Scottish independence: Yes camp hails 'momentum'

[nontabury]

Sorry about dup replies, glitch in the system, hope mods can rectify.

[Richard W]

Does Scotland or the UK if it comes to that,really need this very expensive nuclear deterrent.

France has nukes. Despite increasing defence cooperation between Britain and France (we share a missile company!), there's not much sign of co-operation on nuclear weapons.

[NeverSure]

double post

Edited September 18, 2014 by NeverSure

[NeverSure]

So, what does Scotland do about defense if there's a yes vote? Hasn't it vowed to outlaw nukes? All of the UK's nukes are in Scotland, right?

There are four Vanguard-class submarines armed with trident ballistic missiles on lease from the United States housed at the Royal Navy's base on Scotland's West Coast. This makes The UK a member of "The Nuclear Club of Five" which means it's one of only five countries that has all of the nuclear capabilities. Returning the subs would end that.

Scotland would be out of NATO and NATO has shown little willingness to admit new members. How do they defend themselves against Russia, which might decide to drill for gas and oil in Scotland's territorial waters? What is their deterrent, and how do they go it alone without NATO?

How much are they willing to spend on defense, to defend their oil and gas? Do they think the rest of the world is 100% pacifist?

Just sayin'.

Does Scotland or the UK if it comes to that,really need this very expensive nuclear deterrent.
The UK is only a very small country, why are we trying to box above our weight?. Germany has a far larger population and is very prosperous, in spite of subsidising the shambolic EU. perhaps the reason is they don't spend anywhere as much on their arm forces.

The reason Germany doesn't need to spend much on military is because it is a major base for US forces and hardware. The US has 70,000 troops stationed in Germany, and God only knows how much hardware is there. There are 22 US military bases there.

The US is talking about drawing down some of that, which could put the German economy into a tailspin.

Edited September 18, 2014 by NeverSure

[nontabury]

There is some talk in the papers about a possible influx into England of Scots in the event of a "YES" result, I'm sure the Nationalist will say this is a scare story,and they could be right. Anyway lets assume they are correct, those that would move south would mostly be the more educated and talented, in other words the very people England should be encouraging, especially as they would't have to assimilate to our ways, unlike the present immigrants,some of whom have no intention of accepting the British way of life.

In the meantime in order to service the expected influx of immigrants that the SNP have stated they will encourage, P&O ferries have stated their willingness to open a new route Calais to Aberdeen.

[NeverSure]

There is some talk in the papers about a possible influx into England of Scots in the event of a "YES" result, I'm sure the Nationalist will say this is a scare story,and they could be right. Anyway lets assume they are correct, those that would move south would mostly be the more educated and talented, in other words the very people England should be encouraging, especially as they would't have to assimilate to our ways, unlike the present immigrants,some of whom have no intention of accepting the British way of life.

In the meantime in order to service the expected influx of immigrants that the SNP have stated they will encourage, P&O ferries have stated their willingness to open a new route Calais to Aberdeen.

Scotland would be out of the EU. Would they then need to go through a process to immigrate?

Scotland would have a lot of catching up to do. They'd lose military, NATO membership, EU membership, the right to directly use the pound unless England decided to allow it, a central bank...

They could create their own currency and back it with pounds they could buy if England didn't cave and let them use the pound.

[Richard W]

Scotland would be out of the EU. Would they then need to go through a process to immigrate?

They'd lose military, NATO membership, EU membership, the right to directly use the pound unless England decided to allow it, a central bank...

Those that leave before independence may very well be allowed English citizenship, just as the SNP is proposing to force Scottish citizenship on English residents of Scotland.

I don't believe we can stop the Scots using the pound. We might just allow the Scots to use 'offshore' bank accounts in England.

[NeverSure]

Scotland would be out of the EU. Would they then need to go through a process to immigrate?

They'd lose military, NATO membership, EU membership, the right to directly use the pound unless England decided to allow it, a central bank...

Those that leave before independence may very well be allowed English citizenship, just as the SNP is proposing to force Scottish citizenship on English residents of Scotland.

I don't believe we can stop the Scots using the pound. We might just allow the Scots to use 'offshore' bank accounts in England.

Thanks. I agree the Scots could use the pound, my comment was more about having access to a central bank.

The Scots would have a lot of work to do and quickly.

Scotland wouldn't have a defense treaty with anyone. I can see NATO reacting if Scotland was attacked on its own soil, but I doubt they would if Russia started drilling in Scotland's sovereign waters.

Remember about a year ago China was sabre rattling about restricted airspace and fishing rights in the S. China Sea? The US sailed a couple of Nimitz-class carrier groups through there as a show of force. Thailand has a treaty with the US for mutual defense.

Edited September 18, 2014 by NeverSure

[loppylugs1]

I see George Square in Glasgow is now awash with YES voters.....a pleasure to witness!

Funny you should say this. Majority of the YES voters do indeed look as though they need a wash,....a shave and change of clothes too.

Just an afterthought do the majority of the YES voters have jobs? they sure look rough,not tough,rough

[Richard W]

Scotland wouldn't have a defense treaty with anyone. I can see NATO reacting if Scotland was attacked on its own soil, but I doubt they would if Russia started drilling in Scotland's sovereign waters.

I can see a show of Anglo-Norwegian solidarity, perhaps even with Danish support. A Russian claim would challenge Norwegian and Danish (think Faroes) rights, and a Russian presence would not be welcome to England. England might need to be the one who plays rough if Scotland threatens to default on its share of the British National Debt - we wouldn't want the Russians there.

[loppylugs1]

Scotland wouldn't have a defense treaty with anyone. I can see NATO reacting if Scotland was attacked on its own soil, but I doubt they would if Russia started drilling in Scotland's sovereign waters.

I can see a show of Anglo-Norwegian solidarity, perhaps even with Danish support. A Russian claim would challenge Norwegian and Danish (think Faroes) rights, and a Russian presence would not be welcome to England. England might need to be the one who plays rough if Scotland threatens to default on its share of the British National Debt - we wouldn't want the Russians there.

Scothland would have to hock its oil for decades ahead to stay afloat,do not give up on the Russkies or chinks for drilling rights

[Johnniey]

There is some talk in the papers about a possible influx into England of Scots in the event of a "YES" result, I'm sure the Nationalist will say this is a scare story,and they could be right. Anyway lets assume they are correct, those that would move south would mostly be the more educated and talented, in other words the very people England should be encouraging, especially as they would't have to assimilate to our ways, unlike the present immigrants,some of whom have no intention of accepting the British way of life.

In the meantime in order to service the expected influx of immigrants that the SNP have stated they will encourage, P&O ferries have stated their willingness to open a new route Calais to Aberdeen.

Why more educated?

The last time I went to London it was all homeless Scots I saw.

[Johnniey]

I see George Square in Glasgow is now awash with YES voters.....a pleasure to witness!

Funny you should say this. Majority of the YES voters do indeed look as though they need a wash,....a shave and change of clothes too.

Just an afterthought do the majority of the YES voters have jobs? they sure look rough,not tough,rough

Piss off you idiot

[wilcopops]

I see George Square in Glasgow is now awash with YES voters.....a pleasure to witness!

Funny you should say this. Majority of the YES voters do indeed look as though they need a wash,....a shave and change of clothes too.

Just an afterthought do the majority of the YES voters have jobs? they sure look rough,not tough,rough

...and the award for today's most facile post ............

[wilcopops]

There is some talk in the papers about a possible influx into England of Scots in the event of a "YES" result, I'm sure the Nationalist will say this is a scare story,and they could be right. Anyway lets assume they are correct, those that would move south would mostly be the more educated and talented, in other words the very people England should be encouraging, especially as they would't have to assimilate to our ways, unlike the present immigrants,some of whom have no intention of accepting the British way of life.

In the meantime in order to service the expected influx of immigrants that the SNP have stated they will encourage, P&O ferries have stated their willingness to open a new route Calais to Aberdeen.

Why more educated?

The last time I went to London it was all homeless Scots I saw.

You are either a very caring or very ODD person, why when you visit London do you spend all your time striking up conversations with the homeless? Are you just showing off? Have you just bought a house???

Edited September 18, 2014 by wilcopops

[Tep]

I was speaking to a friend from France, who is hoping that Scotland will become independent. He is from Brittany and he is hoping for independence one day. He said how Scotland goes will be pivotal for a number of areas, including:

--Basque

--Corsica

--Belgium

I know it's a little off-topic but will Scottish Independence affect any of these areas?

The development or existence of regional multinational entities (i.e. the EU) has been a catalyst for 'regionalisation'. There is no reason for groups who identify by history, geography, ethnicity or otherwise to remain tied to a nation state that does not serve their interest (any more). These groups can associate independently with the EU and be part of a larger framework that provides benefits that were previously provided by the union with a nation state.

My own view is that the nation state is no longer a functional model for developed economies. Multilateralism should be the way of the future for intelligent, rational and mature societies who can engage with each other according to a mutually agreed set of rules. There is a thought provoking article on the future of the nation state in the New Scientist of a couple of weeks ago http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329850.600-end-of-nations-is-there-an-alternative-to-countries.html

All the groups you identify might find it easier to develop their identity apart from their current ties and under a larger framework such as the EU. Naturally this view will offend some/many but I find it interesting that the use of multilateralism to tackle international issues that was part of the Clinton Administration has been reversed by a dogmatic unilateralism that seems to create more problems than it solves. "Coalitions of the Willing" and bilateral trade agreements are a weak substitute for true multilateral co-operation and engagement.

For Scotland, I personally cheer on your efforts and if you vote for independence, I wish all Scots people every success. You will face all the issues and resolve all the challenges successfully, as a mature, developed society. Because of the Scottish Diaspora, I grew up attending fetes and fairs with Highland Dancers and Caber Tossing competitions and this is part of my cultural experience. We have seen the Edinburgh festival grow over the decades to one of the World's pre-eminent cultural events. There are so many other positive examples of the Scots identity that many of us can relate to even though we are not Scottish. Best wishes if the vote goes for independence and if it doesn't then you will have still achieved progress and there is always a next time.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Tep

[wilcopops]

I was speaking to a friend from France, who is hoping that Scotland will become independent. He is from Brittany and he is hoping for independence one day. He said how Scotland goes will be pivotal for a number of areas, including:

--Basque

--Corsica

--Belgium

I know it's a little off-topic but will Scottish Independence affect any of these areas?

The development or existence of regional multinational entities (i.e. the EU) has been a catalyst for 'regionalisation'. There is no reason for groups who identify by history, geography, ethnicity or otherwise to remain tied to a nation state that does not serve their interest (any more). These groups can associate independently with the EU and be part of a larger framework that provides benefits that were previously provided by the union with a nation state.

My own view is that the nation state is no longer a functional model for developed economies. Multilateralism should be the way of the future for intelligent, rational and mature societies who can engage with each other according to a mutually agreed set of rules. There is a thought provoking article on the future of the nation state in the New Scientist of a couple of weeks ago http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329850.600-end-of-nations-is-there-an-alternative-to-countries.html

All the groups you identify might find it easier to develop their identity apart from their current ties and under a larger framework such as the EU. Naturally this view will offend some/many but I find it interesting that the use of multilateralism to tackle international issues that was part of the Clinton Administration has been reversed by a dogmatic unilateralism that seems to create more problems than it solves. "Coalitions of the Willing" and bilateral trade agreements are a weak substitute for true multilateral co-operation and engagement.

For Scotland, I personally cheer on your efforts and if you vote for independence, I wish all Scots people every success. You will face all the issues and resolve all the challenges successfully, as a mature, developed society. Because of the Scottish Diaspora, I grew up attending fetes and fairs with Highland Dancers and Caber Tossing competitions and this is part of my cultural experience. We have seen the Edinburgh festival grow over the decades to one of the World's pre-eminent cultural events. There are so many other positive examples of the Scots identity that many of us can relate to even though we are not Scottish. Best wishes if the vote goes for independence and if it doesn't then you will have still achieved progress and there is always a next time.

Side effect of the EU is in fact the recognition of smaller Nations within the Union, hence many of the Balkan/Baltic countries originally outside the EU and inside Catalonia, Basques - even Wales and Brittany - and other countries wanting nationhood, they no longer need the 'overpowering" influence of another nation on top of their membership of the EU.

[PREM-R]

There is some talk in the papers about a possible influx into England of Scots in the event of a "YES" result, I'm sure the Nationalist will say this is a scare story,and they could be right. Anyway lets assume they are correct, those that would move south would mostly be the more educated and talented, in other words the very people England should be encouraging, especially as they would't have to assimilate to our ways, unlike the present immigrants,some of whom have no intention of accepting the British way of life.

In the meantime in order to service the expected influx of immigrants that the SNP have stated they will encourage, P&O ferries have stated their willingness to open a new route Calais to Aberdeen.

Why more educated?

The last time I went to London it was all homeless Scots I saw.

You are either a very caring or very ODD person, why when you visit London do you spend all your time striking up conversations with the homeless? Are you just showing off? Have you just bought a house???

"You are either a very caring or very ODD person"

Or perhaps he is neither of the above and knew the homeless people were 'Scots' because they shouted to him "Hey Pal, giza poond for a wee drap a swally!"

[mommysboy]

In all honesty I do see a tangible sway towards yes, and it could well be a win for Salmond. From the heart it probably is the right choice too, economically it really will be a disaster.

Yes UK Govt. to blame, what the majority of Scots want is independence within the UK, as England has, but faced with the wording 'Do you want an independent Scotland" of course the instinct is to say yes. Cameron and co. had the chance for a third box that would have guaranteed the union.

Bad campaign from UK Govt. start to finish,

[jpinx]

In all honesty I do see a tangible sway towards yes, and it could well be a win for Salmond. From the heart it probably is the right choice too, economically it really will be a disaster.

Yes UK Govt. to blame, what the majority of Scots want is independence within the UK, as England has, but faced with the wording 'Do you want an independent Scotland" of course the instinct is to say yes. Cameron and co. had the chance for a third box that would have guaranteed the union.

Bad campaign from UK Govt. start to finish,

Apart from your comment regarding the economical disaster - I agree totally Westminster really screwed up this whole process right from the moment they refused the 3rd option.

If it's a YES result - it'll be a tricky few years before financial stability, but one thing is for sure -- watch the money trial. Long term investors will be buying into Scotland.

[MJP]

In all honesty I do see a tangible sway towards yes, and it could well be a win for Salmond. From the heart it probably is the right choice too, economically it really will be a disaster.

Yes UK Govt. to blame, what the majority of Scots want is independence within the UK, as England has, but faced with the wording 'Do you want an independent Scotland" of course the instinct is to say yes. Cameron and co. had the chance for a third box that would have guaranteed the union.

Bad campaign from UK Govt. start to finish,

Apart from your comment regarding the economical disaster - I agree totally Westminster really screwed up this whole process right from the moment they refused the 3rd option.

If it's a YES result - it'll be a tricky few years before financial stability, but one thing is for sure -- watch the money trial. Long term investors will be buying into Scotland.

How painless the transition is will make all the difference and I don't think sufficient legwork has been done on this. Otherwise, yes, I think there's likely to be a lot of interest in Scotland.

[mommysboy]

It was crass stupidity to assume that the economic argument would be a win all argument, it just shows how shallow the Tories are, not that Labour are much better for other reasons.

Who would want to stay with such a bunch!

[loppylugs1]

In all honesty I do see a tangible sway towards yes, and it could well be a win for Salmond. From the heart it probably is the right choice too, economically it really will be a disaster.

Yes UK Govt. to blame, what the majority of Scots want is independence within the UK, as England has, but faced with the wording 'Do you want an independent Scotland" of course the instinct is to say yes. Cameron and co. had the chance for a third box that would have guaranteed the union.

Bad campaign from UK Govt. start to finish,

Apart from your comment regarding the economical disaster - I agree totally Westminster really screwed up this whole process right from the moment they refused the 3rd option.

If it's a YES result - it'll be a tricky few years before financial stability, but one thing is for sure -- watch the money trial. Long term investors will be buying into Scotland.

You must be joking Scotland? put a bunch of money on the LSE yesterday on prospects of a result of NO vote,if YES Im out of scotland,and yes have got more than a few bob in Lloyds bank

[Franky Bear]

Big day today. I have never thought it will be anything but a "No"

There's nothing i have read or seen that changes that.

One thing though, if you are undecided you must vote no. It's way too big a risk to gamble on our future. We will have an Indy vote again in all our lifetimes

The main reason i personally would vote no is because .............we can't go back.

I also have no doubt it would cripple Scotland beyond repair for ever more meaning the standard of living would drop, taxes up, a crippled NHS that would never get to the standard it is right now and even worse, a bigger poverty gap (that is normal in Socialist countries which Socialist voices always avoid for some strange reason) .

These projections of a better Scotland can't work.

I see people say, "Tell me other countries that have got Indy that have failed?" (you can't compare the separation of countries over 50 years ago as times have drastically changed)

Well, tell me exactly what "failed" means. Plus these countries did not separate from one of the richest counties in the world, they have mostly been third world shit holes or eastern European/iron curtain hell holes that are still not nice places to lives (i'm in one now)

Both sides have lied, but the onus has always been on the Yes campaign to run a fair, open transparent campaign to persuade us to believe they can make Scotland better with facts, figures and intimate detail of what will happen using academics.

This has not happened at all, in fact i am embarrassed for the Yes campaign and how badly they have done. It's been excruciating to see Salmond tell blatant lie after lie after lie especially with something we hold dear to our hearts. The NHS.

I do understand why the rational people want to separate, i really do, but for me, this has always been about one mans Ego and it has absolutely ripped apart families, friendships and the country for generations.

This was not the right time to cast such a huge vote. The World is in a mess in so many ways right now (not just the UK, even though facts and figures say the UK is ion the up in a good way in critical sectors) If the SNP had waiting 10-20 years the world might be in a better place so peoples focus would be more on what is happening with in our own boarders rather than having one eye on other political and financial situations abroad . But Salmond does not give a <deleted> about that. it's win at all costs so he can sit at home with the millions he now has in the bank with a big grin on his face knowing him and his family are financially set for life....but who gives a <deleted> about the rest.

I've ranted on a bit........ it will be a No vote.

Vote with your head, not your heart

[jpinx]

In all honesty I do see a tangible sway towards yes, and it could well be a win for Salmond. From the heart it probably is the right choice too, economically it really will be a disaster.

Yes UK Govt. to blame, what the majority of Scots want is independence within the UK, as England has, but faced with the wording 'Do you want an independent Scotland" of course the instinct is to say yes. Cameron and co. had the chance for a third box that would have guaranteed the union.

Bad campaign from UK Govt. start to finish,

Apart from your comment regarding the economical disaster - I agree totally Westminster really screwed up this whole process right from the moment they refused the 3rd option.

If it's a YES result - it'll be a tricky few years before financial stability, but one thing is for sure -- watch the money trial. Long term investors will be buying into Scotland.

How painless the transition is will make all the difference and I don't think sufficient legwork has been done on this. Otherwise, yes, I think there's likely to be a lot of interest in Scotland.

============>>>

The legwork was made impossible by Westminsters refusal to enter into meaningful discussions. All 3 party leaders - aided and abetted by highly biased bankers, eonomists and financiers - have been stone-walling all approaches for talks to map out options. With that background and UK's ambivalence these days, there was no chance to explore possibilities with EU either.

Salmond might not be everyone's cup of tea, but he has consistently said that this referendum is nothing to do with party politics, politicians, SNP or other parties -- it is about the people of Scotland deciding on their own future.

[Basil B]

I suspect many of those who say they will vote YES are just "saber rattling" canny Scott's who know they will be worse off with independence and will not be voting YES.

Anyway we will know this time tomorrow...

[MJP]

In all honesty I do see a tangible sway towards yes, and it could well be a win for Salmond. From the heart it probably is the right choice too, economically it really will be a disaster.

Yes UK Govt. to blame, what the majority of Scots want is independence within the UK, as England has, but faced with the wording 'Do you want an independent Scotland" of course the instinct is to say yes. Cameron and co. had the chance for a third box that would have guaranteed the union.

Bad campaign from UK Govt. start to finish,

Apart from your comment regarding the economical disaster - I agree totally Westminster really screwed up this whole process right from the moment they refused the 3rd option.

If it's a YES result - it'll be a tricky few years before financial stability, but one thing is for sure -- watch the money trial. Long term investors will be buying into Scotland.

How painless the transition is will make all the difference and I don't think sufficient legwork has been done on this. Otherwise, yes, I think there's likely to be a lot of interest in Scotland.

============>>>

The legwork was made impossible by Westminsters refusal to enter into meaningful discussions. All 3 party leaders - aided and abetted by highly biased bankers, eonomists and financiers - have been stone-walling all approaches for talks to map out options. With that background and UK's ambivalence these days, there was no chance to explore possibilities with EU either.

Salmond might not be everyone's cup of tea, but he has consistently said that this referendum is nothing to do with party politics, politicians, SNP or other parties -- it is about the people of Scotland deciding on their own future.

We're all rooting for you down here in the seaside south west.

[mommysboy]

In all honesty I do see a tangible sway towards yes, and it could well be a win for Salmond. From the heart it probably is the right choice too, economically it really will be a disaster.

Yes UK Govt. to blame, what the majority of Scots want is independence within the UK, as England has, but faced with the wording 'Do you want an independent Scotland" of course the instinct is to say yes. Cameron and co. had the chance for a third box that would have guaranteed the union.

Bad campaign from UK Govt. start to finish,

Apart from your comment regarding the economical disaster - I agree totally Westminster really screwed up this whole process right from the moment they refused the 3rd option.

If it's a YES result - it'll be a tricky few years before financial stability, but one thing is for sure -- watch the money trial. Long term investors will be buying into Scotland.

How painless the transition is will make all the difference and I don't think sufficient legwork has been done on this. Otherwise, yes, I think there's likely to be a lot of interest in Scotland.

============>>>

The legwork was made impossible by Westminsters refusal to enter into meaningful discussions. All 3 party leaders - aided and abetted by highly biased bankers, eonomists and financiers - have been stone-walling all approaches for talks to map out options. With that background and UK's ambivalence these days, there was no chance to explore possibilities with EU either.

Salmond might not be everyone's cup of tea, but he has consistently said that this referendum is nothing to do with party politics, politicians, SNP or other parties -- it is about the people of Scotland deciding on their own future.

"If it's a YES result - it'll be a tricky few years before financial stability, but one thing is for sure -- watch the money trial. Long term investors will be buying into Scotland."

This does somewhat typify the financial fantasy that the no campaign has been right about.

[jpinx]

In all honesty I do see a tangible sway towards yes, and it could well be a win for Salmond. From the heart it probably is the right choice too, economically it really will be a disaster.

Yes UK Govt. to blame, what the majority of Scots want is independence within the UK, as England has, but faced with the wording 'Do you want an independent Scotland" of course the instinct is to say yes. Cameron and co. had the chance for a third box that would have guaranteed the union.

Bad campaign from UK Govt. start to finish,

Apart from your comment regarding the economical disaster - I agree totally Westminster really screwed up this whole process right from the moment they refused the 3rd option.

If it's a YES result - it'll be a tricky few years before financial stability, but one thing is for sure -- watch the money trial. Long term investors will be buying into Scotland.

How painless the transition is will make all the difference and I don't think sufficient legwork has been done on this. Otherwise, yes, I think there's likely to be a lot of interest in Scotland.

============>>>

The legwork was made impossible by Westminsters refusal to enter into meaningful discussions. All 3 party leaders - aided and abetted by highly biased bankers, eonomists and financiers - have been stone-walling all approaches for talks to map out options. With that background and UK's ambivalence these days, there was no chance to explore possibilities with EU either.

Salmond might not be everyone's cup of tea, but he has consistently said that this referendum is nothing to do with party politics, politicians, SNP or other parties -- it is about the people of Scotland deciding on their own future.

"If it's a YES result - it'll be a tricky few years before financial stability, but one thing is for sure -- watch the money trial. Long term investors will be buying into Scotland."

This does somewhat typify the financial fantasy that the no campaign has been right about.

no fantasy -- sterling is up against USD and EUR today already

[smokie36]

I suspect many of those who say they will vote YES are just "saber rattling" canny Scott's who know they will be worse off with independence and will not be voting YES.

Anyway we will know this time tomorrow...

You are kidding yourself.