Not all smiles for some retirees in Chiang Mai

[CMfoodie]

Kudos to Nancy and her volunteers

By Nirmal Ghosh, Indochina Bureau Chief In Chiang Mai

It is 2pm in Chiang Mai as Mrs Nancy Lindley wheels frail 74-year-old former stockbroker David Descault to the bank to close his accounts.

The American has lived 10 years in Chiang Mai. Thin as a rake and wheelchair-bound after a hip fracture around 19 months ago, he is due to travel home to Los Angeles, his passage funded by a loan under a United States Consulate programme.

As he collects his meagre few hundred baht, he banters with Mrs Lindley, saying with a short acerbic laugh: "I may get depressed, I may have some regrets, but I haven't lost my sense of humour."

He is an alcoholic who has no children. He was living alone in Chiang Mai and broke his hip but was "in denial and just lay in bed drinking until the neighbours became concerned and called us", said Mrs Lindley. Now, out of money and with no family left, he is going directly to a nursing home in the US. His US Government pension cheque will be redirected to the home.

- See more at: http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-story/asia-report/thailand/story/not-all-smiles-some-retirees-chiang-mai-20141012#sthash.4c1jH1lP.dpuf

[elektrified]

I guess he was on overstay for the last 10 years too?

[worgeordie]

Alone and an alcoholic,your right ,he does not have much to smile about.

regards worgeordie

[JulieM]

Something is missing from this story. Sources, for instance. There is no way he is "out of money" unless he failed to make his social security payments. Normally he would be receiving at least 20,000-75,000 baht per month depending on his past income. I guess Nancy L. will clue us in with what she knows.

[northernjohn]

That may be so.

But I do know that back in Canada Alcoholism or just plain heavy drinking was a big problem with Senior's. All so I get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check so I know they could be less than 20,000.

[NancyL]

Well, since David decided to talk with the media what I can share is that he has multiple health problems (not detailed in the article) which were making it increasingly difficult for him to live alone. He receives less than a full SS benefit and has consumed his savings on medical expenses. While at one time he had retirement visa, he no longer met the requirements because of the change in his medical and financial situation. His doctors at Suan Dok were recommending medical tests and procedures he couldn't afford and also insisting that he shouldn't live alone. He couldn't afford to move to assisted living at Dok Kaew Gardens at McKean.

There -- does that answer everyone's questions? The real lesson to be learned from David's experience isn't so much to avoid alcohol, but rather the importance of planning ahead, saving money, having health insurance and building a social network.

[mania]

Very Good Work Nancy

Nice to hear there are folks like you & your volunteers

[elektrified]

That may be so.

But I do know that back in Canada Alcoholism or just plain heavy drinking was a big problem with Senior's. All so I get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check so I know they could be less than 20,000.

When you say that you "get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check" I'll assume that is a Canadian benefit? My American friend in Bangkok hasn't paid any U.S. taxes since he was about 25 years old and still gets about 21,000 THB per month from social security so I don't see how its possible to receive so little - presuming you are referring to U.S. social security. My mother got double that before she passed away in 1992. I think you have said you are Canadian but is that an accurate figure?

[Rotweiler]

I too was astounded by the 11,000B figure. If in fact the poster is a Canadian, that is impossible - the absolute minimal OAS benefit is just under 15,000B/month. That is not including your CPP (Canada Pension Plan) benefits with will add abn additional triple that amount.

[Ulysses G.]

That may be so.

But I do know that back in Canada Alcoholism or just plain heavy drinking was a big problem with Senior's. All so I get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check so I know they could be less than 20,000.

When you say that you "get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check" I'll assume that is a Canadian benefit? My American friend in Bangkok hasn't paid any U.S. taxes since he was about 25 years old and still gets about 21,000 THB per month from social security so I don't see how its possible to receive so little - presuming you are referring to U.S. social security. My mother got double that before she passed away in 1992. I think you have said you are Canadian but is that an accurate figure?

There is no minimum amount for American SS benefits. It all depends on how many quarters you worked - paid taxes - and how much you were making. I know several people here who are making less than 15,000 baht per month and one is a Vietnam veteran.

[Dante99]

Minimum Monthly Social Security Benefit

There is no minimum monthly Social Security retirement benefit, but for administrative reasons, the SSA will not pay a benefit of less than $1.

Maximum Monthly Social Security Benefit

The maximum retirement benefit depends on the age at which you choose to retire.

In 2014, if you retire at age 66, the maximum amount you will receive is $2,642.

[NancyL]

UG is right -- the U.S. Social Security benefit is calculated based on how many quarters you worked and paid FICA taxes. If you worked a job where FICA wasn't withheld by the employer -- say an entertainer, taxi driver, waiter -- and the individual didn't declare the income to the IRS, then that income wasn't recorded for SS purposes. Also, some jobs didn't pay into the SS system -- like some teaching jobs, but they're covered under other retirement systems.

If a foreigner worked in the U.S. and paid FICA taxes, then they will get a SS benefit. I've helped non-U.S. citizens claim SS retirement income they didn't know they could obtain. Also, if you were married and are now divorced or widowed, you could be eligible to claim 1/2 of your spouse's monthly benefit. This doesn't reduce the amount your former spouse receives and they don't need to know you're applying. (Certain conditions apply, of course!)

Elektrified, I don't see how your American friend could be receiving 21,000 THB per month from SS if he hasn't paid taxes since age 25. He simply wouldn't have paid enough taxes into Social Security to be able to receive a benefit that high. Perhaps he is claiming a spouse's pension or maybe he worked and FICA taxes were withheld from his paycheck. Even then, the IRS would have wanted him to file an income tax return at some point.

[Spaniel]

That may be so.

But I do know that back in Canada Alcoholism or just plain heavy drinking was a big problem with Senior's. All so I get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check so I know they could be less than 20,000.

When you say that you "get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check" I'll assume that is a Canadian benefit? My American friend in Bangkok hasn't paid any U.S. taxes since he was about 25 years old and still gets about 21,000 THB per month from social security so I don't see how its possible to receive so little - presuming you are referring to U.S. social security. My mother got double that before she passed away in 1992. I think you have said you are Canadian but is that an accurate figure?

I think you are confusing a couple of things. The SS benifits arn't calculated on how much US tax is paid. They are based on how much you earned and you pay 7.5 % FICA and your company pays another 7.5%. Obviously your friend was a "low earner" so he may not have had to pay any tax or if he was working outside the USA he may have qualified for the tax exemption, and since his earnings were low he paid a minimal amount into SS, thus his low monthly SS check now in retirement. I started working overseas in 1967 and I never had to pay US income tax either but I did pay FICA.

[elektrified]

UG is right -- the U.S. Social Security benefit is calculated based on how many quarters you worked and paid FICA taxes. If you worked a job where FICA wasn't withheld by the employer -- say an entertainer, taxi driver, waiter -- and the individual didn't declare the income to the IRS, then that income wasn't recorded for SS purposes. Also, some jobs didn't pay into the SS system -- like some teaching jobs, but they're covered under other retirement systems.

If a foreigner worked in the U.S. and paid FICA taxes, then they will get a SS benefit. I've helped non-U.S. citizens claim SS retirement income they didn't know they could obtain. Also, if you were married and are now divorced or widowed, you could be eligible to claim 1/2 of your spouse's monthly benefit. This doesn't reduce the amount your former spouse receives and they don't need to know you're applying. (Certain conditions apply, of course!)

Elektrified, I don't see how your American friend could be receiving 21,000 THB per month from SS if he hasn't paid taxes since age 25. He simply wouldn't have paid enough taxes into Social Security to be able to receive a benefit that high. Perhaps he is claiming a spouse's pension or maybe he worked and FICA taxes were withheld from his paycheck. Even then, the IRS would have wanted him to file an income tax return at some point.

NancyL's right about what she says in paragraph 2. My Mom at some point was able to get more SS income from my Father's SS even though they had been divorced for some 30 years at the time. But she did have to get some permission from him and he had to sign a form as I remember her explaining the situation to him and I took the form to him to sign.

I only know that my friend gets about US $620 per month from SSA starting about 2 years ago. That's not that much money... He was self-employed almost his entire adult life.

[mesquite]

I know a few people in CM who get about $500-600 US per month, and more who get a bit over $1000.

The maximum at age 66 is $2642 as Dante99 points out, but this would be for someone who had a decent-paying to high-paying job for many years. People in that category have other investments, profit-sharing plans, company pensions, etc and don't need to retire to Chiang Mai. Probably very few here. The low end are here, or living in the US with relatives.

[NancyL]

Perhaps in the past you had to secure the "permission" of a former spouse to apply for spousal SS benefits, but having assisting people to do this recently, I can assure you this isn't the case now. They don't even know you're applying and it doesn't reduce the amount of the primary person's benefit.

And Mesquite, surely you didn't want to say that only poor people retire to Chiang Mai? I know many retirees here who receive full SS benefits, have private pensions, profit sharing, investments, etc. They enjoy the Chiang Mai lifestyle just the same as less wealthy people. They, too, can have health problems and find themselves alone and uncertain about where to go for assistance in a foreign country. A key difference is that, with money, they have more options than those with limited income.

[mesquite]

The very successful people I know stayed in the US. While I do know some people with full social security here, they are few and far between. Could be that crowd I run with.

[elektrified]

There are indeed a number of US$ EUR CHF GBP millionaires amongst us here in C.M. I know a couple. But the ones I know don't flaunt it.

If I had the means and would ever consider retirement (I love to work and stay busy) I'd probably be on the Mediterranean Coast somewhere - or on the coast of Central or Northern California. But that's just me. But I really do enjoy my life in C.M. And for me, it's a nice place to raise a child. Except for the air...

[northernjohn]

That may be so.

But I do know that back in Canada Alcoholism or just plain heavy drinking was a big problem with Senior's. All so I get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check so I know they could be less than 20,000.

When you say that you "get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check" I'll assume that is a Canadian benefit? My American friend in Bangkok hasn't paid any U.S. taxes since he was about 25 years old and still gets about 21,000 THB per month from social security so I don't see how its possible to receive so little - presuming you are referring to U.S. social security. My mother got double that before she passed away in 1992. I think you have said you are Canadian but is that an accurate figure?

Canada does not have SS they have CPP you assume wrong.

[ClutchClark]

That may be so.

But I do know that back in Canada Alcoholism or just plain heavy drinking was a big problem with Senior's. All so I get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check so I know they could be less than 20,000.

When you say that you "get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check" I'll assume that is a Canadian benefit? My American friend in Bangkok hasn't paid any U.S. taxes since he was about 25 years old and still gets about 21,000 THB per month from social security so I don't see how its possible to receive so little - presuming you are referring to U.S. social security. My mother got double that before she passed away in 1992. I think you have said you are Canadian but is that an accurate figure?

The only way your American friend could collect that after not paying taxes since age 25 is if he is on Disability.

Unfortunately, alcoholism is considered a disease rather than simply a weak character and so qualifies drunkards as disabled.

So the working taxpayer gets sucked dry.

[mikey88]

Sad case...I hope he's well looked after.

People sometimes talk of alcoholism as if it were immutable. It's not...no matter how old you are.

You just stop.

Ok you might need a medical detox for the initial stages...but after that....you just stop.

[JulieM]

I wrote:

"Normally he would be receiving at least 20,000-75,000 baht per month depending on his past income."

Indeed my minimum estimation of 20,000 baht per month was incorrect. I know a US guy here who hardly ever worked a "normal" job in his life and he still gets 18,000 baht per month, but I guess there are people who get even less.

[northernjohn]

That may be so.

But I do know that back in Canada Alcoholism or just plain heavy drinking was a big problem with Senior's. All so I get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check so I know they could be less than 20,000.

When you say that you "get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check" I'll assume that is a Canadian benefit? My American friend in Bangkok hasn't paid any U.S. taxes since he was about 25 years old and still gets about 21,000 THB per month from social security so I don't see how its possible to receive so little - presuming you are referring to U.S. social security. My mother got double that before she passed away in 1992. I think you have said you are Canadian but is that an accurate figure?

The only way your American friend could collect that after not paying taxes since age 25 is if he is on Disability.

Unfortunately, alcoholism is considered a disease rather than simply a weak character and so qualifies drunkards as disabled.

So the working taxpayer gets sucked dry.

Not correct. If you pay into SS for 40 quarters you are eligible.

One quarter I paid in 5$ I had exactly 40 quarters and just barely made the cut off.

I couldn't swear that 40 quarters is the minim maybe for full benefits.

[NancyL]

Sad case...I hope he's well looked after.

People sometimes talk of alcoholism as if it were immutable. It's not...no matter how old you are.

You just stop.

Ok you might need a medical detox for the initial stages...but after that....you just stop.

Mikey88, you're right on a couple of counts. Often people who describe themselves as alcoholic are not currently actively drinking. What they're saying is they realize they have a problem with with alcohol, a problem they've battled all their life, with periods where they're drinking and (often) long, long periods where they never touch a drop of alcohol, go to AA meetings, etc.

Also, someone with a Social Security income can still be considered destitute if the cost of on-going routine expenses (like for medications, regular doctor appointments at the least expensive gov't hospital, transportation to that hospital, assistance in the home, not to mention rent, food & utilities, etc) exceed the monthly benefit. People in this situation are not "looked after" in Thailand. It is not the obligation of Thai society to do this. It is, however, something available to an elderly person in their own country, indeed it should be the duty of a developed society to look after their fragile, elderly, no matter how they got themselves into that condition. Americans are fortunate in that the U.S. Consulate does offer a loan for transportation back to the U.S. for someone in this situation. A very few other countries do this, although other avenues of assistance can be available to repatriate destitute elderly foreigners of other nationalities in need of continuing care.

Of course, the quickest way to assure you'll be able to get yourself back to your home country to receive the care you need is to keep a large enough bank balance to finance your own return (and that of an escort -- often needed to help someone returning for care)

[ramrod711]

That may be so.

But I do know that back in Canada Alcoholism or just plain heavy drinking was a big problem with Senior's. All so I get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check so I know they could be less than 20,000.

When you say that you "get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check" I'll assume that is a Canadian benefit? My American friend in Bangkok hasn't paid any U.S. taxes since he was about 25 years old and still gets about 21,000 THB per month from social security so I don't see how its possible to receive so little - presuming you are referring to U.S. social security. My mother got double that before she passed away in 1992. I think you have said you are Canadian but is that an accurate figure?

Canada does not have SS they have CPP you assume wrong.

Canada has CPP, which you pay in to. How much you get is determined by how much you pay, up to a maximum limit. Canada also has OAP, which you do not pay in to. To collect the maximum amount you must be in Canada for 40 years after your 18th birthday. You lose 1/40th of your pension for every year you do not reside in Canada for more than 183 days. Not sure why we are discussing this since the person the article is about is American.

[watcharacters]

Minimum Monthly Social Security Benefit

There is no minimum monthly Social Security retirement benefit, but for administrative reasons, the SSA will not pay a benefit of less than $1.

Maximum Monthly Social Security Benefit

The maximum retirement benefit depends on the age at which you choose to retire.

In 2014, if you retire at age 66, the maximum amount you will receive is $2,642.

And for clarification purposes, that maximum payment will only be given if the earner earned the required sum to achieve that payment.

Certainly by no means will every person retiring during 2014 who is 66 receive $2,642.

Overall, I think the system has help up well and done a pretty good job.

[VBF]

Sad case...I hope he's well looked after.

People sometimes talk of alcoholism as if it were immutable. It's not...no matter how old you are.

You just stop.

Ok you might need a medical detox for the initial stages...but after that....you just stop.

Mikey88, you're right on a couple of counts. Often people who describe themselves as alcoholic are not currently actively drinking. What they're saying is they realize they have a problem with with alcohol, a problem they've battled all their life, with periods where they're drinking and (often) long, long periods where they never touch a drop of alcohol, go to AA meetings, etc.

Also, someone with a Social Security income can still be considered destitute if the cost of on-going routine expenses (like for medications, regular doctor appointments at the least expensive gov't hospital, transportation to that hospital, assistance in the home, not to mention rent, food & utilities, etc) exceed the monthly benefit. People in this situation are not "looked after" in Thailand. It is not the obligation of Thai society to do this. It is, however, something available to an elderly person in their own country, indeed it should be the duty of a developed society to look after their fragile, elderly, no matter how they got themselves into that condition. Americans are fortunate in that the U.S. Consulate does offer a loan for transportation back to the U.S. for someone in this situation. A very few other countries do this, although other avenues of assistance can be available to repatriate destitute elderly foreigners of other nationalities in need of continuing care.

Of course, the quickest way to assure you'll be able to get yourself back to your home country to receive the care you need is to keep a large enough bank balance to finance your own return (and that of an escort -- often needed to help someone returning for care)

I believe (although I'm not medically qualified) that once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. I'm not being derogatory but apparently if an alcoholic stops drinking, they're forever unable to drink again without lapsing back into dependency after very few drinks. I've always assumed (!) it's a psychological addiction as much as a physical one.

What I find interesting, is that most of the replies have concentrated on the man's finances, but what got my attention was the OP where it said he broke his hip but was in denial and just carried on drinking! What sort of pain must he have been in, despite the alcohol? Makes me wince to think about it.

Anyway Nancy, we've disagreed here on other topics but Kudos to you for your actions

[ClutchClark]

That may be so.

But I do know that back in Canada Alcoholism or just plain heavy drinking was a big problem with Senior's. All so I get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check so I know they could be less than 20,000.

When you say that you "get just over 11,000 baht on my SS check" I'll assume that is a Canadian benefit? My American friend in Bangkok hasn't paid any U.S. taxes since he was about 25 years old and still gets about 21,000 THB per month from social security so I don't see how its possible to receive so little - presuming you are referring to U.S. social security. My mother got double that before she passed away in 1992. I think you have said you are Canadian but is that an accurate figure?

The only way your American friend could collect that after not paying taxes since age 25 is if he is on Disability.

Unfortunately, alcoholism is considered a disease rather than simply a weak character and so qualifies drunkards as disabled.

So the working taxpayer gets sucked dry.

Not correct. If you pay into SS for 40 quarters you are eligible.

One quarter I paid in 5$ I had exactly 40 quarters and just barely made the cut off.

I couldn't swear that 40 quarters is the minim maybe for full benefits.

40 quarters is 10 years of contributions.

So this individual started working when he was 15.

Suppose its possible.

Still seems fishy.

Thanks for correcting me.

[Beetlejuice]

Well, since David decided to talk with the media what I can share is that he has multiple health problems (not detailed in the article) which were making it increasingly difficult for him to live alone. He receives less than a full SS benefit and has consumed his savings on medical expenses. While at one time he had retirement visa, he no longer met the requirements because of the change in his medical and financial situation. His doctors at Suan Dok were recommending medical tests and procedures he couldn't afford and also insisting that he shouldn't live alone. He couldn't afford to move to assisted living at Dok Kaew Gardens at McKean.

There -- does that answer everyone's questions? The real lesson to be learned from David's experience isn't so much to avoid alcohol, but rather the importance of planning ahead, saving money, having health insurance and building a social network.

I have made my views on these matters evident to you several times, Madam.

People who are not vetted and registered under the authority of any official organisation, government body or charity should never be permitted to become involved with elderly ex-pats financial affairs. Many of these elderly retirees are vulnerable to extortion, fraud, being cheated and con merchants.

The responsibilities in these matters lie with the families, closest trusted friends, the authorities, the pension companies, the insurance companies, the banks and whatever financial institutions are holding the said funds and not the business of complete strangers to be delving into the personal financial affairs of others, even in good faith and having good intentions.

Also you are placing yourself under a tremendous risk, that if in the case there are any discrepancies found within the said funds or monies or accusations of possible theft made against you or a member of your crew, could involve the Chiang Mai ex-pats club in another scandal and yourself brought to face criminal charges.

Even regarding the elderly ex-pats who are suffering from serious mental and physical heath problems, do gooders that do not fall under any official body and are answerable to no one, should NEVER be permitted to become involved with the finances of such vulnerable people, for obvious reasons, most of which I have explained above.

[VBF]

Well, since David decided to talk with the media what I can share is that he has multiple health problems (not detailed in the article) which were making it increasingly difficult for him to live alone. He receives less than a full SS benefit and has consumed his savings on medical expenses. While at one time he had retirement visa, he no longer met the requirements because of the change in his medical and financial situation. His doctors at Suan Dok were recommending medical tests and procedures he couldn't afford and also insisting that he shouldn't live alone. He couldn't afford to move to assisted living at Dok Kaew Gardens at McKean.

There -- does that answer everyone's questions? The real lesson to be learned from David's experience isn't so much to avoid alcohol, but rather the importance of planning ahead, saving money, having health insurance and building a social network.

I have made my views on these matters evident to you several times, Madam.

People who are not vetted and registered under the authority of any official organisation, government body or charity should never be permitted to become involved with elderly ex-pats financial affairs. Many of these elderly retirees are vulnerable to extortion, fraud, being cheated and con merchants.

The responsibilities in these matters lie with the families, closest trusted friends, the authorities, the pension companies, the insurance companies, the banks and whatever financial institutions are holding the said funds and not the business of complete strangers to be delving into the personal financial affairs of others, even in good faith and having good intentions.

Also you are placing yourself under a tremendous risk, that if in the case there are any discrepancies found within the said funds or monies or accusations of possible theft made against you or a member of your crew, could involve the Chiang Mai ex-pats club in another scandal and yourself brought to face criminal charges.

Even regarding the elderly ex-pats who are suffering from serious mental and physical heath problems, do gooders that do not fall under any official body and are answerable to no one, should NEVER be permitted to become involved with the finances of such vulnerable people, for obvious reasons, most of which I have explained above.

You may have a point Beetlejuice but what if the Elderly Person has no family or close/trusted friends, as apparently is the case here?

Surely it's appropriate to do SOMETHING to help them? Especially in a country like Thailand where there is no State support (certainly for Farang).