this started, though. 

You may be right but when I had to amend the details in residence book and alien book at CW, in 2010, they were able to dig out copies of the documents provided to apply for them 13 years earlier without about 20 minutes.  I can't say for sure they had been scanned but it is possible.  District offices have certainly scanned old documents.  When I had to get the details of my original tabien baan application from 1997, the officer showed me all the scanned documents relating to the application on the computer screen. However, I can see less reason for Immigration to want to maintain digital archives of old NON-B visa records, the vast majority of which will never be needed.

[onthemoon]

8 hours ago, Arkady said:

You may be right but when I had to amend the details in residence book and alien book at CW, in 2010, they were able to dig out copies of the documents provided to apply for them 13 years earlier without about 20 minutes.  I can't say for sure they had been scanned but it is possible.  District offices have certainly scanned old documents.  When I had to get the details of my original tabien baan application from 1997, the officer showed me all the scanned documents relating to the application on the computer screen. However, I can see less reason for Immigration to want to maintain digital archives of old NON-B visa records, the vast majority of which will never be needed.

Interesting to know that they did scan documents. However, nowadays that won't be necessary any more. In fact, no rubber stamp in the passport is necessary any more. When we (PR holders) could use the auto-channel at Suvarnabhumi, we did not get any stamps at all upon exit and re-entry, it was only in the computer system.

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, onthemoon said:

Interesting to know that they did scan documents. However, nowadays that won't be necessary any more. In fact, no rubber stamp in the passport is necessary any more. When we (PR holders) could use the auto-channel at Suvarnabhumi, we did not get any stamps at all upon exit and re-entry, it was only in the computer system.

I'm not up to date with using the 'auto-channel' at the airports and, not surprising, this means that the 'system' refers to the data in the immigration database on each person re exit/re-entry approval dates.

 

My assumption is that getting new exit/re-entry stamps still requires a personal visit to an immigration office. Is that correct?