Parents say their sons are innocent but beaten to confess

[Andre0720]

Any more news on the son of the mafia guy?

Yesterday News I did read that he is planning to leave Thailand...

Probably because he thinks Thailand is under the influence of too much corruption....

[transam]

Any more news on the son of the mafia guy?

Yesterday News I did read that he is planning to leave Thailand...

Probably because he thinks Thailand is under the influence of too much corruption....

Nooooooooooo, he heard the Brits are coming to sort stuff.....................

[JohnThailandJohn]

Everybody forgets that DNA evidence only proves they are connected to the the victim it does not prove they have commited the crime

Their semen was in one of the victims.

Which means absolutely nothing when you have a contaminated crime scene like this one with alleged mafia persons on the crime scene standing next to a body.

And no forensic expert .

You have no clue what contamination means. Their semen didn't get into the victim by contamination.

You have no clue who was there but what can be logically assumed is the people who collected the DNA were trained to do so as well as the folks testing the DNA.

The only way it could not be their semen is if authorities are lying about the match which would come out in court or there is a big conspiracy involving many people and entities.

For unknown reasons you seem to just want to close your eyes to reality.

Edited October 25, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[Rykbanlor]

Everybody forgets that DNA evidence only proves they are connected to the the victim it does not prove they have commited the crime

Their semen was in one of the victims.

Which means absolutely nothing when you have a contaminated crime scene like this one with alleged mafia persons on the crime scene standing next to a body.

And no forensic expert .

You have no clue what contamination means. Their semen didn't get into the victim by contamination.

You have no clue who was there but what can be logically assumed is the people who collected the DNA were trained to do so as well as the folks testing the DNA.

For unknown reasons you seem to just want to close your eyes to reality.

Who collected the DNA john?

It wasn't a forensic pathologist, that much we know. It was one of their own. So who knows how they meddled with it before it got to the testing.

Yes, I completely doubt the integrity of the Police.

[transam]

Everybody forgets that DNA evidence only proves they are connected to the the victim it does not prove they have commited the crime

Their semen was in one of the victims.

Which means absolutely nothing when you have a contaminated crime scene like this one with alleged mafia persons on the crime scene standing next to a body.

And no forensic expert .

You have no clue what contamination means. Their semen didn't get into the victim by contamination.

You have no clue who was there but what can be logically assumed is the people who collected the DNA were trained to do so as well as the folks testing the DNA.

For unknown reasons you seem to just want to close your eyes to reality.

And you haven't a clue about cash flow eh.......

[JohnThailandJohn]

Their semen was in one of the victims.

Which means absolutely nothing when you have a contaminated crime scene like this one with alleged mafia persons on the crime scene standing next to a body.

And no forensic expert .

You have no clue what contamination means. Their semen didn't get into the victim by contamination.

You have no clue who was there but what can be logically assumed is the people who collected the DNA were trained to do so as well as the folks testing the DNA.

For unknown reasons you seem to just want to close your eyes to reality.

Who collected the DNA john?

It wasn't a forensic pathologist, that much we know. It was one of their own. So who knows how they meddled with it before it got to the testing.

Yes, I completely doubt the integrity of the Police.

The semen DNA was likely collected during the autopsy and may have also been collected at the scene if it was also outside the body.

[Delcavom]

Everybody forgets that DNA evidence only proves they are connected to the the victim it does not prove they have commited the crime

Their semen was in one of the victims.

John you sure rely on thoughts contained within the box. How do you KNOW their semen was in one of the victims? Have you tested it yourself?

[makkam]

Look at those simple people. Have they brought up their sons to become rapists and murderers??

I refuse to believe it.

Please keep posting, so the two guys (together with Hannah and David) are never forgotten!!

I have serious misgivings re the whole investigation thus far but that is hogwash of the highest order

Do you think the parents of Fred West, Ian Huntley, Peter Sutcliffe, Myra Hindley etc etc bring up their progeny to be serial killers/murders?

Herr and Frau Hitler responsible for a wayward Adolf? That nasty pair Mr & Mrs Pol Pot.

[makkam]

Look at those simple people. Have they brought up their sons to become rapists and murderers??

I refuse to believe it.

Please keep posting, so the two guys (together with Hannah and David) are never forgotten!!

I have serious misgivings re the whole investigation thus far but that is hogwash of the highest order

Do you think the parents of Fred West, Ian Huntley, Peter Sutcliffe, Myra Hindley etc etc bring up their progeny to be serial killers/murders?

Herr and Frau Hitler responsible for a wayward Adolf? That nasty pair Mr & Mrs Pol Pot.

[Rykbanlor]

JohnThailandJohn,

If you are only playing Devils advocate then I can understand......ish

If you really have an unshakeable faith in the Cops, then I can't

[StealthEnergiser]

Everybody forgets that DNA evidence only proves they are connected to the the victim it does not prove they have commited the crime

Their semen was in one of the victims.

Which means absolutely nothing when you have a contaminated crime scene like this one with alleged mafia persons on the crime scene standing next to a body.

And no forensic expert .

You have no clue what contamination means. Their semen didn't get into the victim by contamination.

You have no clue who was there but what can be logically assumed is the people who collected the DNA were trained to do so as well as the folks testing the DNA.

The only way it could not be their semen is if authorities are lying about the match which would come out in court or there is a big conspiracy involving many people and entities.

For unknown reasons you seem to just want to close your eyes to reality.

why was one of the alleged persons on the crime scene do you think thats ok also.

I still say you have an agenda that is to put the burden wholly on these you men and try to push the blame away from the real killers.

Did you have a look at the crime scene pictures to position this lady was left in.

[StealthEnergiser]

Everybody forgets that DNA evidence only proves they are connected to the the victim it does not prove they have commited the crime

Their semen was in one of the victims.

Which means absolutely nothing when you have a contaminated crime scene like this one with alleged mafia persons on the crime scene standing next to a body.

And no forensic expert .

You have no clue what contamination means. Their semen didn't get into the victim by contamination.

You have no clue who was there but what can be logically assumed is the people who collected the DNA were trained to do so as well as the folks testing the DNA.

The only way it could not be their semen is if authorities are lying about the match which would come out in court or there is a big conspiracy involving many people and entities.

For unknown reasons you seem to just want to close your eyes to reality.

why was one of the alleged persons on the crime scene do you think thats ok also.

I still say you have an agenda that is to put the burden wholly on these you men and try to push the blame away from the real killers.

Did you have a look at the crime scene pictures to position this lady was left in.

[inzman]

What is pretty obvious is the son of the headman won't give DNA. That clinches it!

[transam]

I think we have "plants" here....................BUT, they are soooooooooooooooooo daft I must laugh uncontrollably.........

[inzman]

Also the Burmese boys gave DNA initially that proved their innocence. Now the rtp have their DNA. Easy to use to frame them. Btw. JTJ sure talks like a plant.

[CapFarmer]

Everybody forgets that DNA evidence only proves they are connected to the the victim it does not prove they have commited the crime

Their semen was in one of the victims.

Which means absolutely nothing when you have a contaminated crime scene like this one with alleged mafia persons on the crime scene standing next to a body.

And no forensic expert .

You have no clue what contamination means. Their semen didn't get into the victim by contamination.

You have no clue who was there but what can be logically assumed is the people who collected the DNA were trained to do so as well as the folks testing the DNA.

The only way it could not be their semen is if authorities are lying about the match which would come out in court or there is a big conspiracy involving many people and entities.

For unknown reasons you seem to just want to close your eyes to reality.

To assume that the people that collected the DNA were trained would be totally illogical, as Thailand's top forensics expert, among others, has stated. It is a fact that the crime scene was contaminated prior to and during police gathering (or possibly planting) of evidence. The crime scene contamination was photographed live as it happened and the evidence printed in photographs in major media publications across the globe. The fact that the police allowed suspects onto the crime scene is negligence that should be prosecuted. The police have made so many contradictory statements about the "DNA evidence" that the only logical assumption possible at this point is that the police have either intentionally, or by their incompetence, made the case totally impossible to prosecute fairly.

[Rykbanlor]

EXACTLY!

[Robby nz]

Everybody forgets that DNA evidence only proves they are connected to the the victim it does not prove they have commited the crime

Their semen was in one of the victims.

Which means absolutely nothing when you have a contaminated crime scene like this one with alleged mafia persons on the crime scene standing next to a body.

And no forensic expert .

You have no clue what contamination means. Their semen didn't get into the victim by contamination.

You have no clue who was there but what can be logically assumed is the people who collected the DNA were trained to do so as well as the folks testing the DNA.

The only way it could not be their semen is if authorities are lying about the match which would come out in court or there is a big conspiracy involving many people and entities.

For unknown reasons you seem to just want to close your eyes to reality.

There was semen found in the body of the victim, if I remember correctly in 2 places.

It was not identified as their semen in the first round of DNA testing.

It was only after the second time they were tested that the police said there was a DNA match.

Therefor there has to be a question as to why it was not matched the first time.

There is also the very short time it took to test the DNA when they were tested the second time.

Then there is the condom which was at first said to have the victims DNA on the outside and nothing on the inside.

Later it was said that sperm from the 2 accused was also found on the outside of the condom.

The question there is why was there no sperm found on the condom to start with.

Also who used the condom if it wasn't the accused ?

This suggests a third person was involved in the rape.

And if it is the accused's sperm on the condom he must have raped the victim after the 2 accused.

And why was there no DNA of any sort on the inside ?

The only way this could happen is if 2 condoms were used one on top of the other.

So many unanswered questions must leave doubt.

[spidermike007]

We want the truth!!

Until then... BOYCOT KOH TAO!

You're absolutely right everyone should boycott Thailand until the truth is revealed. That should go for all the expats ... time they stopped moaning about things and took action by leaving.

I am quite happy with my life in Thailand. I plan on visiting KT on my next long break from work to visit friends.

You are welcome to stay away though.

Don´t forget to eat a pancake

and have a good laugh with Mon at suree beach

And you are one of the few people on this forum that would lend support to the crocodile families. You have such a poor and surly attitude. The only real power we have is to withdraw support. By visiting you are condoning the baby crocodiles behavior.

[JohnThailandJohn]

JohnThailandJohn,

If you are only playing Devils advocate then I can understand......ish

If you really have an unshakeable faith in the Cops, then I can't

Their semen was found in the victim. How would this be playing devil's advocate? What I am not playing is conspiracy theories based on things people don;t know because we are not part of the investigation or has ALL the evidence been presented in trial or has the police and autopsy report been made public or has the defense been able to put on their case.

A number of damning evidence has been mentioned to date against these two with the biggest being their semen matching the two semen samples identified and collected from the victim. The only way this could not be true is if the police are lying to the press about the match which would come out in trial or there is a vast conspiracy by many people and entities to set these two up.

No devil's advocate, just reality. Nothing to suggest this crime was motivated by money except rich people exist and no reason to believe a kid the cops confirmed was in Bangkok at the time had anything to do with this unless of course their is another vast conspiracy by numerous other people to say he was in Bangkok when he wasn't.

Devils advocate would be suggesting a well-off island family can control the entire justice system in Thailand as well as labs and universities all the way up to the PM ... and of course do this for unknown reasons as there is no evidence to suggest they were involved and regardless if crime committed by Thai or immigrant workers doesn't make Thailand look and better or worse.

Edited October 25, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[engr1dgf]

John Thailand John.

I just gotta confirm something.

You are satisfied with the evidence released by the Police. You have absolutely no reason to doubt them, whether it be for this shaky case or the reputation they have built up as a whole.

I have gone through my life with a healthy contempt of conspiracy theories. I have lived in Thailand for 13 years. There is an enormous shadow of a doubt in this case. Most things start as 'RUMOURS' until they are corroborated. The Police won't corroborate. So these remain rumours for now. It seems like the whole country is abuzzz with rumours.

You say that conspiracy theorists jump from one point to the next when something is disproven. Thats true. But seems like the Police have been doing the same thing, changing the points that have been picked out.

The fact that a forensic pathologist was never used at the crime scene and that members of the public, some that were later suspects, were all over the scene suggests the DNA evidence may be useless, tampered with. The Police have tampered with evidence in the past.

Do you think the Thai Police don't beat suspects? Being seen earlier in the evening near the scene is damning evidence?

Why do I bother? You are going to deflect somehow, ignoring all of this and I can't be bothered wasting my time making this post more comprehensive.

You are welcome to your opinion mate, I just don't fully understand why you are so vehemently convinced of it.

I'll admit that I can't know for sure the Burmen didn't do it, but everything surrounding this case makes it so highly doubtful.

But you seem so sure.

Most of what you read and hear on the news and the web is "jump to quick conlusions to get the story out first" resulting in a lot of miss quoted, wrong, not verified information.

Just wait and see what the DNA tests show, knowing that it will now be also looked over by the British authorities. Forget the confession, re-cant of such, police beating, etc. This is either all BS, wrong or no different than what goes on in any other country. Just wait and see

[MJP]

A post has been removed.

[spidermike007]

No matter the kind of Torture i am receiving, i cannot confess to the crime i did not commit.

Stop smoking that shit it's bad for you.

A statement like that could only have been uttered by someone who has never been tortured. Have you ever felt a 220 volt electrical shock? Well how about 30 of them? Back to back. In your crotch or on your face? The kind of man required to resist a confession under that kind of duress, is simply someone i doubt you are. Please let us know how any times you have been tortured and when you have stuck to your lofty principals.

[JohnThailandJohn]

How Conspiracy Theories Work ... http://people.howstuffworks.com/conspiracy-theory.htm

Why Rational People Buy Into Conspiracy Theories ... http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/why-rational-people-buy-into-conspiracy-theories.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Conspiracy Theorists Arent Really Skeptics .... http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/11/conspiracy_theory_psychology_people_who_claim_to_know_the_truth_about_jfk.html

Why People Believe in Conspiracy Theories .... http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-people-believe-conspiracy-theories/

Why conspiracy theories persist... http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/04/21/cass-sunstein-explains-why-people-believe-conspiracy-theories

[spidermike007]

With all the media heat that is on the headmans son, if it was me I would stand up and take a DNA test to prove my innocence.

Yes, but only if you are innocent. He is not innocent.

[spidermike007]

Look at those simple people. Have they brought up their sons to become rapists and murderers??

I refuse to believe it.

Please keep posting, so the two guys (together with Hannah and David) are never forgotten!!

I have serious misgivings re the whole investigation thus far but that is hogwash of the highest order

Do you think the parents of Fred West, Ian Huntley, Peter Sutcliffe, Myra Hindley etc etc bring up their progeny to be serial killers/murders?

Herr and Frau Hitler responsible for a wayward Adolf? That nasty pair Mr & Mrs Pol Pot.

Wow. Mr. and Mrs. Pol Pot. Mr. and Mrs. Hitler. Quite the legacy. Talk about pride. Mr. AC Bar. Not on the same level, but he created a monster nonetheless.

[Rykbanlor]

JohnThailandJohn,

If you are only playing Devils advocate then I can understand......ish

If you really have an unshakeable faith in the Cops, then I can't

Their semen was found in the victim. How would this be playing devil's advocate? What I am not playing is conspiracy theories based on things people don;t know because we are not part of the investigation or has ALL the evidence been presented in trial or has the police and autopsy report been made public or has the defense been able to put on their case.

A number of damning evidence has been mentioned to date against these two with the biggest being their semen matching the two semen samples identified and collected from the victim. The only way this could not be true is if the police are lying to the press about the match which would come out in trial or there is a vast conspiracy by many people and entities to set these two up.

No devil's advocate, just reality. Nothing to suggest this crime was motivated by money except rich people exist and no reason to believe a kid the cops confirmed was in Bangkok at the time had anything to do with this unless of course their is another vast conspiracy by numerous other people to say he was in Bangkok when he wasn't.

Devils advocate would be suggesting a well-off island family can control the entire justice system in Thailand as well as labs and universities all the way up to the PM ... and of course do this for unknown reasons as there is no evidence to suggest they were involved and regardless if crime committed by Thai or immigrant workers doesn't make Thailand look and better or worse.

I was going to say, we shall see! But I really wonder if we ever will.

Agree to disagree

[twix38]

I can't be bothered to read all the pages since my post, but the first couple of replies missed my point re DNA.

Firstly the two specifics items of concern for UK police on being sent here were DNA and the alledged treatment/torture.

Re DNA, my question was that any way the UK tries to check the DNA against the Burmese boys will be tainted IF the BIB used the first very early round of collecting DNA from some 200 people on Koh Tao (which included the Burmese boys) but rather than concentrating on looking for real suspects they were concentrating on creating convenient non-thai suspects as patsies to plant their DNA. Therefore the bodies (Hannah) has had the Burmese boys DNA inserted/applied by the BIB way before their bodies were shipped back to UK. If the UK police collect Burmese DNA whilst in Thailand in order to independently match to DNA taken from bodies now in UK, it would in that case match due to BIB having planted Burmese DNA very early on. It is not as simple as assuming that because we now have the bodies/evidence we can provide untainted and accurate DNA matching and I feared that may be what the UK police were looking to do and to announce that they could confirm independent DNA they had collected from the Burmese pair does indeed match the DNA independently found from Hannah by UK forensics investigation. That would still leave me with exactly the same uncertainty if that's all that happens.

Edited October 25, 2014 by twix38

[JohnThailandJohn]

No matter the kind of Torture i am receiving, i cannot confess to the crime i did not commit.

Stop smoking that shit it's bad for you.

A statement like that could only have been uttered by someone who has never been tortured. Have you ever felt a 220 volt electrical shock? Well how about 30 of them? Back to back. In your crotch or on your face? The kind of man required to resist a confession under that kind of duress, is simply someone i doubt you are. Please let us know how any times you have been tortured and when you have stuck to your lofty principals.

Are you suggesting these things occurred to the suspects? Understand if you are just arguing the above comment but best I can see the worst torture these two suspects were met with was threats. I would not be surprised at all if they were treated illegally to get the confessions but if true it doesn't make the confessions untrue but rather makes them inadmissible in court. On the other hand, the did in a private meeting with their embassy staff, embassy lawyers and a human rights group confess too while also adding they were abused. The confessions will not make or break this case, the DNA is key along with other evidence putting them in and around the scene at the time and their being in possession of one of the victim's property and the witness who claims they gave him this property to destroy.

My personal belief is they will plead guilty and the recantation of the confession is more of a legal move to remove this from evidence since it may have been obtained illegally. The lawyers also are playing to the public as police do. The more they can make this case a problem for officials, despite any obvious guilt, the better chance they have to get reduced sentences if they plead guilty.

Edited October 25, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[Gweiloman]

JohnThailandJohn,

If you are only playing Devils advocate then I can understand......ish

If you really have an unshakeable faith in the Cops, then I can't

Their semen was found in the victim. How would this be playing devil's advocate? What I am not playing is conspiracy theories based on things people don;t know because we are not part of the investigation or has ALL the evidence been presented in trial or has the police and autopsy report been made public or has the defense been able to put on their case.

A number of damning evidence has been mentioned to date against these two with the biggest being their semen matching the two semen samples identified and collected from the victim. The only way this could not be true is if the police are lying to the press about the match which would come out in trial or there is a vast conspiracy by many people and entities to set these two up.

No devil's advocate, just reality. Nothing to suggest this crime was motivated by money except rich people exist and no reason to believe a kid the cops confirmed was in Bangkok at the time had anything to do with this unless of course their is another vast conspiracy by numerous other people to say he was in Bangkok when he wasn't.

Devils advocate would be suggesting a well-off island family can control the entire justice system in Thailand as well as labs and universities all the way up to the PM ... and of course do this for unknown reasons as there is no evidence to suggest they were involved and regardless if crime committed by Thai or immigrant workers doesn't make Thailand look and better or worse.

I recall the RTP claiming that there was a DNA match. I don't recall reading anywhere that they said they matched the suspects's DNA to the semen found in the victim.

Apart from the claim above, I don't recall coming across any other damning evidence. The phone that was thrown into the bushes close to the suspects' hut? Numerous witnesses? (only you have claimed this so far). CCTV evidence? (again, only you have claimed this so far). There isn't any damning evidence released by the police, other than the claimed DNA match (and don't even try to bring up the confession).

Where did anyone say that this crime was motivated by money? (another deflection perhaps?). The claims on social media are that the crime is being covered up by money. See the difference? Cops confimed kid was in Bangkok - except that other than you, no one believes this confirmation.

Well off family controlling the entire justice system. Yet another deflection. Operative term is not well off but "influence" and "connections". Who knows what knowledge this family has that could hurt a lot of people much higher up the chain?

Above is all pure speculation of course, but isn't that what internet forums are for?