Parents say their sons are innocent but beaten to confess

[retsdon]

Interestingly, there's quite a lot out there on the interpretation of DNA evidence. Seemingly it's not the infallible smoking gun that the general public would like to believe. 'Highly subjective' was the term used in one report, and in one case the DNA evidence used to secure a conviction in the States was subsequently sent to seventeen accredited experts. Only one put the convicted guy in the frame, twelve put him out of it, and the rest deemed the evidence to be inconclusive.

Seeing as DNA evidence would - aside from the now retracted confessions - appear to be pretty much all that the Thai police now have against the accused, maybe that's why the prosecution keep sending the case back to the police. Certainly the British Crown Prosecution state unequivocally that they will not bring a case to court on DNA evidence alone. It's too unreliable.

I thought it interesting anyway. A quick Google search on DNA reliability will throw up a load of links.

Apologies for linking to my own post but a scenario just occurred to me that kind of fits with what seems to be happening.

The DNA samples from these two came back as 'possible' matches (very common apparently), but the sample from the 3rd suspect was a total no. It's enough for the RTP, who believe that if they can get confessions to go along with the 'possible' match, it'll be enough. The public think DNA evidence is infallible anyway. They let the third guy go, and take these two off to a 'safe' house where, come hell or high water, they're going to get their confessions. And so they do. The police now announce that it's an open and shut case and pat themsleves on the back.

But the confessions get retracted, and now all that they're left with is a a coupe of 'possible' matches that a half decent defence lawyer will rip to bits. It would have been enough if the case hadn't been so high profile, but now these guys are sure to be getting proper council to defend them. The state prosecution service can see what's coming down the pike, and baulk at going into court with such questionable evidence.

So the case stalls and that's where we are today. Pure speculation of course, but it fits the facts.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Not many people live in a village that has had 2 innocent people with smashed skulls (at least 1 anyway) by crazy people who did it just because they thought they could get away with it because they can and are it seems.......its not just what happened..2 murders but is actually the way it happened......if the burmese are guilty which has not been proved yet then ok the Island may be ok to visit but really who can go there and feel comfortable at this point when this evil deed has not been proved to be concluded......i for one dont believe they did it alone as 2 small guys killing 2 falangs seems very odd with all other points mentioned earlier like police saying they know who did it after first few days and have fled island(one at least) then changing to other stories(after actually receiving money),none of us know the truth as none of us were there BUT it is definitely mysterious due to conflicting reports!!! by Thai Police and with first hand knowledge of Thai Police then i am inclined not to believe a word from them.

I get your point but my guess is this incident will probably increase tourism there. Most people don't believe they will be a victim of a crime like this and people tend to understand bad peopleand things can be found anywhere. There would be desolate places all over the world if people didn't go there because a murder happened there and nobody had yet been convicted.

My reason for thinking tourism will increase is because it put the place on the map and now divers and others will consider a trip there. In the interim others may be hoping it will be less crowded now and others actually probably want to see the death location and other areas involved (a lot of people into this type of thing). I personally know two couples that have gone there (1 actually going next week) since the incident because they have never been and the publicity of the event brought it to their mind as a place to try.

Think Phuket and what has happened to tourism there since the Tsunami.

What?

Not many people choose or spend multi thousand of dollars on a holiday destination because of disasters or crimes they want to take a selfi at.

Are you for real or did you forget to take the meds this morning ?

You must be be of Thai decent to even think like this....

Tourism to the island is by far not limited to people coming from other continents let alone other countries.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

The interrogators told them to confess to the crime, and threatened to cut off their limbs, put them in a bag, and dump them in a river if they did not.

The police also threatened to tie the two boys to a tire, pour petrol on it, and set it alight"

Threaten to "necklace" me and I'll confess to anything you want.

I hate bullies.

[MJP]

This is going way off-topic in the most bizarro of ways.

[Heisenberg01]

This is going way off-topic in the most bizarro of ways.

Thats because of old John, i dont know whats worse, his agenda or the people replying to him keeping it alive.

Just checking in after a hard days graft from the UK, and having to wade through bullshit and dickswinging to find any real developments.

[Gweiloman]

Well, I don't know know about you guys but I've scrolled through the last 4-5 pages at record speeds without bothering to read any individual post, but just to see who's been posting. My guesstimate is that about 30-40% of the posts are by either JTJ or JD.

Both of them are now on my ignore list so hopefully, after a good night's sleep, I will be able to wake up to some informative posts.

Good night all!

[englishoak]

I get your point but my guess is this incident will probably increase tourism there. Most people don't believe they will be a victim of a crime like this and people tend to understand bad peopleand things can be found anywhere. There would be desolate places all over the world if people didn't go there because a murder happened there and nobody had yet been convicted.

My reason for thinking tourism will increase is because it put the place on the map and now divers and others will consider a trip there. In the interim others may be hoping it will be less crowded now and others actually probably want to see the death location and other areas involved (a lot of people into this type of thing). I personally know two couples that have gone there (1 actually going next week) since the incident because they have never been and the publicity of the event brought it to their mind as a place to try.

Think Phuket and what has happened to tourism there since the Tsunami.

What?

Not many people choose or spend multi thousand of dollars on a holiday destination because of disasters or crimes they want to take a selfi at.

Are you for real or did you forget to take the meds this morning ?

Tourism to the island is by far not limited to people coming from other continents let alone other countries.

Indeed its not but all the same not even most other countries pick a holiday location due to murders or disasters.

If tourism was to increase it would more likely be , time and economics of populations disposable wealth that would make the difference.

It most certainly is not an interest in Horror tours or danger from unsolved rapes or murders...

When a country finally hits a defining moment with tourism thats it..... its pretty hard to get the reputation and it tends to look after itself once its become renowned, often it proves resilient despite problems .... This weve seen here long with the moniker teflon Thailand.... But...

There is always a tipping point and then things dont get fixed so easily and the reputation that kept people coming can keep people away.... Thailand's reputation visibly is about as bad as its been for decades.

But back on topic because i know your interested... a simple Q for you, do you believe any of the claims from the 2 Burmese regarding torture, threats etc ? just curious

[MJP]

An off-topic post has been removed.

[JohnThailandJohn]

But back on topic because i know your interested... a simple Q for you, do you believe any of the claims from the 2 Burmese regarding torture, threats etc ? just curious

I would not be surprised at all if they were mistreated. I currently don't believe they were "physically tortured" though they may have been handled roughly and threatened. According to the parents who went and visited one of them, he said they confessed due to "threats of torture".

I would not be at all surprised if the police got confession through threats. The only doubt I would really have about the confessions being obtained in an illegal way is police knew how much scrutiny and under a microscope this case was under.

Although there could be an explanation, one thing I am not seeing why they would also confess to the crimes to their embassy, lawyers and a human rights group later in a private meeting without police present where they also said they were abused.

Regardless, I believe the confessions should almost surely be thrown out simply because of the suspects claims of threats unless police recorded them in full and can show there was no mistreatment. I believe this should be the case everywhere given there is technology readily available to record interrogations. Because of this, I am suspect of confessions got by any police department across the globe that are not recorded.

Edit: as for tourism damage to Koh Tao --- never did I suggest people would solely come to Thailand to see a crime scene ... just as people don't go to California to take the murder tour bus but many do while they are there. I also was clear in saying this was just one reason people might go in the near term. Although not stated I was talking more about local tourism which makes up a much bigger junk of tourism in Thailand than most people realize.

Edited October 25, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[MJP]

Inflammatory post removed. Please use some common sense and decency when posting.

[rhythmworx]

If anyone has Inflammation I would recommend some form of Non Steroidal Anti Inflammatory such as Ibuprofen.

Just a heads if for the inflamed people here.

[MJP]

If anyone has Inflammation I would recommend some form of Non Steroidal Anti Inflammatory such as Ibuprofen.

Just a heads if for the inflamed people here.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inflammatory

Are there virtual creams available?

[englishoak]

But back on topic because i know your interested... a simple Q for you, do you believe any of the claims from the 2 Burmese regarding torture, threats etc ? just curious

I would not be surprised at all if they were mistreated. I currently don't believe they were "physically tortured" though they may have been handled roughly and threatened. According to the parents who went and visited one of them, he said they confessed due to "threats of torture".

I would not be at all surprised if the police got confession through threats. The only doubt I would really have about the confessions being obtained in an illegal way is police know how much scrutiny and under a microscope this case was under.

Although there could be an explanation, on thing I am not seeing why they would also confess to the crimes to their embassy, lawyers and a human rights group later in a private meeting without police present where they also said they were abused.

Regardless, I believe the confessions should almost surely be thrown out simply because of the suspects claims of threats unless police recorded them in full and can show there was no mistreatment. I believe this should be the case everywhere given there is technology readily available to record interrogations. Because of this, I am suspect of confessions got by any police department across the globe.

Edit: as for tourism damage to Koh Tao --- never did I suggest people would solely come to Thailand to see a crime scene ... just as people don't go to California to take the murder tour bus but many do while they are there. I also was clear in saying this was just one reason people might go in the near term. Although not stated I was talking more about local tourism which makes up a much bigger junk of tourism in Thailand than most people realize.

Thanks for a topical reply

OK so when does a threat of harm become classed as torture ? It dosnt have to be physical, im sure they were slapped about, its almost routine for the RTP but torture can be mental too and thats why threats are used, to cause mental anguish and the thought of the threat being carried out is believable.

if a British police said that most would likely just say BS and confess to nothing knowing it was obviously just a ruse to extract a confession but.....These kids are Burmese, ergo they would likely have the same opinion and fears of the RTP as they would of their own police/army in their country... given the record Myanmar has of inflicting beatings and killings on their own people in these kids lifetime I can only see the kids totally believing the threats could turn real....

As for the case I dont believe these confessions can now be taken seriously either, however it is also for that reason it is VITAL to have the DNA looked at by others, for the sole reason if nothing else to know for certain of their part or not.

yes i know gruesome tours exist, we have them in the UK too like Cambodia have the killing fields. but thats historical history type tours, I cant see any people other than freaks coming to look at saree beach for that reason. Thais might but they dont like bad spirits, I dont know many Thai who would go there with the way things are atm. For that matter I cant see other Asians being comfortable there either.

final footnote...

The Thai press is no doubt guilty of making things up, misquoting, mistranslating and others no doubt use it from time to time to that effect since its always in question if the press quotes people properly or not... some of the contradictions and strange things said in tandem has indeed seemed wacky at times.

[spidermike007]

All I have wanted is to see and hear both sides I admit I do not know the law in both countries when something like this happens. I also wanted to put my point of view across as a parent as I can feel for both sets of parents the accused and the victims.

The law in Thailand clearly states that when you murder two innocent people in cold blood, you are to held responsible, arrested, tried, and convicted if found guilty. Nowhere in the Thai law, does it state that if your father is super rich, you can get away with anything, and that you are entirely above the law. Nowhere in the law does it state that a scapegoat will be found in your place. Nowhere in the law does it say the government will do anything in its power to protect the rich and powerful, and to avoid upsetting the status quo, the elite, or the well connected. And this from the army no less. One would have expected more from the guys who claim they are trying to clean up the country. Clean up yes, change the order of society, no. Make some small arrests yet, go after the big guns, no. Male a lot of noise, yes. Upset the fundamentals of the power structure, no.

[spidermike007]

Not many people live in a village that has had 2 innocent people with smashed skulls (at least 1 anyway) by crazy people who did it just because they thought they could get away with it because they can and are it seems.......its not just what happened..2 murders but is actually the way it happened......if the burmese are guilty which has not been proved yet then ok the Island may be ok to visit but really who can go there and feel comfortable at this point when this evil deed has not been proved to be concluded......i for one dont believe they did it alone as 2 small guys killing 2 falangs seems very odd with all other points mentioned earlier like police saying they know who did it after first few days and have fled island(one at least) then changing to other stories(after actually receiving money),none of us know the truth as none of us were there BUT it is definitely mysterious due to conflicting reports!!! by Thai Police and with first hand knowledge of Thai Police then i am inclined not to believe a word from them.

I get your point but my guess is this incident will probably increase tourism there. Most people don't believe they will be a victim of a crime like this and people tend to understand bad peopleand things can be found anywhere. There would be desolate places all over the world if people didn't go there because a murder happened there and nobody had yet been convicted.

My reason for thinking tourism will increase is because it put the place on the map and now divers and others will consider a trip there. In the interim others may be hoping it will be less crowded now and others actually probably want to see the death location and other areas involved (a lot of people into this type of thing). I personally know two couples that have gone there (1 actually going next week) since the incident because they have never been and the publicity of the event brought it to their mind as a place to try.

Think Phuket and what has happened to tourism there since the Tsunami.

I could not disagree more. I think tourism will suffer. First of all the diving in Tao really, really sucks. Some of the worst in the world. Good for the gulf, but that is not saying much. If you have five or six meters of visibility, you are lucky. Also, it is crowded with hundreds and hundreds of other divers. And the accommodations are very overpriced. I learned to dive there, and once I started diving elsewhere, I realized how bad it was. The gulf is very degraded. Plus, there is massive runoff from the rivers upcountry.

I think there are many people, like me. who will never return. And who will discourage their friends from going. Koh Phangan has everything Tao does, minus the crocodile ruling families, the crappy diving, and the overpriced accommodations. Plus, it is easier to get to. A blight on those horrific families, who have done so little for their people, despite being given hundreds of millions of dollars, by a super corrupt government official way back when, who committed one of the most ignorant acts in Thai history, by granting them the lease concession for the entire island, for peanuts. An error of Shakespearean proportions. And one the army refuses to undo. Let us maintain the status quo, please.

[kiwikeith]

Boycott the island, then the Russians can take it over completely.

The first lawyer that talked to the 2 Burmese was got rid of and I thought he said he observed bad bruising on these boys.

It also has taken some time to charge them, time for the wounds to get better.

In other countries this case would be thrown out the DNA cloud, what did they use from the burmese boys? did they force semen out of them.

The DNA cloud needs to be opened up by experts but this has not been done , and now a black cloud hangs over the RTP and Koh Toh and Thailand

.All the Thai people that I talk to do not believe that the poor scapegoats did this.

Time for the RTP to save face while they still can if they don't Koh Toh and Thailand is stained badly for ever.

[GOLDBUGGY]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

some heavy accusations being made elsewhere

Where? Give us a clue?

Have a look at Andy Hall on twitter

Some heavy accusations indeed. Being threatened with being burned alive would make me admit that my real name is Donald Duck and that I live on Saturn with my pet Ewok, Ronald.

Still, they are only accusations. I personally think the two lads are innocent (probably anyway), but I'm reserving judgement until we hear what Scotland Yard has to say (no i don't fully trust the RTP, sorry).

Well Donald, there is another reason why they would confess, and you, which does not involve being burnt on a stake.

In Thailand, when you confess to a crime the sentence is usually cut in half. On a murder charge, a confession could mean the difference between the Death Penalty, or Life in Prison. Now let's put you in there position.

Suppose for a moment it was you who committed this crime. You are now arrested and sitting in the Police Station. The Police then inform you (rightfully) that if you don't confess to this crime, and are found guilty in a court of law, you very well could get the Death Penalty. Where a confession would more likely get you Life in Prison.

They then begin to show you the evidence they have against you. Eye witnesses that place you at or near the crime scene during the time of death. DNA evidence that places you where the bodies were discovered. DNA evidence of you taken from Hanna's Body, where you could not possibly be unless you did this crime. And finally, they play a tape recording of your partner in crime from another room admitting to everything you both had done and how you and he committed this crime.

Now let me ask you my friend. If you did commit this crime, and now are faced to confessing it, and possibly getting Life in Prison, or saying you are not guilty, even with all this evidence against you and with almost certainty that you would get the Death Penalty, what would you do? Well...if you are not sure let me help you.

You would Quake like a Duck! No pun intended! You would confess and plead guilty and hope for the best, and just like they did. You can bet your Sweet Patoonies on that one my friend. It is pretty obvious that the lawyers are trying to get these confession throw out of court, but did you ever wonder why?

These confessions were made prior to the Prosecution laying down charges, and thus they have no deal with them. So their clients could very well still get the Death Sentence. So they are stirring up the Hornet's Nest, and using public media and sympathy, to put pressure on the Prosecution. They now would look very foolish to the world if they lost this case on some technicality.

So what they are hoping for, and trying to get, is the Prosecution to drop the Death Penalty Charge and go for Life In Prison instead, in return for new confessions. There is just too much evidence against them to do otherwise. And by the looks of things now, they might succeed and get what they want.

[outboard]

John Thailand John.

I just gotta confirm something.

You are satisfied with the evidence released by the Police. You have absolutely no reason to doubt them, whether it be for this shaky case or the reputation they have built up as a whole.

I have gone through my life with a healthy contempt of conspiracy theories. I have lived in Thailand for 13 years. There is an enormous shadow of a doubt in this case. Most things start as 'RUMOURS' until they are corroborated. The Police won't corroborate. So these remain rumours for now. It seems like the whole country is abuzzz with rumours.

You say that conspiracy theorists jump from one point to the next when something is disproven. Thats true. But seems like the Police have been doing the same thing, changing the points that have been picked out.

The fact that a forensic pathologist was never used at the crime scene and that members of the public, some that were later suspects, were all over the scene suggests the DNA evidence may be useless, tampered with. The Police have tampered with evidence in the past.

Do you think the Thai Police don't beat suspects? Being seen earlier in the evening near the scene is damning evidence?

Why do I bother? You are going to deflect somehow, ignoring all of this and I can't be bothered wasting my time making this post more comprehensive.

You are welcome to your opinion mate, I just don't fully understand why you are so vehemently convinced of it.

I'll admit that I can't know for sure the Burmen didn't do it, but everything surrounding this case makes it so highly doubtful.

But you seem so sure.

John , like you and everyone else on this forum has no access to any evidence

so many people on these forum are convinced that these guys are innocent and that the thai police are fitting up scape goats and in fact this forum is full of some of the most Thai hating people I have ever come across, it is had to believe that this is a Thai x-pat site

Strange that you got that after only 13 posts.

I do not get that impression at ALL.

Maybe give it a bit more of a shot before you start throwing knives mate.

Just a thought !

oh i should have said logical thinkers, like you , who thinks posting a lot is proof of reading a lot

[JohnThailandJohn]

But back on topic because i know your interested... a simple Q for you, do you believe any of the claims from the 2 Burmese regarding torture, threats etc ? just curious

I would not be surprised at all if they were mistreated. I currently don't believe they were "physically tortured" though they may have been handled roughly and threatened. According to the parents who went and visited one of them, he said they confessed due to "threats of torture".

I would not be at all surprised if the police got confession through threats. The only doubt I would really have about the confessions being obtained in an illegal way is police know how much scrutiny and under a microscope this case was under.

Although there could be an explanation, on thing I am not seeing why they would also confess to the crimes to their embassy, lawyers and a human rights group later in a private meeting without police present where they also said they were abused.

Regardless, I believe the confessions should almost surely be thrown out simply because of the suspects claims of threats unless police recorded them in full and can show there was no mistreatment. I believe this should be the case everywhere given there is technology readily available to record interrogations. Because of this, I am suspect of confessions got by any police department across the globe.

Edit: as for tourism damage to Koh Tao --- never did I suggest people would solely come to Thailand to see a crime scene ... just as people don't go to California to take the murder tour bus but many do while they are there. I also was clear in saying this was just one reason people might go in the near term. Although not stated I was talking more about local tourism which makes up a much bigger junk of tourism in Thailand than most people realize.

Thanks for a topical reply

OK so when does a threat of harm become classed as torture ? It dosnt have to be physical, im sure they were slapped about, its almost routine for the RTP but torture can be mental too and thats why threats are used, to cause mental anguish and the thought of the threat being carried out is believable.

if a British police said that most would likely just say BS and confess to nothing knowing it was obviously just a ruse to extract a confession but.....These kids are Burmese, ergo they would likely have the same opinion and fears of the RTP as they would of their own police/army in their country... given the record Myanmar has of inflicting beatings and killings on their own people in these kids lifetime I can only see the kids totally believing the threats could turn real....

As for the case I dont believe these confessions can now be taken seriously either, however it is also for that reason it is VITAL to have the DNA looked at by others, for the sole reason if nothing else to know for certain of their part or not.

yes i know gruesome tours exist, we have them in the UK too like Cambodia have the killing fields. but thats historical history type tours, I cant see any people other than freaks coming to look at saree beach for that reason. Thais might but they dont like bad spirits, I dont know many Thai who would go there with the way things are atm. For that matter I cant see other Asians being comfortable there either.

final footnote...

The Thai press is no doubt guilty of making things up, misquoting, mistranslating and others no doubt use it from time to time to that effect since its always in question if the press quotes people properly or not... some of the contradictions and strange things said in tandem has indeed seemed wacky at times.

I am not going to split hairs on what is and is not torture, listed to enough of that for years in the US. But again, I say throw out the confessions with any claims by the suspects they were mistreated unless the cops can prove they weren't (recorded).

DNA -- let me now as you a question. Do you believe the cops at the crime scene or pre-medical exam planted the suspects DNA and semen?

There are so many logical reasons why this would be near impossible and make no sense but it is the only plausible way you can believe the police are lying about the DNA match unless of course they are just lying and there was no match and come trial this would clearly come out and think the prosecutors would know this by now too.

So, barring they all conspired to set these two up or there is going to be a huge story coming out any day that there was never a DNA match we have to accept there was a match, even if it was a BS match not from the victim or suspect (they replaced actual DNA), right?

I am not going to get into all the details of everyone involved in the process but the bottom line this would involve a conspiracy so great and gran with so many people who never heard of the headsman from Koh Tao and have no fear at all of him that is just makes this a ridiculous notion.

The gist of it is that early on the original samples collected are cataloged were sent to a lab or labs for a DNA report. This results are shared with numerous people and backed up on other computers. Numerous people in the lab would have been involved in the testing and likely different people involved with testing different samples that they said early on matched. Some of these people that were shared the information was a number of universities (i believe it was 3) as they were involved with comparing the DNA to the hundreds of samples they were collecting from people on the island. Even with the universities help, they couldn't process all the samples for comparisons and there was a big backlog. But each one of these labs has numerous people who had access to the original DNA report and numerous computers were these results were stored.

Point being is there is no way to undue the results of the initial DNA tests from the victims and crime scene. Too many people have these results and they are located in too many places. Any attempt to change them in one place would set off alarms at others.

The second part is as long as the suspects bodies are around, there DNA will be here. If they are innocent then their lawyers have already taken their DNA or at minimum that of their family and will certainly have it compared to that original DNA probably at all the labs and probably at no charge since most people want to know for sure the truth. Regardless of how corrupt the police are, they are not so stupid as to believe this would not happen while planning this conspiracy.

As for some other country retesting and verifying results, it is just not the way things are done here or anywhere else no matter how much public outcry. I won't even get into all the reasons why but no country is going to put itself in the position of needing to depend on another country to gain their own public trust. Every time there was doubt in the future they'd once again need to do this for not just the public but every defendant and they then would no longer be a sovereign nation. Thailand has no problem asking for help, like many countries, and have invited both UK and US authorities to help or be involved in criminal investigations where they needed help to solve. Having another country confirm what Thailand can and has already has done is a completely different story. Like it or not and regardless if it makes it tough for people to accept, this is just the way things are done across the globe.

Besides, the only way another country can retest is if they have the original sperm from the victim and if they test and the results confirm then people will simply say the Thai police replaced the original specimens ... So, what really would be the point.

Edited October 25, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[CNXTim]

That treatment is NOT without precedent.

In the meantime, the real culprit(s) move further and further out of grasp.

[Dogmatix]

Intellectually I have a problem with this whole tragic affair and the government's response to it. The PM seems a reasonably sensible man and his performance in at least the first 3 months after the coup, regardless of whether you feel it was justified or not, generally seemed pretty good in the circumstances. Then comes this horrible Koh Tao case. From the beginning the police investigation and public statements have appeared to any rational person to be nonsensical and to believe them wholeheartedly one would have to suspend one's cognitive abilities. Instead of making general comments to the effect that the government will not interfere with the investigation and what should be an independent judiary, thus keeping an appropriate distance, the PM jumped in with both feet and says he is sure the police have a sound case against the two suspects who are thus effectively presumed guilty without trial by the head of the government. If it does turn out to be a cover up, one can only hope that the PM was very distant from it or his credibility will be gone forever. It takes a particular type of person to be prepared to send innocent men potentially to the gallows and let rapist/murderers walk free to strike again. Unfortunately Thai police are on record as having done exactly that time and time again.

[englishoak]

But back on topic because i know your interested... a simple Q for you, do you believe any of the claims from the 2 Burmese regarding torture, threats etc ? just curious

I would not be surprised at all if they were mistreated. I currently don't believe they were "physically tortured" though they may have been handled roughly and threatened. According to the parents who went and visited one of them, he said they confessed due to "threats of torture".

I would not be at all surprised if the police got confession through threats. The only doubt I would really have about the confessions being obtained in an illegal way is police know how much scrutiny and under a microscope this case was under.

Although there could be an explanation, on thing I am not seeing why they would also confess to the crimes to their embassy, lawyers and a human rights group later in a private meeting without police present where they also said they were abused.

Regardless, I believe the confessions should almost surely be thrown out simply because of the suspects claims of threats unless police recorded them in full and can show there was no mistreatment. I believe this should be the case everywhere given there is technology readily available to record interrogations. Because of this, I am suspect of confessions got by any police department across the globe.

Edit: as for tourism damage to Koh Tao --- never did I suggest people would solely come to Thailand to see a crime scene ... just as people don't go to California to take the murder tour bus but many do while they are there. I also was clear in saying this was just one reason people might go in the near term. Although not stated I was talking more about local tourism which makes up a much bigger junk of tourism in Thailand than most people realize.

Thanks for a topical reply

OK so when does a threat of harm become classed as torture ? It dosnt have to be physical, im sure they were slapped about, its almost routine for the RTP but torture can be mental too and thats why threats are used, to cause mental anguish and the thought of the threat being carried out is believable.

if a British police said that most would likely just say BS and confess to nothing knowing it was obviously just a ruse to extract a confession but.....These kids are Burmese, ergo they would likely have the same opinion and fears of the RTP as they would of their own police/army in their country... given the record Myanmar has of inflicting beatings and killings on their own people in these kids lifetime I can only see the kids totally believing the threats could turn real....

As for the case I dont believe these confessions can now be taken seriously either, however it is also for that reason it is VITAL to have the DNA looked at by others, for the sole reason if nothing else to know for certain of their part or not.

yes i know gruesome tours exist, we have them in the UK too like Cambodia have the killing fields. but thats historical history type tours, I cant see any people other than freaks coming to look at saree beach for that reason. Thais might but they dont like bad spirits, I dont know many Thai who would go there with the way things are atm. For that matter I cant see other Asians being comfortable there either.

final footnote...

The Thai press is no doubt guilty of making things up, misquoting, mistranslating and others no doubt use it from time to time to that effect since its always in question if the press quotes people properly or not... some of the contradictions and strange things said in tandem has indeed seemed wacky at times.

I am not going to split hairs on what is and is not torture, listed to enough of that for years in the US. But again, I say throw out the confessions with any claims by the suspects they were mistreated unless the cops can prove they weren't (recorded).

DNA -- let me now as you a question. Do you believe the cops at the crime scene or pre-medical exam planted the suspects DNA and semen?

There are so many logical reasons why this would be near impossible and make no sense but it is the only plausible way you can believe the police are lying about the DNA match unless of course they are just lying and there was no match and come trial this would clearly come out and think the prosecutors would know this by now too.

So, barring they all conspired to set these two up or there is going to be a huge story coming out any day that there was never a DNA match we have to accept there was a match, even if it was a BS match not from the victim or suspect (they replaced actual DNA), right?

I am not going to get into all the details of everyone involved in the process but the bottom line this would involve a conspiracy so great and gran with so many people who never heard of the headsman from Koh Tao and have no fear at all of him that is just makes this a ridiculous notion.

The gist of it is that early on the original samples collected are cataloged were sent to a lab or labs for a DNA report. This results are shared with numerous people and backed up on other computers. Numerous people in the lab would have been involved in the testing and likely different people involved with testing different samples that they said early on matched. Some of these people that were shared the information was a number of universities (i believe it was 3) as they were involved with comparing the DNA to the hundreds of samples they were collecting from people on the island. Even with the universities help, they couldn't process all the samples for comparisons and there was a big backlog. But each one of these labs has numerous people who had access to the original DNA report and numerous computers were these results were stored.

Point being is there is no way to undue the results of the initial DNA tests from the victims and crime scene. Too many people have these results and they are located in too many places. Any attempt to change them in one place would set off alarms at others.

The second part is as long as the suspects bodies are around, there DNA will be here. If they are innocent then their lawyers have already taken their DNA or at minimum that of their family and will certainly have it compared to that original DNA probably at all the labs and probably at no charge since most people want to know for sure the truth. Regardless of how corrupt the police are, they are not so stupid as to believe this would not happen while planning this conspiracy.

As for some other country retesting and verifying results, it is just not the way things are done here or anywhere else no matter how much public outcry. I won't even get into all the reasons why but no country is going to put itself in the position of needing to depend on another country to gain their own public trust. Every time there was doubt in the future they'd once again need to do this for not just the public but every defendant and they then would no longer be a sovereign nation. Thailand has no problem asking for help, like many countries, and have invited both UK and US authorities to help or be involved in criminal investigations where they needed help to solve. Having another country confirm what Thailand can and has already has done is a completely different story. Like it or not and regardless if it makes it tough for people to accept, this is just the way things are done across the globe.

Besides, the only way another country can retest is if they have the original sperm from the victim and if they test and the results confirm then people will simply say the Thai police replaced the original specimens despite how this would nearly be impossible.

Do you believe the cops at the crime scene or pre-medical exam planted the suspects DNA and semen?

At the scene no, but after its possible, pre med exam with all the samples being sent in and the boys had already had a DNA swab in the first round up just after the murders and not flagged up then. The original samples taken from the victims havnt even been handled by a forensics team apparently anyway ? so possibly anything could have happened to samples once away from the crime scene.

unless of course they are just lying and there was no match

This is in my opinion far far more simple and likely, if the RTP present a file and DNA report that says its a match how would a judge know if the report was made up, arranged, legit or even credible ? they would just normally accept it, Seeing as no forensics team was on this case how can it be trustworthy, DNA could be contaminated very easily... all the judge would have is a RTP report that says match, given they arnt the pillar of honesty I think its entirely likely the RTP may have just fudged a DNA report to look ok in a thai court... but now the spotlight is in them any second look at DNA would reveal any fudge up or claim anyway... that's their problem i think, they cant present what they have because its BS and probably a made up report with some name on the bottom. I think the prosecution are concerned about that and doubt they wish to be a part of this farce. thats the main reason I think they are not to date allowing samples to be tested by an independent agy,

We could argue all day semantics of what can or cant be done here or wherever but we wont...here is the crux

The facts are this. Elections Constitution, MPs, parliament etc etc all this is suspended. Thailand is under military rule, martial Law exists nationwide.... let me say that again.

Thailand is under Martial law and military control, there is no constitution and anything the the army says can happen... can, or of it says not it cant. Its that simple atm really it is.

Meaning If PM P wishes to allow outside verification or help or whatever, thats what will and can happen...period ..there is nothing that cannot be altered anytime its required at the moment... not since the coup.

Actually the opportunity to take a huge leap forwards exists for PM P and Thailand, question is will they seize the moment or have to be dragged there unwillingly and embarrassed or worse be totally predictable and show theres nothing different at all about this coup, close ranks and protect the corrupt ?

[JohnThailandJohn]

Do you believe the cops at the crime scene or pre-medical exam planted the suspects DNA and semen?

At the scene no, but after its possible, pre med exam with all the samples being sent in and the boys had already had a DNA swab in the first round up just after the murders and not flagged up then. The original samples taken from the victims havnt even been handled by a forensics team apparently anyway ? so possibly anything could have happened to samples once away from the crime scene.

unless of course they are just lying and there was no match

This is in my opinion far far more simple and likely, if the RTP present a file and DNA report that says its a match how would a judge know if the report was made up, arranged, legit or even credible ? they would just normally accept it, Seeing as no forensics team was on this case how can it be trustworthy, DNA could be contaminated very easily... all the judge would have is a RTP report that says match, given they arnt the pillar of honesty I think its entirely likely the RTP may have just fudged a DNA report to look ok in a thai court... but now the spotlight is in them any second look at DNA would reveal any fudge up or claim anyway... that's their problem i think, they cant present what they have because its BS and probably a made up report with some name on the bottom. I think the prosecution are concerned about that and doubt they wish to be a part of this farce. thats the main reason I think they are not to date allowing samples to be tested by an independent agy,

We could argue all day semantics of what can or cant be done here or wherever but we wont...here is the crux

The facts are this. Elections Constitution, MPs, parliament etc etc all this is suspended. Thailand is under military rule, martial Law exists nationwide.... let me say that again.

Thailand is under Martial law and military control, there is no constitution and anything the the army says can happen... can, or of it says not it cant. Its that simple atm really it is.

Meaning If PM P wishes to allow outside verification or help or whatever, thats what will and can happen...period ..there is nothing that cannot be altered anytime its required at the moment... not since the coup.

Actually the opportunity to take a huge leap forwards exists for PM P and Thailand, question is will they seize the moment or have to be dragged there unwillingly and embarrassed or worse be totally predictable and show theres nothing different at all about this coup, close ranks and protect the corrupt ?

First, while martial law can play a factor, it doesn't appear to have anything to do with this case to date, unless I am missing something. Good or bad, I don't see this case being handled any differently had it occurred pre-martial law.

Okay, you don't seem so convinced that they planted evidence early on including likely having to clean and then place the suspects semen in the victim prior to the autopsy. So, won't harp too much on this but to say that this would mean they knew who they were going to frame from the get go which doesn't make sense given so many other things that transpired.

Second, I agree with you that if the DNA is BS then the most logical reason would be that the police have lied about there being any match and have left everyone in the lab scratching their heads. I assume you will agree with me that if this is the situation it is going to come out fairly soon but at some point for sure. Certainly they know the DNA evidence would have to be submitted at some point. But why I think this if far fetched too is because too many eyes on this case and I am sure by now the top guy has wanted to confirm the DNA did indeed match. So even if some stupid lower level folks decided to lie it has to be known to the higher ups who know they will never get away with it given the suspects have good lawyers and you have two different countries directly monitoring things as well as human rights group. It just doesn't seem plausible they would take a case this far knowing they will never be able to back up their DNA claim. The murders and all the other BS is not going to hurt Thailand but if it turns out they are lying about the DNA there would be all sorts of travel bans or advisories and countries sanctioning Thailand. Murders go unsolved everywhere as do police abusing people and even all those mystery deaths in the hotel(s) didn't stop tourism from rising ... people and the press have short memories. But an entire force from top to bottom setting people up to die through the legal process, that is something else. And I have little doubt the PM is following the evidence very closely so the cover-up would actually go all the way up to him. Although we might not want to admit this, trust me when I say he is more aware not of just what is going on but also what the police are capable of.

DNA is not the only evidence against these two but it is certainly the most damaging evidence and it would take a HUGE underrepresented vast conspiracy to fake it and there is just no logical reason to this. The police heads in Bangkok through the PM are not scared of some islander headsman and if they were they could take everything he owns and charge his entire family with being involved in the crime and cover-up and appoint a new mafia chief of the island if this is what people believe ... as you said, it is martial law so they could even go further getting rid of the family as one thing police everywhere don't like is to be controlled by anyone let alone an outside or mafia figure. And if it is the mafia money they want, they can simply take it all right now.

So, imo either we find out very soon the cops lied about there every being any match or the DNA match is solid. Who knows, maybe the prosecutors problem with accepting the case now is due to something ain't right about the DNA. Again, I would just be beyond shocked if they would try to take it this far if there was no match.

Edited October 25, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[tingtongtourist]

Look at those simple people. Have they brought up their sons to become rapists and murderers??

I refuse to believe it.

Please keep posting, so the two guys (together with Hannah and David) are never forgotten!!

Does any parent bring their children up to be ?

Did the parents of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and all those serial killers that materialized bring their offspring up to become so evil?

Of course not.

You can believe whatever you want. My dear old mum believed you shouldn't vote for a politician whose eyes were to close together, made then look dishonest she thought. Each to their own.

Point being, parents aren't always responsible for the actions of the their offspring, certainly not when the kids are adults, living away from home.

Too much speculation has led to some becoming convinced who is guilty and who are innocent based on nothing but words and stories.

Do you have any actual evidence that the 2 suspects didn't do it, or were not in some way involved?

The actual evidence has to be judged as beyond reasonable doubt to convict. It works both ways. The RTP has to provide this (satisfactory evidence) to the prosecutor for the case to go to trial. None of us have any 'actual' evidence to say they did or didn't or were or were not involved, that's clear.

What the majority of posters are questioning are the many contradictory reports by the RTP posted in the media. I would suggest that's plenty of circumstantial evidence to weaken the RTP's case. The one outstanding aspect that has not been mentioned outside this forum is the motive for the brutal murders. I would expect the Brit police to already have identified the killer's likely profile - in layman's terms, a crime of passion; in this case rage/rejection are likely candidates re the female victim. Nothing I have read or seen in the reenactment indicates that the B2 had this motivation, only (as alleged) lust. That's my opinion - and I accept I could be wrong.

That is a very valid point. Such a maniac and horrific attack really only would point to the person with big anger and big ego that would go crazy with even slight loss of face

like 'how dare you reject/ridicule me.you know who i am' type of response.

the profile dont seem to fit a couple of simple migrant workers. Ever ive seen those burmese they usually keep a low profile at most times.

It look to me like they got caught up in it..either in the vacinity or instructed to help try and cover things over by the real killer

i always thought this face business will be the downfall of Thais. Alright to have cofident and want respect but this face thing and the crazy over-reaction when things go against them is hmmm well i have no words for it.

Thainess?

I guess that would sum it up. Im sure the saying "Water off a ducks back" hasnt got a Thai translation sadly

[Si Thea01]

 

And now the corrupt Brit cops are here to give them another beating. There is a lot of truth in the old saying ( All Coppers Are B------s ). Police are Mafia in every country.

I hold out no hope for justice in this one !

 

Darwinian quote of the day!!!!

It seems to me that you may have had a brush or two with the long arm of the law and have a real hatred of Police Having been a law enforcement officer for many years I take offence at you statement and can assure you that not all are as you describe (Mafia?). I will say, that as in all walks of life, there are a few who bring discredit but like in all of society, the good outweigh the bad.

I really pity you for having such a poor outlook but I bet police would be the first ones you would contact if you were being harmed in any way. Then again maybe not, as with your obvious hatred, are you another fine upstanding expat on the lamb here in Thailand?

[primary tiff]

Do you believe the cops at the crime scene or pre-medical exam planted the suspects DNA and semen?

At the scene no, but after its possible, pre med exam with all the samples being sent in and the boys had already had a DNA swab in the first round up just after the murders and not flagged up then. The original samples taken from the victims havnt even been handled by a forensics team apparently anyway ? so possibly anything could have happened to samples once away from the crime scene.

unless of course they are just lying and there was no match

This is in my opinion far far more simple and likely, if the RTP present a file and DNA report that says its a match how would a judge know if the report was made up, arranged, legit or even credible ? they would just normally accept it, Seeing as no forensics team was on this case how can it be trustworthy, DNA could be contaminated very easily... all the judge would have is a RTP report that says match, given they arnt the pillar of honesty I think its entirely likely the RTP may have just fudged a DNA report to look ok in a thai court... but now the spotlight is in them any second look at DNA would reveal any fudge up or claim anyway... that's their problem i think, they cant present what they have because its BS and probably a made up report with some name on the bottom. I think the prosecution are concerned about that and doubt they wish to be a part of this farce. thats the main reason I think they are not to date allowing samples to be tested by an independent agy,

We could argue all day semantics of what can or cant be done here or wherever but we wont...here is the crux

The facts are this. Elections Constitution, MPs, parliament etc etc all this is suspended. Thailand is under military rule, martial Law exists nationwide.... let me say that again.

Thailand is under Martial law and military control, there is no constitution and anything the the army says can happen... can, or of it says not it cant. Its that simple atm really it is.

Meaning If PM P wishes to allow outside verification or help or whatever, thats what will and can happen...period ..there is nothing that cannot be altered anytime its required at the moment... not since the coup.

Actually the opportunity to take a huge leap forwards exists for PM P and Thailand, question is will they seize the moment or have to be dragged there unwillingly and embarrassed or worse be totally predictable and show theres nothing different at all about this coup, close ranks and protect the corrupt ?

First, while martial law can play a factor, it doesn't appear to have anything to do with this case to date, unless I am missing something. Good or bad, I don't see this case being handled any differently had it occurred pre-martial law.

Okay, you don't seem so convinced that they planted evidence early on including likely having to clean and then place the suspects semen in the victim prior to the autopsy. So, won't harp too much on this but to say that this would mean they knew who they were going to frame from the get go which doesn't make sense given so many other things that transpired.

Second, I agree with you that if the DNA is BS then the most logical reason would be that the police have lied about there being any match and have left everyone in the lab scratching their heads. I assume you will agree with me that if this is the situation it is going to come out fairly soon but at some point for sure. Certainly they know the DNA evidence would have to be submitted at some point. But why I think this if far fetched too is because too many eyes on this case and I am sure by now the top guy has wanted to confirm the DNA did indeed match. So even if some stupid lower level folks decided to lie it has to be known to the higher ups who know they will never get away with it given the suspects have good lawyers and you have two different countries directly monitoring things as well as human rights group. It just doesn't seem plausible they would take a case this far knowing they will never be able to back up their DNA claim. The murders and all the other BS is not going to hurt Thailand but if it turns out they are lying about the DNA there would be all sorts of travel bans or advisories and countries sanctioning Thailand. Murders go unsolved everywhere as do police abusing people and even all those mystery deaths in the hotel(s) didn't stop tourism from rising ... people and the press have short memories. But an entire force from top to bottom setting people up to die through the legal process, that is something else. And I have little doubt the PM is following the evidence very closely so the cover-up would actually go all the way up to him. Although we might not want to admit this, trust me when I say he is more aware not of just what is going on but also what the police are capable of.

DNA is not the only evidence against these two but it is certainly the most damaging evidence and it would take a HUGE underrepresented vast conspiracy to fake it and there is just no logical reason to this. The police heads in Bangkok through the PM are not scared of some islander headsman and if they were they could take everything he owns and charge his entire family with being involved in the crime and cover-up and appoint a new mafia chief of the island if this is what people believe ... as you said, it is martial law so they could even go further getting rid of the family as one thing police everywhere don't like is to be controlled by anyone let alone an outside or mafia figure. And if it is the mafia money they want, they can simply take it all right now.

So, imo either we find out very soon the cops lied about there every being any match or the DNA match is solid. Who knows, maybe the prosecutors problem with accepting the case now is due to something ain't right about the DNA. Again, I would just be beyond shocked if they would try to take it this far if there was no match.

Just how on Earth could they do that without at least the suspects knowing?

[xylophone]

They had the DNA samples tested BEFORE they had any real suspects. They were looking for ASIAN suspects on the island. They found two that matched according to what I read. They either have the match or they don't.

As far as the tortured confession, that should be a separate investigation and if wrong-doing then fire and prosecute the guilty. And throw the confession out if that is found.

Then forget all this peripheral BS. Lets get it into court. The DNA match is there or it isn't, that's it!

And if the DNA samples have been planted or contaminated??

The Chief of Forensics in Thailand even stated that the investigation was botched (in so many words).

It is not that simple in a land where the police are corrupt, saving face means everything (even killing to do it) and the graft and corruption is embedded from top to bottom.........and that's where I find a flaw in the M.O of the two most vociferous members who post and are convinced of the guilt of the two Burmese guys.

These posters have lived in Thailand, have Thai friends and partners so must know that corruption is endemic, yet they continually state, "let the court decide" as if corruption will play no part in the outcome.

That is either dangerously naive, plain stupid or is because they have ulterior motives/drivers.

[JLCrab]

Here's my suggestion of the day: Since everybody knows who did it, have Rupert Murdoch or some other UK tabloid media baron offer 10 million baht or some such for the exclusive story rights to anyone who is willing to break ranks with the extended collusive cover-up and come forward with direct evidence as to who perpetrated these crimes.

[Si Thea01]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

John Thailand John.

I just gotta confirm something.

You are satisfied with the evidence released by the Police. You have absolutely no reason to doubt them, whether it be for this shaky case or the reputation they have built up as a whole.

I have gone through my life with a healthy contempt of conspiracy theories. I have lived in Thailand for 13 years. There is an enormous shadow of a doubt in this case. Most things start as 'RUMOURS' until they are corroborated. The Police won't corroborate. So these remain rumours for now. It seems like the whole country is abuzzz with rumours.

You say that conspiracy theorists jump from one point to the next when something is disproven. Thats true. But seems like the Police have been doing the same thing, changing the points that have been picked out.

The fact that a forensic pathologist was never used at the crime scene and that members of the public, some that were later suspects, were all over the scene suggests the DNA evidence may be useless, tampered with. The Police have tampered with evidence in the past.

Do you think the Thai Police don't beat suspects? Being seen earlier in the evening near the scene is damning evidence?

Why do I bother? You are going to deflect somehow, ignoring all of this and I can't be bothered wasting my time making this post more comprehensive.

You are welcome to your opinion mate, I just don't fully understand why you are so vehemently convinced of it.

I'll admit that I can't know for sure the Burmen didn't do it, but everything surrounding this case makes it so highly doubtful.

But you seem so sure.

Excllent post.

I dont think he is vehemently convinced of it. Anybody who has lived in Thailand for any amount of time would realise that your post is spot on.

The person that beat Hannah in the head has some serious anger against women like some little rich island boy who has probably raped and beaten other girls on the island.

Do you know something the rest of us do not. Don't think so just ignorance and pure conjecture

[AGareth2]

is the DNA semen match or cigarette match?

getting confused