Koh Tao murder trial rescheduled

[stephen terry]

Ally g is back for the comedy hour.. The boys were tested first time around. There is a picture of one of them in the queue. Now tell us that picture was fake.

Then tell us how the cctv footage is all 100% real and there is no chance it could have been changed.

Then tell us with all this information why the trail has been put back 6 months, I don't think it was done to help the Burmese lads.

A few corrections needed B.

1. Remember, the first RTP General stated that all the initial DNA tests cleared the participants, but when he was promoted out the issue became more fudged with the next lot of RTP stating that not all tests results had come back. Make of that what you will.

2. The relevant CCTV footage on the island was not retrieved from the AC bar, there are gaps and missing evidence. That the RTP didn't insist on the headman releasing it, is beyond belief unless of course they were protecting that family. This is key for the defence. Why on earth wouldn't the headman release it if the Burmese were the guilty parties?

3. Sorry, the defence asked for and welcomed the rescheduling of the trial on the basis it would give them enough time to construct a more complete defence. It's in their report at the last hearing.

Edited December 30, 2014 by stephen terry

[berybert]

Ally g is back for the comedy hour.. The boys were tested first time around. There is a picture of one of them in the queue. Now tell us that picture was fake.

Then tell us how the cctv footage is all 100% real and there is no chance it could have been changed.

Then tell us with all this information why the trail has been put back 6 months, I don't think it was done to help the Burmese lads.

A few corrections needed B.

1. Remember, the first RTP General stated that all the initial DNA tests cleared the participants, but when he was promoted out the issue became more fudged with the next lot of RTP stating that not all tests results had come back. Make of that what you will.

2. The relevant CCTV footage on the island was not retrieved from the AC bar, there are gaps and missing evidence. That the RTP didn't insist on the headman releasing it, is beyond belief unless of course they were protecting that family.

3. Sorry, the defence asked for and welcomed the rescheduling of the trial on the basis it would give them enough time to construct a more complete defence. It's in their report at the last hearing.

No corrections needed.

Point 3. Do you think the judge would have allowed the 6 months extension if he thought the case was solid ?

The only reason the thing went to trail was because the 86 or how ever many days it was, was getting close.

So start the trial and you get to keep the boys inside for another 6 months and try to magic up some more evidence.

They do not and never did have any real evidence to start the trial.

[stephen terry]

Ally g is back for the comedy hour.. The boys were tested first time around. There is a picture of one of them in the queue. Now tell us that picture was fake.

Then tell us how the cctv footage is all 100% real and there is no chance it could have been changed.

Then tell us with all this information why the trail has been put back 6 months, I don't think it was done to help the Burmese lads.

A few corrections needed B.

1. Remember, the first RTP General stated that all the initial DNA tests cleared the participants, but when he was promoted out the issue became more fudged with the next lot of RTP stating that not all tests results had come back. Make of that what you will.

2. The relevant CCTV footage on the island was not retrieved from the AC bar, there are gaps and missing evidence. That the RTP didn't insist on the headman releasing it, is beyond belief unless of course they were protecting that family. This is key for the defence. Why on earth wouldn't the headman release it if the Burmese were the guilty parties?

3. Sorry, the defence asked for and welcomed the rescheduling of the trial on the basis it would give them enough time to construct a more complete defence. It's in their report at the last hearing.

No corrections needed.

Point 3. Do you think the judge would have allowed the 6 months extension if he thought the case was solid ?

The only reason the thing went to trail was because the 86 or how ever many days it was, was getting close.

So start the trial and you get to keep the boys inside for another 6 months and try to magic up some more evidence.

They do not and never did have any real evidence to start the trial.

Extract from Voice of America interview. Report the witness list on Koh Tao murder case

By: Ma Aye Aye Mar (Voice of America, Bangkok, Thailand)

27th December 2014 (08:29)

For next witness testimony, so the court offered time over half of a year period, there will be the best preparation to gain bail for accused two Myanmar nationals and will try hard, said special investigation team.

Edited December 30, 2014 by stephen terry

[Krenjai]

There is no need to speculate or tax the imagination, the crime happened at the end of the beach, behind large boulders at a time very few people are awake.

Unfortunately, the satellite images of Sairee beach are not great. This link shows the location of Ocean Front Bungalows where Hannah and David were staying:

How remote and isolated a spot is this? A subjective judgment. IMHO, more isolated than Times Square New York, but less than the middle of a typical small Thai village. Besides Ocean View Bungalows, there were a couple of other hotels near enough to have heard a major commotion, and on a party island like Koh Tao, I would expect some foot traffic between the bars 100-200 yards away and these hotels.

Isolated it is not, take a look how close the bungalows are in the pic and lets not forget this was quite a struggle before death occurred with Hannah and David being dragged and fighting back.

Let not also forget that at the exact same spot the night before the murders 4 Thai guys also mugged 2 UK girls, same spot on the same beach http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

"lets not forget this was quite a struggle before death occurred with Hannah and David being dragged and fighting back."

Actually, let's not forget that is just speculation based on cherry-picking from conflicting third hand reports.

Actually, let's not forget that some posters (i.e. AleG) can't distinguish between facts and fantasy as it was clearly the RTP itself that confirmed there must have been a intense struggle before he died, I wonder what's the pay Aleg? Here is juts one of RTP quotes, hint Google.com

"Maj Gen Pornchai Suteerakune, Thailand’s chief police forensics officer, told reporters that in addition to the severe wounds found on Mr Miller’s head, the examination had found an injury on his hand, indicating that a struggle may have taken place"

[berybert]

Ally g is back for the comedy hour.. The boys were tested first time around. There is a picture of one of them in the queue. Now tell us that picture was fake.

Then tell us how the cctv footage is all 100% real and there is no chance it could have been changed.

Then tell us with all this information why the trail has been put back 6 months, I don't think it was done to help the Burmese lads.

A few corrections needed B.

1. Remember, the first RTP General stated that all the initial DNA tests cleared the participants, but when he was promoted out the issue became more fudged with the next lot of RTP stating that not all tests results had come back. Make of that what you will.

2. The relevant CCTV footage on the island was not retrieved from the AC bar, there are gaps and missing evidence. That the RTP didn't insist on the headman releasing it, is beyond belief unless of course they were protecting that family. This is key for the defence. Why on earth wouldn't the headman release it if the Burmese were the guilty parties?

3. Sorry, the defence asked for and welcomed the rescheduling of the trial on the basis it would give them enough time to construct a more complete defence. It's in their report at the last hearing.

No corrections needed.

Point 3. Do you think the judge would have allowed the 6 months extension if he thought the case was solid ?

The only reason the thing went to trail was because the 86 or how ever many days it was, was getting close.

So start the trial and you get to keep the boys inside for another 6 months and try to magic up some more evidence.

They do not and never did have any real evidence to start the trial.

Extract from Voice of America interview. Report the witness list on Koh Tao murder case

By: Ma Aye Aye Mar (Voice of America, Bangkok, Thailand)

27th December 2014 (08:29)

For next witness testimony, so the court offered time over half of a year period, there will be the best preparation to gain bail for accused two Myanmar nationals and will try hard, said special investigation team.

I know the defense is happy for the extra time. What I am saying is if the evidence was solid it wouldn't have happened.

They bought the case forward 2 months because they thought it was sewn up.

I don't believe it was put back 6 months to help the Burmese. It was put back because there is not enough evidence to prosecute.

[jimmybkk]

There is no need to speculate or tax the imagination, the crime happened at the end of the beach, behind large boulders at a time very few people are awake.

CORRECTIONS TO MY EARLIER POST TO FIX BROKEN LINK

Unfortunately, the satellite images of Sairee beach are not great. This link shows the location of Ocean Front Bungalows where Hannah and David were staying:

https://www.google.co.th/maps/place/10.089110, 99.826111/@10.08911,99.826111,783m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0?hl=en

(Click in the search box and press enter for the best view)

Some of the photos on this website are also suggestive:

http://www.booking.com/hotel/th/ocien-view-bungalows.en-gb.html

The crime scene was near the water's edge about 50 yards away according to UK journalists on the spot.

How remote and isolated a spot is this? A subjective judgment. IMHO, more isolated than Times Square New York, but less than the middle of a typical small Thai village. Besides Ocean View Bungalows, there were a couple of other hotels near enough to have heard a major commotion, and on a party island like Koh Tao, I would expect some foot traffic between the bars 100-200 yards away and these hotels.

Yes, close enough to hear a commotion (or a gun shot as some have been speculating), but, nobody has reported anyone hearing that. Therefore, probably there was no commotion or there was nobody to hear it... or of course there could be a vast conspiracy involving the highest levels of Thai government (and possibly the UK too) to cover things up.

Mr. Occam would have an opinion on what is more likely.

Hey, hey, hey...! Slow down there cowboy. Before you get all carried away with this crazy talk of a vast conspiracy, how about a boat's engine being used to drown out the noise of any commotion?

[StealthEnergiser]

[thailandchilli]

Witheridge, meanwhile, was dragged away from the first attack spot, said the same police officer.

The officer said Witheridge did manage to run for some distance but was hit repeatedly in the face with a hoe which suggested whoever attacked her could have held a personal grudge against her. https://www.dvb.no/n...a-myanmar/44236

[BritTim]

How remote and isolated a spot is this? A subjective judgment. IMHO, more isolated than Times Square New York, but less than the middle of a typical small Thai village. Besides Ocean View Bungalows, there were a couple of other hotels near enough to have heard a major commotion, and on a party island like Koh Tao, I would expect some foot traffic between the bars 100-200 yards away and these hotels.

Yes, close enough to hear a commotion (or a gun shot as some have been speculating), but, nobody has reported anyone hearing that. Therefore, probably there was no commotion or there was nobody to hear it... or of course there could be a vast conspiracy involving the highest levels of Thai government (and possibly the UK too) to cover things up.

Mr. Occam would have an opinion on what is more likely.

I think Mr Occam would have a problem with the RTP/pancake seller's version of events. We cannot reconstruct what happened with any certainty for lack of sufficient data. However, putting together

• police reports suggesting that Hannah resisted; and
• police and Thai forensic scientist reports that David resisted; and
• evidence that David had several wounds and was in and out of the water, so he was not subdued by a single surprise blow from behind

I believe there would be noise easily audible 50 yards away at night, but no one has come forward to say they heard anything. Adding to this

• not only Hannah, but David was found almost naked (one sock left on)

I am inclined to the notion that the crime scene was clumsily staged, and the rape and murders may well have taken place elsewhere. I admit I am speculating, but the official story seems so improbable that it is reasonable to look for alternatives.

No doubt the CCTV recordings that would have given the best indication of where Hannah and David went just before their deaths have already been "accidentally" erased or "withheld for privacy reasons". We shall need reliable witness reports if we are going to eventually fathom what really transpired. I am not optimistic, but hope enough doubts can be raised to prevent a gross miscarriage of justice.

[JLCrab]

Mr. Occam might say: Burmese, 2 persons involved -- other scenarios, a cast of tens if not hundreds in complicity, millions of dollars in payoffs with not one bona fide instance of someone being paid off, evidence destroyed or fabricated, evidence of persons being not where they were and not being where they were, etc.

Edited December 30, 2014 by JLCrab

[BritTim]

Mr. Occam might say: Burmese, 2 persons involved -- other scenarios, a cast of tens if not hundreds in complicity, millions of dollars in payoffs with not one bona fide instance of someone being paid off, evidence destroyed or fabricated, evidence of persons being not where they were and not being where they were, etc.

If they had arrested a 90-year-old great-grandmother and said she did it, your argument would be even stronger.

[aimbc]

A a matter of fact, yes, I know the spot, I've been there once before. But you don't have to take my word for it, look at the pictures of the crime scene, in between large boulders.

You went to the place. Good for You. But do you have the evidence that proof it happened as suggested by the rtp. You have no solid evidence just hearsay by the police. Are you noticing the fantasy here. And your believe in the speculation that the police is telling the truth.

The evidence collected by the police will be presented in court where it will be examined and contested by the defense.

I have the feeling that you have a bruised ego and are trying desperately to paint me with the "you are speculating too!" brush.

"Brush"? a definite sign of someone who is in the corner once again. Not being to back up the statement.

You pretty much rebut everyone statement going against the police, so I think you have the ego thing to protect more than anyone on this forum.

Fact is fact, can't avoid it.

[AleG]

Isolated it is not, take a look how close the bungalows are in the pic and lets not forget this was quite a struggle before death occurred with Hannah and David being dragged and fighting back.

Let not also forget that at the exact same spot the night before the murders 4 Thai guys also mugged 2 UK girls, same spot on the same beach http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

"lets not forget this was quite a struggle before death occurred with Hannah and David being dragged and fighting back."

Actually, let's not forget that is just speculation based on cherry-picking from conflicting third hand reports.

Actually, let's not forget that some posters (i.e. AleG) can't distinguish between facts and fantasy as it was clearly the RTP itself that confirmed there must have been a intense struggle before he died, I wonder what's the pay Aleg? Here is juts one of RTP quotes, hint Google.com

"Maj Gen Pornchai Suteerakune, Thailand’s chief police forensics officer, told reporters that in addition to the severe wounds found on Mr Miller’s head, the examination had found an injury on his hand, indicating that a struggle may have taken place"

Yes, indeed, now let me help you with reading comprehension:

"the examination had found an injury on his hand, indicating that a struggle may have taken place"

"lets not forget this was quite a struggle before death"

Do you notice the difference? I underlined it in case you didn't, "may have..." is speculation, "this was..." is a statement of fact.

If you couldn't sort that out, what hope do you have of cracking a murder case?

[AleG]

Ally g is back for the comedy hour.. The boys were tested first time around. There is a picture of one of them in the queue. Now tell us that picture was fake.

Then tell us how the cctv footage is all 100% real and there is no chance it could have been changed.

Then tell us with all this information why the trail has been put back 6 months, I don't think it was done to help the Burmese lads.

You claimed the Burmese men were cleared early in the investigation, don't bother with bluster, show the proof of your statement.

You won't because you can't.

You have already been proven wrong with the motives for the trial postponement.

[JLCrab]

Mr. Occam might say: Burmese, 2 persons involved -- other scenarios, a cast of tens if not hundreds in complicity, millions of dollars in payoffs with not one bona fide instance of someone being paid off, evidence destroyed or fabricated, evidence of persons being not where they were and not being where they were, etc.

If they had arrested a 90-year-old great-grandmother and said she did it, your argument would be even stronger.

I wasn't the one who dragged William of Ockham into it.

[AleG]

Mr. Occam might say: Burmese, 2 persons involved -- other scenarios, a cast of tens if not hundreds in complicity, millions of dollars in payoffs with not one bona fide instance of someone being paid off, evidence destroyed or fabricated, evidence of persons being not where they were and not being where they were, etc.

Precisely.

The problem is though, that the people that push elaborate theories more fit for a bad novel actually do cause harm.

I remember a talk by a US police detective I once saw, it was about "psychic detectives"; one of the things he said was that they get the calls from those loons and they do indeed investigate their "leads" because you never now if, the example he was giving, the person making the call it's just insane and interprets what he/she actually saw as psychic vision.

So they go down the rabbit hole and waste a lot of time that could had been spent doing actual detective work to solve the case.

In fact, during the Koh Tao case the police directly blamed online speculation with making their work more difficult, who knows if some of the suspects that are now the center of some people's pet theories were not placed in the suspect list by someone seeing a blurry CCTV frame and going, "yeah, that's the guy!".

[boomerangutang]

You wanna bring in Occam's Razor? Ok, I'll play along (I used to get in trouble for playing with sharp implements).

The bludgeoning of Hannah was a crime of passion coupled with extreme vindictiveness. Did two little drunk guys singing songs have that passion? No.

Would the scion of a rich headman who essentially owns a large chunk of the island have such passion? Yes. He is Thai. Thais are very thin-skinned and get offended very easily. When offended, they fly in to a no-holds-barred rage. If you have never seen it, then you've never really been to Thailand. What would seriously offend the spoiled young scion of the Headman? Any number of things, not least having his sexual advances rebuffed, perhaps with a personal slur or two thrown in.

Have you ever seen a Thai wanna-be tough guy fielding the f-word? ....or given the finger? A farang or a Burmese guy might just respond in kind, and that's it. But a Thai will go ballistically livid, and likely grab a weapon and compel every young Thai guy in shouting distance to join in bashing the person who said the f-word or gave him the finger.

Occam's Razor indicates the most likely perpetrators were drunk lustful Thai men, who have likely seduced many young drunk, pretty (maybe date-rape drug addled) farang chicks - right at that same beach. They get their sights on a particularly blonde (Thai men go apeshit over blond chicks), cute gal, ....then get rebuffed. A farang rescuer shows up, ....and the rest is Ko Tao history. It fits hand-in-glove with Occam's Razor.

Edited December 30, 2014 by boomerangutang

[catsanddogs]

Ally g is back for the comedy hour.. The boys were tested first time around. There is a picture of one of them in the queue. Now tell us that picture was fake.

Then tell us how the cctv footage is all 100% real and there is no chance it could have been changed.

Then tell us with all this information why the trail has been put back 6 months, I don't think it was done to help the Burmese lads.

You claimed the Burmese men were cleared early in the investigation, don't bother with bluster, show the proof of your statement.

You won't because you can't.

You have already been proven wrong with the motives for the trial postponement.

Show us proof that they weren't. Show us the proof that they were under suspicion after all those queued up (including the Burmese now in prison) to take tests. Show us the media coverage where the RTP thought they had their men by proof of a DNA match before they held them in the 'unsafe' room with the pancake seller. I don't normally bothering replying to posters who appear soulless in their rhetorical ramblings. But I felt sorry for you because it must be horribly lonely to be in such a minority sometimes.

[thailandchilli]

Isolated it is not, take a look how close the bungalows are in the pic and lets not forget this was quite a struggle before death occurred with Hannah and David being dragged and fighting back.

Let not also forget that at the exact same spot the night before the murders 4 Thai guys also mugged 2 UK girls, same spot on the same beach http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

"lets not forget this was quite a struggle before death occurred with Hannah and David being dragged and fighting back."

Actually, let's not forget that is just speculation based on cherry-picking from conflicting third hand reports.

Actually, let's not forget that some posters (i.e. AleG) can't distinguish between facts and fantasy as it was clearly the RTP itself that confirmed there must have been a intense struggle before he died, I wonder what's the pay Aleg? Here is juts one of RTP quotes, hint Google.com

"Maj Gen Pornchai Suteerakune, Thailand’s chief police forensics officer, told reporters that in addition to the severe wounds found on Mr Miller’s head, the examination had found an injury on his hand, indicating that a struggle may have taken place"

Yes, indeed, now let me help you with reading comprehension:

"the examination had found an injury on his hand, indicating that a struggle may have taken place"

"lets not forget this was quite a struggle before death"

Do you notice the difference? I underlined it in case you didn't, "may have..." is speculation, "this was..." is a statement of fact.

If you couldn't sort that out, what hope do you have of cracking a murder case?

No maybe about it according to this RTP, did you notice the difference, I've underlined it in case you didn't :

Witheridge, meanwhile, was dragged away from the first attack spot, said the same police officer.

The officer said Witheridge did manage to run for some distance but was hit repeatedly in the face with a hoe which suggested whoever attacked her could have held a personal grudge against her. https://www.dvb.no/n...a-myanmar/44236

[BritTim]

Mr. Occam might say: Burmese, 2 persons involved -- other scenarios, a cast of tens if not hundreds in complicity, millions of dollars in payoffs with not one bona fide instance of someone being paid off, evidence destroyed or fabricated, evidence of persons being not where they were and not being where they were, etc.

It is worth mentioning that far more egregious examples of blanket intimidation and bribery to escape murder charges are far from unknown in Thailand.

For instance, there is the famous case of the son (call him D) of a prominent politician shooting a policeman in the middle of a large Bangkok discotheque (with the lights turned up and many viewing the altercation leading up to the shooting. D fled to an army base where he was protected against police trying to arrest him. After a couple of days, he was able to flee abroad. Over a year later, he was escorted back to Thailand by his father and given bail. By this time, most of the eyewitnesses originally willing to positively identify D as the shooter had changed their mind. D was acquitted on the basis of insufficient evidence.

This above example took place in Bangkok with many of the eyewitnesses being rich kids, not on a mafia infested island where most potential witnesses are easily silenced (one way or another) and where the few local policemen are part of the criminal infrastructure.

[JLCrab]

You wanna bring in Occam's Razor? Ok, I'll play along (I used to get in trouble for playing with sharp implements).

The bludgeoning of Hannah was a crime of passion coupled with extreme vindictiveness. Did two little drunk guys singing songs have that passion? No.

Would the scion of a rich headman who essentially owns a large chunk of the island have such passion? Yes. He is Thai. Thais are very thin-skinned and get offended very easily. When offended, they fly in to a no-holds-barred rage. If you have never seen it, then you've never really been to Thailand. What would seriously offend the spoiled young scion of the Headman? Any number of things, not least having his sexual advances rebuffed, perhaps with a personal slur or two thrown in.

Have you ever seen a Thai wanna-be tough guy fielding the f-word? ....or given the finger? A farang or a Burmese guy might just respond in kind, and that's it. But a Thai will go ballistically livid, and likely grab a weapon and compel every young Thai guy in shouting distance to join in bashing the person who said the f-word or gave him the finger.

Occam's Razor indicates the most likely perpetrators were drunk lustful Thai men, who have likely seduced many young drunk, pretty (maybe date-rape drug addled) farang chicks - right at that same beach. They get their sights on a particularly blonde (Thai men go apeshit over blond chicks), cute gal, ....then get rebuffed. A farang rescuer shows up, ....and the rest is Ko Tao history. It fits hand-in-glove with Occam's Razor.

Ockham's Razor very succinctly says given any two explanations for a natural phenomenon, the simpler explanation is the more likely -- but not certain -- explanation. That you needed 4 paragraphs to explain it means it is not the more likely though still possible.

[boomerangutang]

Mr. Occam might say: Burmese, 2 persons involved -- other scenarios, a cast of tens if not hundreds in complicity, millions of dollars in payoffs with not one bona fide instance of someone being paid off, evidence destroyed or fabricated, evidence of persons being not where they were and not being where they were, etc.

Precisely.

The problem is though, that the people that push elaborate theories more fit for a bad novel actually do cause harm.

I remember a talk by a US police detective I once saw, it was about "psychic detectives"; one of the things he said was that they get the calls from those loons and they do indeed investigate their "leads" because you never now if, the example he was giving, the person making the call it's just insane and interprets what he/she actually saw as psychic vision.

So they go down the rabbit hole and waste a lot of time that could had been spent doing actual detective work to solve the case.

In fact, during the Koh Tao case the police directly blamed online speculation with making their work more difficult, who knows if some of the suspects that are now the center of some people's pet theories were not placed in the suspect list by someone seeing a blurry CCTV frame and going, "yeah, that's the guy!".

I also don't give any credence to 'psychic' detective leads.

If Thai police said online media speculation made their work more difficult, then I don't feel sorry for the cops. Granted, some of the online stuff is dross, but that's expected. More importantly, at least several online photos and revelations could actually aid in finding the real culprits. If Thai cops were more like American detectives, they might even encourage public input, as that sort of input has contributed to solving hundreds of serious crimes in the US (America's Most Wanted, is just one example of that).

No, the real reason Thai officials (and ThaiVisa's Gang of 4) don't like social media input, is because some of the social media input sheds light on those who they deem should be shielded from scrutiny. I don't need to articulate who those men (who should be prime suspects) are, as you already know.

If social media was putting forth data which implicated the Burmese, then Thai officials, and the Gang of 4 would be fine with that.

[ttthailand]

So if someone comes forward with information it can not be used in court because they are not already on the witness list ? Sounds like a very one sided case if you ask me.... The more they do to screw up these two guys the more I think they are truly innocent.

[boomerangutang]

You wanna bring in Occam's Razor? Ok, I'll play along (I used to get in trouble for playing with sharp implements).

The bludgeoning of Hannah was a crime of passion coupled with extreme vindictiveness. Did two little drunk guys singing songs have that passion? No.

Would the scion of a rich headman who essentially owns a large chunk of the island have such passion? Yes. He is Thai. Thais are very thin-skinned and get offended very easily. When offended, they fly in to a no-holds-barred rage. If you have never seen it, then you've never really been to Thailand. What would seriously offend the spoiled young scion of the Headman? Any number of things, not least having his sexual advances rebuffed, perhaps with a personal slur or two thrown in.

Have you ever seen a Thai wanna-be tough guy fielding the f-word? ....or given the finger? A farang or a Burmese guy might just respond in kind, and that's it. But a Thai will go ballistically livid, and likely grab a weapon and compel every young Thai guy in shouting distance to join in bashing the person who said the f-word or gave him the finger.

Occam's Razor indicates the most likely perpetrators were drunk lustful Thai men, who have likely seduced many young drunk, pretty (maybe date-rape drug addled) farang chicks - right at that same beach. They get their sights on a particularly blonde (Thai men go apeshit over blond chicks), cute gal, ....then get rebuffed. A farang rescuer shows up, ....and the rest is Ko Tao history. It fits hand-in-glove with Occam's Razor.

Ockham's Razor very succinctly says given any two explanations for a natural phenomenon, the simpler explanation is the more likely -- but not certain -- explanation. That you needed 4 paragraphs to explain it means it is not the more likely though still possible.

Ok. But if I described the Burmese involvement the way Thai officials want to describe the crime, it would take 8 paragraphs. ha ha ha.

Actually, a simpler explanation would be: 'a giant wave came forth and dropped two big stones on David and Hanna.'

There, one short sentence.

Many scientists have adopted or reinvented Occam's Razor, as in Leibniz's "identity of observables" and Isaac Newton stated the rule: "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances."

The most useful statement of the principle for scientists is

"when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better."

source:

[berybert]

Ally g is back for the comedy hour.. The boys were tested first time around. There is a picture of one of them in the queue. Now tell us that picture was fake.

Then tell us how the cctv footage is all 100% real and there is no chance it could have been changed.

Then tell us with all this information why the trail has been put back 6 months, I don't think it was done to help the Burmese lads.

You claimed the Burmese men were cleared early in the investigation, don't bother with bluster, show the proof of your statement.

You won't because you can't.

You have already been proven wrong with the motives for the trial postponement.

I have no need to prove anything to you.

Who proved me wrong about the trial postponement ? Unlike you I am able to think outside the box.

You carry on being spoon fed.

By the way bringing psychic detectives into your argument (Which has nothing to do with this case) And claiming the internet has interfered with the case makes you look desperate.

Edited December 30, 2014 by berybert

[balo]

Given the information that Hannah's and David's parents have the information contained in this older article, it is even more bizarre to read that they announced being satifsfied with the investigation done bt the RTP: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11102860/Two-brothers-questioned-over-backpacker-murders-in-Thailand.html

Here, again, mention of wounds on David's hands, indicating a struglle and a fight. To imply that the two Burmse dwarfs escaped a fight with a man of David's stature without a single scratch is just insane.

One who had injuries at about the same time was:

Sean is a key witness!!!!

...while aother person (Nomsod) bought a full week in absence what is ample time to heal minor scratches, bruises and cuts.

Btw. this is the same trick intoxicated Thai drivers use when killing someone in an accident. Run away first and turn yourself in at the nearest police station one or two days after, when sober.

The RTP and mafia apologists will find it very hard to explain why the mafia brat was hiding for a full week. It is one of the hundreds of facts they can't make go away.

You talk like he was on the island, a full week in absence from what ?

We have no witnesses that can confirm he was on the island. According to your theories that is because they are too afraid to speak .

But we do have cctv footage of him in UNI and teachers that can confirm he attended the class. No bruises to heal , no cuts to heal , no minor scratches, its all in your imagination.

[JLCrab]

You wanna bring in Occam's Razor? Ok, I'll play along (I used to get in trouble for playing with sharp implements).

The bludgeoning of Hannah was a crime of passion coupled with extreme vindictiveness. Did two little drunk guys singing songs have that passion? No.

Would the scion of a rich headman who essentially owns a large chunk of the island have such passion? Yes. He is Thai. Thais are very thin-skinned and get offended very easily. When offended, they fly in to a no-holds-barred rage. If you have never seen it, then you've never really been to Thailand. What would seriously offend the spoiled young scion of the Headman? Any number of things, not least having his sexual advances rebuffed, perhaps with a personal slur or two thrown in.

Have you ever seen a Thai wanna-be tough guy fielding the f-word? ....or given the finger? A farang or a Burmese guy might just respond in kind, and that's it. But a Thai will go ballistically livid, and likely grab a weapon and compel every young Thai guy in shouting distance to join in bashing the person who said the f-word or gave him the finger.

Occam's Razor indicates the most likely perpetrators were drunk lustful Thai men, who have likely seduced many young drunk, pretty (maybe date-rape drug addled) farang chicks - right at that same beach. They get their sights on a particularly blonde (Thai men go apeshit over blond chicks), cute gal, ....then get rebuffed. A farang rescuer shows up, ....and the rest is Ko Tao history. It fits hand-in-glove with Occam's Razor.

Ockham's Razor very succinctly says given any two explanations for a natural phenomenon, the simpler explanation is the more likely -- but not certain -- explanation. That you needed 4 paragraphs to explain it means it is not the more likely though still possible.

Ok. But if I described the Burmese involvement the way Thai officials want to describe the crime, it would take 8 paragraphs. ha ha ha.

Actually, a simpler explanation would be: 'a giant wave came forth and dropped two big stones on David and Hanna.'

There, one short sentence.

Many scientists have adopted or reinvented Occam's Razor, as in Leibniz's "identity of observables" and Isaac Newton stated the rule: "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances."

The most useful statement of the principle for scientists is

"when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better."

source:

The simple explanation is that the 2 Burmese -- if indeed guilty -- acted alone both during and following the crime. Your explanation involves a convoluted follow-up involving persons sufficient to film the battle scenes in Spartacus (1960 version)

[mcm991]

Given the information that Hannah's and David's parents have the information contained in this older article, it is even more bizarre to read that they announced being satifsfied with the investigation done bt the RTP: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11102860/Two-brothers-questioned-over-backpacker-murders-in-Thailand.html

Here, again, mention of wounds on David's hands, indicating a struglle and a fight. To imply that the two Burmse dwarfs escaped a fight with a man of David's stature without a single scratch is just insane.

One who had injuries at about the same time was:

Sean is a key witness!!!!

...while aother person (Nomsod) bought a full week in absence what is ample time to heal minor scratches, bruises and cuts.

Btw. this is the same trick intoxicated Thai drivers use when killing someone in an accident. Run away first and turn yourself in at the nearest police station one or two days after, when sober.

The RTP and mafia apologists will find it very hard to explain why the mafia brat was hiding for a full week. It is one of the hundreds of facts they can't make go away.

You talk like he was on the island, a full week in absence from what ?

We have no witnesses that can confirm he was on the island. According to your theories that is because they are too afraid to speak .

But we do have cctv footage of him in UNI and teachers that can confirm he attended the class. No bruises to heal , no cuts to heal , no minor scratches, its all in your imagination.

Balo, I'll assume from your contant defence of Nomsod that you are a close friend of his.

Other issues of this case seem unimportant to you.

Your loyalty in commendable ....... but I wonder if you could ask him for his take on this all ... and post it for us all to see.

So many inconsistancies and doubts ........ all point fingers directly at him and his family.

I for one would like to hear his explanation other than what has been previously said. So many loose ends that need clarification.

[jimmybkk]

I agree we should examine others, but one weak link would be him. As he claims to be in Bangkok during the horrific night. And would be a motivation for his dad to protect him. And the only evidence is the really bad video. But it does appear to be him. Also he was prime suspect in the beginning and evaded questioning.

What we need are witness saying that they saw him there on the island. Will they talk? That's another matter. Or pictures of him, but again will they risk their lives to testify against them. I am sure that is what the defense may have in possession. It will make the entire investigation look weak and smell of a set up.

Trying to profile these guys by looking at past crime, nearly impossible. The police can spin their own story. But to call them out on a possible cover is hard to dance around.

Sorry to disagree but I think that is the last thing that anyone should be seeking if they are trying to look after the best interests of the 2 Burmese lads. IMO there is a slim chance of a not guilty verdict if the defense are able to completely destroy the prosecution's case piece by piece in court and if no barriers are placed in the way of a not guilty verdict. The case would be unsolved, no-one would be under suspicion and the police would supposedly still be on the lookout for the murderer(s). Is that not the primary goal? To try to prevent a miscarriage of justice that would result in the death penalty for 2 young Burmese lads?

Start bringing persons of influence and/or their kin into the picture and it is a different story altogether. These are powerful people, and no matter how much you may dislike it you have to accept it. The last person who lost sight of that fact and started pointing fingers in the wrong direction was a very senior police officer and he got moved on quick smart, and in a hurry. Whether he was promoted is open to debate, it's the timing that is relevant here, and sure enough the fingers stopped pointing after that.

The fact is that regardless of whether they were involved or not, there ain't no untouchable gonna be standing trial for these murders, and IMO any "proof" of their involvement is not good news for the B2. You don't want El Jefe to get p1ssed off, and the judge needs the not guilty door to be right next to the guilty door, with nothing impeding his exit through that door and with no danger of upsetting anyone, implicating anyone nor embarrassing anyone if that's the door he walks through. Do not block that door with a whole load of evidence about the possible involvement of an influential person's kin.

When the judge asked that slightly strange question to the accused: "If you are innocent, who do you think is guilty?" (or words to that effect) I personally believe that he was doing a quick "what if" test, and that may be a good sign.

[stephen terry]

Oh, for God's sake it is crystal clear that the two Burmese are innocent. The island is like any Thai village. Everyone knows what's going on. If the 2B were anyway involved they would have been marched into the police command the following morning, with CCTV footage from the AC bar that has been withheld. No local enterprise wants to lose reputation, image or income -they certainly would not protect Burmese migrant workers.

Just face it, local Thai thugs are being protected. It's the only rational answer.

Edited December 30, 2014 by stephen terry