Retirement Visa - Americans- Chiang Mai - Requirements

[CMcitylife]

Need Updates :::

American citizens have always been able to get a retirement visa in Chiang Mai soley based on the "Affidavit of Income" from the US Consulate here in Chiang Mai.

Last week, a friend of mine, inquired at the immigration office, and it seems like these rules have not changed for Americans, at least not yet.

I know that all other nationalities have always been required to provide additional bank statements as proof.

Question : What are the rules regarding retirement for Americans in Chiang Mai now ????

Additional bank related paperwork is needed ?? OR ... the "Affidavit of Income" from the embassy is enough ??

Are the rules different for first time applicants compared to extending for 2nd or 3rd year ??

Need info for first time applicants specifically. ... Thank you.

Edited November 28, 2014 by CMcitylife

[uptheos]

I have an American friend who renewed last week with simply an affidavit.

[noise]

i, too, used just the notarized income statement on 24 Nov.

[Seligne2]

I would have tried the affidavit route (I hear, but do not know for certain, that it is still an option) were it not for the USD50 fee and the need for an appointment. Bangkok Bank charged me THB100 for a letter.

[mesquite]

I've never had a problem with the affidavit.

There always seems to be a rumor floating around that "now" Americans will be required to submit further proof. IMO this is simply wishful thinking by those nationalities who are required to submit documentation regarding proof of income.

[Langsuan Man]

I would have tried the affidavit route (I hear, but do not know for certain, that it is still an option) were it not for the USD50 fee and the need for an appointment. Bangkok Bank charged me THB100 for a letter.

I assume that you are talking about the letter proving that you have 800,000 THB in your Bangkok Bank account

If the OP does not have that, or did not have it in his Thai bank account for two months prior to application (first time app) then he has no choice but to use the affidavit route

So I would listen to CM Immigration that told the OP that it was still acceptable and the other posters here who say that it is still accepted there and proceed accordingly

I have read of other Immigration offices wanting to see a bank book showing steady deposits but have never read of CM having that requirement

[CMcitylife]

Is the retirement visa for first time applicants issued by the Chiang Mai Immigration Office on the same day ??

OR ... does it have to go to Bangkok and there is a long waiting period to receive the actual retirement visa ??

[northernjohn]

I would have tried the affidavit route (I hear, but do not know for certain, that it is still an option) were it not for the USD50 fee and the need for an appointment. Bangkok Bank charged me THB100 for a letter.

I assume that you are talking about the letter proving that you have 800,000 THB in your Bangkok Bank account

If the OP does not have that, or did not have it in his Thai bank account for two months prior to application (first time app) then he has no choice but to use the affidavit route

So I would listen to CM Immigration that told the OP that it was still acceptable and the other posters here who say that it is still accepted there and proceed accordingly

I have read of other Immigration offices wanting to see a bank book showing steady deposits but have never read of CM having that requirement

I have heard of people having to have the letter from the bank and their pass book and the amount of money in each has to match even though they are over 800,000 baht.

Just to be on the safe side I would suggest when you receive your letter to make sure it matches your bank book and take both in.

[NancyL]

In Chiang Mai, the retirement extension is issued on the same day as application.

Remember that Immigration has the right to ask for further proof from those submitting an Income Affidavit. They have been know to ask questions, like "what is your source of income" just to see if the applicant can come up with a reasonable answer or squirms too much.

Also, remember it is a federal crime to falsely swear a statement at the U.S. Consulate.

Incidentally, Americans aren't the only nationality that can provide an Income Affidavit based on swearing an oath at the Consulate/Embassy without providing financial documents.

[JulieM]

Nancy wrote: "Also, remember it is a federal crime to falsely swear a statement at the U.S. Consulate."

Excellent point and it's good to have a reminder once in a while.

[amexpat]

Just to be on the safe side I would suggest when you receive your letter to make sure it matches your bank book and take both in.

And your birth certificate, army discharge papers, note from your mother......

Nah, the letter is all you need.

[Seligne2]

Nah, the letter is not all you need in CM.

In CM you need: 1. the letter from the bank, 2. copies of your bank books (signed), and 3. the real bank books. Or, in lieu of all that (I am told), a notarised letter from your consulate attesting to 65K baht a month income here or 800k baht in a bank here. Or some combination of the two (I don't know how that is computed)?

[Prof Bill]

In Chiang Mai, the retirement extension is issued on the same day as application.

Remember that Immigration has the right to ask for further proof from those submitting an Income Affidavit. They have been know to ask questions, like "what is your source of income" just to see if the applicant can come up with a reasonable answer or squirms too much.

Also, remember it is a federal crime to falsely swear a statement at the U.S. Consulate.

Incidentally, Americans aren't the only nationality that can provide an Income Affidavit based on swearing an oath at the Consulate/Embassy without providing financial documents.

Who are the other countries that you know can only swear an oath at their consulate or embassy without providing financial documents.

I don't know of any but I am interested to find out who can also do that.

[NancyL]

I'd really rather not say, because some of their citizens may not be aware of this. Also, sometimes the American consulate does raise an eyebrow when they see someone claiming a high income yet they know that person has been in to see them during the past year asking for help because of financial difficulties. Actually, I suspect they do more than "raise an eyebrow" in some cases.

As I said, it's a Federal offense to swear a false oath and despite barroom chatter it is not a situation where "every American lies about their income". Believe it or not, there are many, many Americans here who have retirement income of substantially more than 65,000 baht/month.

Edited November 28, 2014 by NancyL

[slipperylobster]

I have an American friend who renewed last week with simply an affidavit.

"Renewed" is the key word.

First time applicants might be advised to take additional "proof". I was so lucky that I did. They read every single line of every single bank statement....and were quite satisfied.

I suspect, that all being on record, that a "Renewal" will be much easier.

That is what my neighbor (30 years here in Thailand) is saying.....

[hml367]

Who are the other countries that you know can only swear an oath at their consulate or embassy without providing financial documents.

I don't know of any but I am interested to find out who can also do that.

It has been reported in other threads on ThaiVisa forums this year that Australia (although technically a different named document) and Belgium have issued affidavits. These countries I remember the posts and there could be others. Also, as noted below, there may be more requirements than just swearing an oath.

I don't know any reason why this should not be mentioned if it is offered by someone's consular services.

Also, it must be noted that the requirements by Immigration (not just Chiang Mai) are for income verification by the person's embassy, which consular services come under. The US Consulates cannot verify income so Thai Immigration made arrangements to accept the affidavits. This happened many years ago. Some consular service issue a type of income verification. An affidavit from the US Consulate does not verify anything other than what the affiant says is true in front of the person that verifies the statement... That could very well be why Immigration will ask for further documentation.

As has been stated in this thread and so many others, the Immigration Officer can ask for other documents to satisfy themselves of what is required.

It is possible to have income verified by the Office of Authentications in the US State Department. However, it is a nightmare to get done and probably would be outdated by the time it is received.

EDIT: The Australion paper is called a Statutory Declaration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_declaration

Edited November 28, 2014 by hml367

[amexpat]

Exactly. The letter is all that is required for renewal. Getting the initial visa is indeed another matter.

[Mapguy]

Who are the other countries that you know can only swear an oath at their consulate or embassy without providing financial documents.

I don't know of any but I am interested to find out who can also do that.

It has been reported in other threads on ThaiVisa forums this year that Australia (although technically a different named document) and Belgium have issued affidavits. These countries I remember the posts and there could be others. Also, as noted below, there may be more requirements than just swearing an oath.

I don't know any reason why this should not be mentioned if it is offered by someone's consular services.

Also, it must be noted that the requirements by Immigration (not just Chiang Mai) are for income verification by the person's embassy, which consular services come under. The US Consulates cannot verify income so Thai Immigration made arrangements to accept the affidavits. This happened many years ago. Some consular service issue a type of income verification. An affidavit from the US Consulate does not verify anything other than what the affiant says is true in front of the person that verifies the statement... That could very well be why Immigration will ask for further documentation.

As has been stated in this thread and so many others, the Immigration Officer can ask for other documents to satisfy themselves of what is required.

It is possible to have income verified by the Office of Authentications in the US State Department. However, it is a nightmare to get done and probably would be outdated by the time it is received.

EDIT: The Australion paper is called a Statutory Declaration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_declaration

Proof is not requested by US consular officials. The comment in boldface above has been confirmed by career US Consular staff familiar with the process. Of course, if he or she chooses to, a Thai Immigration officer can ask for confirmation. I have never known of one doing so, even rumors of it in Chiang Mai, but who's to say?

Confirmation is not so difficult, actually, since pensions provide recipients written confirmation of benefits, which are normally updated as needed. It is easy enough to carry copies of such benefit letters along when extending permission to stay. The odds are apparently heavily against a request for even this much confirmation. Then, of course --- at very, very slim odds of being checked --- these letters (if presented) can very often be matched with bank statements showing deposits and transfers.

It is common knowledge that the affidavit is not substantiated and that this and the lack of any confirmation by Thai Immigration allow unqualified Americans to slip by the income requirement. Really a curious situation!

Edited November 28, 2014 by Mapguy

[Dante99]

Who are the other countries that you know can only swear an oath at their consulate or embassy without providing financial documents.

I don't know of any but I am interested to find out who can also do that.

It has been reported in other threads on ThaiVisa forums this year that Australia (although technically a different named document) and Belgium have issued affidavits. These countries I remember the posts and there could be others. Also, as noted below, there may be more requirements than just swearing an oath.

I don't know any reason why this should not be mentioned if it is offered by someone's consular services.

Also, it must be noted that the requirements by Immigration (not just Chiang Mai) are for income verification by the person's embassy, which consular services come under. The US Consulates cannot verify income so Thai Immigration made arrangements to accept the affidavits. This happened many years ago. Some consular service issue a type of income verification. An affidavit from the US Consulate does not verify anything other than what the affiant says is true in front of the person that verifies the statement... That could very well be why Immigration will ask for further documentation.

As has been stated in this thread and so many others, the Immigration Officer can ask for other documents to satisfy themselves of what is required.

It is possible to have income verified by the Office of Authentications in the US State Department. However, it is a nightmare to get done and probably would be outdated by the time it is received.

EDIT: The Australion paper is called a Statutory Declaration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_declaration

Proof is not requested by US consular officials. The comment in boldface above has been confirmed by career US Consular staff familiar with the process. Of course, if he or she chooses to, a Thai Immigration officer can ask for confirmation. I have never known of one doing so, even rumors of it in Chiang Mai, but who's to say?

Confirmation is not so difficult, actually, since pensions provide recipients written confirmation of benefits, which are normally updated as needed. It is easy enough to carry copies of such benefit letters along when extending permission to stay. The odds are apparently heavily against a request for even this much confirmation. Then, of course --- at very, very slim odds of being checked --- these letters (if presented) can very often be matched with bank statements showing deposits and transfers.

It is common knowledge that the affidavit is not substantiated and that this and the lack of any confirmation by Thai Immigration allow unqualified Americans to slip by the income requirement. Really a curious situation!

Sure can do if they are stupid enough to commit a US federal crime just to get a visa.

[Pinot]

At Phuket Immigration, I've had to submit a letter from my bank stating I've been withdrawing the monthly amount stated on the Embassy letter. Of course no bank in America is going to give you that letter. Anyway for the last two years I've submitted a letter that says that, along with a copy of the ATM card used to pull those funds. This year they don't want that letter anymore, but they want a copy of a Thai bank ATM card. Interesting that the Kasikorn ATM card that was acceptable doesn't even have my name on it.

This year's it's the house registration BS they want. I'm so happy I have another year approved and don't have to deal with those people, in that madhouse for another year.

Oh my Buddha. TIT

[slipperylobster]

At Phuket Immigration, I've had to submit a letter from my bank stating I've been withdrawing the monthly amount stated on the Embassy letter. Of course no bank in America is going to give you that letter. Anyway for the last two years I've submitted a letter that says that, along with a copy of the ATM card used to pull those funds. This year they don't want that letter anymore, but they want a copy of a Thai bank ATM card. Interesting that the Kasikorn ATM card that was acceptable doesn't even have my name on it.

This year's it's the house registration BS they want. I'm so happy I have another year approved and don't have to deal with those people, in that madhouse for another year.

Oh my Buddha. TIT

Sometimes, I am thinking...."I am perfectly legit....why all the harsh scrutinizing?" This is not directed at the office in Chiang Mai, per se. However, it appears some people give only the minimum of paperwork and have no problem. Is this their very first time applying...or is it easier because they do the same thing every year, and immigration knows them?

Other than being my first time applying.....would it be that my passport is throwing up some kind of flag? It is full of tourist visas...but I had the 90 day non O, and told them I was not sure, in the past, that I wanted to retire here. I wanted to travel, not stay in one house. In Thailand, they frown on tourists that stay and travel more than 6 months or so. But they also frown on a Retiree that does not want to stay in one place for 90 days at a time. A single man (retired) may want the retirement extension, and just stay in Apartelles, all over thailand, month to month. He must, however, rent a house where he does his extension. Impossible either way.

Perhaps I was just unlucky, and an immigration officer was doing his best to find something that I did not have in my pocket, in order to collect a bribe? Who knows??

Edited November 29, 2014 by slipperylobster

[circusman]

At Phuket Immigration, I've had to submit a letter from my bank stating I've been withdrawing the monthly amount stated on the Embassy letter. Of course no bank in America is going to give you that letter. Anyway for the last two years I've submitted a letter that says that, along with a copy of the ATM card used to pull those funds. This year they don't want that letter anymore, but they want a copy of a Thai bank ATM card. Interesting that the Kasikorn ATM card that was acceptable doesn't even have my name on it.

This year's it's the house registration BS they want. I'm so happy I have another year approved and don't have to deal with those people, in that madhouse for another year.

Oh my Buddha. TIT

Sometimes, I am thinking...."I am perfectly legit....why all the harsh scrutinizing?" This is not directed at the office in Chiang Mai, per se. However, it appears some people give only the minimum of paperwork and have no problem. Is this their very first time applying...or is it easier because they do the same thing every year, and immigration knows them?

Other than being my first time applying.....would it be that my passport is throwing up some kind of flag? It is full of tourist visas...but I had the 90 day non O, and told them I was not sure, in the past, that I wanted to retire here. I wanted to travel, not stay in one house. In Thailand, they frown on tourists that stay and travel more than 6 months or so. But they also frown on a Retiree that does not want to stay in one place for 90 days at a time. A single man (retired) may want the retirement extension, and just stay in Apartelles, all over thailand, month to month. He must, however, rent a house where he does his extension. Impossible either way.

Perhaps I was just unlucky, and an immigration officer was doing his best to find something that I did not have in my pocket, in order to collect a bribe? Who knows??

Pure speculations on your part about the possible bribe request coming. Uncalled for also.

[slipperylobster]

At Phuket Immigration, I've had to submit a letter from my bank stating I've been withdrawing the monthly amount stated on the Embassy letter. Of course no bank in America is going to give you that letter. Anyway for the last two years I've submitted a letter that says that, along with a copy of the ATM card used to pull those funds. This year they don't want that letter anymore, but they want a copy of a Thai bank ATM card. Interesting that the Kasikorn ATM card that was acceptable doesn't even have my name on it.

This year's it's the house registration BS they want. I'm so happy I have another year approved and don't have to deal with those people, in that madhouse for another year.

Oh my Buddha. TIT

Sometimes, I am thinking...."I am perfectly legit....why all the harsh scrutinizing?" This is not directed at the office in Chiang Mai, per se. However, it appears some people give only the minimum of paperwork and have no problem. Is this their very first time applying...or is it easier because they do the same thing every year, and immigration knows them?

Other than being my first time applying.....would it be that my passport is throwing up some kind of flag? It is full of tourist visas...but I had the 90 day non O, and told them I was not sure, in the past, that I wanted to retire here. I wanted to travel, not stay in one house. In Thailand, they frown on tourists that stay and travel more than 6 months or so. But they also frown on a Retiree that does not want to stay in one place for 90 days at a time. A single man (retired) may want the retirement extension, and just stay in Apartelles, all over thailand, month to month. He must, however, rent a house where he does his extension. Impossible either way.

Perhaps I was just unlucky, and an immigration officer was doing his best to find something that I did not have in my pocket, in order to collect a bribe? Who knows??

Pure speculations on your part about the possible bribe request coming. Uncalled for also.

Not uncalled for at all. I have been asked for extra....to "fix" something that was not correct. This is common, in Thailand. I have seen this in many government offices, police stations, immigration offices, for driving licenses.

Or..perhaps I am wrong? There is no corruption at all.... ok. silly old me.

Edited November 29, 2014 by slipperylobster

[Bomonster]

Talk to a visa specialist "express visa" and many others

[EPICFAIL]

The affidavit in question is provided by the Chiang Mai U.S. Consulate and provides spaces for completeing the affiants personal and address information and then goes on...

"I also affirm that I receive the amount of US$___________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."

There is a fail built into the language of this affidavit. The affidavit does not ask for a declaration of useable or adjusted gross income but only asks for the amount the affiant receives. For example, you could have rental house income from exceeding $4,000 each month but rental house expenses of $3,650 per month. You could honestly swear to $4,000 in income from "other sources" despite the fact that your adjusted income from rental houses was actually $350.

Nor does the affidavit concern itself with before or after tax income. My before tax monthly income is more than 22% greater than my after tax income. I do indeed receive the before tax income so I can state that I "receive" this amount which is considerably larger than when Uncle Sam takes his bite the following April.

[CMBob]

Part of the problem, perhaps, is that the Affidavit also contains no language at all that says or even hints that the notarizing consulate/embassy officer has verified in any manner that what the affiant is saying is true. If one actually reads/translates the language, the embassy/consulate official is only confirming the identity of the person who signed the form. In other words, the official is only acting essentially as a notary according to the language on the form.

I have no idea as to why most (apparently) embassies/consulates require some proof about the income. Perhaps it's because Immigration issued some instructions in the past as to how it should be done or, perhaps, maybe the embassies/consulates just felt they ought to do that. Hell if I know.

[silverhawk_usa]

The affidavit in question is provided by the Chiang Mai U.S. Consulate and provides spaces for completeing the affiants personal and address information and then goes on...

"I also affirm that I receive the amount of US$___________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."

There is a fail built into the language of this affidavit. The affidavit does not ask for a declaration of useable or adjusted gross income but only asks for the amount the affiant receives. For example, you could have rental house income from exceeding $4,000 each month but rental house expenses of $3,650 per month. You could honestly swear to $4,000 in income from "other sources" despite the fact that your adjusted income from rental houses was actually $350.

Nor does the affidavit concern itself with before or after tax income. My before tax monthly income is more than 22% greater than my after tax income. I do indeed receive the before tax income so I can state that I "receive" this amount which is considerably larger than when Uncle Sam takes his bite the following April.

I agree with what you say; but, playing 'devils advocate', does the Thai Immigration requirement specifically state 'after tax', net income, or simply income? If it doesn't then they opened the loop hole and your gross income statement could be valid.

[northernjohn]

Just to be on the safe side I would suggest when you receive your letter to make sure it matches your bank book and take both in.

And your birth certificate, army discharge papers, note from your mother......

Nah, the letter is all you need.

Reread my post. It says I have heard of people having to have both and having to have both with the same figure on them. I did not say you had to have them. I just suggested as a safety measure you do. You can get them both in the same visit to the bank.

The U S conciliate does not require proof of income how ever every once in a while the immigration officer will ask for it. I have heard a rumor that another country did not require proof of income either. Just raise your right hand and swear the information you give is correct. About two years ago their was a rumor going around that about three countries were going to have to provide proof including the States. Turned out to be that just a rumor.

I have never had to provide the proof but when applying for both I take it with me just to look good and if they ask I do have it. Tried to show it to immigration once and they ignored it.

[northernjohn]

The affidavit in question is provided by the Chiang Mai U.S. Consulate and provides spaces for completeing the affiants personal and address information and then goes on...

"I also affirm that I receive the amount of US$___________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."

There is a fail built into the language of this affidavit. The affidavit does not ask for a declaration of useable or adjusted gross income but only asks for the amount the affiant receives. For example, you could have rental house income from exceeding $4,000 each month but rental house expenses of $3,650 per month. You could honestly swear to $4,000 in income from "other sources" despite the fact that your adjusted income from rental houses was actually $350.

Nor does the affidavit concern itself with before or after tax income. My before tax monthly income is more than 22% greater than my after tax income. I do indeed receive the before tax income so I can state that I "receive" this amount which is considerably larger than when Uncle Sam takes his bite the following April.

Immigration is only concerned with your income. Not what you do with it.

As for using a reputable agent for your first time application for a retirement. I would not be adverse to using an agent as the immigration people know them and trust them to have every thing in correct order. I have yet to use them as I have been exceedingly lucky the last two years with my extensions. One went in at 9:30 in the morning because I was going past them any how and was pleasantly surprised when told to come back at 3:30. Talking to the officer he told me they had been able to do a lot more because they had ten all at once. I suspect that was an agent and they did not bother with the usual checking. The next year I got an appointment by luck. The chances of getting an appointment are not that good. There is only ten a day and they see over fifty people a day.

[EPICFAIL]

The affidavit in question is provided by the Chiang Mai U.S. Consulate and provides spaces for completeing the affiants personal and address information and then goes on...

"I also affirm that I receive the amount of US$___________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."

There is a fail built into the language of this affidavit. The affidavit does not ask for a declaration of useable or adjusted gross income but only asks for the amount the affiant receives. For example, you could have rental house income from exceeding $4,000 each month but rental house expenses of $3,650 per month. You could honestly swear to $4,000 in income from "other sources" despite the fact that your adjusted income from rental houses was actually $350.

Nor does the affidavit concern itself with before or after tax income. My before tax monthly income is more than 22% greater than my after tax income. I do indeed receive the before tax income so I can state that I "receive" this amount which is considerably larger than when Uncle Sam takes his bite the following April.

Immigration is only concerned with your income. Not what you do with it.

You may have missed my point northernjohn. Of course Thai Immigration is concerned with your income. My point is: What IS your income? Is it your business income before business expenses? Is it your taxable income before taxes? Is it the actual cash in your pocket at the beginning of every month? Is it the income you report on line 22 of your IRS 1040? Or is it the income you report on line 38 of your IRS 1040?

The US Consulate affidavit asks ambiguous questions and of course you can give ambiguous answers.