Gaza school strike 'criminal' - UN

[Ulysses G.]

Someone has to take the first step; if all they want is peace, why won't Israel?

They have "taken the first step" over and over again. They have agreed to peace treaties proposed by others or proposed their own. It has been the Arabs who have always said NO.

[mania]

Sure, talks can start when they stop shooting rockets and better yet agree to recognize Israel and disarm.

Chicken or the egg?

Perhaps one step further back & stop what causes them to shoot the rockets?

What if Israel stopped their occupation of lands they should not be building illegal settlements on?

What if they did not herd a race of people into a corner & decide what they can & cannot have delivered?

What if Israel wanting recognition allowed Palestine the same recognition?

Instead of throwing a fit when the UN did so?

In the end sadly Palestine does play into Israels hand.

They respond to land grabs & herding of their people & in return

Israel uses that as justification to extinguish more of them & to expand Israel ever

further into their lands.

As for disarming... it would be odd for a country like Israel to ask anyone to disarm given their

armed to the teeth status & refusal to be part of any non-nuclear proliferation treaties/inspections etc.

I am not saying Israel does not have the right to arms to defend themselves.

I am saying it is not their right to remove the same right from others.

[7by7]

I doubt whether the Times of Israel can be considered an independent source; however if Hamas are storing weapons in UN schools than, as the article linked to says,

“We condemn the group or groups who endangered civilians by placing these munitions in our school,” said UNRWA Spokesperson, Chris Gunness. “This is yet another flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises. We call on all the warring parties to respect the inviolability of UN property.”

If the IDF suspect Hamas are storing weapons in UNWA refuges they should tell the UNWA who will take the necessary action.

Not bomb occupied schools after weapons have been discovered in vacant ones!

[7by7]

Someone has to take the first step; if all they want is peace, why won't Israel?

They have "taken the first step" over and over again. They have agreed to peace treaties proposed by others or proposed their own. It has been the Arabs who have always said NO.

Yes, of course Israel has agreed peace treaties with the Palestinians; peace treaties in which Israel concedes nothing and wants the Palestinians to concede everything.

Talks without any preconditions; why wont Israel agree to that?

[Ulysses G.]

You show how little you know. There have been some very generous treaties offering and the Palestinians - yet again - said NO.

[7by7]

You show how little you know. There have been some very generous treaties offering and the Palestinians - yet again - said NO.

Then educate me.

Reputable links to full details of these 'generous' treaties and their terms, please.

Who knows, providing them may convince me you are right!

[Mossfinn]

I have little understanding of your post, it just doesn't make much sense.

But wars are fought over land, water and power, and often has nothing to do with religion. If someone even thinks WW2 was fought over the Jews, the Irish war over religion, the break up of the former Soviet Union, the Ukraine situation, and as this is an Israeli/Palestine thread, if it was solely about religion, it would have been sorted a long time ago.

This was at Jay Satas post, I just didn't understand it.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Mossfinn

[cheeryble]

In the end sadly Palestine does play into Israels hand.

They respond to land grabs & herding of their people & in return

Israel uses that as justification to extinguish more of them & to expand Israel ever

further into their .

Agree with much of what you say Mania

A big problem is the Prison Camp Gaza is ignored UNTIL Hamas start lobbing pipe bombs willy nilly and a few people get killled.

This will tend to make the militant end of Hamas use that strategy.....and they do.

Then Israel kills a couple thousand people including kids.

Then Ulysses says they deserve it.

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[Kalebiran]

Someone has to take the first step; if all they want is peace, why won't Israel?

They have "taken the first step" over and over again. They have agreed to peace treaties proposed by others or proposed their own. It has been the Arabs who have always said NO.

Not true.You so out of touch and not very well read poster. When Sharon became PM in 2002 the extreme right in Israel had control and the idea to give back stolen land to Palestine was over, indeed the policy of building settlements on the west bank was restarted. Israel's attitude of "we won the war in 1967 and we decide what is ours" has continued since. Edited August 9, 2014 by Kalebiran

[MJP]

That said ... I never understand the dogma of a someone who is obsessed with a religion, be that Muslin, Jewish or other.

.

I am so glad I am an Athiest, organised religions have caused so much bloodshed over human history.... all over a fairy tale man in the sky

Political ideologies, borders and religion are the axis of evil. Chuck greed in there and a few sociopaths and off we go!

[Ulysses G.]

You show how little you know. There have been some very generous treaties offering and the Palestinians - yet again - said NO.

Then educate me.

One of many suggested deals:

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak proposed withdrawing from 97 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip in 2000. He also agreed to get rid of 63 settlements. Israel said it would give up territory in the Negev that would increase the size of Gaza by about a third. He also OKed East Jerusalem, Arab neighborhoods becoming the capital of the new state - even though Israel always said that giving up any of Jerusalem was out of the question.

The Palestinians could maintain control over their holy places and have religious sovereignty over the Temple Mount. His proposal also addressed the Palestinian refugee issue. It guaranteed them the right of return and compensation from a $30 billion fund.

If the Palestinians were not happy with any of the Israeli proposal, they could have offered a counterproposal. They never bothered.

[dr_lucas]

You show how little you know. There have been some very generous treaties offering and the Palestinians - yet again - said NO.

Then educate me.

One of many suggested deals:

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak proposed withdrawing from 97 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip in 2000. He also agreed to get rid of 63 settlements. Israel said it would give up territory in the Negev that would increase the size of Gaza by about a third. He also OKed East Jerusalem, Arab neighborhoods becoming the capital of the new state - even though Israel always said that giving up any of Jerusalem was out of the question.

The Palestinians could maintain control over their holy places and have religious sovereignty over the Temple Mount. His proposal also addressed the Palestinian refugee issue. It guaranteed them the right of return and compensation from a $30 billion fund.

If the Palestinians were not happy with any of the Israeli proposal, they could have offered a counterproposal. They never bothered.

Correct, UG.

Another example. PM Ehud Olmert proposed this peace plan in 2009: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/haaretz-exclusive-olmert-s-plan-for-peace-with-the-palestinians-1.1970

[Kalebiran]

lies . These links prove nothing except others with same warped unbalanced views. Netanhanyu and the IDF have failed and only succeeded in uniting palestinians to hate their massacring neighbours even more and former friends of Israel have seen it for what it really is. http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/netanyahus-four-key-errors-1106170178. Netanyahu assumed the Gaza offensive would break Hamas militarily and turn the people against them, as well as sabotage Palestine unity and shore up regional alliances – it achieved none of the above

Edited August 9, 2014 by Kalebiran

[OZEMADE]

lies . These links prove nothing except others with same warped unbalanced views. Netanhanyu and the IDF have failed and only succeeded in uniting palestinians to hate their massacring neighbours even more and former friends of Israel have seen it for what it really is. http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/netanyahus-four-key-errors-1106170178. Netanyahu assumed the Gaza offensive would break Hamas militarily and turn the people against them, as well as sabotage Palestine unity and shore up regional alliances – it achieved none of the above

I think Palestine are really going to suffer now because of the talks breaking down and no compromise in sight. Rockets being fired by Hamas with little result except stirring up a hornets nest.

If you think it was bad before,Israel will now blow Gaza to pieces and it has now started.

[Pattszero]

You show how little you know. There have been some very generous treaties offering and the Palestinians - yet again - said NO.

Then educate me.

One of many suggested deals:

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak proposed withdrawing from 97 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip in 2000. He also agreed to get rid of 63 settlements. Israel said it would give up territory in the Negev that would increase the size of Gaza by about a third. He also OKed East Jerusalem, Arab neighborhoods becoming the capital of the new state - even though Israel always said that giving up any of Jerusalem was out of the question.

The Palestinians could maintain control over their holy places and have religious sovereignty over the Temple Mount. His proposal also addressed the Palestinian refugee issue. It guaranteed them the right of return and compensation from a $30 billion fund.

If the Palestinians were not happy with any of the Israeli proposal, they could have offered a counterproposal. They never bothered.

Correct, UG.

Another example. PM Ehud Olmert proposed this peace plan in 2009: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/haaretz-exclusive-olmert-s-plan-for-peace-with-the-palestinians-1.1970

Look at that map again with objective eyes then ask yourself - if you were Palestinian - would you have accepted it?

[7by7]

You show how little you know. There have been some very generous treaties offering and the Palestinians - yet again - said NO.

The two proposals offered as evidence are very far from 'some very generous treaties.'

Unless certain posters aren't using English the way most of us understand it!

Why wont Israel suggest talks without any preconditions; that may stir Hamas' interest.

[Donnie Brasco]

When you use women and children as human shields, civilians die. No more criminal than Friendly Fire. Stuff happens. Get over it. Israel has the right to defend itself against Hamas, a terrorist organization. OK, you can attack me now.

Actually, your cliche-ridden pro-Israel mantra will disgust and then turn most of humanity against you and your propaganda den.

Leon Uris was a hack.

It's over.

Have a lovely sunset.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[dr_lucas]

You show how little you know. There have been some very generous treaties offering and the Palestinians - yet again - said NO.

The two proposals offered as evidence are very far from 'some very generous treaties.'

Unless certain posters aren't using English the way most of us understand it!

Why wont Israel suggest talks without any preconditions; that may stir Hamas' interest.

Yeah, I wouldn't call them very generous either, but knowing the terrain well, IMHO they are very fair. Both terms by the way, are a matter of subjective opinion.

Which preconditions did Israel or Hamas demand?

[Ulysses G.]

You show how little you know. There have been some very generous treaties offering and the Palestinians - yet again - said NO.

The two proposals offered as evidence are very far from 'some very generous treaties.'

Well, not compared to pushing Israel into the sea and taking the whole thing, which is all that the Palestinians really seem to be interested in.

Have you ever heard the saying, Beggars can't be choosers?

[metisdead]

An off topic post about Bradford has been removed.

[Choctastic]

Well, not compared to pushing Israel into the sea and taking the whole thing, which is all that the Palestinians really seem to be interested in.

Have you ever heard the saying, Beggars can't be choosers?

I think the Palestinians are really interested in being released from the concentration camp Israel has herded them into. Rather sick comment about beggars. They are all reduced to beggars now Israel has bombed them back to the Stone Age. How many calories are they allowed this time?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

[Ulysses G.]

That "concentration camp" was the responsibility of Hamas and those that elected them. There were few restrictions in 2006, but Hamas spent many years and millions of dollars of "aid" money turning Gaza into a massive, terrorist military base, bursting with weapons, to make never ending war on Israel.

Apologists for Hamas attribute the bloodlust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling diehard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.
And there was no blockade. On the contrary. Israel wanted this new Palestinian state to succeed.

http://www.tauntongazette.com/article/20140718/Opinion/140716345

Edited August 10, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[coma]

Well done IDF. Now they are blowing up mosques. I think that is against the Geneva convention as well. Talk about poking at the bee hive.

You need a new Palestinian thesaurus.

Mosque - Ammunition storage

Hospital - Ammunition storage

UN school - Ammunition storage

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[dexterm]

That "concentration camp" was the responsibility of Hamas and those that elected them. There were few restrictions in 2006, but Hamas spent many years and millions of dollars of "aid" money turning Gaza into a massive, terrorist military base, bursting with weapons, to make never ending war on Israel.

Apologists for Hamas attribute the bloodlust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling diehard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.

And there was no blockade. On the contrary. Israel wanted this new Palestinian state to succeed.

http://www.tauntongazette.com/article/20140718/Opinion/140716345

When you control an area's land, sea, and air borders, have tanks stationed 30 minutes away ready to invade..you are by international law blockading and occupying that area, and have a duty of care over its inhabitants, not a licence to kill them

[Ulysses G.]

That "concentration camp" was the responsibility of Hamas and those that elected them. There were few restrictions in 2006, but Hamas spent many years and millions of dollars of "aid" money turning Gaza into a massive, terrorist military base, bursting with weapons, to make never ending war on Israel.

Apologists for Hamas attribute the bloodlust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling diehard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.

And there was no blockade. On the contrary. Israel wanted this new Palestinian state to succeed.

http://www.tauntongazette.com/article/20140718/Opinion/140716345

When you control an area's land, sea, and air borders, have tanks stationed 30 minutes away ready to invade..you are by international law blockading and occupying that area, and have a duty of care over its inhabitants, not a licence to kill them

AGAIN. The actions of the Palestinians are responsible for the restrictions.

And how did the Gaza Palestinians react to being granted by the Israelis what no previous ruler, neither Egyptian, nor British, nor Turkish, had ever given them — an independent territory? First, they demolished the greenhouses. Then they elected Hamas. Then, instead of building a state with its attendant political and economic institutions, they spent the better part of a decade turning Gaza into a massive military base, brimming with terror weapons, to make ceaseless war on Israel.

Where are the roads and rail, the industry and infrastructure of the new Palestinian state? Nowhere. Instead, they built mile upon mile of underground tunnels to hide their weapons and, when the going gets tough, their military commanders. They spent millions importing and producing rockets, launchers, mortars, small arms, even drones. They deliberately placed them in schools, hospitals, mosques and private homes to better expose their own civilians. And from which they fire rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

http://www.tauntongazette.com/article/20140718/Opinion/140716345

[dexterm]

That "concentration camp" was the responsibility of Hamas and those that elected them. There were few restrictions in 2006, but Hamas spent many years and millions of dollars of "aid" money turning Gaza into a massive, terrorist military base, bursting with weapons, to make never ending war on Israel.

Apologists for Hamas attribute the bloodlust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling diehard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.

And there was no blockade. On the contrary. Israel wanted this new Palestinian state to succeed.

http://www.tauntongazette.com/article/20140718/Opinion/140716345

When you control an area's land, sea, and air borders, have tanks stationed 30 minutes away ready to invade..you are by international law blockading and occupying that area, and have a duty of care over its inhabitants, not a licence to kill them

AGAIN. The actions of the Palestinians are responsible for the restrictions.

And how did the Gaza Palestinians react to being granted by the Israelis what no previous ruler, neither Egyptian, nor British, nor Turkish, had ever given them — an independent territory? First, they demolished the greenhouses. Then they elected Hamas. Then, instead of building a state with its attendant political and economic institutions, they spent the better part of a decade turning Gaza into a massive military base, brimming with terror weapons, to make ceaseless war on Israel.

Where are the roads and rail, the industry and infrastructure of the new Palestinian state? Nowhere. Instead, they built mile upon mile of underground tunnels to hide their weapons and, when the going gets tough, their military commanders. They spent millions importing and producing rockets, launchers, mortars, small arms, even drones. They deliberately placed them in schools, hospitals, mosques and private homes to better expose their own civilians. And from which they fire rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

http://www.tauntongazette.com/article/20140718/Opinion/140716345

Gaza is not an independent territory. Israel sees to that.

If Israel reached a just peace agreement with its neighbors, perhaps both could prosper and Israelis need not live forever looking over their shoulders.

Israel has always held all the cards...it is clearly the dominant military force.

Here is a fascinating account of how John Kerry's valiant peace effort broke down with the start of this present conflict. It is very even handed..Pals and Israelis both emerge with some egg on their faces.

highly recommended. It reads like a thriller, and shows you just how close as in Camp David the peace negotiations reached.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died

Peres and Abu Mazen are getting old now. We just have to wait for bolder serious peace loving politicians to emerge.

Shalom

[mania]

Look at that map again with objective eyes then ask yourself - if you were Palestinian - would you have accepted it?

When I look at this map I need not wonder as to who is doing the "pushing into the sea" phrase so often cited here.

[Ulysses G.]

That is because that map in a FAKE - as has been pointed out over and over again on here. The Palestinian Arabs NEVER controlled that territory.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

That "concentration camp" was the responsibility of Hamas and those that elected them. There were few restrictions in 2006, but Hamas spent many years and millions of dollars of "aid" money turning Gaza into a massive, terrorist military base, bursting with weapons, to make never ending war on Israel.

Apologists for Hamas attribute the bloodlust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling diehard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.

And there was no blockade. On the contrary. Israel wanted this new Palestinian state to succeed.

http://www.tauntongazette.com/article/20140718/Opinion/140716345

When you control an area's land, sea, and air borders, have tanks stationed 30 minutes away ready to invade..you are by international law blockading and occupying that area, and have a duty of care over its inhabitants, not a licence to kill them

AGAIN. The actions of the Palestinians are responsible for the restrictions.

And how did the Gaza Palestinians react to being granted by the Israelis what no previous ruler, neither Egyptian, nor British, nor Turkish, had ever given them — an independent territory? First, they demolished the greenhouses. Then they elected Hamas. Then, instead of building a state with its attendant political and economic institutions, they spent the better part of a decade turning Gaza into a massive military base, brimming with terror weapons, to make ceaseless war on Israel.

Where are the roads and rail, the industry and infrastructure of the new Palestinian state? Nowhere. Instead, they built mile upon mile of underground tunnels to hide their weapons and, when the going gets tough, their military commanders. They spent millions importing and producing rockets, launchers, mortars, small arms, even drones. They deliberately placed them in schools, hospitals, mosques and private homes to better expose their own civilians. And from which they fire rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

http://www.tauntongazette.com/article/20140718/Opinion/140716345

Gaza is not an independent territory. Israel sees to that.

What do the Palestinians expect? There was no blockade until they turned Gaza into an armed camp.

[dexterm]

That is because that map in a FAKE - as has been pointed out over and over again on here. The Palestinian Arabs NEVER controlled that territory.

Ah, the usual UG hasbara tactic again...deny, deflect, denigrate.

When will Israel define its own borders? 1947, 1967, Med to Jordan, Med to Euphrates? Manage the conflict while the Zionists grab more land... and inherit more Palestinian inhabitants...the demographic Trojan Horse.

Bring it on Bibi.