US senators urge arms for Ukraine

[webfact]

Ukraine crisis: US senators urge arms 'to fight Russia'

WASHINGTON: -- Leading American senators have called for the US to send weapons to help Ukraine fight what they say is "a Russian invasion".

Robert Menendez, head of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said Russia's President Vladimir Putin must face a cost for his "aggression".

Senator John McCain said: "This is not an incursion. This is an invasion."

Earlier, Mr Putin called for talks to discuss the matter of "statehood" for eastern Ukraine.

The conflict in eastern Ukraine erupted in April following Russia's annexation of Ukraine's southern Crimea peninsula a month before. Some 2,600 people have died since April.

Pro-Russian separatists have been gaining ground on Ukrainian forces in recent days, in both the Luhansk and Donetsk regions, and further south around the port of Mariupol.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29007631


-- BBC 2014-09-01

[hard124get]

John McCain has been photographed with terrorists in Syria. He urged us to arm them to fight Assad, now it turns out they were ISIS. Mind your own business USA. Russia has invaded no one. You have invaded over 50 countries since WWII.

[Credo]

Russia has invaded no one? Really?

[lovetotravel]

John McCain has been photographed with terrorists in Syria. He urged us to arm them to fight Assad, now it turns out they were ISIS. Mind your own business USA. Russia has invaded no one. You have invaded over 50 countries since WWII.

Russia has troops and equipment inside Ukraine and has been firing shells across the border for some time. Plus, ask the citizens of Crimea who their new boss is. Use to be Kiev. It's now Moscow. I'd call that an invasion.

With that being said, I hope the US stays out of this. It's a European problem. Not a US problem.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/28/6079967/nato-satellite-images-show-russian-forces-in-ukraine

NATO is releasing satellite imagery today that it says depicts Russian troops engaging in military operations within Ukraine. Russia has slowly been encroaching on Ukraine since earlier this year, and its actions are increasingly beginning to look like an invasion — even if no one is willing to say it. "Over the past two weeks we have noted a significant escalation in both the level and sophistication of Russia’s military interference in Ukraine," brigadier general Nico Tak, of NATO's crisis center, says in a statement. "The satellite images released today provide additional evidence that Russian combat soldiers, equipped with sophisticated heavy weaponry, are operating inside Ukraine’s sovereign territory."

Tak says that NATO has seen Russia giving large quantities of "advanced weapons," such as tanks and air defense systems, to separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine, and he calls the situation "increasingly grave." NATO believes that the images show that Russia is attempting to destabilize Ukraine by supplying the separatists and extending the length of the conflict they've been in. Obama, too, agrees that these images show that Russia is behind the violence. "The new images of soldiers inside Ukraine make that plain," he said at a press conference this afternoon.

[submaniac]

I would support the idea of supplying arms to Ukraine. Boots on the ground is another thing, and I don't think that the senate is going to stomach the idea of sending soldiers abroad especially with elections coming in November. Between Russia and the Ukraine, and Isis in Syria/Iraq, we are more so than normal on the road to World War III.

[carstenp]

I would support the idea of supplying arms to Ukraine. Boots on the ground is another thing, and I don't think that the senate is going to stomach the idea of sending soldiers abroad especially with elections coming in November. Between Russia and the Ukraine, and Isis in Syria/Iraq, we are more so than normal on the road to World War III.

Agree. I was thinking absolute the same. If this Putin don't back off, it can be a new ww3. I know it's sounds like a drama queen. I don't think this man will stop before some people tell him to back off. Sometimes talking it's not working on a man like him

[Thaiready]

Putin is nothing but a bully.....if the US had a real President Putin would sit in a corner with his mouth shut

[Ulysses G.]

Putin is nothing but a bully.....if the US had a real President Putin would sit in a corner with his mouth shut

Exactly right. Putin can not help but take advantage of a weak president while he has the chance. This is the perfect opportunity to achieve his dream of restoring, what he sees as, Russian glory. I'm afraid that China, Iran and others of their ilk are going to do the same.

[hard124get]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

John McCain has been photographed with terrorists in Syria. He urged us to arm them to fight Assad, now it turns out they were ISIS. Mind your own business USA. Russia has invaded no one. You have invaded over 50 countries since WWII.

Russia has troops and equipment inside Ukraine and has been firing shells across the border for some time. Plus, ask the citizens of Crimea who their new boss is. Use to be Kiev. It's now Moscow. I'd call that an invasion.

With that being said, I hope the US stays out of this. It's a European problem. Not a US problem.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/28/6079967/nato-satellite-images-show-russian-forces-in-ukraine

NATO is releasing satellite imagery today that it says depicts Russian troops engaging in military operations within Ukraine. Russia has slowly been encroaching on Ukraine since earlier this year, and its actions are increasingly beginning to look like an invasion — even if no one is willing to say it. "Over the past two weeks we have noted a significant escalation in both the level and sophistication of Russia’s military interference in Ukraine," brigadier general Nico Tak, of NATO's crisis center, says in a statement. "The satellite images released today provide additional evidence that Russian combat soldiers, equipped with sophisticated heavy weaponry, are operating inside Ukraine’s sovereign territory."

Tak says that NATO has seen Russia giving large quantities of "advanced weapons," such as tanks and air defense systems, to separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine, and he calls the situation "increasingly grave." NATO believes that the images show that Russia is attempting to destabilize Ukraine by supplying the separatists and extending the length of the conflict they've been in. Obama, too, agrees that these images show that Russia is behind the violence. "The new images of soldiers inside Ukraine make that plain," he said at a press conference this afternoon.

Really? what was the date of the invasion into Crimea? how many died in this invasion? What is the difference between the Scotland referendum and the Crimean? there is a legal right for self-determination. Russians are reported to be in Ukraine every day. No credible proof. What happened to evidence of MH17 black boxes?

[Pinot]

McCain hasn't found a war yet that he couldn't support. Whatever McCain is for, I'm against.

[yaquinto]

John McCain has been photographed with terrorists in Syria. He urged us to arm them to fight Assad, now it turns out they were ISIS. Mind your own business USA. Russia has invaded no one. You have invaded over 50 countries since WWII.

Hmm...I went to work in a small country called Georgia in September 2008, I guess there was no invasion by Russia in August 2008? Get your facts straight. Crimea had the same impact as an invasion as Ukraine could not do anything without international support. You ask "what is the difference between Scotland and Crimea?" Well, I would guess that the Scottish vote won't be fixed and it is being done properly, not influence by the big bully (Russia) rigging the vote.

And, you don't believe there are Russians helping the Ukrainian separatists? That there are plenty of Russian troups in Ukraine? Plenty of evidence has been presented....

And, you bring MH17 into this? You have a doubt about who shot it down? You sound like 80-90% of the Russian population.

Edited September 1, 2014 by yaquinto

[lovetotravel]

Really? what was the date of the invasion into Crimea? how many died in this invasion? What is the difference between the Scotland referendum and the Crimean? there is a legal right for self-determination. Russians are reported to be in Ukraine every day. No credible proof. What happened to evidence of MH17 black boxes?

I would say the date of the invasion was February 27, 2014. When Russian troops entered the sovereign territory of Ukraine. Just a bit against international laws, something Putin obviously doesn't care about. And absolutely nothing like the current Scotland referendum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2014_Crimean_crisis

The 2014 Crimean crisis was a conflict unfolding in the region of Crimea, Ukraine that began in the aftermath of the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. President Viktor Yanukovych was deposed in the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. Russia sent in soldiers on February 27, 2014 and seized control of Crimea. Crimea held a referendum. According to Russian and Crimean sources 95% voted to reunite with Russia. The legitimacy of the referendum has been questioned by the international community on both legal and procedural grounds.

But an excellent question on the black box. I found this:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28808832

Wim van der Wegen from the Dutch Safety Board says they already have enough to prepare a preliminary report. "We are using the voice recorder, the black box flight data recorder, satellite images, information from air traffic control and photos taken by people who were able to visit crash site."

They expect to publish the preliminary report within two weeks. It will not attribute blame or liability.

[wwest5829]

John McCain has been photographed with terrorists in Syria. He urged us to arm them to fight Assad, now it turns out they were ISIS. Mind your own business USA. Russia has invaded no one. You have invaded over 50 countries since WWII.

I fully admit our faults and shortcomings, however, it is our business when we feel there is something we can do to help in some cases. The Russian people, who suffered greatly at the hands of the Nazis should know full well that U.S. Assistance in fighting the Germans was critical to their own efforts in WW II. Yes, too often we have invaded IMHO, on the other hand ......

[hard124get]

Really? what was the date of the invasion into Crimea? how many died in this invasion? What is the difference between the Scotland referendum and the Crimean? there is a legal right for self-determination. Russians are reported to be in Ukraine every day. No credible proof. What happened to evidence of MH17 black boxes?

I would say the date of the invasion was February 27, 2014. When Russian troops entered the sovereign territory of Ukraine. Just a bit against international laws, something Putin obviously doesn't care about. And absolutely nothing like the current Scotland referendum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2014_Crimean_crisis

The 2014 Crimean crisis was a conflict unfolding in the region of Crimea, Ukraine that began in the aftermath of the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. President Viktor Yanukovych was deposed in the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. Russia sent in soldiers on February 27, 2014 and seized control of Crimea. Crimea held a referendum. According to Russian and Crimean sources 95% voted to reunite with Russia. The legitimacy of the referendum has been questioned by the international community on both legal and procedural grounds.

But an excellent question on the black box. I found this:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28808832

Wim van der Wegen from the Dutch Safety Board says they already have enough to prepare a preliminary report. "We are using the voice recorder, the black box flight data recorder, satellite images, information from air traffic control and photos taken by people who were able to visit crash site."

They expect to publish the preliminary report within two weeks. It will not attribute blame or liability.

Within 2 weeks? that was dated on 17th. "Ukraine, the Netherlands, Australia and Belgium are conspiring to keep all information regarding the MH17 investigation classified, a leaked document reveals" http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/564116/20140827/mh17-investigation-update-conspiracy.htm#.VAQI1vmSxqU

[connda]

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."

- Smedley D. Butler: United States Marine Corps Major General and two time Medal of Honor recipient

[GentlemanJim]

I am just glad I now live with my family 7000 miles away.

[connda]

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."

- Smedley D. Butler: United States Marine Corps Major General and two time Medal of Honor recipient

Come on Wall Street dont' move slow

Why man this war's a dollar zone

there's money, good money to be made

by supplying the army with the tools of the trade

Just hope like crazy when they drop the bomb

They drop it on the Viet Cong

Well it's '1, 2, 3, what are we fighting for?

Don't ask me, I don't give a damn, next stop is Viet Nam.

And it's 5, 6, 7, open up the pearly gates.

Well there ain't no time to wonder why

Whoopeee, we're all going to die.

-Country Joe and the Fish: I Feel Like I'm Fixing To Die Rag

Almost 50 years later and there's nothing new to see here. Move along...

[canuckistaner]

People have forgotten the Cuban Missle Crisis. Soviets under Krushchev installed missiles pointed at the U.S. and targeting U.S cities. Kennedy reacted by mobilizing and giving the Soviets an ultimatum...withdraw the missiles or else....WW3. They withdrew the missiles. Cuba was an independent country but within the American sphere of influence and they had previously been welcomed in Cuba by the deposed Bautista. Castro was in control now, so America considered Cuba to be hostile and the Soviet missliles to be a provocation.

Ok, what has this got to do with Russia and Ukraine? Both were part of the Soviet Union. Ukraine may be independent now but it is within the Russian sphere of influence. U.S sending weapons to Ukraine would be the same as Soviets sending missiles to Cuba. This is a great way to start WW3. Ukraine is having a civil war between Russian residents and Ukrainians. The Russians want to unite with Russia and the Ukrainians want to stop them because they already lost the Crimea. Should Uncle Sam start interferring again..........in someone else's backyard dispute. Regardless of Putin being a bully or whatever.......what do you think the Bush Admin was, when they invaded Iraq under false pretenses..never discovered any WMDs. Oh yeah, they got rid of a dictator named Saddam, they got rid of Gaddafi also. So, now we have several failed states and wars breaking out everywhere...thanks to American intervention to help Freedom Fighters.......What a Joke! And people keep on saying that Russia and China are the main threats to world peace. I don't see them establishing military bases globally and helping to topple regimes from North Africa to the Middle East to Latin America. Russia feels surrounded by US and Nato. Heck the Warsaw Pact......the counter to Nato, no longer exists. So why is there still Nato, which was meant to counteract the Soviets and their Warsaw Pact. Both the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact no longer exist. Its just Russia, feeling threatened and surrounded by Nato and USA. The US also had an airbase in Uzbekistan, supposedly to help fight the war in Afganistan. Heck, right in Russia's backyard again! They are also trying to get friendly with Kazakhstan and other Central Asian Republics. Getting Ukraine to join Nato would be the same as getting Cuba or lets say for example, Mexico to join the now defunct Warsaw Pact. So, of course the Russians feel intimidated and surrounded by either the US military bases or proxies. Thats why they have been driven to make friends with China. So, the next war will be Russia and China against the US and Nato. End of the World, even if the US has military technological superiority. Together Russia and China have more nuclear bombs than the US. End of Europe, Asia, America and all major continents and countries.

Sending weapons to the Ukraine will be the start of a NEW COLD WAR, only this time, much worse.

Why is the US always arming other countries and factions..in the name of Democracy........ When Democracy itself is under fire in the US homeland. Its my way or the highway it seems, according to US foreign policy. Maybe they should focus on trade and business like China, which has already become the number one investor in Africa and is now heading to Latin America. While China does business and establishes trade links with practically every country on the planet, the US is busy trying to "promote freedom and democracy" globally...even to those places which don't really want it.....But then again are they really promoting freedom and democracy. They supported Saddam when he had his 8 year war with Iran. The CIA helped to kick out Mossadegh in favour of the Shah of Iran...since the former was planning on nationalizing the oil companies in Iran but the Shah was not in favour and so the US helped him to gain power. The US supported the dictator Noriega in Panama, until he started getting restless under his CIA masters, the US supported Bautista in Cuba before the Cuban Revolution..and he was a dictator and allowed the Mafia to control many businesses in Cuba, The US supported the assorted dictators of South Vietnam during the Vietnam War........they bombed Laos and Cambodia without declaring war........just collateral damage because of the bigger Vietnam War.....

I'm not a fan of Russia or China, but which countries are they bombing and toppling or supporting dictators. Ok, China supports N. Korea........so what. The US supported the Shah, Saddam, and Noriega...so what! All for political expediency!

All of these Big Powers play the same game but the US is doing the bombing and invading. The best way to start WW3 is to totally alienate Putin over the Ukraine.

Well, I do believe the world will eventually suffer another world war but I hope I'm long dead by then, because the next war will be nothing like the last two. It will be hell x 100! NO WINNERS AND ALL LOSERS! So much for Human Arrogance and Pride.

[Publicus]

Putin is nothing but a bully.....if the US had a real President Putin would sit in a corner with his mouth shut

Exactly right. Putin can not help but take advantage of a weak president while he has the chance. This is the perfect opportunity to achieve his dream of restoring, what he sees as, Russian glory. I'm afraid that China, Iran and others of their ilk are going to do the same.

Yeah and who knows, Canada might be next.

[pumpuy]

John McCain has been photographed with terrorists in Syria. He urged us to arm them to fight Assad, now it turns out they were ISIS. Mind your own business USA. Russia has invaded no one. You have invaded over 50 countries since WWII.

Looks like America wants War .

Don't they have enough wars yet ?

Why not let the people in the concerned country decide about their own future ?

If they do not want to be part of Ukrainia any more , let them go ...!

It is still better than killing innocent women and kids in a war !

Mad World , and most mad are the politicians who decide about our future .

Thailand is better now ... self sufficiant economy is the key to the door ...

What happens here in Europe and the rest of the world is turning from bad to worse ...

Incapable , selfish , arrogant and ignorant politicians .

Edited September 1, 2014 by pumpuy

[pumpuy]

Putin is nothing but a bully.....if the US had a real President Putin would sit in a corner with his mouth shut

Yeah ,

and you would be the one to teach him some manners , won't you ?

[connda]

I'd tend to agree with you. 60 years ago a military machine armed to the teeth didn't descend on Washington, DC, New York City, and other major cities in the US at the cost of literally millions of lives as a direct result of armed conflict, and indirectly by the effects of a Russian winter without adequate food and shelter. If they had, it would have had a bit more of a lasting impression on the psyches of the individuals making up our nation.

America had rationing and War Bond drives. Kid's in school in the US nowadays don't have a clue about history, nor current events that aren't propagandize to the hilt. Neither do their teachers, or probably their teachers before them. Dumbed down, fat, and happy. Perfect citizens.

Oh these kids today!

The end of civilization as you knew it.

Today's children are tomorrows leaders. Keep laughing Pubicus.

Edited September 1, 2014 by connda

[h90]

Ukraine politicians speak about extinguish Russians in Ukraine and banning Russian language.

Killing the Russian minority and USA expects that Russia is doing nothing?

USA should force Ukraine to hold peace talks. Guarantee minority rights to the Russians and an own state. +Ukraine declare itself neutral and promise not to put missile on their grounds and everyone is happy.

[rebeli]

John McCain has been photographed with terrorists in Syria. He urged us to arm them to fight Assad, now it turns out they were ISIS. Mind your own business USA. Russia has invaded no one. You have invaded over 50 countries since WWII.

Russia has troops and equipment inside Ukraine and has been firing shells across the border for some time. Plus, ask the citizens of Crimea who their new boss is. Use to be Kiev. It's now Moscow. I'd call that an invasion.

With that being said, I hope the US stays out of this. It's a European problem. Not a US problem.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/28/6079967/nato-satellite-images-show-russian-forces-in-ukraine

NATO is releasing satellite imagery today that it says depicts Russian troops engaging in military operations within Ukraine. Russia has slowly been encroaching on Ukraine since earlier this year, and its actions are increasingly beginning to look like an invasion — even if no one is willing to say it. "Over the past two weeks we have noted a significant escalation in both the level and sophistication of Russia’s military interference in Ukraine," brigadier general Nico Tak, of NATO's crisis center, says in a statement. "The satellite images released today provide additional evidence that Russian combat soldiers, equipped with sophisticated heavy weaponry, are operating inside Ukraine’s sovereign territory."

Tak says that NATO has seen Russia giving large quantities of "advanced weapons," such as tanks and air defense systems, to separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine, and he calls the situation "increasingly grave." NATO believes that the images show that Russia is attempting to destabilize Ukraine by supplying the separatists and extending the length of the conflict they've been in. Obama, too, agrees that these images show that Russia is behind the violence. "The new images of soldiers inside Ukraine make that plain," he said at a press conference this afternoon.

I still have not seen real images and everybody knows that the usa is extremely good with photoshop. They proved that with the wmd presentation about iraq.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and numerous replies have been deleted along with some inflammatory posts.

Please stay on the topic.

[Asiantravel]

New York Times calls for full-scale war in Ukraine

No question, this path involves enormous risks. Russia will throw its might into Ukraine. American and British special forces should be dispatched to plant the flag and protect the airports of Kiev and Odessa. But Mr. Putin may call our bluff: Russian forces might — in an echo of the 1999 Kosovo war — encircle them.

But if we are not prepared to take these risks, then we must force the Ukrainians to abandon their deadly delusion. It would be up to us to prevent Russia from slaughtering Ukrainian conscripts in vain.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/opinion/arm-ukraine-or-surrender.html?_r=1

[connda]

New York Times calls for full-scale war in Ukraine

No question, this path involves enormous risks. Russia will throw its might into Ukraine. American and British special forces should be dispatched to plant the flag and protect the airports of Kiev and Odessa. But Mr. Putin may call our bluff: Russian forces might — in an echo of the 1999 Kosovo war — encircle them.

But if we are not prepared to take these risks, then we must force the Ukrainians to abandon their deadly delusion. It would be up to us to prevent Russia from slaughtering Ukrainian conscripts in vain.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/opinion/arm-ukraine-or-surrender.html?_r=1

How many of you folks are going to volunteer your kids and grandkids (or yourselves) to join the military and fight for the glory of home and country? Pretty sanitary for the West nowadays -- no machine gun nests and trenches. Russia's not some backward ME/NA dictatorship. And they have nukes. The US beats the drums of war again and the mindless masses follow. Not everyone. Germany has reservation. How iconic. Follow the money.

Remember: The first causality of war is truth. Enjoy stoking the fires.

[metisdead]

A post using all caps has been removed. Turn off your Caps Lock button when posting.

[dutchisaan]

I don't know where some people are comming from, but there are a lot of war mongers on this form.

But these people are probebly the same you meet in a farang bar, claiming they are ex special forces.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Wat dee]

Ukraine politicians speak about extinguish Russians in Ukraine and banning Russian language.

Killing the Russian minority and USA expects that Russia is doing nothing?

USA should force Ukraine to hold peace talks. Guarantee minority rights to the Russians and an own state. +Ukraine declare itself neutral and promise not to put missile on their grounds and everyone is happy.

Should do the same thing with other area not that far away.